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View Full Version : Some Help From the Physics/Flight Dynamics Gurus?



VF2_Tim
05-25-2008, 06:37 PM
Here's the situation:

Two identical planes. Trailer is gaining in a straight and level pursuit. Just before trigger, plane being chased rolls over and pulls for the deck. Trailer wants to build his advantage so he pulls it up nice and smooth into an approx 40 to 50 degree full power climb. When the trailers air speed slows to 120 he drops full flaps and takes it all the way to the top.

To my pea-sized brain (with absolutely no physics training of any kind) this is a move by the trailer that should attain an altitude that the diving plane could not possibly match.

However, if that diving plane is AI he will come up and top out above the trailing plane.

This seems unnatural to me.

Yes, the diving plane will gain alot of momentum in the dive but the G fource to 180 into a vertical climb should negate a huge amount of that dive speed.

To my common sense it would be impossible for the plane that evaded down to pull up and get above the trailer.

I can anticipate that some responses will be of this flavor: "It all depends on how the trailer makes his climb." I agree if the trailer jerks the stick and climbs too steep or too shallow this could affect the altitude. But to my sensibilities even a less-than-ideal ascent should be more than enough to grab a huge altitude advantage.

How far off base am I?

DKoor
05-25-2008, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by VF2_Tim:
However, if that diving plane is AI he will come up and top out above the trailing plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I think if you google about Ai (precisely this issue), that you'll find enormous amount of posts, perhaps even on this very page... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Long story short.

Ai doesn't use same physics in game as humans do, that's why they can do stuff we can't.
And that is why game is quite crippled offline because employing exact historical air warfare tactics isn't quite possible.
For instance you can have a +950kph TAS Bf-109K AI on deck or +900kph TAS diving A6M2 AI http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

JSG72
05-25-2008, 06:44 PM
How far off base am I?

Spot on! If your intensions are to create, another HeeHaw arguament, about HeeHaw?

DKoor
05-25-2008, 06:45 PM
BTW if you like check out track page in my sig you'll find specific AI tracks and a few observations about them, all in one ZIP http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

VF2_Tim
05-25-2008, 09:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Oops.

Is there anything more pathetic than someone who is pissed off AND late about it?

Thanks for the gentle kick in the gluts!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
05-25-2008, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by VF2_Tim:
Here's the situation:

Two identical planes. Trailer is gaining in a straight and level pursuit. Just before trigger, plane being chased rolls over and pulls for the deck. Trailer wants to build his advantage so he pulls it up nice and smooth into an approx 40 to 50 degree full power climb. When the trailers air speed slows to 120 he drops full flaps and takes it all the way to the top.

Okay just for fun let's assume the plane is not some early war plane with a top speed under 300mph
and that when you say 120 you mean 120mph.

120mph is just under 200kph. However long the player spent flying under best climb speed, does
that mean the AI has to as well?

Does the AI have to climb at an unsustainable angle, bleed off his speed and use flaps just
because the player wasted time and E doing so?

Mid-war on, to get slower than 200mph is a 'please shoot me' error.

Just for fun mind you.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2008, 11:42 PM
Get online, much better than flying vs the AI.

Tully__
05-26-2008, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF2_Tim:
Here's the situation:

Two identical planes. Trailer is gaining in a straight and level pursuit. Just before trigger, plane being chased rolls over and pulls for the deck. Trailer wants to build his advantage so he pulls it up nice and smooth into an approx 40 to 50 degree full power climb. When the trailers air speed slows to 120 he drops full flaps and takes it all the way to the top.

Okay just for fun let's assume the plane is not some early war plane with a top speed under 300mph
and that when you say 120 you mean 120mph.

120mph is just under 200kph. However long the player spent flying under best climb speed, does
that mean the AI has to as well?

Does the AI have to climb at an unsustainable angle, bleed off his speed and use flaps just
because the player wasted time and E doing so?

Mid-war on, to get slower than 200mph is a 'please shoot me' error.

Just for fun mind you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Plane in trail made a mortal error by waiting until 120 to go "over the top". He should have put his nose down to a reasonable angle to maintain speed when he had slowed to best climb speed at the absolute slowest.

Aaron_GT
05-26-2008, 04:42 AM
Just for reference the best climb speed of most of the single engined monoplane prop planes in the game is in the region of 150 to 180 mph indicated, more or less.

Do we have a table anywhere of the best climb speeds for the aircraft in IL2? Many are noted in the relevant manuals. I have a fair few PDFs, but probably only enough to cover 5% of those in IL2 given the number of different subtypes and engine types. (Plus in some IL2 planes you can climb at ahistorical levels of boost for long periods).

M_Gunz
05-26-2008, 05:02 AM
If the planes are going slow enough when the split happens, the one diving may be picking up
*to* good acceleration speed while the one climbing may be running itself deep into trouble.

But none of that is given nor what planes as if all this doesn't matter. As if one tactic should
fit all planes, alts and speeds as long as it's plane X vs plane X.

Lucky thing you don't need guru's as called for, just players with more experience!