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x__CRASH__x
04-12-2005, 01:03 AM
Look at the P-40B and C from external views. (You can do the same with the Tomahawks) Switch back and forth between the two. Now jump in the C. See the reticle you can see from the external view? Good. Now, jump into the B. See the reticle? Yes. Look at your external view. See the reticle? No.

The B didn't have a mirrored reticle like the C. Yet it has one in this game right now. The external difference is there. The internal difference is not.

I just thought this mistake should be brought to the attention of whoever may care and want to do something about it for the next patch.

x__CRASH__x
04-12-2005, 01:03 AM
Look at the P-40B and C from external views. (You can do the same with the Tomahawks) Switch back and forth between the two. Now jump in the C. See the reticle you can see from the external view? Good. Now, jump into the B. See the reticle? Yes. Look at your external view. See the reticle? No.

The B didn't have a mirrored reticle like the C. Yet it has one in this game right now. The external difference is there. The internal difference is not.

I just thought this mistake should be brought to the attention of whoever may care and want to do something about it for the next patch.

PlaneEater
04-12-2005, 01:41 AM
This has already been brought to Oleg's attention, back during the development of PF.

You may fix it yourself it you close your eyes and think hard enough. If that doesn't work, just try harder. It'll work eventually.

SkyChimp
04-13-2005, 07:19 PM
There is a modeling error in the P-40B and C. These planes had straight pitot tubes. Export Kittyhawks had the angled pitot tubes.

So, the Kittyhawks are right, the P-40B and C are wrong.

Chuck_Older
04-15-2005, 05:18 PM
A funny thing about the early P-40s and Hawks

I was looking through a reference book i have. Lots of pics, not much real reference other than photos.

The AVG's H-81s are commonly said to never have had an internal gunsight, just the ring and post.

Well, I have that book here, that shows RT Smith in an AVG Hawk, looking over his right shoulder and smiling broadly at the photographer.

In front of him is clearly the type of gunsight the P-40C features in this sim. And it's just as clearly a H-81 that he's sitting in.

Anyone have any info on this?

PlaneEater
04-15-2005, 07:13 PM
Which book, Chuck?

I probably have a copy myself, I'll take a look.

glarsso
04-16-2005, 02:12 AM
Can it be page 62, picture 6 in Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 41, American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings by Terill Clemens?
Same pic on back cover also...

HotelBushranger
04-16-2005, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well, I have that book here, that shows RT Smith in an AVG Hawk, looking over his right shoulder and smiling broadly at the photographer.

In front of him is clearly the type of gunsight the P-40C features in this sim. And it's just as clearly a H-81 that he's sitting in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure it was a P-40C? I am very sure they flew the B, which has been verified by an AVG pilot, the difference being the C model carried fuselage fuel tanks and bombs.

glarsso
04-16-2005, 03:12 AM
Page 72 in Eagle Files#4, Tigers Over China, has a good picture of R.T.Smith in AC #44, allegedly a Hawk 81-A2, with reflectot sight.
A set of three pictures on P.68 & 69 supports this info.
Page 65 has another of #77 with reflectorsight visible.
Also AC#6 of Flight Leader John Dean, P-8187, on P.14-15 have this sight.
Hope it can be of any help.

Chuck_Older
04-16-2005, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HotelBushranger:

Are you sure it was a P-40C? I am very sure they flew the B, which has been verified by an AVG pilot, the difference being the C model carried fuselage fuel tanks and bombs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please, re-read my post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I say the P-40C I mention is in the sim, not that it is the aircraft the AVG flew. I also mention that it is the gunsight from the P-40C in this simulation that I am seeing

The AVG flew the export variant of the P-40, which carried the Curtiss designation Hawk 81. The US Army called them P-40s, and probably all US Servicemen knew them as P-40s and not Hawks. The pilot you mention was almost certainly Erik Shilling, who was a very good source of info, however, Curtiss reps from the time would say that the planes he flew weren't P-40Bs, they were Hawk 81A-2s, and even that isn't quite correct due to the possibilty of them being Tomahawk IIs with different wings. But regardless, I didn't say that the AVG flew P-40Cs, you have mis-read my post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The AVG Hawks had no external fuel stores to my knowledge, that alone eliminates the P-40C as a possibility.

The aircraft in question, the one in which I see RT Smith sitting in, is without a shadow of a doubt a Hawk 81. It's at Kunming, in early '42. He sits in 3rd Squadron's 'White 40', which must be a 2nd Squadron machine seconded to 3rd Squadron, since the number is so low. His right elbow rests on the canopy track as he leans to the right and turns his head towards the camera. If he turned his head full forward, his forehead would bounce off the same sight that I see in the P-40C in this simulation. The aircraft also has the ring and post sight.

The nose of the aircraft is clearly visible; it is not a Hawk 87, which came into use by Curtiss as the Curtiss designation for the Army's P-40D, the plane Smith is in is certainly a Hawk 81

The book I am looking at is called Warbirds- American Legends of World War II by Jeffery Ethell. The RT Smith pic is on page 122-123. page 122 also has a pic of the AVG at Kunming. Smith and others took lots of photos, but they seem hard to find. ISBN 0-681-19898-2. Lots of photos I haven't seen anywhere else, all in full color

Chuck_Older
04-16-2005, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by glarsso:
Page 72 in Eagle Files#4, Tigers Over China, has a good picture of R.T.Smith in AC #44, allegedly a Hawk 81-A2, with reflectot sight.
A set of three pictures on P.68 & 69 supports this info.
Page 65 has another of #77 with reflectorsight visible.
Also AC#6 of Flight Leader John Dean, P-8187, on P.14-15 have this sight.
Hope it can be of any help. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you give me an ISBN number? I'd like to get that book http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

glarsso
04-16-2005, 08:40 AM
Sure, ISBN 0-9660706-7-4. You can find the publisher on www.eagle-editions.com (http://www.eagle-editions.com) under "EagleFiles". Great book with plenty of pictures, some in color,and color profiles of A.V.G. planes.

ElAurens
04-16-2005, 01:42 PM
I just wish the Hawk 81-A2s we fly in the sim had the same power output as the actual ones flown by the AVG.

Willey
04-16-2005, 03:45 PM
I'd rather know the differences between:

P-40B - Hawk-81A-2 - Tomahawk IIA
P-40C - Tomahawk IIB

The C/IIB at least have the option to carry external stuff, but what's the diff between both of them and the other 3?

CAPT_COTTON
04-16-2005, 04:26 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

If i can get that sight off the crashed plane to fit sir you will be back in the air and do a lot better SIR!

Wow those gun pods from that german plane fitnix and these folker 21s now have a punch to them

Stupid lend lease plans americans sent us have no cannons? No problem SIR!

pilots flew the planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ground support kept them up there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

The only differnts i see in the tomahawk and the warhawk are tom is hard to get off ground loves ground loops?????and the warhawk just loves going straight even in air.

3.JG51_BigBear
04-17-2005, 11:01 AM
Could the flying tigers have been getting equipment from the Alison and Curtiss reps. I know a lot of them were in the area pushing product on China and the Brits and monitoring how well their equipment was holding up in the field. Is it possible they passed some gunsights along when no one was looking. Even though it was an export model I'm sure it had all the mounting points and wiring for a gunsight and even if it didn't it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to splice some wires behind the instrument panel to get power to the thing.

glarsso
04-17-2005, 12:27 PM
Regarding the headline, "P-40B and C difference"; Many seem to have tried to explain it in books and magasines. Many are more educated on the subject than ─? am, but I try to give a layman's summary from different sources of information.
Starting with my Source A, American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings by Terill Clemens, Osprey AC of the Aces No 41 (see sources at the end)Quote:
"The AVG's Tomahawks were neither true P-40Bs nor P-40Cs, although AVG personell themselves used both designations in everyday communications. Weight and performance figures were probably close to those typically given for the P-40 B model however.─?ndeed when these aeroplanes were taken over by the Army Air Forces in July 1942, many were stencilled with P-40B data blocks". The same source also claim the AVG machines were certainly not P-40 C as they had no systems for a belly tank, but also many other structural differences.
This info leads to separating B from C question, Tomahawk IIA and IIB etc

British US Export Comment

Tomahawk I P40 H81-A-1

Tomahawk II Not official but
used for modified
AC in UK(Ref B)
Tomahawk IIA P40B H81-A-2 Normal denomination
H81-A-3 100 AC for AVG
(Curtiss AVG fix on paper)
Tomahawk IIB P40C H81-B Last 193 of 524 1:st
order ACs built.

The above didn't get right in the forum version. ─?f you copy and paste to a Word document and separate British US Export and comments as four headlines and then tab the text text into place.
British AC are Tomahawks
US AC are P40
Export AC are H81-something
Comments are "comments" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

─? have cross checked the above between several sources and come to the conclus─▒on that the above might be "The truth". Some sources differ between each other.

Differences? A bit diverging info, but ─? have found that at least officially they had the same engine ; Allison V1710-33 of 1090 hp.
I have read in this net forum that some claim the AVG AC engines had higher performance compared with stock P40B.Found no info though.

Due to higher max weight the later P-40C had performance decreesed relative earlier AC(RefE)
Can this be reason for the claim AVG AC performed better? For sure climb rate was affected by weight increase.

Tomahawk IIA/P-40B had compared to MkI AC; Self sealing tanks, armour plating for pilot, Bullet proof windscreen. (Ref E and other)

Mk IIA in the UK had British radios but later IIB came with US radio,US oxygen system and of course the big difference with the belly drop tank provision. (Ref E.)
AVG AC were shipped without radio.(Ref A.) Locally radios were installed; RCA7-H.(Ref A.)

Guns? The initial H81-A-1 for France were built without guns but had provision for 4 x 7.5 mm in the wings (2+2)
In UK they got 4x0.303 (7.7mm) Brownings.(RefE)
H81-A-2, US std, had 4x0.30 cal(7.62mm)

AVG AC arrived without wing guns and 1:st Sq got 7.92mm guns of uncertain origin, as the locally sourced Browning 0.30 cal only sufficed for 2 squadrons, 2:nd and 3:rd.(Ref A)

Sights? AVG AC arrived with bead and post sight only. Locally N-3A optical sights were aquired and adopted to fit. A very interesting description of this process in Ref A!(Picture on page 21 clearly show the sight.)
French batch were to have locally installed French sights.

More can be said on differences but it gets into nuts and bolts then......

─?t was interesting though to find out that the AVG AC were originally from a French order, taken over by Britain after the French armistice with Germany and later allotted to AVG in China.
Apparently some AVG AC arriving consequently had the French reversed action throttle controls! Others had the standard ones. Acouple of AC had no pilot armour either and had to be retro fitted(Ref A)
In a way it makes sense, as the adaptations in Curtiss production took time and first compliant AC flew on June 6 1940 and the armistice was on June 22:nd. Production was running though, since the British took over the contract(Ref D) Probably the remaining AC got US alt UK specifications at some point, but Fr. std AC obviously were completed for AVG.
Might be that changes were implemented during running production of a batch during the early phase of production ramp up at Curtiss plant.

Hope it is of interest? Comments anyone? I am sure there is more to learn about this subject.

I hope Terill Clements excuses me for quoting from his book, but without it ─? found it difficult to get the facts line up.

Sources:
A American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings
by Terill Clements. Osprey AC of the Aces #41,
ISBN 1-84176-224-5
B Lend-Lease Aircraft in World War II by Arthur
Pearcy. ─?SBN1-85310-443-4
C Fly Past mag. October 2003.
D Aeroplane mag. February 2003.
E Air Enthusiast mag. No.72 from 1997 Nov/Dec.

chris455
04-20-2005, 08:28 AM
I'd be happy if the Allison engine could manage to take a hit (any kind of hit) and not instantly seize up.
This engine had a reputation for ruggedness that is simply ignord in PF.