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MZ6
01-04-2005, 01:43 PM
I've been flying the FW190A series quite a bit with some success, However whenever I try the D9 (and Ta152) I don't do well at all!?

I need some advice if anyone can help

MZ6
01-04-2005, 01:43 PM
I've been flying the FW190A series quite a bit with some success, However whenever I try the D9 (and Ta152) I don't do well at all!?

I need some advice if anyone can help

Cajun76
01-04-2005, 02:21 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=493109104&r=402100304#402100304

Pay particular attention to Hunde's (Kyrule2 in earlier posts) post, and search for Zen-- 's as well. Some of the others in that post merely whine whenever they have the chance. With practice, the Fw is devastating and it's one of my favorite LW rides.

Edit: Forgot, Robban75 is also a good resource.

faustnik
01-04-2005, 02:33 PM
I do better in the A series too. I think there is just a slightly different feel to the A. Also, we probably do better in the 190A because it has more guns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

J_Weaver
01-04-2005, 02:37 PM
Be patient and B&Z don't try to T&B. Keep your speed up the faster the better. I'm sure you've noticed that the 190 becomes much more nimble(if that the right word)at higher speeds. Of course when you fly any of the 190's much it doesn't take long to figure this out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And pratice, pratice, pratice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

By the way I'm no 190 expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Fish6891
01-04-2005, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=493109104&r=402100304#402100304

Pay particular attention to Hunde's (Kyrule2 in earlier posts) post, and search for Zen-- 's as well. Some of the others in that post merely whine whenever they have the chance. With practice, the Fw is devastating and it's one of my favorite LW rides.

Edit: Forgot, Robban75 is also a good resource. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=9661024732

Mines better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

That link will take you to a thread I started when I was new to this sim, its FULL of info on all the Focke-Wulfs, should answer most of ur questions. Enjoy!

Regards,
Fish

P.S. Dora Rocks!

TX-Zen
01-04-2005, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I do better in the A series too. I think there is just a slightly different feel to the A. Also, we probably do better in the 190A because it has more guns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true Faustnik and I definately agree. The outboard guns on the Antons are not synchronized and so achieve full ROF compared to the inboard guns, plus I personally feel the extra dispersion increases the chance of hitting.

I'd say right now the D9 is at the lower end of FW potential because it has always relied on energy performance to succeed and these days anyone can climb at high AoA while being far below optimal climb speed and still achieve maximum climb rate. This effectively negates or reduces any performance advantage the D9 has against low wing loaded fighters and makes the relative energy needed for success much higher, meaning the D9 will need a larger intial energy margin to be successful with. Imho this larger energy requirement pushes the D9 out into BnZ ranges and the 2 mg151/20s are really not sufficient for 1 pass kills and ultimately this puts it on the low end.

Previous incarnations of the D9 were more favorable but unless something is done with the Vy issue, the D9 is really just not cutting it in most respects because it is easily matched in climb but still bleeds more E during transitional moves than other types do.


On the other hand is the Ta152 which while not really being a good turn fighter, has other advantages that work well. It's 90-180 degree turn is excellent and combined with the mk108 gives you excellent close combat abilities but like the whole 190 family it is not really suited for 1 on 1 either. In a pinch you can get by, but the slower roll rate is a big disadvantage. Level acceleration is also not as good as the D9, but these things are often muted by other planes ability to match or come close in the shallow dive, so acceleration at any altitude is not really going to win the day.

Because of the better turning ability and similar speed compared to the D9, the Ta has a similar range of E fighting potential but can mix it up close much better. Since the entire sim is really favoring TnB for close combat these days, its able to get by more so than other 190s who are normally very limited in this regard.


On a practical level I keep the speed high in both the D9 and the Ta and think more of slashing attacks as others have mentioned. Rarely will I choose to stick it out in close quarters because E fighting is extremely difficult in this version of the game and it just doesn't make sense to fight at a disadvantage, there is only so much one can do to overcome the performance advantage of other kinds of planes and so I take the long road and just try to extend when possible. For me this is actually quite a change in mindset, for years now the D9 has been a plane that when flown to the limits has been quite successful in close combat, but as I said the energy model no longer supports this type of engagement and so traditional hit and run tactics are generally more survivable.

If the bandit is approaching with an E advantage (for example turning into you at co E rather than coming in from way up high) a short scissors manuever coupled with negative G guns defense moves can break the E advantage allowing you a quick sprint to open seperation and allow for complete extension, but naturally some of this depends on the kind of plane attacking. Against Spits, P47's and other not so great accelerating aircraft this tactic often works well, against La7's and P51s the results may be mixed because they can come close or exceed the D9's acceleration.

People often point to the 190's roll rate as a big advantage, but I think this is also marginal in 3.03 because many planes have a roll rate close enough to minimize the effect. If you are thinking of rolling to outfox the bandit, do it at high speed because many of your typical opponents actually do not roll well over 400km/h, but again this is easier said than done.

The inherit issue of the 190 is energy bleed and while I genuinely believe the D9 to be the most accurately modelled plane in the game, it does burn energy with almost every movement of the stick and so almost any move will change your E state. This in and of itself is not bad and is one of the factors that makes the 190 a challange and joy to fly (as well as adding to the immersion of flying a plane that feels 'real'), but on a practical level your opponents are not as affected by this kind of E bleed and so 'staying fast' is not only difficult, it can be downright impossible under many conditions. Patience is a virtue in the 190 but it is also a virtue with your pursuer. Certainly few aircraft can match the high speed turn rate of the 190, but thats only effective for 90-270 degrees of turn, after that your speed has been bled to the extent that not only have you not gained a serious angles advantage but you are now below 400km/h and have transitioned into his realm of superior performance.

Personaly I wouldn't change a thing about the D9's flight model (including the E bleed), but other aircraft are not as hindered by E loss during manuevers and so you must keep this in mind.



Practical tips:

Level extensions are generally better than climbing. Turning is generally not a good idea even in the Ta152. Avoid going below 280km/h, all 190's are generally poor at low speed. Except for the Ta, performance drops off above 6000m and the only place you really have a speed advantage is at SL. Be smooth on the stick and don't pull more than the minimum required, E bleed doesn't favor heavy inputs in the D9 or the Ta.

Negative knife is a guns defense move when a bandit has closure on you and is just outside of firing range. Roll wings vertical and push down on the stick while adding rudder...if timed properly will cause the shooter to fire incorrectly based on what it appears you are doing instead of what you are actually doing. From this stance many other moves can be executed (for example a split S, scissors or a break turn) depending on your assessment of his E state.

Ta152:
Better close in fighting ability but be ultra careful of the snap stall. Rudder input combined with elevators and any amount of aileron will almost certainly force a snap stall leading to a difficult and often self destructive spin, so extreme care must be used during close combat. Avoid low speed aileron rolling as well because the plane is extremely prone to spin under high AoA rolling movements. Avoid protracted turning with anything including P47's...SA is critical in busy servers so unless you are certain you are all alone, its better to climb away from your target than to pursue him during a long turn.
Take advantage of the acceleration against Spits. The Ta can walk away from these planes at low altitude but any change in direction to view the bandit will reduce your E state (same for the D9). Against other types it is probably better to either dive to delay being hit which will allow you to assess his E state rather than simply run away, but be aware that a vertical reversal even with 1 km of seperation will allow the bandit to take a shot at you on the way up. The Ta is very mushy at low speeds and coming over the top after a long zoom is risky all by itself, as mentioned this is where the low speed snap stall often occurs unless great care is taken not to roll during the reversal.
Don't spary and pray with the mk108, save it for point blank shots and only fire when you are certain of hitting. The 20mm's are fine for short to medium distance so use those and only fire the 30mm if the target is extremely close. With a little bit of timing, the mk108 can be a devasting high deflection weapon, but this requires lots of practice.

D9:
Excellent roll rate can be used but as always only if the bandit commits. If he stays in lag pursuit you have achieved a measure of success because you aren't being shot to pieces but remember while you are changing direction through superior roll, he is saving his energy for a better position. Use combat flaps for any kind of hard turning or scissors, they add to the stability and delay the snap stall which occurs generally as you drop below 320km/h during turns. Like all 190's you should ease into manuevers and then increase stick force to reach maximum rate (But be careful during scissors because the D9 likes to snap stall after the 2nd reversal when G is applied). There is also a dead stall during scissors when speed drops below 300km/h where the D9 doesn't flip, but even though G is being applied the aircraft doesn't generate angles and so the move is wasted. This also often happens after the 2nd reversal and a typical remedy is to either immediately change direction again without turning or to attempt to turn just a little and then change direction instead.
Avoid attempting to outloop or outclimb your opponents. It is very difficult to judge E state unless you have a lot of practice and because of the Vy issue even if you do seem to have an advantage you can loose it while the bandit maintains his max climb rate at very low speed. Step climbing works well for both the Ta and the D9 where instead of sustain climbing you climb and then regain speed by level acceleration or slight dive, then climb again etc. Version 3.0 of the game allowed this advantage in acceleration to be significant, here in 3.03 it's still valid but more care must be taken.
Pay attention to your VSI, your speed and your AoA during climbs...these three factors can tell you when you bleeding E or when you are sustaining the climb and with some practice you can learn to E fight by using them. (This is how I learned, all in the 190 cockpit). Best climb speed is theoretically still 280km/h, but lately high speed climbs of 350-400+ do just as well and add a speed margin for safety. Best climb rate appears to be 26m/s but again this is relative, your bandit may be exceeding that during zooms so use the VSI as a relative indication of vertical performance, not necessarily absolute time to height performance.
Fire early and fire often: I don't personally subscribe to this theory in the D9, I prefer to get in very close to shoot but often the angle of fire or the bandits SA allow him to avoid getting hit, but its just hard for me to open fire at longer ranges even though many others recommend it. I don't disagree which is why I mention it here, but for me it just doesn't suit my style. Generally you should expect to pepper your target to death instead of take him out of action in 1 burst. I do recommend that if you fire at fairly close range to hose him down, the 151's do work very well in sustained bursts but not so well in short taps. For longer than 200m shots I generally use the cowl mounted MG's, you have about 68 seconds of firing time with them and there's no sense in bringing them home I suppose.

As a style of attacking for all 190's you have to be aware of deflection shooting...its very hard, so either point blank shooting is required or you must approach your target from a slight angle off rather then dead 6 during turns. The roll rate works well here because you can curve in while keeping the bandit in the left or right front window, then as he crosses out of sight roll to be in his track and let him have it. Again timing and practice are everything here, so be patient and fly the plane alot to get used to. During prebattle closure its best not to fly straight at the enemy especially while climbing. The forward view is poor so an unorthodox style of curving toward your target is often needed. While this is going to cause you to lose some amount of initial angle advantage, SA and keeping track of the bandit is critical and overrides raw performance. Its just the nature of the 190 to fight from less than perfect performance so get used to it and enjoy the plane for what it is.

Here are my joystick settings:

X=13 21 28 39 53 65 77 88 96 100
Y=22 28 37 45 54 65 77 88 97 100
Z=35 41 48 56 67 76 82 89 95 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0

And I set convergence to 1000 for all guns on all models but only fire from 50-150m.


I probably forgot many things but I hope this gets you started. Faustnik, Robban, Gunslinger, Hunde, Fehler and others will add their own points and you should pick and choose what works for you. 190 pilots tend to be individualistic in their personal styles but very team oriented and work well together. This is what makes the brotherhood so wondeful to be part of. Remember also to practice practice practice. It can't be said enough.

Edit: Dive speeds are generally safe to 840km/h on the speed bar but extreme care must be used during the pullup. I've snapped wings of the Ta in as low as 660km/h and it's a fairly predictable occurance at 740km/h+ if too much elevator is applied for both the D9 and Ta. Anything over 800 and I will generally ease out with the lightest stick pull possible.

Couple of pointers: When in doubt climb instead of turn and when in doubt extend rather than climb. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&lt;S&gt;

VW-IceFire
01-04-2005, 09:10 PM
I love the FW190's...they are so much fun to fly when you are having a good day and thinking properly and having a bit of luck. Not so good when you are having a bad day and not thinking.

I can't decide on FW190A or FW190D as a favorite. I tend to shy away from the Ta-152 because of lower roll rate (but sometimes its a real winner for me too!).

3.JG51_BigBear
01-04-2005, 09:25 PM
All about he antons. My favorite for pure flying is the A4 but for combat nothing beats the A9. With two 20MM, two 30MM, and two 13MM cannons one pass is all it takes. Fly it with manual prop pitch set to 100% at 95% throttle and radiator closed and you can cruise around all day. Get real high, look for isolated targets, and go.

MZ6
01-04-2005, 09:55 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think it's because the A series is more unstable. At the edge of the envelope you can 'flip' and A more than a D. I tried flying the Dora like an A and did poorly.

jenikovtaw
01-04-2005, 11:29 PM
I think after 3.03 patch, 190 doesn't roll nearly as "snappily" if you can say it.

For me, that was my only way to live, scissors. Now, I can still do it, but less so.

On the other hand, D9 seems to retain more energy in a high speed sustained turn.....So now I can choose to keep in a fight rather than always run away like i used to. Running away doesn't seem as effective in a D9 anymore either.

3.JG51_BigBear
01-04-2005, 11:55 PM
A great thing about the A model is the ability to score kills with snap shots because of the shot gun effect from firing so many cannons at different rates of fire. I find myself intentionally stalling the plane to get kill if I'm certain that my rounds will make contact. The D model just doesn't have the dispersion of fire to make a maneuver like this worth while.

Cajun76
01-05-2005, 01:19 AM
^ Man, I save just about every one of Zen's posts on stuff like this. Real good stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

@Fish:

That was the post I was looking for, but I couldn't find it. Woe is me, for I'm merely a Cajun... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif