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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 08:44 AM
Can we please strike a happy medium here with this thing? In 1.11 it was slightly too tough, now it sheds its wings with 2-3 .50 rounds. The 109 is much tougher than the 190 now. Would it be that hard to put a complex damage model on the thing? Right now its pathetically weak, not to mention that 1 mg round in a wing will cause it to roll hard to that side.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

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Message Edited on 11/17/0302:59AM by lbhskier37

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 08:44 AM
Can we please strike a happy medium here with this thing? In 1.11 it was slightly too tough, now it sheds its wings with 2-3 .50 rounds. The 109 is much tougher than the 190 now. Would it be that hard to put a complex damage model on the thing? Right now its pathetically weak, not to mention that 1 mg round in a wing will cause it to roll hard to that side.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--


Message Edited on 11/17/0302:59AM by lbhskier37

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 08:58 AM
lbhskier37 wrote:
- Can we please strike a happy medium here with this
- thing? In 1.11 it was slightly too tough, now it
- sheds its wings with 2-3 .50 rounds. The 109 is
- much tougher than the 190 now. Would it be that
- hard to put a complex damage model on the thing?
- Right now its pathetically weak, not to mention that
- 1 mg round in a wing will cause it to roll hard to
- that side.

I assume you meant DM not FM in your subject heading, but yes, this is the unfortunate consequence of not giving the 190 a complex DM like the other aircraft. Why we are getting 30 flyables in the add-on, but not a real DM for the 190 is beyond me, especially when you consider how important the 190 is in the sim.

Due to neglect, unfortunately, the 190 has fallen by the wayside in the Il-2 series. I know Oleg prefers the 109, but I think the only other German prop fighter currently in the game deserves a little love, too. When may not see her again for several long years...


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 09:07 AM
I'll drink to that. It's definitely too weak. A stray round will now rip your wing off. I so wish I had been recording that one.

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 10:03 AM
Don't forget the coming back of the PK's and the ueberweak rear fuselage now!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 11:10 AM
I have a track, I was able to reproduce this bug.
Just 2 MG hits to cut the wing.


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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 12:14 PM
Be prepared to being called the UBER-Whiners soon...

We already got used to allthe disadvantages and yet....

Send the track to OLEG and hope for the best. I am interested. Although I witnessed some degree of less durability of the crate I was able to survive some time against two Mustangs. However, I crashed due to lack of wing... I didn't count the number of bullet though..


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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 12:34 PM
Why not to put this item in a pay addon? Not necessarily the first one.. Because I hope there will be at least a couple of payware add-ons to keep ourselves busy while waiting for BoB..

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 02:30 PM
BaronVonSnoopy wrote:
- I'll drink to that. It's definitely too weak. A
- stray round will now rip your wing off. I so wish I
- had been recording that one.
-
-

Flew my first online 1.2 last night. Didn't think about it too much at the time, but yes, I lost an entire wing on my 190 to a bomber's guns. Went from undamaged to no wing in an instant - at least, I never heard, felt or saw any damage until I suddenly found myself tumbling uncontrollably through the air.

I thought 1.11 DM was fair enough (given it was a simple one) and I fly against 190s a bit more than in them. At least 1.2 gives us some good targets (B-17) for the awesome loadouts possible on the 190 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - just don't get hit...

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 02:35 PM
Has it not been stated that the Fw's DM is being reworked?



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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 02:53 PM
I suggest you watch a serious amount of guncamera footage the 190 dm is as close as its ever been, there is a definate problem that the 190s 109 p51 wings are significantly weaker then any vvs aircrafts wings even the ki84 and zero seem to have stronger wings

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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 03:43 PM
A suggestion(as previously posted) would be to send your information directly to Oleg and not get into it on this forum(anything FW 190 related). Thats your best bet. Any discussion here will likely end up in a flame war or countless, "Can you guys please stop, your making Oleg mad at us" statements. Thanks for the post though bud, fire that track off to the man!

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 04:25 PM
Last night I was flying FW190s and then shooting them down in P-47's and P-51's later in the night and not once did 2-3 MG hits bring a wing off.

Infact, this one guy was flip flopping all over the place and I hit him with half an ammo load to almost no effect. He then turned around and proceeded to batter my P-51 for several minutes until some friendlies showed up and blew him away with a sustained burst of 20mm fire.

Was this on RC01 or on the previous leaked beta?

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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 04:47 PM
Sometimes it makes me think people are flying a different game than I am.

IMHO, RC01 has made the A9 easier to bring down, but now the Dora is a tank. I have countless times unloaded nearly all ammo into a 190 and did not hurt its ability to come back around and disintegrate my Yak with one quick burst.

I have noticed now that if you can get the Dora in a good deflection shot in a high wingload turn, its wing will come off as it should with a good burst.

From behind though this plane is just nearly impossible to damage in the least bit.

Strange how people see things so differently.


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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 05:22 PM
Too many planes too many tweaks to be made, thank god they realized this with BoB ..

But yes if this is true ( 2-3 mg bullets wing off ) I would call it a major bug in the game.

There are two major planes in LW side , both of them deserve complex DM. Why doesnt FW190 allrdy have it is beyond my resoning.

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 06:24 PM
"The 109 is much tougher than the 190 now."

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH.

After a few hours trying to shoot down B17s I can assure you that 190A>190D>109

Other than that one rediculous comment I have to agree.

I'm thinking the I-16 has the same sort of DM, in which case it needs to be upgraded in complexity as well.

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 06:28 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Has it not been stated that the Fw's DM is being
- reworked?
-

My understanding is that due its ridiculous resistance to fire before the patch, the 190's DM has been toned down by reducing its overall "toughness." So in this sense, it has been reworked, but this is having some odd consequences. PKs are now much easier than other well-armored aircraft and wings react very oddly to damage, yet some parts of the fuselage continue to absorb huge amounts of fire with no effect whatsoever.

Clearly the DM is just as simplified as ever. I have never noticed control damage, engine damage other than operable/inoperable, or damage to guns. And all damage to cockpit area seem to result in instant PK. Also, watch how the wing breaks and you can see that, visually, it is very simple compared to other aircraft, as well.

I too originally thought that the 190 was going to receive a new, complex DM. I believe such was even stated sometime soon after 1.11 patch, but apparently the workload of all the new flyables for the add-on has prevented time being spent on this.

Personally, I'd pass on 2 or 3 flyables in the add-on if we could have a Forgotten Battles quality DM for the 190.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 06:33 PM
i dunno, i think the 109 is one tuff mofo now... i have flow home numerous times with holes all over the place, smoking motor and landed... iam sure a few guys where expecting me to be completely dead.. lol.,..

i dont venture in the 190 anymore, since its just a pain in the but to turn and it falls apart alot easier than a G6 or K4 now... just my thoughts as i did alot of flying this passed weekend, and normally my 109s would live pretty good while the 190s would fall easier... dunno, flew A4-A9s... didnt get in a D9 yet thou...

this is on RC04????? thats what it says when i load my game

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 06:41 PM
JG26_Red wrote:
- i dunno, i think the 109 is one tuff mofo now... i
- have flow home numerous times with holes all over
- the place, smoking motor and landed... iam sure a
- few guys where expecting me to be completely dead..
- lol.,..
-
- i dont venture in the 190 anymore, since its just a
- pain in the but to turn and it falls apart alot
- easier than a G6 or K4 now... just my thoughts as i
- did alot of flying this passed weekend, and normally
- my 109s would live pretty good while the 190s would
- fall easier... dunno, flew A4-A9s... didnt get in a
- D9 yet thou...

Once again, I think this is more a consequence of perception due to the differences between a complex and a simplified DM. Almost every hit you get in the 109 you notice, because it does some sort of readily felt or seen damage. However, the 190 can take a bunch of hits with no player-observed effects whatsoever, but then take just one more bullet and suffer an instant catastrophic failure. Based on observations offline, other than the wings, the 190 appears to take a lot more hits than the 109. It's just that the effects of these hits on both ends (for both the shooter and the victim) are much simpler and less noticable.

-
- this is on RC04????? thats what it says when i load
- my game
-
-

That's a "1" that is merging with the highlights on the Dora's cowling, making it look like a "4."



--AKD

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ZG77_Nagual
11-17-2003, 06:44 PM
I'm a long time 190 driver. I got no issues with it.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 06:46 PM
well maybe they should make the 190 have a better DM like the 109, so iam not flying straight thinking the guy shooting at me isnt hitting me... lol

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 07:14 PM
You're so fast you don't need to worry about getting hit.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 07:48 PM
I would think that it probably was a gameplay decision, as german AC in general got major FM improvements in 1.2b, a more fragile DM seems to be the tradeoff.


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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 07:51 PM
please explain major improvements? 109s got some help in engine overheating, but nothing other than that... 190s? turn worse... stall easier? what improvements? lol

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 08:08 PM
The 190 is definitely more stable now, which is really good. However, one little hit from a 50cal on the inner most part of the wing will render it totally useless. I've since the beta patch managed to destroy 190's with a quick 1/10 of a second burst. They simply fall apart. Although the La's and Yak's are easier to down now they can still absorb an amazing amount of hits, especially on the wings and on the middle and aft fuselage. BnZ'ing them requires many passes. This is my experience anyways, I know some people are bound to disagree./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 09:18 PM
The 190's don't have a DM at all.
If they do, then they are modelled as if made of balsa wood and paper!

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 10:10 PM
I have done some extensive testing regarding this. The damage models in general in FB appear to be based soley on probability. Putting a 30mm round in the wing of a plane does not garuntee a kill, it simply gives about a 2/3 chance of breaking the wing off. Same applies for 12.7mm's, each hit has a certain probability of breaking the wing off. So the odds of the first bullet breaking it off are exactly the same as the 200th hit. This could be changed to a strict scripted system where for example one 30mm hit always destroys the wing of a certain plane type. But I am not sure Oleg will go for that.

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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 10:19 PM
1 30mm shell should take out any plane other than large bombers... especially on a wing...

XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 11:22 PM
The good news is that the 20mm guns are improved. Combine that with stability during BnZ, the more realistic climb rate, you get a more realistic feeling and lethal plane and that means I'm a happy camper.

Downside is still that weird chipped paint (or invisible damage even) that kills your speed and induces aileron roll but all things considered I'm not complaining.

Now that you guys mention it, I have noticed a larger incidence of 190 wings falling off, including mine. In fact, thats the only way I seem to get killed now unless it's a pilot kill....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

TX-Zen
Black 6
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XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 12:26 AM
TX-Zen wrote:
-- Now that you guys mention it, I have noticed a
- larger incidence of 190 wings falling off, including
- mine. In fact, thats the only way I seem to get
- killed now unless it's a pilot
- kill....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Because it has a very simple damage model. There are basically 4 ways to take out a 190:

1. PK

2. Sever wing

3. Hit fuel tank and sever rear fuselage or cause leak.

4. Cause instant engine inoperable.

Other than those, the Fw-190 will keep flying indefinitely. Compare that to the multitude of ways you can be knocked out of action in most other fighters and you see why it always seems like you are only being shot down with catastrophic damage.

As I have said before, this isn't really a pro- or anti-190 whine. The simple DM has both benefits and negatives if you are flying the 190. More than anything, it just makes the experience of flying a 190 feal less "real" than the other beautifully modelled aircraft in the game.


--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 03:18 AM
I e-mailed Oleg & crew the second day after the patch was released. I stated that a balance between 1.11 and 1.2RC was needed. It WAS too tough before and it IS too weak now. Having said that, I also mentioned that the simplified DM was to blame and that it was the weakness of the wings and rear fuesalage that are destroyed too easily. Yet it is/was too strong in other areas. This plane really needs a good complex DM but it should still be tough. It's a shame my favorite plane (and one of the most important ones) is one of the only ones with a simplified DM /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif . This is really a strange decision/oversight by Oleg/1C because of the importance of the 190 on the eastern and western front.

Note: I don't fly the Dora as much so this applies to the 190A.

Btw, it is good to see others have noticed this and created a thread, hopefully it will be looked at.

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Message Edited on 11/18/0302:19AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 04:47 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- I e-mailed Oleg & crew the second day after the
- patch was released. I stated that a balance between
- 1.11 and 1.2RC was needed. It WAS too tough before
- and it IS too weak now. Having said that, I also
- mentioned that the simplified DM was to blame and
- that it was the weakness of the wings and rear
- fuesalage that are destroyed too easily. Yet it
- is/was too strong in other areas. This plane really
- needs a good complex DM but it should still be
- tough. It's a shame my favorite plane (and one of
- the most important ones) is one of the only ones
- with a simplified DM /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif . This is really a strange
- decision/oversight by Oleg/1C because of the
- importance of the 190 on the eastern and western
- front.
-
- Note: I don't fly the Dora as much so this applies
- to the 190A.

Dora has simplified DM as well, as far as I can tell, but I fly the Anton much more.

-
- Btw, it is good to see others have noticed this and
- created a thread, hopefully it will be looked at.

The 190 (especially Antons) are my personal favorite also (although the Mustang is vying for my affection). I was worried I was alone in caring also, but apparently not. I'm really hopeful that the team will take the time to make a new DM for her, probably not for the add-on I'm sure, but sometime before they officially move over in full-force to BoB.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 08:47 AM
I think what someone said about the randomness is holding true. Tonight when flying online I got a bunch of different things happen in my Dora. The first 2 times I died were breaking in half at the fuel tank(by a mk108 though, so im not complaining). After that, I got hit with what sounded like 2 50cals from a B17 which caused my plane to pull like mad to that side although showed only the first damage level texture, eventually my crippled plane was taken down by hits to the fuselage. After that my plane survived multiple 50cal hits with almost no effect. It took two or three good bursts from a P51 to take off my wing. The one that took the cake though was some stray mg rounds from a zero took my wing off from 800m dead six, my plane had taken no damage previously. I was watching my plane in the outside view and saw a few stray tracers and then my wing just fell off, it couldnt have been more than 3 rounds that hit me. I wish I wouldve been saving a track then. The point is, with this simple DM it seems wildly random which is why some of you are seeing uber tough 190s and some have the wings fall off when you stare at them hard.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

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--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 12:07 PM
Korolov wrote:

- You're so fast you don't need to worry about getting
- hit.


My god, someone has gotten it right.

The 190, much like the P-47, and even the Bf109 K-4, is... if flown right, not very susceptible to being hit. If you find yourself in situations where you're taking damage in the FW, you're not likely using it right (seems obvious, but isn't). Unlike the Yak3, the Zero, and the slew of other planes commonly used to TnB, the FW is meant for high speed combat, or ... BnZ in other words.


Also, i have been flying the D9 since the leaked beta, and i'll say this.. it seems to take damage better than almost every fighter i've flown, P-47 aside. I was in a situation the other day, dragging a P-51 who was roughly .40 out from me, before i began to extend. I was hit with NO LESS than 30 .50's, and at the end of it all, when he was finally downed by my wingman... I RTB'd with minimal damage at the root of my left wing. I don't know about the other FW's, but the D9 is A ok with me.

XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 01:57 PM
Not long ago I read a story (there was a link on one of the forums) about an American P51 jockey who scored approx. 200 .50 hits on an FW not taking it down! Tough bird, however, it does get shaky when damaged.

S!

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 09:48 AM
The damage model is accurate to gun camera footage, i fly the 190 alot and you dont see me complaining and I do extremely well in the A-D models, you people are just use to previous verison where the 190 could take more then 3/4s of a planes ammo and still fly.

Great job with damage models for all planes Oleg this game hasnt been better with realistic damage, you whine about damage models of your favorite bird is ridiculous, you shouldnt be getting shot in the firstplace

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 11:24 AM
Ding ding ding...

We have a winner!

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 11:37 AM
LOL! You know whats funny? Before the beta I never seen a Luftwhiner complain that the FW-190 was way too tuff. Now that you can be shot down easily like other aircraft you reach for your tissues. Another thing that cracks me up is that most of you are the same people who flame the P-51 and P-47 threads. FW-190 took way more damage the P-47 and not one German flyer said a word...lol.
=S=
Carry On!

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 12:05 PM
" and not one German flyer said a word...lol. "

are you sure of this ?
Before saying such lie you should realize that you do not read ALL threads written in this forum.


But even if nobody said a word about the durability oif the FW190 , this does not means nobody should ask Oleg to make a correct damage model for FW190.

Between black and white, there is another color grey.

I hope Oleg team will correct this thing.

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 01:20 PM
Yo havok.. Mayby it was so obvious that nobody cared to talk about it?

If somebody would have brought it up everybody would have said "yaeh yeah use the search, discussed 100 time allrdy" ..

And they would have been right too.

The same thing was with I-16 everybody knew it was too tough but nobody cared to fight over it since it was so obvious.

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 02:35 PM
"The Mustang is JUST FINE Oleg, don't change a thing! But if you don't mind, toughen up my '190 please, it's not supposed to be able to be shot down!"

Eurowhining at its best.


Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 02:36 PM
did you see my post? I said its DM is inconsistant. Sometimes most of a P51s load wont take me down, sometimes 2 mgs from 800m will. Does this seem correct? Why should the 190 still get a simple DM?


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 02:53 PM
The "2 rounds" takes off a wing thing is crap.

I've been concentrating on FWs and still find them hard to bring down. 2 rounds? Nonsense.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 02:59 PM
"The Mustang is JUST FINE Oleg, don't change a thing! But if you don't mind, toughen up my '190 please, it's not supposed to be able to be shot down!"

Eurowhining at its best.

Congrats SkyCHimp .. You have just won the award for the most moronic post of the day. http://forum.gamesurf.tiscali.de/images/smilies/mauer.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 03:08 PM
"I've been concentrating on FWs and still find them hard to bring down. 2 rounds? Nonsense.
Regards,
SkyChimp"


Skychimp : you are a very bad player.
You should stop flying easy russian birds and your skills would improve in fighting FW190.

Salute,
Tex

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 03:12 PM
csThor wrote:
-
- "The Mustang is JUST FINE Oleg, don't change a
- thing! But if you don't mind, toughen up my '190
- please, it's not supposed to be able to be shot
- down!"
-
- Eurowhining at its best.
-
- Congrats SkyCHimp .. You have just won the award for
- the most moronic post of the day. <img
- src="http://forum.gamesurf.tiscali.de/images/smili
- es/mauer.gif" border=0>


Thanks, I'm learning from the Eurowhiners.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sighell.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 03:14 PM
JaboTex wrote:
- "I've been concentrating on FWs and still find them
- hard to bring down. 2 rounds? Nonsense.
- Regards,
- SkyChimp"
-
-
- Skychimp : you are a very bad player.
- You should stop flying easy russian birds and your
- skills would improve in fighting FW190.
-
- Salute,
- Tex


Sorry, the P-47 and P-41 are my rides of choice.

I just disagree that the Fw-190 should stand up to every bit of ammo in those planes, and then some, as some people in this thread want.

A good BURST of fire will sever a wing. So what, that happened in real life. The Fw wasn't made of solid steel.

But Oleg could tone down the high speed roll rate. It's still absurdly high.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sighell.jpg



Message Edited on 11/19/0305:15PM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 04:11 PM
Too bad nothing concerning the 190 can be discussed for very long before the thread turns to fertilizer.

If the 190 has a simplified DM, then lbhskier37 is right. A complex DM would allow for finer adjustments and greater accuracy, and what exactly would be wrong with that? Those of you arguing that the plane is too weak or too tough are missing his point entirely.



<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 04:25 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- Too bad nothing concerning the 190 can be discussed
- for very long before the thread turns to fertilizer.


Oh come on, can't you take a little good-natured ribbing? We take it in every single P-51 thread that comes up.

I just don't see an issue with the Fw. The "1 or 2 rounds and wing comes off" thing is bunk. Oleg did better than that.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sighell.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 04:39 PM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Chadburn wrote:
-- Too bad nothing concerning the 190 can be discussed
-- for very long before the thread turns to fertilizer.
-
-
- Oh come on, can't you take a little good-natured
- ribbing? We take it in every single P-51 thread
- that comes up.
-
- I just don't see an issue with the Fw. The "1 or 2
- rounds and wing comes off" thing is bunk. Oleg did
- better than that.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp


It ain't bunk, I fly the 190 almost exclusivly, and at least in the Dora I have had some pretty crazy instances where my wing was knocked off. I was watching the Zero in the outside view, he was at 800m and fired one last ditch burst as I extended, no more than 2 or 3 bullets couldve hit me from that range and my wing just fell off. I am not saying 190 is too weak, I am saying its screwy, sometimes being unkillable, sometimes only a few rounds will drop it. And no one can deny that if a wing takes more than one mg round it loses a ton of lift, it shouldnt effect the 190 that much more than any other plane. 190 should have a complex DM.




"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 04:56 PM
Maybe it's a problem with the Zero's guns? Those 20mms will blow planes apart with only a few rounds. They're far more powerful than German 20mm IMO.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sighell.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 05:23 PM
i know what u mean killa.. last night i was right behind a D9, he was following a color mate... i dove on him, at .3 i fried one shot of a few rounds of the 13mm from the K, hit his wing and it went flying... i was like WOW.. lol.. these where the 13mm not 30mm... again later in the night, my 30mm where out, only had 13mm.. and laid into the same guy for a few seconds, and i know i was hitting him all over and he never went down... seems a tad bit inconsistent... if other planes have a complex DM i think the 190 should too, i mean it was only 1 of the top 5 best fighters of the war...

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 05:52 PM
When reading the pilot stories in the book "Green hearts, first in combat with the Dora-9" it strikes me how easy it was to down a plane compared to IL2 FB. Be it a D-9, P-51, Tempest or P-47, all planes went down after a few strikes. However none of the many Dora's that were downed lost their wings. Mostly it was hits to the engine or cockpit that brought it down.

Also, the Yak-3 and Yak-9 proved to be no match for the pilots of JG 26./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<center>


http://members.chello.se/unni/rote3.JPG



'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 06:28 PM
tell me about it robban, i have really laid into some guys, thinking i hit them as i was so close but they fly away... damage models on all planes maybe over done? i know the 109 is alot tougher in this RC that before... i get hit alot and the thing still flys most of the time...

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 07:11 PM
SkyChimp wrote:
- Maybe it's a problem with the Zero's guns? Those
- 20mms will blow planes apart with only a few rounds.
- They're far more powerful than German 20mm IMO.

aha you meen Oleg should make the german 20mm better /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

√¬§hhh... no I have made a few tests last week. You need 4 to 8 0.50 hits to take off a wing of a D9. I made this test with the quickmissionbuilder and a group of friendly D9 + a P39 Q10. Because its a lot of work to make the test with every plane I make the test with the fullmissionbuilder and placed the testplane behind a IL2 on a runway changed to the reargunner. The result is the same 4 to 8 hits (sometimes two) I have made the same test with other planes but I don‚¬īt remember all numbers but they are closer together then I have expected. You can try the same with a He111H6 and H2. I have only testet the H2 on a P47 and it is impossible to take off wing with the MG17 (by the way I think the V0 is to low for the MG17). MGFF needs 2 hits.

and don‚¬īt forget to activate Arcade mode to count the hits.

Greatings
Merlin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG301_Merlin
Kapit√¬§n 3. Staffel
Jagdgeschwader 301 "Wilde Sau"
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de/images/wappen-t1.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 07:41 PM
csThor wrote:
-
- "The Mustang is JUST FINE Oleg, don't change a
- thing! But if you don't mind, toughen up my '190
- please, it's not supposed to be able to be shot
- down!"
-
- Eurowhining at its best.
-
- Congrats SkyCHimp .. You have just won the award for
- the most moronic post of the day. <img
- src="http://forum.gamesurf.tiscali.de/images/smili
- es/mauer.gif" border=0>
-
----------------------------
- <a href="http://www.lwskins.de.vu"
- target="_blank"><img
- src="http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-000
- 1/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg" border=0></a>
- Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

And it's quite a surprise now that you award it to him, lol, thanks for a good laugh my old friend http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.





=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2003, 10:55 PM
ok, dora rollrate at high speed is to good,


but is that righ,that p51 roll

105 degree at 400km/h (250mph)

90 degree 350km/h (220mph)

not ruder use

mean she roll 350km/h 60 degree

400km/h 65 degrees

this speed very importan for typical dogfight and it seem p51 is overmodel by rollrate


better not speak from rollrate,many plane has not right rollrate

la-7 rollrate is much better now as fb 1.11,

160 degrees at 400km/h,seem to to good



Message Edited on 11/20/0301:18AM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:43 AM
As a fellow BnZ'er, and occasional P-47 pilot as well.... I'm going to side with HaVoK on this one.


To put it in terms even JaboTex can understand....


YOU ARE INCORRECT.

Thank you for your time, go troll somewhere else.



+1 pleased customer, and joyous pilot of the FW 190.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:48 AM
who you calling a troll? lotsa peeps chatted on here?>

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 02:22 AM
Havok, you are an idiot. Plenty of 190 drivers including myself said the 190 was too tough on numerous occasions. Stop posting you biased BS please.


And Skychimp, someday you will realize that your posts are biased BS as well. You are the American Huck and anyone who has been around this board awhile knows this. I'm not the first to mention this. Just about everyone else notices the "1 hit = 1 less wing bug" but you. This dates back to IL-2 days.

And people who don't think there is a problem are either stupid, or ignorant. The Lagg and 190 may be the last 2 fighters with a simplified DM so they cannot be as well done as the other planes. With a simplified DM you are going to have problems, period. The problem with the 190 is that the wings and rear fuesalage sections are subject to VERY early destruction while other parts of the fuesalage can take insane amounts of damage. What we 190 drivers want is a complex DM like almost every other plane, not the simplified inconsistent DM it has now.

As a note in my e-mail to Oleg I reported about the 190's SIMPLIFIED DM, and about the Mustang's performance at very high altitudes.


<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 11/20/0301:55AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 02:33 AM
The FW and Zero, have weird damage models. Sometimes you pour it on and they keep flying or a microburst makes them shatter. I am starting to change my mind about the zero being an easy flamer BTW. It takes lots of 50 cal hits all over the wing (Arcade mode) and does not flame many times. I must have gotten lucky the first time I tried. In fact P-40 V Zero the P-40 flames far more often.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 02:49 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Havok, you are an idiot. Plenty of 190 drivers
- including myself said the 190 was too tough on
- numerous occasions. Stop posting you biased BS
- please.
-
-
-
- And Skychimp, someday you will realize that your
- posts are biased BS as well. You are the American
- Huck and to anyone who has been around this board
- awhile knows this. I'm not the first to mention
- this. Just about everyone else notices the "1 hit =
- 1 less wing bug" but you. This dates back to IL-2
- days.
-
- And people who don't think there is a problem are
- either stupid, or ignorant. The Lagg and 190 may be
- the last 2 fighters with a simplified DM so they
- cannot be as well done as the other planes.

I-16 also, but I think that's it. Oh, and add me to the list of 190 drivers who posted about it taking far too many hits in the tail with no effect before the patch.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 03:13 AM
kyrule2 wrote:

- And Skychimp, someday you will realize that your
- posts are biased BS as well. You are the American
- Huck and anyone who has been around this board
- awhile knows this. I'm not the first to mention
- this. Just about everyone else notices the "1 hit =
- 1 less wing bug" but you. This dates back to IL-2
- days.
-
- And people who don't think there is a problem are
- either stupid, or ignorant.


Stop your crying. It seems the Fw is one of the strongest planes in the whole plane set. You whine because 2 whole bullets take off a wing. Not in any copy of FB I have.

I'm a little concerned that all these hits did NOTHING to the plane - no smoke, no loss of manueverability. Hell, there's even a clear PK shot - Nothing.

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/bs.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/bs2.jpg


Message Edited on 11/20/0306:03AM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 04:14 AM
More:

(And these shots were taken after a second pass, and many of the arrows previously in the wings had already disappeared.)

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/bs3.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/bs4.jpg


Kyrule2 says: "Anyone that can't see it is either stupid or ignorant."



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sighell.jpg

Message Edited on 11/20/0306:24AM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:28 AM
Skychimp, the Fw-190 DOES NOT HAVE A COMPLEX DAMAGE MODEL. This makes it's reaction to damage LESS REALISTIC than other aircraft in FB, sometimes to the 190's detriment, sometimes to it's benefit.

For example, a single round in the wing can render the aircraft totally unstable (this does not happen to the same degree in other aircraft), yet that same wing can take 30 more hits with no other effects. At other times a few rounds can strike the wing and cause an instant catastrophic failure.

Most here, including Kyrule, are not asking for a tougher 190 DM, they are asking for a more realistic 190 DM, I would think a dedicated U.S. flyer such as yourself would want the same, but clearly you believe for some reason that the simple 190 DM is to your benefit.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:42 AM
A.K.Davis wrote:

Most here, including Kyrule, are not asking for a
- tougher 190 DM, they are asking for a more
- realistic 190 DM, I would think a dedicated
- U.S. flyer such as yourself would want the same, but
- clearly you believe for some reason that the
- simple 190 DM is to your benefit.

Thanks for understanding A.K. (sorry that you don't chimp) that I don't want a tougher 190, I want a more accurate 190 with a complex DM. I don't want to have a wing severed randomly from 600m and then absorb 200 .50 caliber rounds in the mid fuesalge with nary a scratch. I just want a complex DM like the other 98% of planes.



Hey look! It's Skychimp justly saving us from all of the evil, misguided Luftwhiners!

http://www.trenchman.com/cap/cap36.jpg



http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap1.jpg



I wonder if it is hard to play FB with that mask on? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 11/20/0305:44AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:17 AM
ok 4 questions here. Some of you seem to think that 50.s should be BB guns. these things must be taken into account.
depending on the factors involved it is quite possible that a very short burst from .50's would do this.

1. what was the location of the hits on the wing?
2. from what angle were was the shots comming from?
3. what wa the distance to the target?
4. What plain was fiering at you? P-47?

Keeping in mind that the p-47 HAS 8 .50's. that's a lot of lead being slung at 1 spot. With the right convergence on the .50's it's entirly possible.

{some of you folks seem to think that .50's couldn't kill tiger tanks too. lol wtch the combat footage is all i can say.}

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:30 AM
What The F!???? this only proves what i've been suspecting all along about the 190's DM. this is just F-u-K-I-n BULLSh!t !!!! No wonder you can't Bring them down?!
you you bastids are all crying "ohhh the 190 DM is too weak! boo hoo hooo" Well cry me a f-ing hand full.
Either the DM on the 190 is Over modeled or the 50's are undermodeld. At this range & convergence the dam thing should be a ball of fire.
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/bs2.jpg

if any plane in the set should take this kind of beating it should be the IL-2 & p-47. No damn wonder you always see servers full of FW-190 A-9's! grrrrrrr
This just Fkin sucks!







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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:51 AM
http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/emo/doublebird.gif <-----"your NUMBER 1!"
All luftwhiners must burn in their cockpits!

Hmmm nice picture Kyrule.....i think this one is more accurate how ever.
http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1087.jpg


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Message Edited on 11/20/0312:59AM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:01 AM
you guys obviously dont get the point here. We are saying that the FW sometimes takes rediculus ammounts of damage. If you are not going to read the whole thread just go flame somewhere else. We are "whining" that the FW shouldn't have a simplified damage model, this is the reason you can hit it all over. Skychimp, Copperhead, go online tonight and fly the FW for a few hours. You will see the inconsistancy. Wait nevermind I even posted this because you guys will just come back and say I want a stronger FW and not even listen to what I said like you have for 3 pages.

Simple:

FW has simple damage model=inconsistant damage

Oh yeah btw Chimp, that isnt a PK there becuase there is armor there.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:38 AM
lbhskier37 wrote:

- FW has simple damage model=inconsistant damage

Forget it Ibhskier37, these people will never get it. They manage to b1tch while COMPLETELY missing the point. Apparently the fact that we don't want a tougher 190, we want one with a complex damage model (even if the 190 is weaker overall) is too tough for them to grasp.

Copperhead, you have to be the biggest d1ckhead on this entire forum, hands down. You always mangage to tick everyone off with your ignorance. Try reading a thread once in awhile before posting in it, you might learn something.....well.....maybe having you learn something is being a bit optimistic on my part. If you can't grasp something as simple as this, there really isn't much hope.

I read all of your posts like "mush-mouth", that's about the only way they are entertaining in the least.

http://www.afunk.com/other/fatalbert/pictures/002.jpg


Youbba arba an asba-holeba.





<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 11/20/0307:39AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:39 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- What The F!???? this only proves what i've been
- suspecting all along about the 190's DM. this is
- just F-u-K-I-n BULLSh!t !!!! No wonder you can't
- Bring them down?!
- you you bastids are all crying "ohhh the 190 DM is
- too weak! boo hoo hooo" Well cry me a f-ing hand
- full.
- Either the DM on the 190 is Over modeled or the 50's
- are undermodeld. At this range & convergence the dam
- thing should be a ball of fire.

http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap1.jpg


Guess who Bucky is! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Please stop dragging a perfectly polite thread into the dirt.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg


Message Edited on 11/20/03‚ 07:40AM by A.K.Davis

Message Edited on 11/20/0307:41AM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:48 AM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif A.K.

Looking at her hair, I can see why she calls herself "copperhead."



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 11/20/0307:52AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:42 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- Stop your crying. It seems the Fw is one of the
- strongest planes in the whole plane set. You whine
- because 2 whole bullets take off a wing. Not in any
- copy of FB I have.
-
- I'm a little concerned that all these hits did
- NOTHING to the plane - no smoke, no loss of
- manueverability. Hell, there's even a clear PK shot
- - Nothing.

One can clearly see the damage on the 190 on those screenshots. If you take away 75% of that visual damage that 190 will still be close to unflyable. Every Wurger flyer know that I'm sure. So even if the plane wasn't downed after all those hits, it would still be useless to a human flyer after the first scratch on the wing.

<center>


http://members.chello.se/unni/rote3.JPG



'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'



Message Edited on 11/20/03‚ 08:57AM by robban75

Message Edited on 11/20/0309:04AM by robban75

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:46 AM
kyrule2 nice of you to call me an idiot. It proves my point exactly. Thank you.
=S=
Carry On!

http://www.angelfire.com/space/grumman/images/hellcat5.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:50 AM
Could one of you post a track of this 2 .50cal round miracle shot? I would just love to see it for myself..lol
=S=
Carry On

http://www.angelfire.com/space/grumman/images/hellcat5.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 10:52 AM
not two hits but four

Track (http://www.tradion.de/download/sascha/D9.ZIP)

JG301_Merlin
Kapit√¬§n 3. Staffel
Jagdgeschwader 301 "Wilde Sau"
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de/images/wappen-t1.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:00 AM
Merlin_VFA34 wrote:
- not two hits but four
-
Sorry 4 hits is not 2.
=S=
Carry on

http://www.angelfire.com/space/grumman/images/hellcat5.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:11 AM
Well I counted more then four hits. I seen nothing wrong with that at all, you was within 100 meters not the 600meters with two rounds that was claimed in this thread. Focus your fire on the center of the wing at the close of range without the enemy trying to evade and you can get that kinda of result no matter what plane you are shooting at. And most importantly the people here claim the biggest problem was that the damage model was inconsistant and that was anything but! Looked very consistant from my point of view.
=S=
Carry On...

http://www.angelfire.com/space/grumman/images/hellcat5.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:17 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:

- if any plane in the set should take this kind of
- beating it should be the IL-2 & p-47. No damn wonder
- you always see servers full of FW-190 A-9's!
- grrrrrrr
- This just Fkin sucks!


I don't know why it is that you are 1) comparing the P-47 to the IL-2, and why you 2) think the P-47 should take "this kind of a beating" and not the FW.

Not sure what history you're aware of, but the FW was... one of the best armored fighter planes of WWII... period. Knocking out the engine on a radial FW was next to impossible... and it tood at LEAST comparable damage to the P-47 ... if not more.

If indeed you are correct about the 4 shots taking a wing off, then there is a problem... unless of course Oleg is trying model what happend when shots hit the fuel tank.. but then again, it would explode in flames i would think.

The asking for a more COMPLEX DM is a valid arguement... but asking for it to be stronger, is like asking the 109 to have pheunominal high speed elevator response... it's ludicrous.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:59 AM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- Well I counted more then four hits.

and how many hits have you counted on every singel plane? And take into account that I hit after the plane has allready lost its wing.

You will get the same result when you hit the plane form 600m.

But the point is that all other planes can take more damage like the Me 109.

Greatings
Merlin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG301_Merlin
Kapit√¬§n 3. Staffel
Jagdgeschwader 301 "Wilde Sau"
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de/images/wappen-t1.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:07 PM
Merlin_VFA34 wrote:

-
- But the point is that all other planes can take more
- damage like the Me 109.

I don't know what 109's you've been shooting, but they still seem as fragile as ever... an by that i mean one of the more fragile airframes that i'm aware of.

The problem w/ the 190 DM that I think we are speaking of, is that it either takes a reasonable amount of damage to down it, or a short burst will kill it: thus the DM is too simplified.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:37 PM
WUAF_Mj_Hero wrote:
-
- Merlin_VFA34 wrote:
-
-
--
-- But the point is that all other planes can take more
-- damage like the Me 109.
-
- I don't know what 109's you've been shooting, but
- they still seem as fragile as ever... an by that i
- mean one of the more fragile airframes that i'm
- aware of.

Oh sorry I‚¬īam only talking about the wing of the FW and Me.

- The problem w/ the 190 DM that I think we are
- speaking of, is that it either takes a reasonable
- amount of damage to down it, or a short burst will
- kill it: thus the DM is too simplified.

I also want a "quality" DM for the FW or all human flyable planes. But I can only hope that we get it with the addon.

Greatings
Merlin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG301_Merlin
Kapit√¬§n 3. Staffel
Jagdgeschwader 301 "Wilde Sau"
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de/images/wappen-t1.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 02:04 PM
SC, (or anyone), how do you get the hit information shots; I've not seen that before. Is there some program that can track and display where your rounds go?

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 02:21 PM
Kernow wrote:
- SC, (or anyone), how do you get the hit information
- shots; I've not seen that before. Is there some
- program that can track and display where your rounds
- go?
-
- Kernow
- 249 IAP
-

you have edit the conf.ini file in you FB dir. There is an entry called "arcade = 0". Set it to "1" and you will get a few hit informations.

JG301_Merlin
Kapit√¬§n 3. Staffel
Jagdgeschwader 301 "Wilde Sau"
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de/images/wappen-t1.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 03:58 PM
didnt know there where indians in ww2 shootin 190's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
but yeah, its often inconsistant :\
btw, there will be more bullets than the ones u see as tracers, but im sure u know that/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:22 PM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- LOL! You know whats funny? Before the beta I never
- seen a Luftwhiner complain that the FW-190 was way
- too tuff. Now that you can be shot down easily like
- other aircraft you reach for your tissues. Another
- thing that cracks me up is that most of you are the
- same people who flame the P-51 and P-47 threads.
- FW-190 took way more damage the P-47 and not one
- German flyer said a word...lol.
- =S=
- Carry On!


Havok, maybe I got a little carried away but when you post something like this that simply is not true then you are asking for it. This was obviously a post that would provoke an argument.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:35 PM
Maybe you are right kyrule. But I did indeed use the word "most" which does not mean all. It was directed at certain individuals who posted in this thread and I assume you are not one of them. Some who posted here to whine about this is the same people who complain when the so called Ameriwhiners complain about something they wish would get fixed. Too many double standards around here IMO and too much hypocrisy.
=S=

http://www.fritzliess.com/movabletype/archives/images/warbirds.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:57 PM
S!


sory for my question ...but how do you get those red arrows?????

tnx in advance for the answer /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:59 PM
No problem Havok, we just get passionate. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But I want to clarify a few things to others.

1. I'm not saying just the .50 cal tears off a wing with one or two rounds, sometimes from extreme distances, it is any gun bigger than 8mm.

2. The 190 has a simplified DM, that is a fact. Simplified DM's are inconsistent, and that is a fact IMHO. We just want a complex DM for better or worse. I would rather go down easier overall than go down from one round from 600+ meters at times (which is wrong).

3. This is what I posted about the P-47 in my "wishlist for patch" months ago:

-Increase in roll-rate
-More stability/less round dispersal when firing
-More speed at sea level
-Elimination of the "one hit = exploding P-47" bug.

Now note that I accepted the fact that a P-47 could be exploded by a single round because I witnessed it on one occasion myself, and that was enough. Now I have flown the 190 for a long time and I can guarantee you there are instances where your wing will be removed by a couple of bullets/rounds.



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 11/20/0306:05PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:14 PM
OMG.. comon guys, you sound like children(skychimp\Havoc).... no need to explain what we are trying to say... just reread the post please and stop bashing people who are asking for a Complex DM, no making a plane stronger...

that cut picture you made, you must have gotten the hard one,, because last night again i hit a 190 with 1 short burst of 13mm and took off it right wing... saved the track and replayed with cut arcade... 2 13mm hits and the wing went flying,

first off tell me how to post a link? i dont have server, only my own pc etc... and i will post tonight as iam at work right now...

ps... attacked same dude again, 13mm all over again, saved track.. hit him 6 times and barely no damage... inconsistency... need complex for more consistency... not for a harder plane...

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:22 PM
kcicmir wrote:
-
-
-
- sory for my question ...but how do you get those red
- arrows?????

Kcicmir, do what Merlin suggested in answer to my question above, ie conf.ini file - change arcade mode to 1.

Thanks for that reply Merlin, although it has only helped me confirm that my shooting is sometimes incredibly inaccurate.

If I record a track online and then play it back with arcade=1, will I get a detailed 'debrief' on where my bullets hit and on where I was hit? That would be a real useful training tool.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:21 PM
TNX alot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

never saw that option in conf.ini(whel never looked for it/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )


just want to see how do I shoot ... hehee

My fav. is FW190D ... dont get shot down often ... but when I do it's always the left wing ...why ..dont know...

S!

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:41 PM
yep - i am no expert on the 190 (prefer inline planes 109/p51/mig3) but i can tell you this - the other day i shot down a 190 online with a VERY short burst from mig3 (normal 2xShkas+1xUBS) the engine was not rotating the prop anymore and he obviously was struggling not to roll left - this was a scripted server so he bailed at once to stay alive and i got the kill - i was amazed ! i used to only fire the 1 x UBS ... not the 2 x Shkas - at 190s cuz they would no squat.... maby scratch the paint ! ... now i am actually downing the 190s with those 3 guns ... maby even 2 of them !

realistic or not ... i am not going to decide

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 10:08 PM
problem in this forum is that many people do not seem to have a complex reading model installed.

One of the big selling points of FB was the new CDM. But not with the 190?

This is a no-brainer. But maybe they are too busy with the next sim to work on this.

The thread title is misleading and in itself might prevent Oleg from reading it.

A little polite begging is more likely to get results for anything, than the epic rant technique.

S!

uhoh7

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 03:23 AM
Perhaps as early as late 1944 there were severe aluminium / metals shortages so FW used wood to augment metal spars. Messerschmidt did not have same problem.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 07:32 AM
kyrule2 wrote:

- I read all of your posts like "mush-mouth", that's
- about the only way they are entertaining in the
- least.


- Youbba arba an asba-holeba.



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Holy crap I just fell out of my chair kyrule /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Hey Copperhead: Effba Youba!



<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 11:34 AM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- Well I counted more then four hits. I seen nothing
- wrong with that at all, you was within 100 meters
- not the 600meters with two rounds that was claimed
- in this thread. Focus your fire on the center of the
- wing at the close of range without the enemy trying
- to evade and you can get that kinda of result no
- matter what plane you are shooting at. And most
- importantly the people here claim the biggest
- problem was that the damage model was inconsistant
- and that was anything but! Looked very consistant
- from my point of view.
- =S=
- Carry On...

I have check my track and counted the hits.

http://www.tradion.de/download/sascha/grab0000.jpg


three hits

http://www.tradion.de/download/sascha/grab0001.jpg


ten hits

http://www.tradion.de/download/sascha/grab0002.jpg


two hits

http://www.tradion.de/download/sascha/grab0003.jpg


three hits

I have not counted the arrows going into different direction than the flying direction of the bullet because one hit can create more than one arrow.

This only shows that there is a problem with the FW 190D9 45. I made a little test with the A9 yesterday and it is much harder to kill.

Greatings
Merlin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG301_Merlin
Kapit√¬§n 3. Staffel
Jagdgeschwader 301 "Wilde Sau"
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de
http://www.jagdgeschwader301.de/images/wappen-t1.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 12:24 PM
nice screens. I so far (flying A-4 / a-5 always lost left wing whenever I got down) I mean the problem is as follows.

IN every plane we have sections like

WING
ENGINE
COCKPIT/FUSELAGE
TAIL

the damages I witnessed so far for every plane is
1) WING Ailerons damaged
2) WING Ailerons off
3) WING Wing OFF
4) WING Gun Jammed
5) WING Flaps Jammed
6) WING holes

7) ENGINE OIL LEAK
8) ENGINE on fire
9) ENGINE INOPERABLE
10) ENGINE Fuselage Guns jammed

11) COCKPIT/FUSELAGE Fuel Leak
12) COCKPIT/FUSELAGE Fuel Tank on fire
13) COCKPIT/FUSELAGE Pilot Wounded
14) COCKPIT/FUSELAGE Pilot dead
15) COCKPIT/FUSELAGE Screwed Cockpit (pierced, holes, revi down..)

16) TAIL Elevators Damaged/off
17) TAIL Rudders Damaged/off
18) TAIL OFF

That's what I witnessed in p47, BF109. So it's possibly 18 methods of receiving damage.

In the 190 however I ve witnessed only the following (so tell me if I missed something out..)
WING 2,3,5(only if done by mistake) so basically its 2 and 3
ENGINE: 9
COCKPIT: 11,14
TAIL: 18

For me it looks like there's a randomizer in the Damage Procdeure and unfortunately there's a big chance that the only available results for damage is the "WING OFF" thingy which a lot of FW190 jockeys experience since the wings are almost the easiest spot to hit (especially when applying a lead solution during climbturns or Split-S)

I "guess" that the wings are sectioned so that for example hits on the AILERONS are less probable (another section). This further limits the possible damages / death-results.
Anyone got pictures ro the A or F series ?

http://www.hell-hounds.de/sigs/gotcha.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 01:53 PM
Seems to be a nice summary of the difference between a complex and simple DM, Gotcha. So, for example, a couple of hits on the outboard section of wing, which 'should' perhaps damage or remove an aileron, leading to control problems on any other ac, will either remove the wing of a 190 or do nothing.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 07:20 PM
last night i did get in close behind a 190 and amoung other things shot 1 aileron off. I decided not to waste any more ammo and he limped away smoking.

Seems to me the current DM, while it should be upgraded to a complex DM for sure, is still pretty tough. I poured an incredible number of 50 cal from my pony and he still flew. Most from behind however.

S! uhoh7

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 08:13 PM
Merlin_VFA34 wrote:
- This only shows that there is a problem with the FW
- 190D9 45. I made a little test with the A9 yesterday
- and it is much harder to kill.

I'm thinking that the Dora is overall somewhat "weaker" than the Anton to account for the difference between an inline and a radial engine, although I can't really figure how the simple DM works. I just know it's real simple. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 11:30 PM
Salute

For everyone's info:

190 had a wing comprised of one main spar, and two supporting spars.

P-47 wing had two main spars, and 3 supporting ones.

And for your information, the P-47's wing is now much more vulnerable, and comes off quite quickly.

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 12:05 AM
not quite true it was 2 spars but one did not go the whole way - more like 1 1/2 spar http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 02:53 AM
Actually main spar was of relatively heavy construction and reached from under the fuselage to the mid section of wings. There was no separate wing assemblies for each side. This made wings stiffer than usual and wingroots less vulnerable to battle damage.

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 08:18 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 09:03 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I love it when people try to justify something that is obviously lacking. The 190 has a simplified DM, end of story, regardless of it's number of wing spars or it's/their thickness. Let me see one .50 caliber round tear a wing spar in half from 600 meters. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I don't think Oleg had the 190's wing spars in mind when he gave the 190 a simplified, and therefore flawed (when compared to other planes in sim), damage model.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 08:51 PM
^

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 11:45 PM
Yes, very good screenshots.
Dora wing can be cut with only 2 to 10 hits. That way too little. That should be around at least 60 to 100 hits from heavy caliber MG to cut the wing.

But that's a general error. 0.50 is heavily overmodelled. I can cut B-17 wing with around 40 hits. Was it ever a B-17 wing cut with MGs only? Never heard of that. On the other hand I can land 20 30mm hits and B-17 reaches home with no problems.

There are many such inconsistencies in DM.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 11/23/0307:23PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 12:23 AM
I suggest you watch the dvd Guncamera footage of wwii, its happening to the mustang also 10+ direct convergence hits breaking off a wing which is damn realistic.

You people are too use to flying the old fm which takes 75% of the ammo to damage a 190 its not to weak now with the roll of the 190 you shouldnt be getting hit in the wing anyway. Its great the way it is and damn accurate. you can shoot off the wing of any aircraft with a good few bursts and its the best fb has ever been no super flying tanks you run out of ammo on. So quite your whining becuase its your favorite plane and deal with it

<center>http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LS1.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter
<a HREF="http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=:Leadspitter:&comefrom=top5&ts=1068087655"> LeadSpitters Skins
</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 01:35 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- I suggest you watch the dvd Guncamera footage of
- wwii, its happening to the mustang also 10+ direct
- convergence hits breaking off a wing which is damn
- realistic.

I watched countless guncamera footage and I never saw a wing cut with 2 hits. Or 10.
There was always more than 1 sec fire from close distance, with very good aim, most bullets hit the wing. That means at least around 100 hits to cut a wing.

100 hits on a maneuvering fighter is very hard to do, this is why MGs were virtually ineffective in seriously damagind the airframe. On the other hand I agree that engines should be much more susceptible to damage, the way Bf-109 engine is now.




<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 01:40 AM
lead, its a missing feature. 2 bullets? you can honestly say that is accurate? If it is so accurate show me that every other plane in this game can lose a wing to 2 .50s.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 05:56 AM
Gun convergance settings don't mean "At X hundred meters, all my fired bullets hit the same spot". It would realistically be "At X hundred meters, 90% of my fired bullets will pass through roughly an 8 foot diameter area". So, realistically, if you fire at my wing with 8 720 rpm guns for one second, you're going to send 86 bullets (@90%) into an 8 foot diameter area around my wing at convergance. The generally accepted expected hit ratio of 10% would put 8 rounds into my plane. 8 to 10 rounds of .50 AP would not realistically sever the wing on a plane such as the FW-190 without pinpoint accuracy where the spar would be critically hit with every round.

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 05:57 AM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I guess LS can't even understand the concept of a simplified DM. I guess we are crying because the 190 is one of only two or three planes in the entire game with a simplified (and therefore flawed and inconsistent) damage model. We have already said that the 190 was too tough in the past but now it has certain spots which are unrealistically weak due to the simplified DM. Christ, why do we have to keep repeating ourselves. And having him tell someone to stop whining is a complete joke, he has certainly done his share of b1tching in the past. If you can't understand the nature of this thread then STFU please.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 11/24/0305:00AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 08:59 PM
lest we forget http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-01-2003, 07:52 AM
my thanksgiving prayers have gone unanswered.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg