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porcupine1
07-28-2005, 10:57 PM
Pilot Richard James was Killed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/survivors/pages/picfiles/44-74417/44-74417_31_cf1.jpg

Warbird Pilot Richard James Killed in Fond du Lac County Crash
July 27, 2005 - EAA is saddened to report that a World War II-era aircraft that had participated in our "Warbirds" air show Tuesday afternoon crashed in Fond du Lac County as it was staging to participate in a later segment of the show, resulting in the death of the pilot, **** James of Fennimore, Wisconsin.

The accident occurred in a rural area in the northeastern part of the county. The Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Office and the National Transportation Safety Board, with assistance from the Winnebago County Sheriff's Office, are spearheading the investigation.

The entire EAA family, especially the EAA Warbirds of America, offers our sincerest condolences to the James family.

This Happened in my Hometown.
I loved his Plane Donna-Mite I spent about an hour taking photos of it and talking to Richard last summer.

Ive been out of the IL2 loop for a bit but lets fly a missing man for the chap who flew the real thing!

To Richard a Salute

heywooood
07-28-2005, 11:17 PM
So sad.

Tooz_69GIAP
07-29-2005, 01:56 AM
Is that three crashes in a week with at least 2 fatallities? Not good at all.

HotelBushranger
07-29-2005, 01:58 AM
Yeah, whats going on? Is it a bad bug or something http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Sad to see more pilots and warbirds leave this planet, in body of course. Their spirit will always remain

stansdds
07-29-2005, 04:19 AM
I don't know why, but warbird crashes and fatalities seem to occur in clusters. We may go many months without incident, then all of a sudder two, three, or four crashes in a very short time period.

whiteladder
07-29-2005, 04:51 AM
I don't know why, but warbird crashes and fatalities seem to occur in clusters. We may go many months without incident, then all of a sudder two, three, or four crashes in a very short time period.

May have something to do with the air show season. Most airshows run from early Summer till early Autumn, you therefore have a fairly instense period of warbird flying and unfortunatley crashing.

Bearcat99
07-29-2005, 06:06 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Man.............

A.K.Davis
07-29-2005, 08:37 AM
Ahh...put them in museums so our grandchildren and can see and touch them, not just look at photos.

ashley2005
07-29-2005, 08:50 AM
S~ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Jungmann
07-29-2005, 10:49 AM
AKD brings up a good point--one I'm not sure on myself, but it's a constant subject of debate in the restored warbird community. And that is--should people fly these rare birds, given how many crash and are destroyed, and thus kept from passing on to future generations?


Like I say, the arguments rage. If somebody forks out the cash to restore, say, a P-51D (over a mil by the time you're done) it's his or hers and they should be able to fly it. But these were unstable, user-unfriendly aircraft, designed as weapons, not pleasure aircraft. The pilots who fly them often have few hours in ferocious level a/c. There's very low FAA qualifications in this country to get a sign/off to fly one. And to add to the bad odds, a lot of them fancy themselves air show pilots, do a lot of low level acro in front of crowds, honking the aircraft around in limited airspace to keep it within view of the airport crowd. Most of them stall/spin in--and one more airframe potentially lost to history.

But then, hey, the joy is seeing and hearing them flying, not dusty and cold in a museum. Pretty much any flying warbird has an example in a museum some place, so the modeller or the historian isn't being deprived. Why not fly them--and in a libertarian way, let the pilot/owner take his own chances?

Like I say, I don't know myself--I love to hear a Merlin or an Allison growling past me at fifty feet, but I wince every time I read of a crash, and not just for the poor pilot. I thought I'd bring it up for the community.

Cheers,

CHDT
07-29-2005, 11:05 AM
When you fly such warbirds not by the book, you pay it cash, fast and without reclamation possible.

http://www.wisinfo.com/northwestern/news/local/stories/local_21961971.shtml


At first Warner, who has some flight training, said he thought the maneuver by the plane was really cool.

€œI thought, €˜How the heck is he going to pull out of this?€€ he said. €œObviously, he wasn€t.€

The plane, he said, was 1,000 feet off the ground when the pilot started the roll.

€œAt that altitude, you can€t make a mistake and he did. I€d guess he was going about 200 mph when he hit the ground.€

That's exactly the reason why I do hate to look at warbirds flying in meetings too low, too slow and making aerobatics not exactly in the most clever way.

VW-IceFire
07-29-2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Ahh...put them in museums so our grandchildren and can see and touch them, not just look at photos.
I understand what you mean but I disagree. The most valuable thing for me, as a 5 through 10 year old, was my dad and the local airshow. The planes that really excited me were the WWII props and at that time they did pyro technics and the whole deal.

I also learned another lesson later on when Canadian Warplane Heritage lost a number of aircraft including a TBM Avenger and a Hurricane Mark II in a fire. They weren't flying...but lost nonetheless.

I hope that my grandchildren will be able to appreciate these aircraft in the air and on the ground.

Its been a few weeks for historic aviation with the loss of the Bf109G-4, the Yak-52, and now a P-51 Mustang and pilots in two of the three cases. Condolences to the families. We should remember them for what they loved - flying historic aircraft to inspire current and future generations and show them a piece of history in action.

mortoma
07-29-2005, 01:01 PM
A 109G-4 crashed?? When, where?? I never heard about this. This P-51 pilot being killed is tragic...........

Hoarmurath
07-29-2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
A 109G-4 crashed?? When, where?? I never heard about this. This P-51 pilot being killed is tragic...........

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8241039833/p/1

red 7 crashed at landing. It is severely damaged, but they will try to repair it. The pilot was unharmed.

goshikisen
07-29-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Ahh...put them in museums so our grandchildren and can see and touch them, not just look at photos.

Your point is well taken... there is a finite number of combat flown warbirds. Odds tell us that most if not all of the airworthy examples will run into some sort of mechanical trouble in their lifetime.

I'm somewhat in favour of the recent trend in authentic replica construction. The Flugwerk 190, Seattle 262's and replica Hayabusas come to mind. These reproductions (minus powerplants - try finding working BMW or Nakajima powerplants these days) are virtually the real thing without the history. In many ways they are improvements on the original design because they use stronger and higher quality materials. I don't doubt that we'll see (that is, if we haven't already) many allied warbird replicas as well. A new build P-51 or Corsair would be interesting.

Regards, Goshikisen.

A.K.Davis
07-29-2005, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Jungmann:
But then, hey, the joy is seeing and hearing them flying, not dusty and cold in a museum. Pretty much any flying warbird has an example in a museum some place, so the modeller or the historian isn't being deprived. Why not fly them--and in a libertarian way, let the pilot/owner take his own chances?

Sure, I'm a libertarian. It would be implicitly wrong for the government to dictate the use and preservation of these historical objects. That is a legal perspective.

However, outside of personal property rights, I believe there is an ethical imperative to preserve historical objects. I also believe that these aircraft don't have value just as a class, that so as long as one example of the class survives into the future, history is honored. I think each individual aircraft should be valued and treated with the care and concern given to any object with important history. It time to realize that at a loss rate of 2-3 a year, there really will be just one remaining example of these historic aircraft left for our children and grandchildren. They will be lucky to have an opportunity just to visit these last remaining examples, scattered as they would be around the world. Even if they do have the chance, they will probably only look at them from behind ropes 20 feet away, or gaze up at them suspended from a ceiling. Maybe take a VR tour to have any sort of intimate experience.

By taking extremely high risks now, we will arrive at the situation where absolutely no risks can be taken. The survivors will be locked behind glass.

Stackhouse25th
07-29-2005, 03:43 PM
god people, dont you know EAA Airventure is going on, there is like a million war birds flying thousands of miles to it.

Treetop64
07-29-2005, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by stansdds:
I don't know why, but warbird crashes and fatalities seem to occur in clusters.

Yeah. That, and Boy Scouts of America troop leaders either dying from electrical accidents, or being struck by lightning itself.

Not trying to be funny here, but what's up with that?!

actionhank1786
07-29-2005, 07:10 PM
This is a terrible thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
It's sad to hear of another war bird going down.
I remember a while back, i was at my aunt house in Appleton wisconsin watching the news, and they talked about a Corsair crashing during the EAA show.
I too am split between seeing them flying, and then at the same time preserving them for future generations.
I'd give my left arm to see a Me-109 fly at a local airshow, but i doubt that'll ever happen

VW-IceFire
07-29-2005, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Ahh...put them in museums so our grandchildren and can see and touch them, not just look at photos.

Your point is well taken... there is a finite number of combat flown warbirds. Odds tell us that most if not all of the airworthy examples will run into some sort of mechanical trouble in their lifetime.

I'm somewhat in favour of the recent trend in authentic replica construction. The Flugwerk 190, Seattle 262's and replica Hayabusas come to mind. These reproductions (minus powerplants - try finding working BMW or Nakajima powerplants these days) are virtually the real thing without the history. In many ways they are improvements on the original design because they use stronger and higher quality materials. I don't doubt that we'll see (that is, if we haven't already) many allied warbird replicas as well. A new build P-51 or Corsair would be interesting.

Regards, Goshikisen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
From what I understand, numerous P-51's are rebuilt replicas which use few historical components. While a few P-51s exist that flew during the war, I believe most of them are surplus or rebuilt kits. I remember watching a show on the Mustang rebuilds and it said that most were not WWII aircraft and some were built from scratch. Its apparently the most numerous flying warbird.

J_Weaver
07-29-2005, 08:40 PM
Ah, what as shame. Its sad new indeed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JRJacobs
07-29-2005, 08:48 PM
i knew richard james, we built a new runway in dodgeville together. he was a good man, made some extra cash on some investments that he didn't expect and spent it on his love of airplanes. sorry to see him go. S! richard, watch down upon us.

i must also disagree with the museum movement. planes that don't fly are called static displays, planes that fly should. if we lose some of them due to age, or accident that's what happens. a fire or a hurricane could destroy it just as easily, but the shame would be in letting something BUILT to fly, not fly.

people don't buy these things to crash them, they buy them to fly them and they fly them because they love them, and sometimes love hurts and life happens.

ricardo, adios muchacho, via con Dios

Arms1
07-29-2005, 11:07 PM
saddened to see someone go that wanted to bring so much to us all S!

Brass_Monkey
07-30-2005, 10:08 PM
It's really sad to lose a warbird pilot, a person that has the intrest, the passion and opportunity to fly one of the greatest aircraft in history. It is also very sad to lose another historical warbird. My opinion is to keep as many that are airworthy flying instead of putting them in museums, our children and grand children couldn't care less about WW II history.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-04-2005, 12:01 PM
NTSB Identification: CHI05FA197
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, July 26, 2005 in Malone, WI
Aircraft: North American F-51D, registration: N6327T
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 26, 2005, about 1600 central daylight time, N6327T, registered as a North American F-51D airplane, piloted by a private pilot, was destroyed on impact with terrain while maneuvering near Malone, Wisconsin. The personal flight was operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. No flight plan was on file. The pilot sustained fatal injuries. The local flight departed from the Wittman Regional Airport (OSH), near Oshkosh, Wisconsin, about 1525.

The airplane departed OSH with three other airplanes as a flight of four airplanes to perform the missing man demonstration at the air show at OSH. The accident airplane was the no. 4 airplane in the flight. According to the lead airplane's pilot, the flight of four was holding in a V-shaped formation on the east side of Lake Winnebago at 2,000 feet above ground level. The flight leader asked the air show's air boss how much longer they would have to hold before the flight's performance could start. The air boss stated it would be about another 15 minutes. The flight leader called a formation change to four airplanes in trail and the flight performed a ground reference maneuver called lazy eights. During the lazy eight maneuver, the flight realized that the no. 4 airplane was not in trail and began a search for it.

A witness stated:

On about 4:00 to 4:15 PM I observed 4 airplanes coming from the
west side of Lake Winnebago and they started to do some steep
turns following the shore line. [Three] of the airplanes held a
tight flight pattern and did steep turns [and] the 4th aircraft was
substantially further behind the 3 planes. I noticed this when they
came across the lake and also when they started their maneuvers.
The plane kept far behind [and] followed the first 3 planes
maneuvers. When the 1st, 2nd [and] 3rd planes did a steep turn and
headed east then pulled up and at the top of the pull out they rolled
the airplanes over/turn [and] continued east. The 4th plane followed
but on top of his pull up and rolled slower than the 3 previously. The
plane never finished the roll completely [and] tucked under [and] flew
[inverted] to the west instead of east following the 3 planes. The
plane then turned to the north trying to recover but all I heard was an
acceleration of speed [and] the plane going straight down until it went
thud and quit. The other 3 planes kept flying for 5 minutes or so ... .

An on-scene investigation was conducted. The airplane came to rest in a field at latitude 43 degrees 55.959 minutes N and longitude 88 degrees 18.521 minutes W. The airplane's fuselage, wings, and engine were found crushed rearward. The propeller was found impacted in terrain about five feet below grade. Two of the propeller blades were separated from the propeller hub. The empennage was separated from the fuselage forward of the tailwheel. The empennage came to rest inverted. The smell of aviation gasoline was present and vegetation around the wreckage exhibited blight.

The wreckage was removed to a sheltered area for examination. Control cable continuity was established from the flight controls to the cabin area of the fuselage. All observed breaks in control cables exhibited a broom straw appearance. The propellers were examined and the blades' leading edges exhibited nicks. A liquid consistent with aviation gasoline was found in a fuel valve. The engine was crushed and deformed. The crankshaft was intact and deformed in an accordion shape. No pre-impact anomalies were found with the engine or airframe.

At 1553, the recorded weather at the Fond Du Lac County Airport, near Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin, was: Wind 350 degrees at 8 knots; visibility 10 statute miles; sky condition few 2,700 feet, broken 3,700 feet, overcast 7,500 feet; temperature 22 degrees C; dew point 15 degrees C; altimeter 29.89 inches of mercury.

BSS_Goat
08-04-2005, 12:34 PM
I say fly 'em, but stay away from the risky manuevers.