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99th Obsidian
11-22-2005, 03:31 PM
Last night 11/21 at 7pm I saw the XBox 360 line of 20 people outside my local Best Buy. No offense to console gamers but isn't $600 a bit much for a computer system that only plays games, DVD's and maybe music? I've seen the 360 versions of games I play on the PC and they don't look any better. I know the Console vs PC debate has been done before but I still fail to see why any simmer (or FPSer) would invest so much in non-PC hardware. The real deal killer is that you have to pay to play others via the Internet. I'll confess that I've spent more than $600 on my home built but its useful for more than games. If I want to fly/game on my HDTV all I need to do is attach my computer via a DVI cable. My kids have a $100 Gamecube on which they enjoy arcade games. But for games that are available on PC and XBOX, I'll choose the PC version, pay $10 (typically) less and be able to drive with a FF wheel, aim with a mouse, or manuver with a decent joystick, all at higher resolutions. Apples to apples you can get more gaming graphic performance from a PC than XBOX 360. I'll concede that for some games (like sports and fighting) its easier to set up a 2-4 player game on a console. My rant is mainly aimed at the buyers of games that are available on PC and Console like COD2, Potter, etc.

Chuck_Older
11-22-2005, 04:58 PM
There are two versions, they are supposed to retail for 299 and 399 dollars according to news stories I've heard. Who told you it was 600 dollars?

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 05:10 PM
No offense to console gamers but isn't $600 a bit much for a computer system that only plays games, DVD's and maybe music?
No offense to flight simmers, but isn't 600$ a bit much for a Nvida/ATI SLI Beta Test Video Cards that offer advantage only for computer games?

Each gaming hardware genre has its militant radical fundamentalists.

Owlsphone
11-22-2005, 05:12 PM
I watched the first Xbox360 get sold on ebay this morning for $10,100.

I'm not kidding. I sat here with popcorn and hit refresh and each time I hit refresh the bid went up $500. It was fun to watch.

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 05:15 PM
I read Ford accidentally normally sold the first production Mustang(tm) to a Canadian customer, who kept it for years but eventually sold it back to Ford for a huge Profit. But that's where the similarity ends, as Microsoft does not make cars (or combat flight sims), thankfully.

polak5
11-22-2005, 05:21 PM
same thing happend with the xbox and ps2 im not surprised at all. I remember ther being a line accross a electronic store and they had the news chopper covering the story.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-22-2005, 06:01 PM
Now have I got this right?

There`s a version of the Xbox 360 which youcan get without a harddrive and one with. I don`t understand the point of that. Isn`t the Xbox without the drive useless for just about every game?

3 core cpu running at 3.2 ghz...

Well, in 6 months someone I know will get it then I`ll see if it`s really as good as they say. The last time I was wowed was when i saw tekken on the original playstation for the first time. It was the 1st time i`d ever seen anything spinning about in 3D that you could control...

This Xbox is going to have to be like the Star trek holodec to impress me (well nearly...) and as for gameplay...

Bearcat99
11-22-2005, 06:13 PM
Go figure..

The-Pizza-Man
11-22-2005, 06:21 PM
That's why I'm lookin at the next nintendo. It's gona be a hell of a lot cheaper and it is going to have games with a truely unique style of gameplay.

Owlsphone
11-22-2005, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Now have I got this right?

There`s a version of the Xbox 360 which youcan get without a harddrive and one with. I don`t understand the point of that. Isn`t the Xbox without the drive useless for just about every game?


You are correct. In fact, Microsoft themselves called the $299 core system a sucker system. The hard drive is pretty much required in order to save a game or to play original Xbox games and runs $99 separately.

I've played the 360 and for a console it is great and all, but for those of us new to PC gaming, this type of "next-gen" stuff isn't really all that next get for us.

-HH-Quazi
11-22-2005, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Owlsphone:
I watched the first Xbox360 get sold on ebay this morning for $10,100.

I'm not kidding. I sat here with popcorn and hit refresh and each time I hit refresh the bid went up $500. It was fun to watch.

Yea. And I thought my final $10,000 bid was going to stand. HEHE Boy was I a sucker!

Owlsphone
11-22-2005, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Owlsphone:
I watched the first Xbox360 get sold on ebay this morning for $10,100.

I'm not kidding. I sat here with popcorn and hit refresh and each time I hit refresh the bid went up $500. It was fun to watch.

Yea. And I thought my final $10,000 bid was going to stand. HEHE Boy was I a sucker! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IT WAS YOU! lol.

I still can't figure out the logic behind that guy that won. I mean, there was a buy it now option for 5 grand for 4 360's. Granted that's still a lot but its much better than 10k for 1.

VW-IceFire
11-22-2005, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Now have I got this right?

There`s a version of the Xbox 360 which youcan get without a harddrive and one with. I don`t understand the point of that. Isn`t the Xbox without the drive useless for just about every game?

3 core cpu running at 3.2 ghz...

Well, in 6 months someone I know will get it then I`ll see if it`s really as good as they say. The last time I was wowed was when i saw tekken on the original playstation for the first time. It was the 1st time i`d ever seen anything spinning about in 3D that you could control...

This Xbox is going to have to be like the Star trek holodec to impress me (well nearly...) and as for gameplay...
Yep...

Basically the X-Box 360 Core is the console itself minus the wireless controler, the 20GB hard drive, and a few other things I can't remember. The X-Box 360 package itself is $399 US while the Core system is $299. The funny bit is that the extra items in the $399 package add up individually to more than $399 SO nobody in their right mind should ever buy the Core system...EVER. If you can't afford $399 you probably shouldn't be able to afford $299 either.

Personally I'm waiting...I bought a Crystal X-Box last year and I love it. Great little thing...for $350 Canadian I managed to get the console, 4 games (two were included, one was free, one was Halo 2), and an extra controller. Since then I've bought one more game (Forza Motorsport - great game) and thats going to do me for a while.

TooCooL34
11-22-2005, 08:25 PM
Someone call me when consoles support HOTAS, Rudder and TrackIR. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

fordfan25
11-22-2005, 09:13 PM
iv heard that ALOT of people are haveing major probs with the 360's today. overheating,the 360 scratching disk and systems that are crashing minuts after turning them on. my friend got one today so i guess ill find out first hand tomorow. its nice to know that PC gamers are not the only ones being reamed by M$ lol.

Freelancer-1
11-22-2005, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by 99th Obsidian:
Last night 11/21 at 7pm I saw the XBox 360 line of 20 people outside my local Best Buy. No offense to console gamers but isn't $600 a bit much for a computer system that only plays games, DVD's and maybe music?


Are you kidding that's a great price!

I've spent over five grand building a computer that is used for nothing but games. And for the most part just one game. This is why consoles are so popular.

I'm willing to bet that you spent more than $600 for the computer on which you play this game. The time will come, probably sooner than later when ALL games will be made for consoles and computer gaming will be coonsidered a quaint pastime for old folks trying to hang on to their lost youth.

ReligiousZealot
11-23-2005, 12:34 AM
Haha, I am a sucker for Microsoft Consoles, had the release not been so close to my birthday, I would've been one of those "losers" waiting in line at Best Buy.

I juggle my time between studying, Xbox and Pacific Fighters, so I you could say all I am is a huge nerd, and that probably wouldn't be that far from the truth. I enjoy console gaming, primarily the Xbox, but I have respect for the other consoles. Sometimes its nice to be able to play a game with your friends that they all don't have to pay for.

The Xbox 360 may be a powerful system, but by no means is it more powerful than the computer I am running and I highly doubt that the consoles can ever rope in the dedicated flight simmers or various other gamers. The only way Consoles will win over PCs is if BoB comes out for the Xbox 360 and PS3 instead of PC...that would be a cold day in heck. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Owlsphone
11-23-2005, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 99th Obsidian:
Last night 11/21 at 7pm I saw the XBox 360 line of 20 people outside my local Best Buy. No offense to console gamers but isn't $600 a bit much for a computer system that only plays games, DVD's and maybe music?

I'm willing to bet that you spent more than $600 for the computer on which you play this game. The time will come, probably sooner than later when ALL games will be made for consoles and computer gaming will be coonsidered a quaint pastime for old folks trying to hang on to their lost youth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every time a new console launches there's always some PC gamers that go OMGWTFBBQ! PC gaming is dead!!

PC gaming isn't going anywhere. As long as we need computers for simple things as browsing the internet and writing an essay in Word, PC's will exist.

I'm not saying I don't like consoles (In fact I do like them very much) but we are now at the point in which to get the best out of the new consoles you have to have an HDTV. When people compare the prices of consoles vs. computer they seem to forget to take into account the TV that is required to play.

That said, consoles for their money do what they are intended to do VERY well. The computer costs more because it can do more.

If we're going to compare apples to apples, we must wait until a console can do everything a PC can and only then can we compare prices...which will never happen because at that point the console has just become a PC. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GAU-8
11-23-2005, 01:32 AM
PC gaming wont die for a long time.

im not worried, and when it does, it will be outdone by something so much better, than just "home PC" standards.

SeaFireLIV
11-23-2005, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Personally I'm waiting...I bought a Crystal X-Box last year and I love it.

Yea, a m8 o` mine got a crystal Xbox too. I at first thought it would be rubbish, but now I`m convinced it`s much better than the PS2, simply cos it has a harddrive. This allows it to run games impossible on other consoles like the PS2... Morrowind (a fave game of mine), Fable to name a few.

One thing though. His Xbox seems to be slowing more and more. I`ve helped him take it apart and cleaned out the thing with a dust blower and cleaned it up. I advised he leave the top[ off to keep it cool, but he won`t.

Anyway, I think the harddrive needs defragging. In fact, I`m convinced of it, since it`s the same make drive as mine (Western digital) and he does a lot of game changing on it. Now logic says that the drive must have fragmented greatly and needs defragging, but there appears to be NO WAY to do this.

Is there anyway to defrag an Xbox harddrive? Does the 360 allow this too?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/pilotsfire.jpg
One wants a PC, the other wants an Xbox 360...
They both stand in each others way...

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 04:18 AM
would no be possible defrag if install as slave on pc?

SeaFireLIV
11-23-2005, 04:24 AM
I considered that, nakamura_Kenji, but the connecters are different. the harddrive has been specially modified so i can`t do that. Perhaps there`s a special harddrive Xbox to PC attachment?

SeaFireLIV
11-23-2005, 05:30 AM
"Do I have to defragment the Xbox hard drive?
No. You don't need to. The Xbox hard drive has separate partitions for cache, music etc & there is no need to defragment the drive ever, period. "

Just found some info. Like the above, but I`m still dubious. If you have multiple games in a partition and are always changing them, this would still fragment the drive, so i still believe games in their own partitions can become fragmented. Oh well, I`ll keep looking...

ddsflyer
11-23-2005, 09:09 AM
Why would a flight simmer want an XBox anyway, there are zip flight sims. The PS3 will be more powerful amd has a much wider selection of flight sim-like games. Just wait until that one releases.

crazyivan1970
11-23-2005, 10:56 AM
News flash... Yesterday morning XBOX360 were going for around 2k @ebay. Guy that i work with, sold his for 1350 around 4pm. Dude that bought it was so desparate, he actually came to pick it up with the nice stock of cash http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fordfan25
11-23-2005, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by ddsflyer:
Why would a flight simmer want an XBox anyway, there are zip flight sims. The PS3 will be more powerful amd has a much wider selection of flight sim-like games. Just wait until that one releases.

link to all these flight sim like games?

polak5
11-23-2005, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Someone call me when consoles support HOTAS, Rudder and TrackIR. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Dont hold ur breath, u might pass out.

TheGozr
11-23-2005, 12:48 PM
Console is good for a good pacman game IMO.

Bearcat99
11-23-2005, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by polak5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Someone call me when consoles support HOTAS, Rudder and TrackIR. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Dont hold ur breath, u might pass out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does... in Japan anyway... I distinctly remembe seeing an X-45 like stick... for a PS2... and this was @ 2 years ago. The site was in Japanese though.

Doug_Thompson
11-23-2005, 11:13 PM
I was going to buy a console once. Then I made a list of decent PS2 or Xbox games that didn't have a PC port.

Short list.

Then I eliminated titles I wasn't really interested in, like "Gran Turismo" and Madden games.

The list got really, really short.

Wound up buying a GameCube for the kids so I'd have more PC time to myself.

Console player laugh at us for spending $1K for a game machine, I suppose, then having to mess with conflicts, patches and bugs. Still, there's nothing comparable to IL-2 or Rome:Total War on console. Not yet, anyway.

polak5
11-24-2005, 04:36 AM
oh Bear i dont doubt that some day we might be soo thankfull to recieve trackIR and Hotas on console... I mean we already have Joysticks.
Anywho i remember when they had psp in japan and we hadent had it yet...
guess it will just take a few years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

neural_dream
11-24-2005, 04:41 AM
PC Gaming almost died a decade ago. If it weren't for the rise of the FPS and the RTS, PC gaming would have died before this millenium. The first Nintendos and then Playstation were too much of a blow. Those who don't remember that either played nothing but flight sims or lived in Afghanistan.

Game consoles are tremendously powerful machines for their purpose. A 3.2GHz Xbox for gaming isn't like the 3.2GHz P4 of the average PC user. Maybe not Xbox, but PS3 will again be a great danger for PC gaming. Games for consoles are 10 more expensive and piracy is 10 times lower http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Look at that
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/video_player/popup.php?pi...=6124970&tab=related (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/video_player/popup.php?pid=928377&sid=6124970&tab=related) and tell me if you can have that in the PC with the $399 that these consoles cost. The gaming industry is thrilled about the coming of the new consoles, and they have every right to.

Airmail109
11-24-2005, 10:44 AM
The PS3 is going to be insanely difficult to code for and far more expensive to develope games on than the xbox 360, ID and the guys developing Unreal 2007 have already said they wont touch the ps3 for this reason. Due to its cell design.

Also the Ps3 gfx card is a G70 based card, the R500 in the Xbox 360 is a generation ahead of it.

Also I am now finding I enjoy most games except Flight sims on a console, with a console you can sit back on a nice sofa and relax with your mates, with a PC you cant.

Xbox 360 is also good value for money when u consider it has 3x 3.2 ghz processors, ATI R500 with 48 unified pixil pipelines, running at over 500mhz with 10mb of DRAM making 4x AA efectively free, and 512mb of GDDR3 Ram running at I think 700 mhz to back the whole thing up. TO me that sounds sweet, but I wont be buying it until Elder Scrolls: Oblivion comes out. Oh i forgot to say you can plug it into computer monitos and run it at other resoloutions besides HD, such as 1280x1024.

Dexmeister
11-24-2005, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by ddsflyer:
The PS3 will be more powerful amd has a much wider selection of flight sim-like games. Just wait until that one releases.

PS3 will be more powerful? Yes, according to Sony's false advertising and overhyped specs/performance mockups pitched as actual performance on a system that's not built. It's also slated to use copy-protection that will prevent you from being able to rent games for it, the very copy protection Sony is getting nailed with class action lawsuits for.

And to top it off it's going to have more flight sim? Yeah, I'll believe that when they ship it and the flight sims.

XBox has changed gaming for me bigtime. Flight sims are the only things left I'll still play on a PC, the rest of my gaming is done on the comfy couch on either the TV or HD projector.

As for those of you who do "HD gaming" using your PC, don't you find it a big hassle to do this, and what HD level do you get to anyways?

XBOX360 is one awesome game system, for sure. Maybe steep for $500 CDN, but I've spent quadruple that on my PC.

To be fair, in this forum, someone could ask for opinions of "Real Actual Spitfire in the air vs. IL2" and many would still be saying how superior a PC is to anything else... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
11-24-2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Owlsphone:

IT WAS YOU! lol.

I still can't figure out the logic behind that guy that won. I mean, there was a buy it now option for 5 grand for 4 360's. Granted that's still a lot but its much better than 10k for 1.


Hey, are you Dutch also? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GRYPHON_401Cdn
11-24-2005, 01:37 PM
The main benefit of the 360 coming out as far as I am concerned is that there are loads of regular Xbox's being dumped on ebay, with bundles of games, and accessories etc for bargain basement prices (supply and demand...)
I just picked one of those bundles up for $155 inc shipping and I'm having a great time with the kids, doing rally and other driving games side by side. On the HDTV with the 5.1 surround its awesome. I'll wait a few years before going to the 360

ReligiousZealot
11-25-2005, 05:23 PM
I really think PC gaming is always going to exist, there are always going to be limitations with consoles - you can't upgrade them and make them run something better, you're stuck with the hardware and that's something some developers tend to shy away from. With the PC world, you can build a game for a computer that doesn't exist yet (Example: Doom 3, with the Ultra detail setting).

The advantage to consoles is the fact you and your friends don't each have to have one to enjoy a game together...and you cans sit on your couch and play games on a huge TV screen when compared to the sizes of monitors.

Where I stand on the whole 360 thing is, I really want one. I have the money to get one but I have to wait because my Birthday is in early December and Christmas is right aroung the corner as well. This is because my parents told me not to get one, but I worry about the stock of them because I'm pretty sure they haven't gotten one, so I'm stuck with this dilema: Go out and hunt for a 360, or save my money and upgrade my PC (Track IR, new joystick and pedals).

This relates to my point being it is an interesting market competition, but it really is impossible to compare the two, on one hand you have easy access gaming, on the other you get more immersion...PC gaming is more immersive, Console gaming is easier to get into. Until the day they start upgradable consoles (PCs essentially) with an Xbox or Playstation logo on them, is the day that PCs "die".

Bigpilot4u
11-25-2005, 08:39 PM
I saw one the other day that sold for $3350. Who is stupid enough to spend that much on a $300 system??

ReligiousZealot
11-25-2005, 08:53 PM
Some really desperate fanboy...haha, I am not paying that much, I'd order it and wait if I had to.

SeaFireLIV
11-26-2005, 09:15 AM
Personal computer (PC).

The ability to customise and upgrade.

The ability to add bits as and when you can. I literally saved up to get my first PC which had only the basics, then over a period of 2-4 years gradually upgraded. Windows, Soundcard, graphics card, joystick, rudders, TIR ALL gradually bought over time.

Aye, it`s cost a lot of money, but in an affordable way. Now I have an excellent performing PC and all due to time and patience.



XBOX and other consoles:

Expensive. Pay the full amount- NOW.
Can`t be customised. What you see is what you get. You want to add more cooling, run anything that you know will improve your machine`s effectiveness? Forget it. If it goes wrong, back it goes to the manufacturer and pay thru the nose to have it repaired, and what`s the betting it won`t go wrong until after the guarantee runs out?

Xbox360 or console software buggy ? It happens. Forget about getting any kind of Patch. Expansion packs at a cheaper price? Forget that too! Expect every expansion to be an expensive `standalone`.

Write an essay, do some artwork? Check the time? Forget it it (well maybe you`ll get the time :P ).

ergo... No Freedom.

SO TO SUM UP


PC: You`re an individual. You`re treated seriously. It sometimes takes work to get the most out of it, but that`s the whole point... You also learn something useful about today`s high tech technology.

Consoles: You`re freedom`s taken away. You`re told what`s best for you. Sure ignorance is bliss, until you want to upgrade or you`d like that mod, or expansion, or indepth gameplay rather than just glossy graphics. You learn nothing, you`re as dumb as when you first bought the console.

And you WILL get bored of wonderful graphics with no gameplay - I guarantee it.


Consoles are all very nice in the corner for a quick bash on Dead or Alive or Tekken (2 of my fave brainless games), but don`t ever think they`ll replace PCs...

Aaron_GT
11-26-2005, 09:41 AM
Maybe I should save up some capital for buying a load when the launch in the UK and get my ebay selling account ready to go!

Dexmeister
11-28-2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Personal computer (PC).

The ability to customise and upgrade.

XBOX and other consoles:

Expensive. Pay the full amount- NOW.

Expansion packs at a cheaper price? Forget that too! Expect every expansion to be an expensive `standalone`.

ergo... No Freedom.

SO TO SUM UP

PC: You`re an individual. You`re treated seriously.

Consoles: You`re freedom`s taken away. You`re told what`s best for you.

And you WILL get bored of wonderful graphics with no gameplay - I guarantee it.


Consoles are all very nice in the corner for a quick bash on Dead or Alive or Tekken (2 of my fave brainless games), but don`t ever think they`ll replace PCs...

Funny, but there's two sides to both these coins. I got tired of tweaking my PC for every game that came out. With XBox, I drop the disk in and go. No hacking, no patching, just power it up and play. It's fun.

I was a die-hard PC gamer for the longest time, but I got really tired of everyone having different systems, every second patch screwing one group or another, and the cost of constantly upgrading to be able to run poorly patched spagetti-code just got tiring.

I'm an I.T. consultant, and to me time=money. When I started looking at the number of hours wasted tweaking PC hardware to play the next great thing, I realized that costs of hardware + costs of tweak time far outweighed the feeling of "being in control".

With a console, I don't need to upgrade a thing. Games are designed for the platform, they run on the platform, and the time my XBox is powered up is 100% gaming, 0% tweaking. It's also much easier for developers to build for consoles reliably because they don't have to worry about which CAT or Nvidia drivers you're using, what the next driver version will screw up, and on and on.

"And you WILL get bored of wonderful graphics and no gameplay - I guarantee it"

Well, since I bought XBox, I've played multiple seasons of NHL hockey, logged days (or more) in Grand Theft Auto, played through multiple campaigns in Ghost Recon, raced my guts out in Forza, Project Gotham, Need for Speed UG1/2/Most wanted, snowboarded my brains out in SSX3 (freakin awesome game), even tried Skateboarding Tony Hawk style. I drive dirt bikes, ATVs, boats and seadoos in FarCry Instincts, and don't forget Halo 1&2. Bored? I don't think so, not even close.

Additionally, while I once had my PC connected to the stereo and HD projector, it pales largely in comparison to hooking Xbox up via composite and fiber optics. Pure Dolby 5.1, HD visuals, zero hassle, whereas with a PC I had to string cables all over the place, use video switching boxes, needed a wireless keyboard & mouse, and after a while it was too much of a hassle to set it all up just to play on a projector. Xbox? I flick a video selector and it goes from TV to projector, no problem.

What about mobility? When was the last time you threw your PC into a bag to take it to the cottage for the weekend? I take my Xbox up north all the time, just a few things unplugged and voila, I'm good to go.

As for consoles being more expensive, what are you talking about? My PC as it sits right now represents ~$2500 CDN. I could buy a dozen Xboxes for the price, or 6 xboxes and 6 PS2s, or at store prices, at least 3 XBOX360s. Do the math, you've paid a lot more for your PC than you ever will for a console.

As for upgrade packs not being cheap, check out Ghost Recon2 for Xbox. You can buy each "add-on" as a standalone, which you can't with the PC.

And as far as game costs go, I buy piles of games preowned for Xbox. I can get a great game for 20 bucks, sell it back a few weeks later for 10. PC games aren't quite the same commodity that console games are when it comes to resale value.

Sorry, I was once reluctant to play games on a console with those freaky controllers. I swore by my PC and all the benefits PC gaming offers. I'm not cutting up PC gaming, but other than flight sims, I no longer play ANYTHING on my computer. As a result I don't spend as much time sitting at my desk, my back feels better, and I stopped wasting so much time tweaking.

I mean really, when will you ever have to wipe your XBox and reinstall windows just to improve performance? Not anytime soon.

CRSutton
11-28-2005, 03:37 PM
It is all merging into one anyways. Give it a few years.

polak5
11-28-2005, 04:23 PM
I heard that in Oklahoma some guy bought the last xbox360 they had available at the store. Then he went outside were everyone else was waiting inline to see if they could get their paws on one. Soo this guy that bought the last one puts it on the side walk and brakes it with a sledgehammer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Bet everyone was pissed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Owlsphone:
I watched the first Xbox360 get sold on ebay this morning for $10,100.

I'm not kidding. I sat here with popcorn and hit refresh and each time I hit refresh the bid went up $500. It was fun to watch.

Sometimes stupidity is fun to watch... that's why people read my stuff!

Actually, even asking why people would go for a gamebox shows how out of touch us flight sim types are with the general public. The general gaming public just got home from a hard days work slaving over a computer they don't understand and don't want to understand. They want to throw a game in and blow some zombies up or kill space munchies. They could care less about the flight modelling or the accuracy of a certain caliber gun. They want "cool effects" and things that make them go "wow"!

They don't want to shut down bloated services that cripple their PC while leaving it open to security threats. In fact, they don't want to address security concerns at all. They think confini is a kind of pasta, not a file to edit endlessly to get the most out of a game. They don't want to deal with driver issues or any programming issues at all.

They want to come home, shut their brains off and play a mindless game. They then want to walk into work at FEMA headquarters, send out a memo telling all the homeless to go away and then tell their coworkers at the water cooler that they just bought "the kids" (who are they kidding?!) a new X-Bot so they can continue to excuse their permissive parenting and go on with their simplistic lives!

neural_dream
11-28-2005, 06:28 PM
urm, alright

Dexmeister
11-28-2005, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
urm, alright

Um yeah, I work with computer registries and config files, scripts, code, drivers, hardware, performance logs, system services, multiple languages, platforms and protocols, for a living. I'd have to enjoy it to do it.

That said, many games on XBox are some of the exact same games being played on these so-called "be all and end all of gaming", so they're no less intelligent or complex than what you're playing.

The only reasons flight sims aren't running on XBOX360 is 1. There's not enough of a market to make it worthwhile and 2. Control inputs.

If I could hook up my pedals, trackIR and stick to an XBOX360, that would be the very end of PC gaming for me.

I'm thinking the console naysayers either don't have a console, or have console envy. I have a PC and a console and I don't miss the "freedom" and endless tweaking of my PC to play games. The couch is a much better place to spend a few hours gaming.

SeaFireLIV
11-28-2005, 07:18 PM
@ Dexmeister:

I could reprint your long waffle and you have some good and bad points. But I won`t. Just a couple of points.

Actually, it IS possible to pack my monitor, joystick and comp in the back of the car and take it to Scotland with IL2 and fly the sim. It just takes a little more space and preperation, in fact I did it once when going to the Shetland Islands on the train and ship! Now you could do it easier with an Xbox but would you be able to play IL2? Or any other indepth PC game? Doubt it.

And, why are you not yet bored? I`ll tell you why. Cos you`re having to play upteen different games to keep your interest. How many games did you mention? 13? 14?

Not 1 or 2 0r 3 that`s plenty for a PC gamer in general because of their longer and more indepth lifespan. Oh yes, my friend, you will get bored. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


To sum it down I think you just burned yourself out on your PC. I remember the early days when you`d get quite upset over IL2 and get a certain (old) graphics card to work, etc. Who knows what else you got yourself wound up over with computer components and going online to wrestle with every-one over?

Perhaps, in your case, the Xbox is best for you.

Enjoy it.

(p.s. You still found a use for the PC though. Going on forums with an Xbox ain`t easy).

Owlsphone
11-28-2005, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by polak5:
I heard that in Oklahoma some guy bought the last xbox360 they had available at the store. Then he went outside were everyone else was waiting inline to see if they could get their paws on one. Soo this guy that bought the last one puts it on the side walk and brakes it with a sledgehammer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Bet everyone was pissed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

That story can be found on http://www.smashmyxbox.com

The guys raised $430 for an Xbox360, bought one on launch day, and smashed it out in front of the store. They also have a video of it for download.

IL2-chuter
11-29-2005, 02:18 AM
I finished playing CoD2 (Veteran) a few weeks ago. The single player campaign was fun and tough, actually almost impossible in spots. Multiplayer is KILLER. I was at BestBuy since then and tried out CoD2 (demo) on the 360 and I have to say they really aren't giving anything up on the consoles now, at least as far as my rig is concerned (P4 3.6 6800GTagp - running CoD2 allup). I'll always have a gaming PC but I'll probably pick up a console next spring or summer rather than invest in the next PC generation (we'll see how the PS3 turns out - it will be more than the current hardware mule it is now - heck, it wasn't even originally expected out until 2007 before the 360 thing happened). I tend to skip PC hardware generations anyway.

For those decrying the lack of PC tasks a console will be able to do, with the money one doesn't spend on a PC gaming system after buying a console one could buy a $400-$800 internet cruiser. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Just an observation.

I for one prefer taildraggers (still can't groundloop in IL2) but most other people keep buying trikes.

polak5
11-29-2005, 03:56 AM
Thx for posting the link owl i hadent seen the video before.. was freaking funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I also noticed something, Canada is just like America but with more crakas

Dexmeister
11-29-2005, 06:44 AM
Oh my, I've just been "schooled" by someone else from IL2 forums who knows it all. Or Not. It's amazing how many people here like to cut up whatever isn't IL2. I'll give it to all of you, you've been very consistent over the past number of years, especially against all things Microsoft.

Seafire, exactly how often do you take your "quasi-portable" PC out of the house? Yeah, that's what I thought.

To each their own, but for me personally, whether I have old hardware or new, the cost (in time) of constantly maintaining, upgrading, optimizing, benchmarking, and being careful not to sneeze on my PC just to play a few games is not worth it. I use computers for work, 10+ hours/day, so spending boatloads of entertainment time in front of them wasn't doing my back any good.

As for getting bored, I haven't yet, and the nice thing about rotating a few games on a console is that I don't need to spend an hour installing, upgrading and patching each game every time I want to play a new one. Sound familiar?

Whatever, I didn't expect to have everyone jump up and say "yay, we love consoles!". This is the IL2 forum after all.

CFS3 anyone? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

neural_dream
11-29-2005, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by Dexmeister:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
urm, alright
Um yeah, I work with computer registries and... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My "comment" referred to
a new X-Bot so they can continue to excuse their permissive parenting and go on with their simplistic lives!" .

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Now I don't really know why I go on replying, when you obviously missed the fact that I was the first to support the consoles in this thread.

Aaron_GT
11-29-2005, 08:03 AM
CFS3 anyone?

Well there's a product which takes hours of effort to get to work properly...

SeaFireLIV
11-29-2005, 02:10 PM
Dexmeister, don`t think of me as a know-it-all, just think of me as your friend who is always right. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, consoles have their place, just as PCs do. But I don`t see consoles replacing PCs. More likely you`ll see consoles become PCs in the years to come!

polak5
11-29-2005, 08:28 PM
well thats what a console is... a little pc

Owlsphone
11-29-2005, 10:07 PM
Let's face it, as consoles evolve they are becoming more and more like PCs. My buddy plugged his Xbox360 into his home network and the Xbox immediately searched out folders on networked PCs that contained video, music, and picture files. He can view any of those folders on his 360 and even make pictures from his PC his background for his 360.

Peckens
11-29-2005, 10:23 PM
i like being able to rent games for consoles, but i want by a 360 or ps3 till they are at least $250

polak5
11-30-2005, 12:36 AM
exactly peckens.. i mean right now they are to expensive (well for some of us) and they still have glitches.

I was thinking of turning in my ps2 for store credit then get a ps3 or 360...while i can still get a decent amount of money for it.

Krt_Bong
11-30-2005, 06:19 AM
Console games are for people either not smart enough to use a computer or who dont see the economics of buying a decent computer over a console that they cant fix or service. Most of the console use will be by kids who will play it till it seizes and then they'll take it back to their local retailer who will pitch it in the crusher and hand them another, thereby insuring that the maker will have a steady stream of suckers to rip off

TacticalYak3
11-30-2005, 07:06 AM
An XBox 360 thread? I'll bite!

I pre-ordered one some months ago, and presently near the top of the "line" at a local EB Games store up here in Canada. Buying the new Xbox (we have enjoyed the original since it was released) mainly for the kids (and no that's not just what I told the wife http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

For Dad console gaming is primarily only used for sports (particularly hockey). There's nothing like playing a sports title on a large widescreen HDTV with surround sound. Sorry the PC just doesn't compare in this regard for me.

Now what consoles can't do, at least not yet, is allow me to enjoy simulations like IL-2 and strategy games like Rome: Total War. While not big into FPS, I must confess I prefer the mouse control over the console controller (but I'm looking forward to trying COD 2 on the 360).

Some misinformation in this thread about the Xbox 360. Won't bother to detail its specs and capabilities, as they are well documented at the XBox website and elsewhere, but here are some highlights -

- All gaming is designed for HD 720p/1080i widescreen with Dolby 5.1;

- Assuming you purchase the "premium model" you get wireless controllers and a hard drive;

- With hard drive most previous XBox titles are playable, plus you can store music and photos from your digital camera via one of several USB ports;

- In addition to games, music and photos the "premium" will also play DVDs; and

- Finally it is Internet ready allowing folks to game online (yes at a cost), download game patches/enhancements. Plus, it has chat capability and gamer stats tracking.

Something new is the Marketplace where folks can purchase at stores a "points" card then buy items online that will enhance/customize their games, and possibly a host of other things like music videos, songs (yet to be confirmed), and the like. Obviously this is a money grab, but some folks will like this new feature.

For sure this is an expensive toy, though once again Microsoft is apparently selling the units below retail price. To really enjoy the new system one needs a HDTV, which few have at the moment.

As for problems, there is apparent some folks with overheating issues. It is reported that the problem lies with the heavy power cord, and has been temporary solved by gamers when they elevate the cord to allow for better cooling. I suspect MS will offer a replacement program for those few users with faulty cords.

In the end, the machine is a powerful rig for the price. For those without computers and not technology inclined it offers a lot. Even for folks with PCs, and not just stupid kids with no PC know how, it offers certain advantages. Yes one can buy something better in the PC world, but certainly at a higher cost.

Regards,
TS!

Dexmeister
11-30-2005, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
Console games are for people either not smart enough to use a computer or who dont see the economics of buying a decent computer over a console that they cant fix or service. Most of the console use will be by kids who will play it till it seizes and then they'll take it back to their local retailer who will pitch it in the crusher and hand them another, thereby insuring that the maker will have a steady stream of suckers to rip off


Wow, where to begin on this. First off, I know how to, and regularly need to take apart, service, replace components in, and otherwise maintain my PC. I already do it for work, I have no problem with the task. I prefer to do it for work-related things rather than for gaming.

As for "Most of the console use will be by kids", have you ever looked at demographic info on console gamers? They're aged around 30 and up, so that would be many people right here in these forums.


And to Seafire, yeah, you're right, consoles are going more towards being PCs, more accurately media PCs. It's not surprising considering what they're made of.

And TacticalYak, great points. I hear you on sports on a bigscreen, it's awesome. I have friends over and we play hockey for hours, screaming, cheering, laughing at the deep bass sounds you hear when you throttle someone into the boards http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To anyone anti-console, have you seen COD2 on a 360? Yikes, my eyes nearly popped out of my head.

Either way, I'm waiting until Q12006 to buy a 360. I'm quite happy with my regular XBox with the HD pack and between NHL06, Need for Speed Most Wanted, Ghost Recon, GTASA, COD2 and a few others, I just can't find enough time to play them all even if I tried.

Keep in mind folks, I used to be a guy that played IL2 for 4+ hours EVERY night of the week, so it's not like I don't know the joys of PC gaming, I just found something I enjoy more...

nakamura_kenji
11-30-2005, 07:54 AM
cod 2 on 360 and pc both look same me prefer pc though becuase dislike control pad for shoot game type ^_^. i like console i have many of them snes megadrive/genesis saturn, ps-1 , dreamcast ,n64, ps-2 and psp ^_^ it do so many game type better then pc so i have both i wait see what sony and nintendo console be like before i buy

TacticalYak3
11-30-2005, 08:00 AM
Now I understand why you have that goalie in your signature graphic mate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Indeed, the console market is huge with a wide demographic. The XBox in particular has a fanbase from 20-30+.

In the end it is the experience that the console can offer with regards to either the big picture and/or the other friend(s) hanging out in the living room.

TS!

TacticalYak3
11-30-2005, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
cod 2 on 360 and pc both look same me prefer pc though becuase dislike control pad for shoot game type ^_^. i like console i have many of them snes megadrive/genesis saturn, ps-1 , dreamcast ,n64, ps-2 and psp ^_^ it do so many game type better then pc so i have both i wait see what sony and nintendo console be like before i buy

Fair comments mate. I was originally going to wait and compare PS3 and XBox 360, but PS3 won't be released until later in 2006 in North America. Been happy with XBox, and I think their online will remain superior.

There is a difference between COD 2 on the PC vs. console - the difference between a 19-inch PC monitor and a 34-inch widescreen HDTV. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Seriously, though, all this talk about next-gen is really nothing new for PC gamers, we have had next-gen for a long while now. Still, nice to see the consoles making advances.

TS!

Krt_Bong
11-30-2005, 03:41 PM
Yeah remember SEGA! each year a new model not backwards compatible to the old games thereby rendering it obsolete. I had Sega, Atari, Nintendo PSone and 2 they all were cool when first bought yet down the road they are all going to suck eventually because they cost way more in the long run then the PC I can scrap together from the pages of New Egg. Consoles are designed to be a big splash of color and Gee whiz but after a while they balk freeze overheat and break-down and when you return them to the Best Buy for exchange do they send them back to be repaired?, No! They throw it into the trash compactor because the company will not take them back for repair they just dont do it. They are overpriced overhyped and they're turning our kids into morons cos they cant be bothered learning windows or computing when they can just push play and stare at the TV till the drool runs out of their slack jawed little faces. No this isnt about the wonder of X-Box it's about the greed of Microsoft putting out a product with obvious bugs or suckering someone into buying an incomplete one with no HD I mean what else would be the point of selling it that way unless they were trying to fool the public into buying a product they'll have to spend More Money on to make it useable, Shame on you Bill Gates you little weasel

Badsight.
11-30-2005, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
but after a while they balk freeze overheat and break-down yes , PC's will eventually all break down , but the console advantage here is that you dont ever have to tweak them - they run the same tomorrow as they did today , new game or not

everything you just typed was idiotic ranting tho so ive been hooked . . . .

Akwar
11-30-2005, 10:05 PM
I laughed my *** off to seeing people pay $1000 for those 360's,heck I wouldnt even pay $200 for a console.

Consoles were fun in my youth(Atari 2600,5200,colecovision)back when thats all we had and the PCs were inferior.I gave up and retired consoles after the sega genesis and super nintendo.Good flight sims on consoles havent been made since those machines if any.All I have seen on PS1/2 and xbox are these mindless action 3rd-person flight games.

I never owned but have played PS1's and 2's as well as xbox.IMO they are all junk.Until a console offers a mouse and keyboard for FPS games its worthless.Auto aiming and aiming on a stick is just plain rediculous and you cant upgrade consoles.Im not much of a multiplayer ethier so no loss there.You can have them Ill stick to my PC.

slo123
11-30-2005, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
I read Ford accidentally normally sold the first production Mustang(tm) to a Canadian customer, who kept it for years but eventually sold it back to Ford for a huge Profit. But that's where the similarity ends, as Microsoft does not make cars (or combat flight sims), thankfully.

um microsoft made "combat flight sime " so um yea

slo123
11-30-2005, 10:56 PM
hey i also played a xbox 360 at walmart the other day i think it was call of duty 2 or 3 idk but anyway i couldn t get the controlls right and kept getting grenaded but i will give that the graphics are pretty freakin good

polak5
12-01-2005, 12:47 AM
Yea slo
ive played the pc demo and the 360 demo of COD. And i must say that the 360 is up to par with the pc version.

Krt_Bong
12-01-2005, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by slo123:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
I read Ford accidentally normally sold the first production Mustang(tm) to a Canadian customer, who kept it for years but eventually sold it back to Ford for a huge Profit. But that's where the similarity ends, as Microsoft does not make cars (or combat flight sims), thankfully.[/QUOTE


um microsoft made "combat flight sime " so um yea Umm I think that was intended as a Dig on CFS...

slo123
12-01-2005, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slo123:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
I read Ford accidentally normally sold the first production Mustang(tm) to a Canadian customer, who kept it for years but eventually sold it back to Ford for a huge Profit. But that's where the similarity ends, as Microsoft does not make cars (or combat flight sims), thankfully.[/QUOTE


um microsoft made "combat flight sime " so um yea Umm I think that was intended as a Dig on CFS... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


riiiight

SeaFireLIV
12-02-2005, 06:43 AM
Well, I`ve just seen COD2 on the Xbox360 in store, and I must say the graphics appears AS good as the max graphics capability of my 6800GT 256. Very crisp, very clear. I didn`t see any smoke effects, neither did I see how it performed when a lot was happening (lots of soldiers fighting, etc) I just saw a couple of soldiers get shot, but it was quite impressive graphicly for a console.

As good, but certainly not better.

Bearcat99
12-02-2005, 06:54 AM
Im not a "gamer" per se.. so for what I do the PC is best.. but I have to admit that for anything other than simming.. I prefer the consoles... it is just easier. Turn it on load the CD and play. and it is portable so I can go the the 48" in the basement or the 27" upstairs.... or the 19" in the bedroom.... in a matter of minutes.. no fuss no muss... Since I am primarily a simmer though I will be onthe PC for some time. I do see consoles coming out with HOTAS capability though. I had a Sega back in the 80.. the 8 bit one... with a sim on a card called F-16 Fighting Falcon.... real cheesy looking.. but for me back then it was OoOoOOOoooo but my point is that I used to fly this thing with a gamepad on my right hand and a big 3rd party controller that looked almost like a huge mouse with a dome on it and some extra buttons and suction cups on the bottom on my left. I plugged each one into one of the controller slots and the basically I had a very primative HOTAS.

A Hotas is very doable.. even on todays games... all someone has to do is either make the controllers... or program the games to use existing hardware.. and using USB for the 360 is a step in that direction I believe. It wouldnt be a stretch to make the HD so you could load drivers for extras like TIR or CH products. I think eventiually it will all merge. I know if I were ever single and on my own again I wouldnt buy a stereo or a TV.. I would buy a flat widescreen monitor.... and Build a powerful PC with a huge HD and the ability to be my entertainment center.

carguy_
12-02-2005, 04:34 PM
LOL!!!I liked the video, -only in America!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Just when I was about to think there wasn`t anymore cool to dl heheh

I`d like to meet him ,tell him that he`s ****in nuts and buy him a beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Consoles aren`t bad as long as PCs don`t lose because of them.

fordfan25
12-04-2005, 02:55 PM
i LMFAO at the guys i hear complain about 400 bucks for a console that will last in all likely hood between 3 and 6 years yet feel its completly resonable to pay 400 JUST for a video card that might be able to play games at high levels for 2 years. like iv always said both PC and console has there ups and downs. as far as not being able to play your old games on new consoles wake up. backwards compatabilty is become the norm. PS2 and in the futer PS3 will play there all games that were made for PS1,PS2. nintendo REV will not only be backwards compatable with GC but threw net download games dateing back to the first NES.far as i know 360 can play xbox games.

sure after a few years the graphics on a console will start to look dated by PC standerds, but thats because thay dont have to pay gobs of cash for upgrades. with a console your buying something that will be usable for longer but you giveing up on ever increasing graghics.with a pc you can get those better graphics BUT your going to have to pay for them. how many hear have a PC thats 4 or 5 years old that you have done no upgradeing to that can play games that look better than RE4 on GC or halo2 on xbox? at something other than a slide show that is. how ever you cant play sim games like FB/PF or SH3 on consoles .....at least there are no games up to that standerds as far as being realistic.

Airmail109
12-04-2005, 03:59 PM
I saw Perect Dark on the xbox 360 today and graphically it blew COD 2 away....PGR3....is absaoutely stunning as well. Im gonna buy the xbox 360 when THe Elder Scrolls: Oblivion is out.......The Elder Scrolls series is one of my favourite series....bloody good non-linear open ended RPG.....this time round looks to be stunning....i had morrowind on the PC but i came to find that i prefered relaxing on my sofa and playing it on the xbox.......brilliant game.....and not like an arcade game....really quite in depth!!!!!!!!!

[img]www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ob_pc/obliv23B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ob_pc/obliv06B.jpg http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ob_xbox360/obx14B.jpg

polak5
12-04-2005, 07:10 PM
some people are willing to pay 600+ just for te box http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5203/pic21456fv.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Owlsphone
12-05-2005, 12:35 AM
The people that were selling those got banned from Ebay. Although they stated clearly in the description that it was just a box, they were also clearly trying to pull one over on people.

SeaFireLIV
12-05-2005, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Akwar:
I laughed my *** off to seeing people pay $1000 for those 360's,heck I wouldnt even pay $200 for a console.

Consoles were fun in my youth(Atari 2600,5200,colecovision)back when thats all we had and the PCs were inferior.I gave up and retired consoles after the sega genesis and super nintendo.Good flight sims on consoles havent been made since those machines if any.All I have seen on PS1/2 and xbox are these mindless action 3rd-person flight games.

I never owned but have played PS1's and 2's as well as xbox.IMO they are all junk.Until a console offers a mouse and keyboard for FPS games its worthless.Auto aiming and aiming on a stick is just plain rediculous and you cant upgrade consoles.Im not much of a multiplayer ethier so no loss there.You can have them Ill stick to my PC.

Must agree. I dunno what these people have in life, but it must be way more money than brains if they`re willing to pay a 1000 for an Xbox 360 - I wouldn`t pay 200 either. In fact, If I realised there were such people willing to waste so much money, I would`ve bought 2 Xboxs and immdiately sold them to make a big profit! Maybe next time.

And you mentioned an important thing with consoles concerning FPS`. The crappy auto-aim. Because a pad is so useless they have this - or you simply hit the `air` near the target. I noticed this with my m8`s PS2 and Xbox games, and even then it was still awkward to control.

If these guys got a keyboard and mouse for consoles it would make a major difference. They often say they will, but do they? No.

This is why you get some kids pop up and say, "Can I play IL2 with a joypad?" I even saw one bright spark say that joypads were so much easier to control games like Rome Total War with! LOL.