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View Full Version : George Welch...stealing Yeager's thunder!



TgD Thunderbolt56
03-23-2005, 12:57 PM
Here's a great read about the WWII ace (and Pearl Harbor hero) George Welch: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html

Give it a read. I found it interesting.

TB

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-23-2005, 12:57 PM
Here's a great read about the WWII ace (and Pearl Harbor hero) George Welch: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html

Give it a read. I found it interesting.

TB

tsisqua
03-23-2005, 01:46 PM
It seems to have been embarrasing that the man was able to achieve this with existing technology: a Sabre jet. Why even build the XS-1? I notice that the AF has changed their wording concerning Yeager's flight to read that he was the first to achieve mach "in level flight"

Remember, just because it's a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it isn't true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The greatest injustice here, though, is the man never recieved his MoH because he didn't wait for orders before taking off to engage the enemy.

Now, all you Air Force guys out there . . . if my home comes under enemy fire, please don't wait for orders. Do as this brave pilot did. Do your job, then take the fire from the brass later. I promise, I will make it up to you somehow.

Thanks for a great readhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Tsisqua

Dolemite-
03-23-2005, 03:15 PM
The F-86 was able to break the sound barrier and not crash becuase it had a "flying tail". The "flying tail" which Jack Ridley (Chuck Yeager's X-1 crew cheif) help developed.

After X-1 tests proved that you would need a flying tail to break the sound barrier all existing F-86s had flying tails installed.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/XP-86takeoff.JPG

If Welch broke the sound barrier he has Yeager to thank for it.

Chuck_Older
03-23-2005, 03:21 PM
I didn't think the USAF was ever shy about saying it was 'level flight'. In Yeager's case it was publicity, I think, not 'in level flight' that overshadowed any other attempt.

You have to understand there was a lot of apprehension about mach back then, and in the case of Yeager and the X-1, it was the first to acheive the speed of sound in level flight while under controlled conditons (which could verifiy breaking the sound barrier)- an important thing, if you want to quantify and repeat the process. Apart from politicking, that's important information to have. the story is interesting, but it wouldn't be nearly so compelling if Welch's plane came apart in that dive from unknown reasons that could have been corrected with data from the X-1's flight

Arcadeace_
03-23-2005, 03:23 PM
Its an interesting story TB and has reshaped my veiw of avionic history.

Its also easy to wonder if it weren't for illness, bad luck... what have you, how many more airmen would be remembered like Boyington, Bong etc..

Good read http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Taylortony
03-23-2005, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dolemite-:
The F-86 was able to break the sound barrier and not crash becuase it had a "flying tail". The "flying tail" which Jack Ridley (Chuck Yeager's X-1 crew cheif) help developed.

After X-1 tests proved that you would need a flying tail to break the sound barrier all existing F-86s had flying tails installed.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/XP-86takeoff.JPG

If Welch broke the sound barrier he has Yeager to thank for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Errrrr another myth.....the flying tail was actually British old chap and fitted on the X1

The British project that was ahead of the X-1 was the Miles M.52, it is covered elsewhere on ATS, with the actual prototype well under construction and victory in the supersonic race in sight the British Govt ordered all work on it stopped, claiming that supersonic aircraft would not be needed for another ten years. The one success of the M.52 programme was that it gave the world the 'flying tail' as used by the X-1, F-86 and almost every supersonic aircraft ever since. This was first flown on the Miles 'Gillette Falcon' a conversion of a standard Miles Falcon created to test the very thin wing section of the M.52 (hence the name).
Incidently tests proved the M52 would have indeed exceeded the barrier by a considerable margin. mach 1.5

In 1942 the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Aviation approached Miles Aircraft with a top-secret contract for a turbojet research plane designed to reach supersonic speeds. The Miles M.52 was designed for a speed of 1000mph at 36,000 feet to be reached in 1.5 minutes.
However, at the end of the war, the Director of Scientific Research, Sir Ben Lockspeiser, cancelled the project "......
All design data was sent to BELL in the USA and in 1947 the sound barrier was broken in the BELL M.52 look alike, the XS-1. Also, the Rolls Royce Derwent engine appeared in the USA as the General Electric Type 1!
http://www.aero51.plus.com/html/exhibits/m52.htm

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/bell/x-1.htm

Hmmmm now where did the US get their design from???

Bell X1

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/images/scaled/aec01739.jpg

Miles M 52

http://www.aero51.plus.com/jpeg/exhibits/m52.jpg

Lucius_Esox
03-23-2005, 05:23 PM
Just read the whole lot, excellent reads everyone, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MrOblongo
03-23-2005, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hmmmm now where did the US get their design from??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont forget our German friends and their DFS 346 ... which as always looks too familiar to other famous planes out there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif .
http://www.48specialmodels.com/48pics/DFS346pic/dfs346-7.jpg

http://www.48specialmodels.com/48pics/DFS346pic/dfs346-9.jpg

Source: Evil languaje site http://samolot.tripod.com/niemieckie/dfs346.htm
http://www.48specialmodels.com/de-seiten/d5ge.html

Taylortony
03-23-2005, 06:00 PM
Yes but in 1942 one doubts the Germans would be sharing their secret work with the British unless it was balistics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MrOblongo
03-23-2005, 06:16 PM
Well, the similarities can be only because thats the simpliest aerodynamical shape for a supersonic fighter... Who knows.

DFS 346 have sweep back wings and a T tail. Bothr the Miles M 52 and X-1 have straight wings. Well im not an expert anyway...

wayno7777
03-23-2005, 08:28 PM
I'm gonna play dumb here and ask what a flying tail is...if it deals with the elevator, what did the BF-109 have? The 262?

Waldo.Pepper
03-23-2005, 08:42 PM
A flying tail is distinct in that the entire surface of the tail moves and acts as the elevator. (as in F-15 16 18 22 MIg 29 Rafale etc etc etc).

wayno7777
03-23-2005, 08:55 PM
Got it. Well then the 109's was a little different in that the tailplane's AOA could be changed. Sort of like trim. I think the 262's operated the same way.

ed sorry for the hijack, will sit back and watch, now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifPeace offering:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/FB%20shots/Aircraft/P47DReadingPA.jpg

Enforcer572005
03-23-2005, 10:48 PM
I've also seen them called stabilators....I kinda like that term; I had to see it called that before I finally figured out what they were talking about.

JR_Greenhorn
03-24-2005, 12:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrOblongo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hmmmm now where did the US get their design from??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont forget our German friends and their DFS 346 ... which as always looks too familiar to other famous planes out there <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I always get a kick out of these "who copied whom" arguments.

Doesn't anybody ever consider that there may not have been very much information in the engineering community regarding supersonic flight in those days, and all three of these planes were designed to take advantage of all that was known at the time?

I mean it's not like the start of the design process is deciding whether to copy something or else start from scratch (i.e. "reinventing the wheel"), as some here would have you beleive. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Taylortony
03-24-2005, 01:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
I've also seen them called stabilators....I kinda like that term; I had to see it called that before I finally figured out what they were talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that is correct, the Jaguars were also elevons... ie it was a stabilator (an all moving tailplane) but they could move independant of each other working in partnership with spoilers on top the wings to work as the ailerons.. the Jag does not have any ailerons fitted.......


Wano7777 the mooney light aircraft has the same moving tail configuration for trim, Indeed the rudder and elevators on that are the same design and are one and the same so it helps with production........ the Polish Koliber which is a licenced production of the french robin also have the leading edge slat design used on the ME109

I couldnt agree more MrOblongo it was German aerodynaminists that gave us the swept wing designs and without them we would not have had it, they were so far ahead in many areas.

pourshot
03-24-2005, 02:22 AM
Taken from here (http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct1996/1096wings.asp)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Fixed wing sweep had been built into dozens of aircraft since the earliest days of flight, often as a solution to center-of-gravity problems. Sweep designed to raise the limiting Mach number had been a subject of study since the early 1930s but appeared quite by accident on an early operational jet fighter, the Messerschmitt Me-262, first flown July 18, 1942. The Me-262 had been originally designed as a straight-wing aircraft, but the need to compensate for engine growth and changes in the center of gravity caused the designer to sweep the wings, with the accidental aerodynamic benefit of increasing the aircraft's critical Mach number.

Forward-swept wings appeared as early as 1906 on Alberto Santos-Dumont's Number 14 bis, which made the first official powered aircraft flight in Europe. Later, Cornelius designed a series of aircraft with forward-swept wings, one of them a glider/tanker.

The first jet aircraft to fly with forward-swept wings was the 1944 prototype of the six-engine Junkers Ju-287 bomber. Forward-swept wings were deemed to have the advantage of increasing the limiting Mach number, while transferring adverse characteristics of swept wings from the low- to the high-speed regime, where they were easier to handle.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BaldieJr
03-24-2005, 05:51 AM
Total garbage.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-24-2005, 06:03 AM
I just like the fact the article finally clears up the common mistake that this George Welch did NOT have anything to do with grape juice...or jelly.


TB

Aaron_GT
03-24-2005, 07:17 AM
" but appeared quite by accident on an early operational jet fighter, the Messerschmitt Me-262, first flown July 18, 1942"

It was hardly an accident. In the late 1930s and early 1940s the Germans had the world's most advanced high speed windtunnel. The requirement for sweep came from this.

With regard to the Ju287 the attempt there was to produce something with good high subsonic speed (or a testbed for this) which had better low speed handling than the case for early swept back wings. Without it landing speeds would be high and a large plane with a high landing speed would be a handful and need a very long runway. In the end actively variable sweep was the answer to this problem E.g. Tornado, F-14.

Bremspropeller
03-24-2005, 07:22 AM
But the Sabre had to dive in order to break the "sound barrier", while the X-1 was flying level (or was she climbing ?).


BTW: the Rafale has no "tail" - it's a delta-wing/canard design. (But the canards are "flying").

ClnlSandersLite
03-24-2005, 11:49 AM
But the x-1 was a rocket plane designed with one purpose in mind: To break the sound barier and explore the effects of supersonic flight. The f-86 was designed for active combat duty.