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View Full Version : Time to open the discussion on the Brewster



XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:47 AM
Salute All

I was very happy to see the Brewster improved in FB 1.1b over what it was in 1.0. Historically, this plane was a fine little early war fighter.

However, after having flown this plane myself, and flown against it, I am having my suspicions that it is overmodelled.

It is not a question of its rollrate or turn, more a question of the energy bleed of this aircraft. I am seeing things on the servers which do not seem correct for an aircraft of its specifications and horsepower.

I have the original Brewster Company 239 documents documents copied from those in the Finnish Museum on PDF and have had a chance to read through them again. (anyone who is interested in getting a copy I would be happy to send them if they PM me)

According to those documents, the Brewster lines up like this:

Gross Weight (110 gallons fuel) 5014 lbs (this is with three .50 calibre machine guns and one .30 calibre. (two .50's in wings, one .30 and one .50 in cowling)

Wing Area 208.9 Sq/ft

Wing Loading: 24 lbs per Sq/ft

Horsepower

850 hp at 2100 rpm from Sea Level to 6,000 ft at Normal power

750 hp at 2100 rpm from 9,000 ft to 15,200 ft at Normal power

1000 hp at 2200 rpm at Full Military power from Sea Level to 3,000 ft (max. time allowable, 5 minutes)
800 hp at 2200 rpm at Full Military power from 9000 ft to 16,000 ft


Speed

Max Speed at 17,000 301 mph (482 kph)

Max Speed at 18,000 (Full Military Power) 307 mph (491 kph)

Max Speed at Sea Level 265 mph (424 kph)


Climb

Climb to 5,000 ft 2 minutes

Climb to 15,000 ft 6 minutes

Service Ceiling: 32, 500 (point at which climb drops below 100 ft per minute)

Stall speed without power: 68 mph (109 kph)


NACA did some tests on the Brewster during the early '40's and determined the Zero Lift Drag Coefficient of this plane:


F2A: .030 (worst drag coefficient of all US Fighters)


I am going to do some tests on this plane, and I suggest that others also do so, and see how it matches its historical figures.

Happy to hear any comments as well.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw






Message Edited on 08/23/03 05:48AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

Message Edited on 08/23/0305:52AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:47 AM
Salute All

I was very happy to see the Brewster improved in FB 1.1b over what it was in 1.0. Historically, this plane was a fine little early war fighter.

However, after having flown this plane myself, and flown against it, I am having my suspicions that it is overmodelled.

It is not a question of its rollrate or turn, more a question of the energy bleed of this aircraft. I am seeing things on the servers which do not seem correct for an aircraft of its specifications and horsepower.

I have the original Brewster Company 239 documents documents copied from those in the Finnish Museum on PDF and have had a chance to read through them again. (anyone who is interested in getting a copy I would be happy to send them if they PM me)

According to those documents, the Brewster lines up like this:

Gross Weight (110 gallons fuel) 5014 lbs (this is with three .50 calibre machine guns and one .30 calibre. (two .50's in wings, one .30 and one .50 in cowling)

Wing Area 208.9 Sq/ft

Wing Loading: 24 lbs per Sq/ft

Horsepower

850 hp at 2100 rpm from Sea Level to 6,000 ft at Normal power

750 hp at 2100 rpm from 9,000 ft to 15,200 ft at Normal power

1000 hp at 2200 rpm at Full Military power from Sea Level to 3,000 ft (max. time allowable, 5 minutes)
800 hp at 2200 rpm at Full Military power from 9000 ft to 16,000 ft


Speed

Max Speed at 17,000 301 mph (482 kph)

Max Speed at 18,000 (Full Military Power) 307 mph (491 kph)

Max Speed at Sea Level 265 mph (424 kph)


Climb

Climb to 5,000 ft 2 minutes

Climb to 15,000 ft 6 minutes

Service Ceiling: 32, 500 (point at which climb drops below 100 ft per minute)

Stall speed without power: 68 mph (109 kph)


NACA did some tests on the Brewster during the early '40's and determined the Zero Lift Drag Coefficient of this plane:


F2A: .030 (worst drag coefficient of all US Fighters)


I am going to do some tests on this plane, and I suggest that others also do so, and see how it matches its historical figures.

Happy to hear any comments as well.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw






Message Edited on 08/23/03 05:48AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

Message Edited on 08/23/0305:52AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:56 AM
It is certainly better than it was in 1.0. I don't know if its correct now, but at least it seems to conform roughly to the object viewer specs (speed, climb). In 1.0, it fell short of its numbers in every respect.

In any case, it has handling more similar to an I-16, which would make sense given their similar qualities. Before, the I-16 would loop around the B-239 (I-16 overmodelling notwithstanding).

Does your info give the sustained turn rate? The object viewer doesn't specify.

http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb06894.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb57471.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb11726.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb75733.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80477.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb64472.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb59442.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80347.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb73057.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb48642.gif


Message Edited on 08/22/0311:58PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:14 AM
Salute Fennec

There is no turnrate specified in the manuals.

The claims by Finnish pilots was 7 seconds for a 180 degree turn at 350 kph (219 mph) Obviously a 360 degree turn would see more speed bleed and an overall lesser turnrate.

The Finnish pilots manual for fighting with Brewsters against Soviet aircraft, (written by Capt. Wind) specifically forbids turnfighting with I-16's and I-153's. It says they easily outturn a Brewster.

Quote:

"You have to aim well from the start, because the I-16 and Chaika are so manoeuvrable that you can't hit them after they have seen you approach. Their most common evasive manoeuvre is a fast 180-degree turn. When you notice that the enemy starts this manoeuvre, it's better to pull up and set up for a new attack. It is not wise to try a head-on attack, because the hitting possibilities are the same for you and the enemy. When you have the faster plane, always go for the rear sector shot, and don't risk a head-on. When you have shot at an I-16 or I-153 pull up very tightly. Never get in front of these planes, because they are both manoeuvrable enough to pull up behind you and take a shot at you. Never stay and turn with either one of these planes, because they are both much nimbler than our fighters."

The manual indicates the Brewster turns better than either the Hurricane or Spitfire, which is logical given the wingloading of those two planes. (Spitfire V and Hurricane II) It indicates the Hurricane is slower except at higher altitudes, which again fits with known performance figures for the Hurricane II. The manual continues on to indicate the Brewster outturns the Yaks, LaGG's and La-5's.

RAF74 Buzzsaw



Message Edited on 08/23/0306:21AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:23 AM
I think you will find this interesting Buzzsaw



Subject: dogfight Buffalo vs. P-40
From: erikavg@ix.netcom.com (Erik Shilling )
Date: Sep 29 1995
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military

Re: Dan Ford's comments about RAF pilots fighting over Rangoon.

Some ex-Navy pilots in the AVG thought the Brewster Buffalo,
originally an American Navy fighter plane, was superior to the
P-40. A few criticized Chennault for not getting the Brewster and
were angry that the RAF (Royal Air Force) were flying, as a few put
it, a better fighter than we had in the AVG. Some didn't hide
their feelings and were quite verbal, wondering why we wound up
with the P-40, a second-rate fighter. There were some who even
wanted Chennault to swap a squadron of P-40s for a squadron of
Buffalos.
Chennault was aware of their dissatisfaction with the P-40 and
arranged for a RAF pilot to fly to Kyedaw for a fly off between a
P-40 and the Brewster. I have to admit I thought he took a wild
gamble in arranging such an exhibition. Chennault must have been
pretty damn sure of the P-40. His plan proved to me he was able to
evaluate a fighter plane's performance from the ground, and he
certainly was an excellent judge of an aircraft's capabilities.
Much to my surprise and with an inward feeling of pride, I was
delighted the Old Man chose me to dogfight the Brewster. It turned
out to be quite a festive occasion. Several high-ranking British,
including an Air Vice Marshal, came up to witness the contest. The
AVG even put on an aerial review in their honor.
Squadron Leader Brandt was flying the Brewster, and I believe
he gained "Ace" status over England during the Battle of Britain.
Brandt and I took off in formation, climbing to ten thousand feet
over Kyedaw. We were flying to the east as we came over the
airport, crossing the runway at ninety degrees. When directly
overhead,

"we made a 90 degree turn away from each other, which put
us flying parallel to the runway. After a few seconds we turned
back toward each other, coming down the centerline of the runway.
We met directly over the heads of those on the ground. The
combat was on as our wing tips passed, each pulling his plane into
as small a circle as our ships were capable of turning. Again,
like many times before, I developed the circle into a 45 degree
plane. Each time at the top of the turn, with the Brewster below,
I would pull back hard on the stick, doing a one quarter turn spin
cutting across the circle, gaining a little each time.
When I finally locked onto his tail, Brandt, in a desperate
attempt to dislodge me, dropped his gear and flaps, hoping I would
overrun him. I saw his flaps as they started down, so I pulled
back on the stick instead of the power. I was able to conserve
energy by gaining altitude and at the same time losing speed, I
stayed behind him. When he finally decided what he was going to do
next, I dove back down on his tail. There was no doubt in my mind
that I won fair and square, with no mistakes on Brandt's part. I'm
certain the P-40 was the better airplane.'


Erik Shilling



No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

How many people think this is a p-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

How many people think this is a p-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Message Edited on 08/23/0306:52PM by pourshot

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:43 AM
Salute Pourshot

I hope you realize the Brewster used by the RAF and the Brewster used by the Finns had different specs.

The airframe was the same, but the Finnish model had a different engine and weighed less.

So your story, although interesting, is not nessesarily entirely relevant for this discussion.

Thanks for the info though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


RAF74 Buzzsaw

P.S. I notice there is no exact discription of the fight between the P-40 and the Brewster. Was it a turnfight, or did the pilot of the P-40 use energy tactics?

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:44 AM
Buzzsaw I have deleted most of my first post to show the dogfight part better.

How differant were the specs by the way?


No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

How many people think this is a p-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Message Edited on 08/23/0306:55PM by pourshot