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View Full Version : Wobble gone!!!!!



FA_Whisky
02-17-2006, 03:21 AM
As you might have noticed the some planes have a bit of a so called wobble. I think this wobble occures when you move the stick to fast. When you jerk it around the plane wobbles a lot. When you go wasy on the stick the wobble is gone. When you look at a joystick you may see it not as large as the stick in a WWII fighter. So when you move it only a few mm the controls jump from one position to the other.
I've done some testing and found that when you lengten the joystick you won't be able(or less) to move it to fast. Stronger springs might also help.
I've "redesigned" my old sidewinder and its now about 30/35cm high. This helps a lot.
Gonna build another one that will stand on the ground and will be about 50/60cm high. To do this you will need a high resolution joystick though.
It works for me; can do 800 meters sniper shots with the P51 now.....

rnzoli
02-17-2006, 03:31 AM
Good to hear! Begging for pictures PLEASE!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Edit: what's your joystick resolution? How many discreet values are possible within the moving range?

F0_Dark_P
02-17-2006, 03:35 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Nahoj/worthless.gif

i want to se that!

FA_Whisky
02-17-2006, 03:58 AM
i want to se that!

working on that.... I think its 256 bit

128bit both ways.
I use the old optical sidewinder joysticks for it. You can buy them here for about "10/15.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

FatBoyHK
02-17-2006, 08:37 AM
yes whisky, I have came to the same conclusion with you, and I have explained it several times in various forums.

Instead of elongating the joystick (which is quite hard to do) there are two alternative.... First is to reduce the joystick senisitivity, like 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70, instead of 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100, so you have the same joystick deflection to represent less amount of in-game deflection.

the second way, which I have just discovered, is too use filtering. It slow down the joystock movement a bit. But the filtering can't be overused, 50 seem to be the maximum, otherwise it will slow down the response tooooo much.

LEBillfish
02-17-2006, 09:09 AM
Glad the original poster fixed his problem.....Yet if changing your stick (altering its design) fixed "the wobbles"......Then you didn't have them in the first place..........Frankly WHisky, many want ntrks of wobbles which I wish I had from my first bout as they were extreme....Yet I just noticed something...Your Avatar.

THAT is what the wobbles issue really looks like. Plane jumps all over the place as the control surfaces are fluttering. Your Avatar showing what the nose of the plane does as a result, and your view naturally through the sight.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
there are two alternative.... First is to reduce the joystick senisitivity, like 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70, instead of 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100, so you have the same joystick deflection to represent less amount of in-game deflection.

the second way, which I have just discovered, is too use filtering. It slow down the joystock movement a bit.

I'm using the approach of moving the sensitivity down, although I prefer to keep the last value at 100 if only for ground handling, I mean the rudder of course. Because of brakes being linked to it.

At the same time, I don't like to reduce too much the first steps in the profile curve (like using 1 4 8 15 etc), because then the change along the joystick range of throw gets too steep, so the response gets too diferent around the center and the extremes. So I start with 20 and set a rising curve to 100. Currently, I'm playing with curves like:

1RZ1=0 20 22 25 28 32 38 48 60 82 100 10

Filtering a bit, too. That's rudder btw. The other axes I set the same, but no filter.

I'm getting convinced that it would be a great thing if we could set the joystick profile individually for each plane. Maybe from armament screen. Until the time we can do that arrives, FoolTrottel's IL2-Sticks is the way to go IMO. The thing is that different planes fly differently.

Cheers,
S.

LEBillfish
02-17-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
I'm getting convinced that it would be a great thing if we could set the joystick profile individually for each plane. Maybe from armament screen. Until the time we can do that arrives, FoolTrottel's IL2-Sticks is the way to go IMO. The thing is that different planes fly differently.

Cheers,
S.

I disagree.....Here is why....

The stick settings/profiles should be set up to accommodate an individual players idiosyncrasies and the sims all inclusive in general.

What you are asking for is to essentially be able to tweak each planes handling characteristics to either your own tastes or to an extreme so they all handle the same (to the closest degree possible).

That simply wasn't the case....Some planes were inherently stable, others twitchy almost outright dangerous to fly as the number of training and even take-off/landing crashes for those experienced with them testify to.

Though I'm sure there was some minimal adjustment on aircraft controls....It would have been nothing to the degree we have in a joystick (WWII standards.....today's fly by wire maybe).

The stick adjustments we have are "intended" IMLTHO to make up for the lack of realistic feedback you would get when really flying, differences in sticks, the natural loss of connection (in contrast to really flying one of these planes) being a PC sim, player hand eye idiosyncrasies, and probably to some degree the loss of "control" a desktop joystick has compared to the real thing (as a 2.5' long stick with real-time feedback, without twist would be much more precise then what you sit on your desk....More throw for the same resulting input).

By adjusting the settings on a "plane to plane" basis, you're not tweaking in the stick inputs to make up for the problems above, you're really tweaking the FM of each plane to fly more like each other or at the very least make up for on a case by case basis your lack or over control of inputs based on the planes characteristics.......The more forgiving the plane the harder the input, the less forgiving compensating with stick adjustments.

Personally I simply believe that to be "wrong". As the intent here if all things were perfect to let you feel the differences from plane to plane. The method asked for above frankly makes it so no one would ever know.

To do the above and for those having seperate profiles is simply "gaming the sim"......

as to convergence however that I would buy, though it's not that hard to alter it as is.

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
I disagree.....Here is why....
.../...
What you are asking for is to essentially be able to tweak each planes handling characteristics to either your own tastes or to an extreme so they all handle the same (to the closest degree possible).

Not really, what I was saying is not about how the planes handle, but rather how I do handle the planes... how do I handle my joystick, actually. I see that as not being the same thing.

If you think of it, what I was referring to would simply amount to do in a more convenient way what I already can (and do) adjust, by exiting the game and changing the joystick profile when I'm about to change between major types of planes. It's just a matter of doing that more comfortably, from the user interface.

Cheers,
S.

P.S.: *Edit* I had skipped this

By adjusting the settings on a "plane to plane" basis, you're not tweaking in the stick inputs to make up for the problems above, you're really tweaking the FM of each plane
That really seems to me a very loong shot, I'm not touching the FM at all by adjusting the joystick, not any more than if I raise the height of my chair and change the position of my arm while holding the joystick... It's a matter changing my input to the FM.

LEBillfish
02-17-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
I disagree.....Here is why....
.../...
What you are asking for is to essentially be able to tweak each planes handling characteristics to either your own tastes or to an extreme so they all handle the same (to the closest degree possible).

Not really, what I was saying is not about how the planes handle, but rather how I do handle the planes... how do I handle my joystick, actually. I see that as not being the same thing.

If you think of it, what I was referring to would simply amount to do in a more convenient way what I already can (and do) adjust, by exiting the game and changing the joystick profile when I'm about to change between major types of planes. It's just a matter of doing that more comfortably, from the user interface.

Cheers,
S.

P.S.: *Edit* I had skipped this

By adjusting the settings on a "plane to plane" basis, you're not tweaking in the stick inputs to make up for the problems above, you're really tweaking the FM of each plane
That really seems to me a very loong shot, I'm not touching the FM at all by adjusting the joystick, not any more that if I raise the height of my chair and change the position of my arm while holding the joystick... It's a matter changing my input to the FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



That's untrue......Otherwise you'd adjust it one time.....Not each time you're changing planes.

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
That's untrue......Otherwise you'd adjust it one time.....Not each time you're changing planes.

Different planes...different FM's
I am adjusting to them, not conversely

Cheers,
S.

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 10:05 AM
Lebillfish,

I'm not trying to be controversial here, but bear with me for a minute, please:

I have two joysticks connected to my PC, an X52 (because of the HOTAS) and a Cyborg Evo Force (because of the FF). I generally use the Cyborg for the control column, I like the FF very much, but once in a while I go to the Controls screen (without exiting the game) and switch the relevant axes to the X52 and take it for a spin, it's a great stick (if only it would have FF).

Well, they do feel quite different, different throw, different smoothness (as in the X52 has lots and the Evo none http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), etc. So of course, the profiles I've set for them in config.ini are different too. Now, let's suppose that I would take as a habit flying the single-engined planes with the Evo, and the twin-engined ones with the X52. I could switch from one to the other in, like 30 seconds, without exiting the game.

Are you saying that if I had this habit (which I don't) I would be somehow 'tweaking' the FM of the planes? If you think so, well, I can't really see how I am doing anything at all on the FM. And that's what changing profiles for one joystick in the arming screen would amount to, just that.

Cheers,
S.

LEBillfish
02-17-2006, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
That's untrue......Otherwise you'd adjust it one time.....Not each time you're changing planes.

Different planes...different FM's
I am adjusting to them, not conversely

Cheers,
S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you didn't read my post above that discussed changing the stick per plane. As if we sat you in a real J8 and said fly it, then a P51 you'd not be able to adjust the controls to make the P51 fly easier like the J8. So if you are changing the settings "PER PLANE".....You are not adjusting it to make up for the difference of flying a real plane vs. the short comings of a sim..........

You're making each PLANE fly different for your tastes via stick input......Hence the plane not flying as it should, yet flying more how you want it to.........

adjusting....the....FM....based on response of input from stick.

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:

I guess you didn't read my post above that .../...

See above.
And then, suit yourself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have made my point already, that's it.

Cheers,
S.

P.S.: I do read all posts on the threads I reply to. Thoroughly.

LEBillfish
02-17-2006, 10:11 AM
So let me see if I understand.........

If a BF109 flys perfect for my style and stick settings.....Yet a FW190 is very unstable in comparison stalling often for me.......If I have a seperate setting for the FW190 that tones down its response from rudder/aileron/elevator input, no longer stalling....now stable as my BF109 (though granted losing some of it's ability).....Yet never the less almost impossible to stall...

You do not see how I just altered the FM of the 190 to be more like the 109 as far as stability?

Really at that point it's just gaming the sim...

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So let me see if I understand.........
Lebillfish,

Unlike you did a couple of posts ago, I'm not assuming that if you disagree with me, it must be because you're not reading what I post, or because you're failing to understand what I'm saying. At this point, I think that I've explained clearly enough which is my point of view, my way of thinking. And if you still disagree with me, that's fine.

By the same token, it's not that I have failed to read or understand what you're saying. I see what you mean, I understand your reasoning. However, I consider that reasoning as erroneous, that's all. I have no need to convince you, or showing you a better thruth. I also have no need to obtain from you an "OK, you were right". I just disaggree with you, and that should be equally fine, too. Whoever else reads what we're saying can make their own mind about it. And post their own view if they wish. It isn't a terribly important matter, either.

Having said that, my suggestion is, let's move on, End Of Story.

Have a nice forum session.

Cheers,
S.

FatBoyHK
02-17-2006, 02:42 PM
At the same time, I don't like to reduce too much the first steps in the profile curve (like using 1 4 8 15 etc), because then the change along the joystick range of throw gets too steep, so the response gets too diferent around the center and the extremes. So I start with 20 and set a rising curve to 100

Yes I agree with you. My pitch setting is 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84, with a filter of 40. the slower the value increase, the more linear the response curve would be.

DaimonSyrius
02-17-2006, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
with a filter of 40
Hi FBHK,

I did try some time ago values of 30 or 40 for filtering, but I wasn't comfortable with the feeling that my inputs were being delayed... How do you deal with that? My problems were when trying to keep my aim on a plane that I was already shooting at, when it would suddenly break, or it would start jinking. Admittedly, I guess in reality the pursuer wouldn't try to jink following the bandit, but the I see the slower response as a bit of a problem when trying to respond to a sudden break.

Cheers,
S.