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darkhorizon11
10-06-2005, 04:30 PM
Haha I bet I got everyone's attention.

What were some realistic matchups between these aircraft in the skies over Western Europe.
I know the B and C models of the Mustang were common up until they were replaced by the D model in mid-44 but what were the most common version the 109 and 190 were they up against. Were Antons and Friedrichs as common as Gustavs or were they used more on the Eastern front, and what JG units operated them? Also what units operated the Me262 on the western front besides the JV44 and JG7 in Spring of 45?

Thanks!

mandrill7
10-06-2005, 04:42 PM
It depends on the exact month we're talking about. THe P-51B started being phased in in Winter 44. At that time, most of its opposition would have been 190-A6's or A8's and 109-G6's. The split in German fighters would have been about 40/60 ratio.

As time went on, the G6's would have given way to G14's. In late Fall and Winter 44-45, we'd start getting 190-D9's and 109-G10's. I think Kurfursts would start arriving in early 45.

Danschnell
10-06-2005, 04:53 PM
Many units were flying the Me262 by the war's end. Fuel was hard to come by, and even more so trained pilots, so the number of Me-262s in the air in any one day was very low, despite the fact that the Me-262 was a very common aircraft on the Western front by the end of the war.

The units in 1945 were as follows:

EJG 2
KG(J) 6
JG 7
10/NJG 11
JV 44
KG 51
KG(J) 54

faustnik
10-06-2005, 05:10 PM
Well, I guess an Fw190 time line would be:

Fw190A1 - Fall 1941
Fw190A2 - Spring '42
Fw190A3 - Summer '42-'43
Fw190A4 - Fall '42-Spring '44
Fw190A5 - Spring '43 - Summer '44
Fw190A6 - Summer '43 - Fall '44
Fw190A7 - Spring '44
Fw190A8 - Summer '44 - War's End
Fw190A9 - Fall '44 - End
Fw190D-9 - Late Fall '44 - End
Ta-152 Spring '45

That's not official, just of the top.

p1ngu666
10-06-2005, 06:36 PM
sounds about right faustnik, was the a7 like a a6 or a8?
just the radio was different if i remmber correctly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

first mustangs ops (merlin engine) where december 43,D's where just coming into service around D day i think

D9's rolled of the lines in september i think.

109s, mostly g6 and g6late for the first half, mw50 ones (g14) coming in at march i think, but only a few to try and catch mossies (not much luck) post D day for widespread alcholic 109s, alcholism bulit up quickly in 109s aparently, perhaps the 109s knew their fate? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tomtheyak
10-06-2005, 06:50 PM
IIRC the first P-51D was delivered to the 4thFG for the shuttle mission to Russia on or about the 20th June 1944 and started appearing in other groups from this date (as early D with no dorsal fin).

The Fw190A7 is externally identical to the A8 i think.... but yeah most common opponent to th -51 would have been A7/8 and for 109 the G6 and later

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 07:08 PM
Salute

AFAIK, the matchups of the game aircraft on a historical basis from the start of the P-51's deployment would be this:

December 1943: P-51B versus 109G6 Late, 190A6, 190A8.

February 1944: RAF P-51C, (called Mustang III, but not the Mustang III we have in game) with Malcolm hood becomes quite common. Some USAF use, none in Med.

April 1944: 109G6AS appears in small numbers, most assigned in high alt air superiourity role to cover 190's and gunpod equipped 109G6's attacking B-17/B-24 formations. P-51D-5 in service. RAF Mustang III begins first use on 150 octane fuel. It is based in Britain, with operations in over the Channel, France, Belgium, Norway and the Baltic. No escort into Germany or basing in France.

May 1944: First use of Me-163. Based only in Germany. Continues in VERY limited numbers till end of war.

July 1944: 109G14 comes into general use.

July 1944: P-51D-20 appears.

September 1944: Game's 190D-9 1944 version with C3 injection in use in moderate numbers. Me-262A-2 in Fighter-Bomber version in some very limited use.

October 1944: 109G10 in general use.

November 1944: 190A9 in use in small numbers. (some question about this, some claiming earlier, some later, but very likely the version we have in game first appears in November) Also first official usage of Me-262A-1 in Fighter role at this time in very small numbers. Typically for both types of Me-262's, the aircraft operated in pair size formations, but often were encountered alone, especially after they had made their attacks and were returning to base.

December 1944: 109K4 in general use.

January 1945: 190D-9 with MW-50 replaces 1944 version. Some D-9's used as CAP over Me-262 bases, but also in general air superiority and ground attack. Still seen in only moderate numbers.

April 1945: He-162, TA-152 in use in VERY small numbers.

All use of both sides Fighters in the Mediterranean and over Italy and Romania was generally of Fighter types a little older than the types in service in Northwest Europe. Ie. a P-51D-5 appears in April of 1944 in Britain, it appears in the Med in June of '44. The Germans were still using some 190A4's in the Med in 1944. Axis satellite nations also tended to be equipped with older model aircraft, ie. the Romanians went through a mix of G2's, G4's, early G6's, and G14's. Finns had 50/50 blend of G2's and G6 lates.

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 08:05 PM
Salute

As far as the tempo of Luftwaffe activity versus P-51's would likely be seen:

Most of the P-51's were assigned to Fighter Groups belonging to the 8th AAF, which was primarily devoted to escorting heavy bombers in their Strategic Bombing campaign. Eventually, all the 8th AAF Groups except the 56th equipped with P-47's, were flying P-51's.

From December of 1943 till June 6 1944, the Jagdfliegers were focused on defeating the USAAF Strat bombing campaign. Very few Fighters were based in France defending it. The intensity of the campaign to defeat the Strat bombers was at highest during this stage of the war, and for the Germans, this was their aerial 'Verdun', with the great majority of the experienced Luftwaffe Jagdfliegers killed during this six month period. They were replaced, but by junior pilots with 1/4 of the flight training time their predecessors had. So during this period P-51 pilots would see a high intensity of combat, primarily in the escort role.

After the invasion, according to plan, the Luftwaffe committed a large part of its Fighter forces to try to contest the air over the Allied beachhead. However, they were very quickly decimated. During this time, June/July '44, the attacks on the 8th AAF Heavies tailed off considerably.

There was only one P-51 Group assigned to the 9th Air Force in the tactical role, the 354th.

After the breakout in France, and the defeat of the Luftwaffe there, the Jagdfliegers were pulled back to bases in Germany. Galland, the General of Fighters formulated a plan to accumulate a large force of Fighters. (at least 1000 planes) to use in a "Big Blow" against the 8th AAF. Galland believed that if he waited for the perfect moment, when he could commit a single massive interception, he would be able to shoot down some 300 USAAF heavy bombers and damage many more, and thus force the Americans to pause their bombing campaign. He was prepared to lose some 500 Fighters shot down in this attempt. To this end, German fighter resources were held back and not committed fully to attacks on the Strat bombers. Focus was on training new pilots, and building up the force.

P-51's would see less intense combat during this period, although they would see a variety of enemy aircraft types.

However, Hitler's plans for the Ardennes superceded Galland's ideas, and the carefully hoarded reserve of pilot's and aircraft, (some 1800 planes) was committed to support the ground troops in their attack in December '44.

The Jagdfliegers were once again decimated in their fight with the USAAF and British, as well as in the abortive and wasteful 'Operation Bodenplatte'.

The 8th AAF P-51's were committed in a lower level tactical air superiority role during the Battle of the Ardennes, and the general level of combat was quite intense.

After January of 1945, the efforts of the Luftwaffe became progressively more fragmented and ineffective, as the RAF and USAAF ranged over the whole of the shrinking Reich. Only the Jets were able to dominate at times, but were vulnerable during landings and takeoffs. And they were too few to make any significant difference to the control of the air.

During this period, the number of Germans encountered by P-51 pilots dramatically declined, although a variety of exotic aircraft types might be seen.

p1ngu666
10-06-2005, 08:50 PM
the g6as we have ingame, is actully mislabeled i think, it should be g14/as...

Takata_
10-06-2005, 09:08 PM
S~ Buzzsaw,

According to Luftwaffe Flugzeugbestand, this is what was on hand (all JG), 1st january 1945:

Bf109G-14...705
Bf109G-10...250
Bf109K-4....167
Bf109G-6.....68 (all types)
Bf109G-2......9
Total......1199

Fw190A-8....574
Fw190D-9....238
Fw190A-9....118
Fw190A-5......8
Fw190A-3......8
Fw190A-6......5
Fw190F-8......2
Fw190A-4......2
Fw190A-2......1
Total.......956

- The first production 190A-8 in March 1944:
February 1944
Factory.....prod/plan
Foke-Wulf...0/136
Ago.........0/108
March 1944
Foke-Wulf...71/170
Ago..........0/160

Before March 44, only A6 and A7 were produced, A8 is planned in february but none build - A7 seems to be rebuild as A8 later. As my table show, none were left in jan 1945 (only two left in dec 1944).

- About Fw190A-9(JagdG, 1st of the month)
Sep 1944.....5 (start aug 44 - 5 delivered)
Oct 1944....34
Nov 1944...172
Dec 1944...116
Jan 1945...118

- About Fw190D-9(JG)
Oct 1944....18 (start sep.44 - 18 delivered)
Nov 1944....56
Dec 1944...124
Jan 1945...238

- About Fw190A-8(JG)
May 1944....159 (start apr.44 - 249 delivered )
Jun 1944....295
Jul 1944....273
Aug 1944....608
Sep 1944....570
Oct 1944....703
Nov 1944....942
Dec 1944....866
Jan 1945....574

- About Bf109G-14 (JG)
Aug 1944.....21 (start jul.44 - 21 delivered)
Sep 1944....213
Oct 1944....755
Nov 1944...1403
Dec 1944...1201
Jan 1945....705

- About Bf109G-10 (JG)
Nov 1944.....18 (start oct.44 - 18 delivered)
Dec 1944....202
Jan 1945....250

- About Bf109K-4 (JG)
Nov 1944....155 (start oct.44 - 167 delivered)
Dec 1944....207
Jan 1945....167

and so on...
S~
Takata.

VW-IceFire
10-06-2005, 09:18 PM
Don't forget that some or many of the German fighters that the P-51 faced were bomber killers with extra gun gondolas on the wings and occasionally extra armor plating.

Takata_
10-06-2005, 09:20 PM
1st Oct.1944, situation was like this in JG:
Bf 109G-14 Oct-44 755
Bf 109G-6 Oct-44 350
Bf 109G-2 Oct-44 15
Bf 109G-5 Oct-44 1
Bf 109K-4 Oct-44 0
Bf 109G-10 Oct-44 0
Total Bf 109 Oct-44 1121

Fw 190A-8 Oct-44 703
Fw 190A-9 Oct-44 34
Fw 190A-6 Oct-44 22
Fw 190D-9 Oct-44 18
Fw 190A-5 Oct-44 12
Fw 190F-8 Oct-44 7
Fw 190A-3 Oct-44 7
Fw 190A-4 Oct-44 4
Fw 190G-2 Oct-44 1
Fw 190A-7 Oct-44 1
Total Fw 190 Oct-44 809

- 1st Nov.1944:
Bf 109G-14 Nov-44 1403
Bf 109G-6 Nov-44 175
Bf 109K-4 Nov-44 155
Bf 109G-10 Nov-44 18
Bf 109G-2 Nov-44 6
Bf 109G-5 Nov-44 4
Total Bf 109 Nov-44 1761

Fw 190A-8 Nov-44 942
Fw 190A-9 Nov-44 172
Fw 190D-9 Nov-44 56
Fw 190A-6 Nov-44 16
Fw 190A-5 Nov-44 9
Fw 190A-3 Nov-44 6
Fw 190A-4 Nov-44 3
Fw 190F-8 Nov-44 2
Fw 190A-7 Nov-44 2
Fw 190G-2 Nov-44 1
Total Fw 190 Nov-44 1209

- 1st Dec.144: (dec-44 total/delivered from factory during the month)
Bf 109G-14 Dec-44 1201/ 243
Bf 109K-4 Dec-44 207/ 147
Bf 109G-10 Dec-44 202/ 268
Bf 109G-6 Dec-44 150/ 1
Bf 109G-2 Dec-44 6/ 0
Total Bf 109 Dec-44 1766/ 659

Fw 190A-8 Dec-44 866/ 337
Fw 190D-9 Dec-44 124/ 214
Fw 190A-9 Dec-44 116/ 80
Fw 190A-6 Dec-44 15/ 0
Fw 190A-5 Dec-44 9/ 0
Fw 190A-3 Dec-44 9/ 0
Fw 190F-8 Dec-44 2/ 0
Fw 190A-4 Dec-44 2/ 0
Fw 190A-7 Dec-44 2/ 0
Fw 190A-2 Dec-44 0/ 0
Total Fw 190 Dec-44 1145/ 631

So, I guess that even in the begining of 1945, the most common German fighters were the Bf109G-14 and the Fw190A-8

S~
Takata.

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 09:36 PM
Salute Takata

Thanks for your corrections. I didn't have my sources readily at hand. Still you will generally find the times I list for aircraft are by in large, correct.

By referring to aircraft being 'generally available', I wasn't implying they were the largest part of that aircraft type of that time period.

As far as the 190A8 in December '43 is concerned, the A7 is essentially identical to the A8, so for game purposes, (as I mentioned) I am noting A8's as available, although they were not actually produced. A6's certainly would be the majority of the aircraft, which is why I listed them first.

It's good that you list specific figures for aircraft, a lot of people who fly for the Blue side and think they should be flying K4's and D-9's in January of 1944, just because the first production date listed in Oleg's game is '44. Of course that is not the case, and the majority of the Luftwaffe pilots were flying pretty much garden variety models, not the latest and greatest.

The Allies tended to be a bit more up to date with their models, but for example, in '45, the most common RAF Fighter was the Spit IX.

But certainly if and when the Tempest V arrives in the game, it will certainly seem like a dominant aircraft, since it went into service in May of '44. (in the early engine, lower boost, 376 mph Sea level version)

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 09:47 PM
Salute

Also the aircraft in your lists noted as 'produced', some, listed, such as the 109G2's are obviously rebuilds, not new production.

Takata_
10-06-2005, 09:49 PM
- 1st Jan.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Jan-44 883
Bf 109G-2 Jan-44 83
Bf 109G-5 Jan-44 57
Bf 109T Jan-44 22
Bf 109G-4 Jan-44 20
Bf 109G-1 Jan-44 4
Bf 109F-4 Jan-44 3
Bf 109G-3 Jan-44 3
Total Bf 109 Jan-44 1075

Fw 190A-6 Jan-44 246
Fw 190A-5 Jan-44 79
Fw 190A-4 Jan-44 57
Fw 190A-3 Jan-44 34
Fw 190A-7 Jan-44 18
Fw 190A-2 Jan-44 7
Fw 190G-3 Jan-44 3
Total Fw 190 Jan-44 444


- 1st Feb.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Feb-44 1028
Bf 109G-2 Feb-44 57
Bf 109G-5 Feb-44 50
Bf 109T Feb-44 21
Bf 109G-4 Feb-44 8
Bf 109G-3 Feb-44 4
Bf 109F-4 Feb-44 3
Bf 109G-1 Feb-44 3
Bf 109G-8 Feb-44 0
Total Bf 109 Feb-44 1174

Fw 190A-6 Feb-44 220
Fw 190A-7 Feb-44 113
Fw 190A-5 Feb-44 56
Fw 190A-4 Feb-44 49
Fw 190A-3 Feb-44 11
Fw 190G-3 Feb-44 4
Fw 190A-2 Feb-44 2
Fw 190G-2 Feb-44 0
Fw 190A-8 Feb-44 0


- 1st Mar.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Mar-44 1136
Bf 109G-5 Mar-44 53
Bf 109G-2 Mar-44 52
Bf 109T Mar-44 11
Bf 109G-4 Mar-44 6
Bf 109F-4 Mar-44 3
Bf 109G-1 Mar-44 3
Bf 109G-8 Mar-44 2
Bf 109G-3 Mar-44 2
Total Bf 109 Mar-44 1268

Fw 190A-7 Mar-44 151
Fw 190A-6 Mar-44 149
Fw 190A-5 Mar-44 52
Fw 190A-4 Mar-44 41
Fw 190A-3 Mar-44 6
Fw 190G-3 Mar-44 4
Fw 190G-2 Mar-44 1
Fw 190A-2 Mar-44 0
Total Fw 190 Mar-44 404


- 1st Apr.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Apr-44 1103
Bf 109G-5 Apr-44 93
Bf 109G-2 Apr-44 24
Bf 109T Apr-44 11
Bf 109G-4 Apr-44 6
Bf 109G-8 Apr-44 2
Bf 109F-4 Apr-44 1
Bf 109G-1 Apr-44 1
Bf 109G-3 Apr-44 1
Total Bf 109 Apr-44 1242

Fw 190A-7 Apr-44 208
Fw 190A-6 Apr-44 116
Fw 190A-5 Apr-44 42
Fw 190A-4 Apr-44 32
Fw 190G-3 Apr-44 8
Fw 190A-3 Apr-44 7
Fw 190G-2 Apr-44 4
Fw 190A-2 Apr-44 1
Fw 190A-8 Apr-44 0
Fw 190F-3 Apr-44 0


- 1st May.1944:
Bf 109G-6 May-44 1092
Bf 109G-5 May-44 47
Bf 109G-2 May-44 24
Bf 109T May-44 10
Bf 109G-8 May-44 2
Bf 109G-4 May-44 2
Bf 109F-4 May-44 1
Total Bf 109 May-44 1178

Fw 190A-8 May-44 159
Fw 190A-7 May-44 100
Fw 190A-6 May-44 88
Fw 190A-5 May-44 38
Fw 190A-4 May-44 22
Fw 190G-3 May-44 11
Fw 190F-3 May-44 3
Fw 190A-3 May-44 3
Fw 190G-2 May-44 1
Fw 190A-2 May-44 0
Total Fw 190 May-44 425


- 1st Jun.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Jun-44 1080
Bf 109G-5 Jun-44 21
Bf 109G-2 Jun-44 16
Bf 109G-8 Jun-44 2
Bf 109G-4 Jun-44 2
Bf 109T Jun-44 0
Total Bf 109 Jun-44 1121

Fw 190A-8 Jun-44 295
Fw 190A-6 Jun-44 75
Fw 190A-5 Jun-44 46
Fw 190A-7 Jun-44 41
Fw 190A-4 Jun-44 20
Fw 190G-3 Jun-44 10
Fw 190A-3 Jun-44 6
Fw 190G-2 Jun-44 4
Fw 190A-2 Jun-44 1
Fw 190G-8 Jun-44 0
Fw 190F-8 Jun-44 0
Total Fw 190 Jun-44 498


- 1st Jul.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Jul-44 1011
Bf 109G-2 Jul-44 16
Bf 109G-5 Jul-44 9
Bf 109T Jul-44 6
Bf 109G-4 Jul-44 1
Bf 109G-14 Jul-44 0
Bf 109G-12 Jul-44 0
Total Bf 109 Jul-44 1043

Fw 190A-8 Jul-44 273
Fw 190A-6 Jul-44 58
Fw 190A-5 Jul-44 39
Fw 190A-7 Jul-44 20
Fw 190A-4 Jul-44 13
Fw 190A-3 Jul-44 11
Fw 190G-3 Jul-44 4
Fw 190G-8 Jul-44 3
Fw 190F-8 Jul-44 3
Fw 190G-2 Jul-44 1
Total Fw 190 Jul-44 425


- 1st Aug.1944:
Bf 109G-6 Aug-44 1142
Bf 109G-14 Aug-44 21
Bf 109G-2 Aug-44 14
Bf 109G-5 Aug-44 12
Bf 109T Aug-44 11
Bf 109G-12 Aug-44 2
Bf 109G-4 Aug-44 1
Total Bf 109 Aug-44 1203

Fw 190A-8 Aug-44 608
Fw 190A-6 Aug-44 35
Fw 190A-5 Aug-44 19
Fw 190A-3 Aug-44 12
Fw 190A-7 Aug-44 11
Fw 190A-4 Aug-44 9
Fw 190F-8 Aug-44 7
Fw 190G-2 Aug-44 5
Fw 190G-3 Aug-44 2
Fw 190A-9 Aug-44 0
Fw 190A-2 Aug-44 0
Total Fw 190 Aug-44 708


- 1st Sep.1944 :
Bf 109G-6 Sep-44 651
Bf 109G-14 Sep-44 213
Bf 109G-2 Sep-44 15
Bf 109G-5 Sep-44 4
Bf 109G-12 Sep-44 2
Total Bf 109 Sep-44 885

Fw 190A-8 Sep-44 570
Fw 190A-6 Sep-44 31
Fw 190A-5 Sep-44 19
Fw 190A-3 Sep-44 15
Fw 190A-4 Sep-44 10
Fw 190A-9 Sep-44 5
Fw 190F-8 Sep-44 5
Fw 190G-2 Sep-44 5
Fw 190A-7 Sep-44 3
Fw 190G-3 Sep-44 2
Fw 190D-9 Sep-44 0
Total Fw 190 Sep-44 665


I'll try as soon as possible to finish this database unit per unit, month by month and it will cover Mar.1942 to Jan.1945. with plane losses, recieved, overhaul, etc.

S~
Takata

Takata_
10-06-2005, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Also the aircraft in your lists noted as 'produced', some, listed, such as the 109G2's are obviously rebuilds, not new production.

No, sorry, it's not production here, but what number of plane was on JagdGeschwaders at the first of each month.

I added the number of plane received (new from factory) only for december 1944.

for example, 1201 Bf109G-14 were listed on JG order of battle the 1st dec.44. and during the month of december, 243 more were delivered to units listed as "new from factory".
Takata.

Takata_
10-06-2005, 09:59 PM
I can see only 1 Bf109G-6 listed "new from factory" in dec.44. no G2. There is some typos on listing, but it could be one left on some depot and sent to combat.

Takata_
10-06-2005, 10:04 PM
the source is here, thanks to Michael Holm and his excellent work : Luftwaffe 1933-1945.
http://www.ww2.dk/

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 10:04 PM
Salute Icefire

Yes, very large numbers of the 109's assigned to Homeland defence were equipped with the 20 mm underwing gunpods. The standard armament was not enough to bring down the heavy bombers.

As far as the 190 'Sturmbocks' are concerned, the aircraft is not represented in the game. We'd have to take a 190F8 and then put 30 mm Mk 108's gunpods under the wings to make something which resembled a 'Sturmbock'.

The Germans were focused pretty much completely on Bomber destruction by 1944. Long gone were the days when guys like Marseille could hang up at altitude and cherry pick early Allied fighters which did not have the high altitude performance of a 109F4 or G2.

They had to mix it up and go after the bombers, which meant they were vulnerable to being attacked by the faster P-47's and P-51's.

Pingu: The 109G6AS in the game seems to be some kind of representation of the G6 model which had the larger supercharger and better hi alt performance, although it is not exactly the same thing. I include it in April '44 because that was when a certain smaller fraction of the 109G6's delivered started to arrive in this hi alt form.

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 10:05 PM
Salute Takata

Sorry, my mistake. I was confusing aircraft on hand with aircraft produced.

luftluuver
10-06-2005, 10:10 PM
Takata, do you have numbers for the Fw190 and Me109 jabos?

on hand

- 1st Nov.1944:
Bf 109K-4 155

- 1st Jan.1945:
Bf 109K-4....167

Production of K-4s had a hard time keeping up with K-4 losses. I'm I reading this correctly?

Buzzsaw, are you saying the Spitfire IX was an up to date model?


The Allies tended to be a bit more up to date with their models, but for example, in '45, the most common RAF Fighter was the Spit IX.

Buzzsaw-
10-06-2005, 10:20 PM
Salute LuftLuver

No, I am not saying the Spit IX was up to date in 1945. Neither was the Typhoon. The RAF would have preferred to have its pilots flying Spit XIV's and Tempests. After the war, the Spit IX's were scrapped in big numbers, the Typhoons went to the junkyard almost instantly. You could buy a Spit IX for 100 pounds.

Takata_
10-06-2005, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Takata, do you have numbers for the Fw190 and Me109 jabos?

on hand

- 1st Nov.1944:
Bf 109K-4 155

- 1st Jan.1945:
Bf 109K-4....167

Production of K-4s had a hard time keeping up with K-4 losses. I'm I reading this correctly?

Buzzsaw, are you saying the Spitfire IX was an up to date model?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Allies tended to be a bit more up to date with their models, but for example, in '45, the most common RAF Fighter was the Spit IX. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, for jabos, I can't give any total yet as I'm still completing the database but I will later.

Bf109K-4
Month /on hand /factory /combat-los /non-combat- los /total losses
Oct.44...0...167...0...10...10
Nov.44...155...133...43...16...59
Dec.44...207...147...105...60...165
Jan.45...167

Don't ask me for any more table, it's a real pain to do that here. :-D

Takata

CUJO_1970
10-07-2005, 02:01 PM
FW190A-9 production numbers per month, from C-Amt Monatsmeldung(monthly deliveries) and FW production book:

This was originally posted on butch2k's AAW board,

FW190A-9 deliveries in 1944


Apr. '44 - 2 FW190A-9

May '44 - 15 FW190A-9

June '44 - 21 FW190A-9

July '44 - 70 FW190A-9

Aug. '44 - 30 FW190A-9

Sept '44 - 122 FW190A-9
+
55 FW190A-9/R11

Oct. '44 - 14
+
80 FW190A-9/R11

Nov. '44 - 99 FW190A-9
+
58 FW190A-9/R11

A total of 566 FW190A-9/FW190A-9/R11 produced/delivered between April-Nov 1944.


There were ~600 FW190A-7 delivered between Nov. 1943 thru April 1944.

=================================


This sim really needs the FW190A-7 to bridge the gap between the A-6 and the A-8 from Autumn 1943 thru Spring 1944.

mynameisroland
10-07-2005, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute Icefire

Yes, very large numbers of the 109's assigned to Homeland defence were equipped with the 20 mm underwing gunpods. The standard armament was not enough to bring down the heavy bombers.

As far as the 190 'Sturmbocks' are concerned, the aircraft is not represented in the game. We'd have to take a 190F8 and then put 30 mm Mk 108's gunpods under the wings to make something which resembled a 'Sturmbock'.

The Germans were focused pretty much completely on Bomber destruction by 1944. Long gone were the days when guys like Marseille could hang up at altitude and cherry pick early Allied fighters which did not have the high altitude performance of a 109F4 or G2.

They had to mix it up and go after the bombers, which meant they were vulnerable to being attacked by the faster P-47's and P-51's.

Pingu: The 109G6AS in the game seems to be some kind of representation of the G6 model which had the larger supercharger and better hi alt performance, although it is not exactly the same thing. I include it in April '44 because that was when a certain smaller fraction of the 109G6's delivered started to arrive in this hi alt form.

Dont mean to burst your bubble but your assumption of Marsielle is incorrect. Aircombat in North Africa did not often take place at high altitude like on the Western front and Marsielle was renowned for 'mixing it up' he was probably the top 'dogfighting' pilot ever. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning leaking in to his G2's cockpit (apparently his first ever flight in the G2) forcing him to bail and then he hit his tail structure and was struck unconcious.

Also Marsielle scored against the Spitfire - this can hardly be classed as a poor performer, and the aircraft he scored the vast majority of his kills in was the 109 F4.

Imagine if Marsielle had been around long enough to convert on to Focke Wulf A4's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif We would have seen him score at least 100 more IMO against the RAF/USAAF in the MED theatre.

gx-warspite
10-07-2005, 07:01 PM
I don't think Marseille would have liked the 190. His style of fighting relied on attacking groups of enemy fighters by himself and getting them confused through the use of hard evasives. He was one of the first pilots to train himself to resist G forces, because he pulled so many hard turns.

The 190 doesn't seem like his kind of aircraft. It's too good at BnZ and too weak at dogfighting. I wonder if Marseille could have exploited the roll...

mynameisroland
10-07-2005, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by gx-warspite:
I don't think Marseille would have liked the 190. His style of fighting relied on attacking groups of enemy fighters by himself and getting them confused through the use of hard evasives. He was one of the first pilots to train himself to resist G forces, because he pulled so many hard turns.

The 190 doesn't seem like his kind of aircraft. It's too good at BnZ and too weak at dogfighting. I wonder if Marseille could have exploited the roll...

I hear you

but remember the Fw 190 in this game is not necessarily the Fw 190 that flew in WW2. I feel the one we fly is fast , tough and has great firepower but it was infact better in reality. Pilots accounts state the Fw190 was more manuverable than the 109 and that it was a better dogfighter. Not only German accounts but RAF and USAAF pilots who flew captured examples. I think the Fw could pull more G's than the 109 not only because it was stronger but because its elevator and aerilons were so responsive it could.

Keeping on subject I have a book that covers the Fw 190 in North Africa and it has an account that mentions Erich Rudorfer (Famous ace) adopted Marsielles tactics and scored very effectively while using them - he flew the Fw A4.

faustnik
10-07-2005, 07:49 PM
The only real difference that I can think of between the A7 and A8 would be that the A7 did not have the rear 110g MW50/GM-1/C3 tank behind the cockpit. Before 1944 it would be limited to 1.42ata@2700rpm 3-minute WEP and starting January '44 increased to 1.58ata@2700rpm 3-minute WEP. Basically, it's an A6 with cowl Mg131.

p1ngu666
10-07-2005, 09:58 PM
IRL, the pilots certainly rated the 190 as better, the 190 IS the most manoverable plane ingame, in changing direction (in any axis), granted its in the poo if u sustain whatever u started http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

could of been marselles time to die, we've all read of ppl dieing in silly acciedents, after tour expired or very close. last one i read was a guy crashing into a control tower at night in a p51, on D day. the rest took off by the light of his fire..
89th, and last mission..

p1ngu666
10-07-2005, 10:00 PM
ingame performance is probably off cos 190 abit too bad, and the 109 somewhat too good.

AI f4s easily outturned my spit in a coop earlier, ofcourse better in every other was aswell.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

mynameisroland
10-09-2005, 06:39 AM
Hi Pingu,

The early 109's in game - especially the F4 are very competitive against opponents from the same time frame. In fact I think the Spitfire did not really gain the upper hand over the Bf109 until the mark 9 was introduced to combat the Fw 190. Even then the 109 G2 was said by some to be better than the early mark 9's.If you read a book called Black6 about the RAF restoring a captured G2 and the pilots comments that the 109 G2 was actually faster than the IX at high altitudes)

So I would be happier in the Bf109 F4 against the Spit Vb. But I prefer the IX to the G6. The IX is a great competitior and certainly one of the best fighters of 1942/43/44 maybe the best.

Grey_Mouser67
10-09-2005, 02:55 PM
The Spit Mk V could out turn a Bf109F in real life...they were close in speed with the edge in top speed going to the Bf 109 but altitude had something to do with it as usual. Rate of roll went to 109... In 3.04, I found match ups with Bf109 pilots vs spit mk V's to be much fun and very evenly matched because the 109 had those heavy elevators so a good spit pilot could force an overshoot and turn the tables and a good 109 pilot learned not to put himself in that position and wear his opponent down...I think the sim took a step backwards with regard to elevator authority in the 109...all planes for that matter...all planes movements should slow down with speed; but they should slow down in differing degrees with some aircraft performing well at slow speed and some at high speed....the performance difference at speed is now less than it once was and I find this to be a bad thing for the sim and online tactics. I'd like to see Oleg change back and do some work on stick forces and elevator authority for most all the major players...Mustang, Lightning, Fw, 109, Zero, and Ki84 seem particularly in need of this.

mynameisroland
10-12-2005, 05:09 AM
Spitfire VIII actually outrolls the Fw A5 at certain speeds these days. If you kick a little rudder its rate of roll at 600-700km/h is very good... too good.

109 is still stiff when flying at anything above 500km/h and in such a dogfight scenario the Spitfire holds a distinct advantage as its elevators do not stiffen until higher up the speed range.

The 109 F4 was between 20 to 30 mph faster than the Spitfire Vb Ive read sources that claim the F4 to hit 390 mph which I can believe. The Spitfire is still a great E fighter as its controls let you use high speed attacks much more effectively. If you get in to a dogfight proper the 109 should win against the Vb all it needs to do are vertical yo yo's and drop some flaps.

ImpStarDuece
10-12-2005, 07:48 AM
There is some data to suggest that the F4 may of been even faster than the 390 mph usually credited to it. LuftWaffe documents comparing the Fw-190A2 against the Bf-109F4 suggest that it may of been capable of around 416mph (700kph) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ! Similarly, Messerschmitt data for the BD 601E and 190F4 gives 670 kph as the maximum speed.

The generally accepted performance figures in western literature come from British test figures, which give 370 mph for the F2 and 390 mph for the F4. The British tests were apparently carried out at 1.3 ata and 2500 rpm. The Feburary 1942 manual for the 190F serise gives an emergency 3 minute limit of 1.42 ata/2700 rpm, suggesting that 1942 variants of the 109F had performance more similar to the 109G serise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

Like all Spitfire variants, level speed of the Mk V is really variable and confusing because of all the engine modifications.

According to its 1941 RAF data sheet the standard Spitfire Vb with a Merlin 45 at +9lbs boost was rated at 375 mph at 21,000 feet. Seems simple enough.

However, later testing with a Merlin 46 at +9lbs with a S.U. carburettor unit shows performance of Mk Vs was around 369mph at 22,500 feet. Confusingly, the Merlin 46 was cleared for +12lbs take-off and 5 minutes emergency boost, but this boost level wasn't used for the level speed tests, suggesting that higher speeds could of been obtained at the +12lbs boost level. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif A +9lbs Spitfire V with some basic external modifications (replacing fishtail type exhausts with multi-ejector types, different rear view mirror, cleaning and polishing leading edges, cutting ejector chutes flush) did 386 mph at 20,000 feet in early 1943.

When the Merlin 45 was cleared for +15 lbs in 1943, top level speed was about 370mph at 13,000 feet. So it produced roughly the same speed, with the same engine, as a +9lbs cleared aircraft, but 8,000 feet lower http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif . The same engine was later cleared for +16lbs boost, complicating matters further http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The Merlin 45m, 50m and 55m were all cleared for low altitude operations. With a cropped supercharger they were cleared for +18lbs boost, and pushed the Spitfire V to about 350-60 mph (depending on configuration and exhaust type)

Speeds in testing seem to vary between around 368mph and 375 mph, almost irrespective of boost level. Boost levels in the Merlin 45 family (45,46,50,55,56) went from +9lbs in 1941 to +18lbs by early 1943, increasing power by about 200 hp all up.

mynameisroland
10-12-2005, 08:04 AM
It makes sense the 109 F is very clean, very light and is powered by an engine of greater HP than the Spit Vb. German tests state that the 109 F4 out climbed the Fw A1 and performed better above 6000m yet the Fw 190 out performed it in all other areas.

The RAF had severe problems with the Luftwaffe and the 109 F series before the Fw ever showed up on the scene.

Kurfurst__
10-12-2005, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
There is some data to suggest that the F4 may of been even faster than the 390 mph usually credited to it. LuftWaffe documents comparing the Fw-190A2 against the Bf-109F4 suggest that it may of been capable of around 416mph (700kph) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ! Similarly, Messerschmitt data for the BD 601E and 190F4 gives 670 kph as the maximum speed.

Those test you qoute indeed give the 670kph figure for the 109F-4 flight tests. Though I suspect this curve doesn't have compressibilty effects, so I figure it was more like 655-660 kph true. It would make quite some sense, the since hte Soviets tested with 109G-2 at 1.3ata, being very similiar in output (at high altitudes it was better) than the 601E of the 109F at 1.42ata, and reached 666.

The 700 kph figure is for the 109G, but the chart notes it was calculated from 109F4 figures, and are for 1.42ata, which was not used until Sept/OCt 1943. I suppose then it doesn't have compr. correction either, but that's merely a guess, if true, that would put the 109G ca680kph at altitude at max power, quite reasonable since it was practically identical to the 109F aerodynamically.

It seems rather OK, given that the Russians al




The generally accepted performance figures in western literature come from British test figures, which give 370 mph for the F2 and 390 mph for the F4. The British tests were apparently carried out at 1.3 ata and 2500 rpm. The Feburary 1942 manual for the 190F serise gives an emergency 3 minute limit of 1.42 ata/2700 rpm, suggesting that 1942 variants of the 109F had performance more similar to the 109G serise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

Yep, I think that's quite correct. 109Fs at 1.42ata had very similiar power as 109Gs at 1.3ata.


Like all Spitfire variants, level speed of the Mk V is really variable and confusing because of all the engine modifications.

Yeah I see there's some confusion, the 109F's max speed seems to icnrease with higher boost, why not the SpitV, too?

The answer is simple, best speed is developed at altitude, more if there's more power available. But it's not the case with the Merlins, higher boost would increase the power and speed below the crit altitude, since the supercharger was a barrier to increease it above. The s/c speed is always in relation to the engine's rpm, usually ca 10:1 ratio. But since the power increased on Merlins like this :

rpm/boost
3000 / +9
3000 / +12
3000 / +16

one can see the supercharger could offer the same air and so there was power and speed increase below the crit alt only. Say if at 3000/+9 it did 370 at 20 000 feet, at +12/3000 it would be faster below 20 000 feet, but would remain at 370 at 20000ft.

German planes are a bit different, since they had single lever controls, and higher boosts almost withotu exception meant that higher RPMs were allowed, which meant that the s/c was driven more hard (engine rpm increase => s/c speed increases, too). IE.

2500 / 1.3ata --> 2700 / 1.42ata DB601E
2600 / 1.3ata --> 2800 / 1.42ata DB605A

So the power output increased on the whole altitude range, and thus speed too.

faustnik
10-12-2005, 11:15 AM
OT:


Hey Kururst & Gibbage,

I realize that you and Gibbage don't like each other, anyone who has ever read a thread that you two participated in knows this. Could you please leave the ridiculous quotes out of your sigs? It takes up space and greatly detracts from any useful information your posts might contain.

Thanks