PDA

View Full Version : Interesting Bit of reading- British Pilot on the Russian Planes.



XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:57 PM
Recently bought "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945" by Erik Pilawskii. BTW- Dang good book, especially if you are interested in skinning- lots of photos and color illustrations. Came across the following passage, which I found quite interesting- brings new light to the assorted FB FM controversies.......

"In service the Yak-9DD demonstrated its value as a specialized long-range escort fighter. Vertical competitiveness with German aircraft was strictly out of the question, but the Yak-9DD could still outmanoeuvre its opponents in the horizontal plane, and there were many successful pilots on the type. The most outstanding use of the dal'nevo deystviya probably occurred in August 1944 when a special eskadrilya of Yak-9DDs led by Mayor Ovcharenko was dispatched to Bari, in Italy, to assist the Yugoslav People's Liberation Army across the Adriatic. Following a deployment flight of 1,300 km the Soviet fighters then undertook - to the astonishment of the American and British crews at the base - 155 combat sorties without a single mechanical problem or failure of any kind, and all without mechanical service of any description. Fuel and oil supplies were obtained from the Allied units sharing the field, and great mutual interest was shown by the pilots in their counterparts' aircraft. Of course, being fighter pilots, various mock dogfights were arranged between the Yak-9DDs and numerous Allied types, including P-47Ds, P-5lBs, Spitfire MK.Vs and VIlls, P-40s, P-38s, and Hurricanes. Despite being equipped with the heaviest and least agile of the entire Yak fighter family, the Soviet pilots in their Yak-9DDs bested every Allied fighter they faced, and to the great admiration of their RAF colleagues. One British pilot recalled, '..We were very impressed by the Russian pilots and their machines. Some of the aircraft accumulated more than 100 hours of operation at Bari, and we understand that this was after a rather lengthy flight from the Soviet Union. To us, this was unthinkable - a Merlin at 100 hrs. would be removed from our kite and rebuilt in [the) shop. The Russians did not even change a single sparking plug; we changed ours after every sortie. Their fighters are wooden, simple jobs and seem to be lightly armed; but, they have lots of armour protection, are very agile, and we could not outmanoeuvre them in the air...' "

Personally, I'll take a recollection of someone who was actually there rather than some idiot who never heard of a Lavochkin before 2 years ago.....

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:57 PM
Recently bought "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945" by Erik Pilawskii. BTW- Dang good book, especially if you are interested in skinning- lots of photos and color illustrations. Came across the following passage, which I found quite interesting- brings new light to the assorted FB FM controversies.......

"In service the Yak-9DD demonstrated its value as a specialized long-range escort fighter. Vertical competitiveness with German aircraft was strictly out of the question, but the Yak-9DD could still outmanoeuvre its opponents in the horizontal plane, and there were many successful pilots on the type. The most outstanding use of the dal'nevo deystviya probably occurred in August 1944 when a special eskadrilya of Yak-9DDs led by Mayor Ovcharenko was dispatched to Bari, in Italy, to assist the Yugoslav People's Liberation Army across the Adriatic. Following a deployment flight of 1,300 km the Soviet fighters then undertook - to the astonishment of the American and British crews at the base - 155 combat sorties without a single mechanical problem or failure of any kind, and all without mechanical service of any description. Fuel and oil supplies were obtained from the Allied units sharing the field, and great mutual interest was shown by the pilots in their counterparts' aircraft. Of course, being fighter pilots, various mock dogfights were arranged between the Yak-9DDs and numerous Allied types, including P-47Ds, P-5lBs, Spitfire MK.Vs and VIlls, P-40s, P-38s, and Hurricanes. Despite being equipped with the heaviest and least agile of the entire Yak fighter family, the Soviet pilots in their Yak-9DDs bested every Allied fighter they faced, and to the great admiration of their RAF colleagues. One British pilot recalled, '..We were very impressed by the Russian pilots and their machines. Some of the aircraft accumulated more than 100 hours of operation at Bari, and we understand that this was after a rather lengthy flight from the Soviet Union. To us, this was unthinkable - a Merlin at 100 hrs. would be removed from our kite and rebuilt in [the) shop. The Russians did not even change a single sparking plug; we changed ours after every sortie. Their fighters are wooden, simple jobs and seem to be lightly armed; but, they have lots of armour protection, are very agile, and we could not outmanoeuvre them in the air...' "

Personally, I'll take a recollection of someone who was actually there rather than some idiot who never heard of a Lavochkin before 2 years ago.....

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:01 PM
Interesting stuff, DDad. Never seen this before.

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the read. Very interesting and also quite impressive.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:44 PM
You'll notice that it specified the P-51B, NOT the "D".

That Mustang would've given the Yak-9 a run for it's money in the mock dogfights...



<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/BP_Spectre_A-10_sig.jpg </center>
CombatSim.com Forums Moderator (http://WWW.CombatSim.com)
BlitzPigs Co-WebMaster/Moderator (http://www.BlitzPigs.com)
<font style="display: none;">

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:49 PM
Spectre_USA wrote:
- You'll notice that it specified the P-51B, NOT the
- "D".
-
- That Mustang would've given the Yak-9 a run for it's
- money in the mock dogfights...
-
-

Bahahah! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


http://www.mikerian.com/HAS/sept/09436.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:50 PM
Spectre_USA wrote:
- You'll notice that it specified the P-51B, NOT the
- "D".
-
- That Mustang would've given the Yak-9 a run for it's
- money in the mock dogfights...

I disagree. Where is the D mustang that much superior to the B version besides visibility and armament?

Heavier wings/armament must take it's toll in roll rate and turn. We also know the B was a bit faster than the D.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:55 PM
Good post.

Anyway, isn't P-51B better dogfighter than D?



=======================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:15 PM
But the P-51 won the war...

/i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

<center>BlitzPig_Voidcracker

http://server3002.freeyellow.com/spectre-usa/BlitzFlap.gif </center>
<center>Distributor of the world-famous mystery Schklitza!</center>
<center>All your 109 are belong to us! be sure.</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:22 PM
voidcracker wrote:
- But the P-51 won the war...
-
/i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif


Bah, the magic sentence, 'Won the war' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


=======================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:36 PM
DDad wrote:
Vertical competitiveness with German aircraft was strictly out of the question,

I love this sentence yet we dont have that in FB.

Oh and the P-51 did not win the war it was the T-6 that won the war



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:45 PM
Excellent post, and I very much agree with your last statement.

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:48 PM
Tigermoth and Master won the war, or there would'nt have been a war for the T6 ot winhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and whatever the Russians trained on unless they threw them straight into fighters?

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:49 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- Good post.
-
- Anyway, isn't P-51B better dogfighter than D?

I would think so, since Soviet Ace Ivan Kozhedub was able to down two P 51D's in a single engagement in his La7.


<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-16-2003, 09:50 PM
Which only proves Kozhedub was a great pilot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:54 PM
Great book, got a copy also, one of the better on soviet war time aviation.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:02 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
-
- DDad wrote:
- Vertical competitiveness with German aircraft was
- strictly out of the question,
-
-
- I love this sentence yet we dont have that in FB.
-


We have that in FB.
If you do strict vertical maneuver, they can't catch up.
Patch will make it even better.

<a href = "http://toocool34.cafe24.com/TooCooL34_verticalK-4vsLa-7topAce.trk">Matchup with Kozedub's La-7 in K-4</a>

<a href = "http://toocool34.cafe24.com/TooCooL34_verticalG2VsP-39N-1Ace.trk">Matchup with P-39N-1 ace in G-2</a>

Try above in VVS fighter, it's extremely hard. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




=================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:20 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- LW_lcarp wrote:
--
-- DDad wrote:
-- Vertical competitiveness with German aircraft was
-- strictly out of the question,
--
--
-- I love this sentence yet we dont have that in FB.
--
-
-
- We have that in FB.
- If you do strict vertical maneuver, they can't catch
- up.
- Patch will make it even better.
-
- <a href =
- "http://toocool34.cafe24.com/TooCooL34_verticalK-4
- vsLa-7topAce.trk">Matchup with Kozedub's La-7 in
- K-4</a>
-
- <a href =
- "http://toocool34.cafe24.com/TooCooL34_verticalG2V
- sP-39N-1Ace.trk">Matchup with P-39N-1 ace in G-2</a>
-
- Try above in VVS fighter, it's extremely hard.



Try it against human, it is extremely hard. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:30 PM
Oboe wrote:
- Tigermoth and Master won the war, or there would'nt
- have been a war for the T6 ot winhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-
- Oh and whatever the Russians trained on unless they
- threw them straight into fighters?


In General- the Russian Primary trainer was the U2/PO-2 and the Yak UT-2 series


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:34 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Try it against human, it is extremely hard.

I do that all the time. That's just for quick lesson. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

=================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:45 PM
Oki. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:53 PM
how is it, doesnt the Bf109 turn as good as the yak9s
in the game? (cant remember)


<ceter>http://www.funnypictureswebsite.com/funnypictures/funny-pictures213.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:01 PM
Thank you jippo.

I linked it just because ordinary german pilots rarely do vertical and goes down to VVS homeground(That kills us all).

Not for veterans like you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Another bump for the post.


Jippo01 wrote:
- Oki.

--jippo
-




=================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:51 PM
Ddad what altitudes were these mock dogfights held at? I have alot of german guncam and some russian, and it seems like the yak9us and yak3's stick on the 109g6 g10 g14 very well at 6000 meters and vice versa, if either plane is caught being hit once its in a fireball and pilot bailing. both the yak and the 109, I have read many books that say on the russian front most enguagements were under 5000m then after russia lost ground and build thier factories farther back in russia did the enguagements happen 3000m-8000m where the germans had an advantage over the late russian planes and were instructed not to enguage yak under 5000m.

you notice in your post it said the yak has a much better turn ratio on a horizontal plane even with that greater turn an enemy can stay on its 6 for a couple seconds. Thats what i dont get in this sim the 109 with its small elevator tabs have more elevator effectiveness then the la5 and 7 which have bigger elevator tabs, the p47 has extrememly slow moving tabs and the 190 which has thinner long elevator tabs have more effect then anything with the exception of the me262 which can do 900kmph L turns.

Do you agree ddad that elevator effectiveness's and simulated stick pressures at high speeds area definate problem in this game for ex a p40 on a 190s diving at 650kmph the p40s controlls freeze up completely while the 190 can do insane rolls and elevator banks? Like real flight this sim seems you can get into a dive you cant get out of because of stickpressure, even max overspeeding after 1 alieron and elevator break off you can get out of a dive immediatly. Thx for the post its a great one



http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:56 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
-
- DDad wrote:
- Vertical competitiveness with German aircraft was
- strictly out of the question,
-
-
- I love this sentence yet we dont have that in FB.
-


Do you see a lot of people dogfighting in a Yak 9D online?

Try it yourself, you will see it's a dog in FB....



<Center>



http://www.wingman-fr.net/fzg/forum/images/smiles/sm167.gif

1.5/10 Troll Rating from USAFHelos
(but working on it /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif - Woot! 7.25 points awarded make 8.75/10)

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:08 AM
For a low altitude mock dogfight the result is expected. Nevertheless, interesting quote.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:17 AM
Weren't some versions of the Spit MkV and MkVIII the allies best low altitude dogfighters?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:27 AM
NN_Veverka wrote:
-
- Try it yourself, you will see it's a dog in FB....
-

I must disagree. I think it's a pretty good plane under 5500 metres. I like flying it when the Yak-3 is too easy or unavailable. Only problem is a limited maximum dive speed, apart from that it's not bad at all.

_____________
Ian Boys
=38=Tatarenko
Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:46 AM
faustnik wrote:
- Weren't some versions of the Spit MkV and MkVIII the
- allies best low altitude dogfighters?

The best low alt spits were the LF models that had clipped wings and cropped superchargers.This gave them full throttle at SL and a Very high rate of roll(almost as good as the FW190)

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

ZG77_Nagual
10-17-2003, 01:09 AM
Spectre_USA wrote:
- You'll notice that it specified the P-51B, NOT the
- "D".
-
- That Mustang would've given the Yak-9 a run for it's
- money in the mock dogfights...
-

Wrong - the B was the fastest and most agile of the mustangs

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-
-
-

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:09 AM
Leadspitter-
Fraid I have no info about all of the circumstances for the mock dogifghts- I just presented what was in thebook- no comment on the correctness of it. The British pilots report however, is the interesting bit to me

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:58 AM
Interesting read.

Although will say you can read a lot into that with not a lot of info. We all see what we wanna see.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:07 AM
Great stuff.... BTW, the M-1 Garand and the guys behind them won the war. No single piece of weaponry did more. Nuff said.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:11 AM
Wot about the Ruskies?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:14 AM
The P-51B fought with an Allison engine, the D with a RR Merlin. Is that a difference?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:27 AM
Salute

More specifics are required before this account is to be taken seriously.

Exactly which Allied aircraft were present?

It would likely be the case that the Yak's in closein dogfights were superior to the P-51b. It would clearly be inferior in speed and high speed handling.

As far as close in dogfighting, I doubt very much that it would be superior to the Spitfire VIII.

The Yak-9DD is noted as being inferior in vertical maneuverability to the German aircraft.

It would also be inferior to the Spitfire VIII, both in powerloading, acceleration and climb.

Clipped wing Spit VIII's would have a superior rollrate.

With all this clearly in the Spit VIII's favour, I doubt any comments rating the Yak better.

The Yak-9DD was no Yak-3.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 07:28 AM
The comparison in question does point out the relative aircraft quality values of the Soviets and the Western Allies. Even the Soviet long range fighter was still designed as a dogfighter. The Western Allies felt the need for speed and put less value on turn ability.

I have the feeling though, that the best low-altitude dogfigher FB will ever see will be American made. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:55 AM
Hedger wrote:
- Great stuff.... BTW, the M-1 Garand and the guys
- behind them won the war. No single piece of
- weaponry did more. Nuff said.

If you think the war was won on the ground, then surely you mean the Mosin Nagant / PPSH and the men behind them?

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:56 AM
DONB3397 wrote:
- The P-51B fought with an Allison engine, the D with
- a RR Merlin. Is that a difference?

The P51A had an Allison engine. The B/C and D version were equipped with RR/Packard Merlins

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:58 AM
nicolas10 wrote:
-
- Hedger wrote:
-- Great stuff.... BTW, the M-1 Garand and the guys
-- behind them won the war. No single piece of
-- weaponry did more. Nuff said.
-
- If you think the war was won on the ground, then
- surely you mean the Mosin Nagant / PPSH and the men
- behind them?


Don't forget Degtarjev. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:00 AM
So, Buzzsaw, are you suggesting that the author of that quote is greatly exagerating the abilites of Yak-9DD and therefore should not be taken seriously?

<center>[BlitzPig_Voskhod]<center>
<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif <center>

http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/pix/su27vsf15.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:11 AM
nicolas10 wrote:
-
- Hedger wrote:
-- Great stuff.... BTW, the M-1 Garand and the guys
-- behind them won the war. No single piece of
-- weaponry did more. Nuff said.
-
- If you think the war was won on the ground, then
- surely you mean the Mosin Nagant / PPSH and the men
- behind them?
-
- Nic



Oh, I'm sure that that's precisely what he meant!
*rolls eyes*
Otherwise, I'm just ROFLMAO at the sheer ignorance displayed.

This sentence especially: "No single piece of weaponry did more." MWUHAHAHAHA! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Nice try!


<center>[BlitzPig_Voskhod]<center>
<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gingernuts/blitz_anim.gif <center>

http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/pix/su27vsf15.jpg



Message Edited on 10/17/0304:12AM by Voskhod5

fluke39
10-17-2003, 10:46 AM
Interesting post DDad thanks for posting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Chadburn wrote:
-
- TooCooL34 wrote:
-- Good post.
--
-- Anyway, isn't P-51B better dogfighter than D?
-
- I would think so, since Soviet Ace Ivan Kozhedub was
- able to down two P 51D's in a single engagement in
- his La7.


forgive my lack of knowledge, but when and how did one allied fighter type and pilot (kozhedub/la7) engage another allied fighter plane/pilot (P51D's) ?

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:50 AM
Well IIRC the mustangs have mistaken his La 7 for a FW190 and attacked him.

There were several reports of russian / US planes mistaking the others and engaging combat. There was also an instance where some russian planes attacked US planes because they were firing on russian ground troops.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:44 PM
Salute Voskhod5

I'd like to see all the details of these so called "dogfights".

If you do any kind of research you will see that the Spitfire VIII outperforms a Yak-9DD in all respects.

1. Lower wingloading

2. Better powerloading

3. Higher peak horsepower

4. Better climb

5. Higher top speed at all altitudes.

6. Clipped wing version rolls better.


Here are some references for Spit VIII:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit8.html


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:19 PM
better pilots?
perhaps it was just better in some way, u cant put finger onit

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:55 PM
Wow! incredible reliability, explains why the VVS pilots wer not overly impressed by the old beat up Spits (with no manuals) that they 1st received from Britain.

i would assume that many of the VVS pilots sent on this mission to Yugoslavia were very experienced (probably a guards unit- I can check when i get home.) If so then they would have seen more air to air combat than the American & Britsh pilots. What this does show is that the Yak9DD was a competitve fighter. That is all a good fighter pilot needs.


Excerpt:

"...Following a deployment flight of 1,300 km the Soviet fighters then undertook - to the astonishment of the American and British crews at the base - 155 combat sorties without a single mechanical problem or failure of any kind, and all without mechanical service of any description. Fuel and oil supplies were obtained from the Allied units sharing the field, and great mutual interest was shown by the pilots in their counterparts'
We were very impressed by the Russian pilots and their machines. Some of the aircraft accumulated more than 100 hours of operation at Bari, and we understand that this was after a rather lengthy flight from the Soviet Union. To us, this was unthinkable - a Merlin at 100 hrs. would be removed from our kite and rebuilt in [the) shop. The Russians did not even change a single sparking plug; we changed ours after every sortie. Their fighters are wooden, simple jobs and seem to be lightly armed; but, they have lots of armour protection, are very agile, and we could not outmanoeuvre them in the air...' "

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:10 PM
DONB3397 wrote:
- The P-51B fought with an Allison engine, the D with
- a RR Merlin. Is that a difference?
-
-

Simply amazed at how much mis-informatinon goes on here. Unless you all really know your facts you should refrian from posting.

B's had merlins

also according to one of the curators at the Kermit Meeks museum in Florida (forget the name) Actually the fastest was the P-51 C. I suppose thats argueable but man his looked purty fast.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:31 PM
Very good posting DDad. I also believe that russian planes were simple, with rough construction and very realiable ones...but allied fighters in the last 2 years of the war faced the majority of luftwaffe fighters and with devastating results...and german pilots always consider the allies to be tougher enemies than the russians...and although I love 109 and 190 I can denied the huge number of them that fall against the guns of the p-51....

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:02 PM
sebasgalland wrote:
- Very good posting DDad. I also believe that russian
- planes were simple, with rough construction and very
- realiable ones...but allied fighters in the last 2
- years of the war faced the majority of luftwaffe
- fighters and with devastating results...and german
- pilots always consider the allies to be tougher
- enemies than the russians...and although I love 109
- and 190 I can denied the huge number of them that
- fall against the guns of the p-51....

The sheer numbers isn't an argument by itself. One has to consider many other factors. Don't forget that late in the war the 109s and 190 has the mission of ignoring escort fighters and go to the bombers. Letting the escort position itself advantageously to chose when to enter and break the fight. Add the lack of fuel that grounded many fighters, lack of experienced pilots late in the war, the fact that some AC were already damaged by bombers when they were attacked, that the allies had such numerical superiority in the end that they shot planes down on take off and on landing at will...

Not saying P47 / 51 are bad, but just that the number of victories alone is not an indicator of the quality of an AC.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:27 PM
Hedger wrote:
- Great stuff.... BTW, the M-1 Garand and the guys
- behind them won the war. No single piece of
- weaponry did more. Nuff said.

And the artillery. At Corps level in the US Army
the organisation indicated 25% infantry and 30%
of personnel in the artillery! (From George Forty's
book the name of which currently escapes me).
Many Germans testified
to the incredible effect of massed artillery used
during the breakout from Normandy in July 1944.
The USSR also had impressive amounts of artillery

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:51 PM
It doesn't surprise me that the Yak 9-DD would out-dogfight the American fighters mentioned. The P-47, P-51 and P-38 were not "dogfighters". Turning with any Yak in those fighters would be crazy. BnZ, hit-and-run, altitude/energy fighting, whatever you want to call it, was those fighters stock and trade. "Mock dogfights" proved little about a fighter's true effectiveness because dogfighting by that time in the war (espesially in the Western ETO) was an anachronism.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:54 PM
Oboe wrote:
- Tigermoth and Master won the war, or there would'nt
- have been a war for the T6 ot win/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Oh and whatever the Russians trained on unless they
- threw them straight into fighters?
-
-

Agree with the Tigermoth but what is a Master?(j/k) The TMoth trained, and failed, more pilots than the T-6 ever did. Include with the TMoths, the Finch, Cornell and Stearman(PT-x) primary trainers.

Some interesting stats from the CATP(Canada)

EFTS a/c

hours flown: 3,366,579
hours flown/accident: 4903

SFTS (T-6)

hours flown: 2,968,189
hours flown/accident: 1062

note: accidents include Cat. A, B and C

pilots trained: 49,808

total aircrew trained: 131,553

There was 36 EFTS schools and 41 SFTS schools at one time or another. Many were shutting down in 1944 because there was too many aircrew trained.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:08 PM
Nicolas10 I agree with you in everthing you have just posted (I consider the luftwaffe to be the best air force in the war..they fought in 3 different fronts against the 3 greatest world powers during 4 years...which one of its oponents can say the same?...), so consider also that the russians has the same numerical superiority or even more (at the end of the war only 2 german squadrons were in east front) and were not able to achive such a superiority with their "so superior yaks"....so don´t you believe that russian planes are "overdone" in the game...

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:30 PM
The British and Americans also had numerous fronts they fought on:

ETO
MTO
CBI
SWP
Pacific

They were not even close to the area of production but 1000s of miles away, unlike the Germans who were near to their manufacturing facilities.


sebasgalland wrote:
- Nicolas10 I agree with you in everthing you have
- just posted (I consider the luftwaffe to be the best
- air force in the war..they fought in 3 different
- fronts against the 3 greatest world powers during 4
- years...which one of its oponents can say the
- same?...),
-
-




http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:36 PM
Yes I think the russian planes are overdone, however don't forget the soviets used their planes more as support for their ground offensives than to really establish air superiority.

+ even if german planes were inferior in dogfights, they had other qualities to compensate (vertical...).

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 07:24 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- Yes I think the russian planes are overdone, however
- don't forget the soviets used their planes more as
- support for their ground offensives than to really
- establish air superiority.
-
- + even if german planes were inferior in dogfights,
- they had other qualities to compensate
- (vertical...).
-
- Nic
-
-The German aces in their late war planes were stil not able to gain air superiority. They could make hit & run attacks and rack up incredible kill totatls but they couldn't stop the VVS from completing their missions in support of the army. Certainly the VVS planes were good enough, exactly how good I leave to the experts. I think Oleg & crew do a good job & i can't wait for patch 1.2

i like planes from all countries but am glad that unreliable production methods/quality are not in this game. I prefer to fly without having to worry about engine failures & wings falling off!

just my take on it.
S!
-

Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 07:26 PM
Everybody makes excuses for the Germans all the time. What about BOB?

The LW the best air force? I don't think so. Lets imagine this.

Germany against the US. Both at full strength. No other country helping.

My money is on my country.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 07:41 PM
sebasgalland wrote:
- I consider the luftwaffe to be the best
- air force in the war..they fought in 3 different
- fronts against the 3 greatest world powers during 4
- years...which one of its oponents can say the
- same?...),
-
-

And were defeated by all three as well!

I have a great respect for the fighting skill and prowess of the Luftwaffe, but simply fighting a large number of opponents is not a reason for greatness.


-------------------------------------
When the (German) rationalisation drive began it was found that the armed forces had greatly inflated the demand for raw materials by exaggerating the quantity needed for each unit of production. The large firms held substantial stocks of scarce materials, particularly aluminium, which had been allocated on the basis of 16,000 lb for each aircraft, regardless of the fact that a fighter consumed only a quarter of this quantity. Aircraft firms had so much ingot aluminium in store that they used it to produce non-essential goods - ladder, greenhouses, even mosquito nets.

Professor R.J. Overy, 'War and Economy in the Third Reich'

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:06 PM
Russian stuff was good, just a different design philosophy. They viewed weapons system life spans a bit different, send a new squadron to the factory to be issued a whole matching block of brand new planes. Would fly them till losses or wear had whittled the squadron down to nothing, pull the survivors and reform a new squadron using beat survivor remnant planes to train. When back up to strength and trained go back to the plant to pick up new mounts. The worn stuff that remained was pretty much remelted and turned into new planes.

Different ideas in the west, stuff was rebuilt and designed to be upgraded and overhauled. Great if you have the industry and skilled personel to do it. Tough call, fly a rebuild or get a brand new one every year.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:32 PM
Fuel and oil supplies were obtained from the Allied units sharing the field

For those of you who pay attention and actually read, this should be the most important statement of this thread.

As for the spitfire wierdos who refuse to accept the fact that thier beloved planes could have been shot-down:

HA HA HA HA HA

Oh, and the same goes for you last p-51 robots who have not been beaten into submission yet.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:50 PM
Saburo_0 wrote:

--The German aces in their late war planes were stil not able to gain air superiority. They could make hit & run attacks and rack up incredible kill totatls but they couldn't stop the VVS from completing their missions in support of the army. Certainly the VVS planes were good enough, exactly how good I leave to the experts. I think Oleg & crew do a good job & i can't wait for patch 1.2
-
- i like planes from all countries but am glad that
- unreliable production methods/quality are not in
- this game. I prefer to fly without having to worry
- about engine failures & wings falling off!

I said I felt they are overdone, but not that they should be inferior to german planes, especially late war.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:51 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- My money is on my country.

We perfectly know this, and this probably applies for anything from planes to cereals to pink ink pens.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:55 PM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- Salute Voskhod5
-
- I'd like to see all the details of these so called
- "dogfights".
-
- If you do any kind of research you will see that the
- Spitfire VIII outperforms a Yak-9DD in all respects.
-
- 1. Lower wingloading
- 2. Better powerloading
- 3. Higher peak horsepower
- 4. Better climb
- 5. Higher top speed at all altitudes. -
- 6. Clipped wing version rolls better.


Very nice drumbeating, but how about the fact that all the Spitfire MkIXs the Soviets received were removed from the frontlines, because they were simply found to be incapable to fly sorties under frontline conditions, propellors dug into the ground too many times, the landing gear was just too weak and narrow, not to mention the greatest Soviet disappointment, very poor view from the cocpit to the rear ?

Seems the Soviets liked their domestic planes better for the task.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 08:59 PM
Nic,

I'll give you soccer../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:20 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Everybody makes excuses for the Germans all the
- time. What about BOB?
- The LW the best air force? I don't think so. Lets
- imagine this.
-
- Germany against the US. Both at full strength. No
- other country helping.
-
- My money is on my country.
-


Regarding the US long, drawn-out war with constant heavy losses, against a determined enemy, I would draw my conclusion from the last one. It was fought in the jungles, against an enemy that was mostly illitarate, lacking serious airforce and other goodies, in a semi-feudal country.

They had resolve, though.






Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:34 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
-
- Very nice drumbeating, but how about the fact that
- all the Spitfire MkIXs the Soviets received were
- removed from the frontlines, because they were
- simply found to be incapable to fly sorties under
- frontline conditions, propellors dug into the ground
- too many times, the landing gear was just too weak
- and narrow, not to mention the greatest Soviet
- disappointment, very poor view from the cocpit to
- the rear ?
-
- Seems the Soviets liked their domestic planes better
- for the task.
-

Good thing the Soviets were not flying `09s which were even worse than the Spits for rear vision.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:34 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Everybody makes excuses for the Germans all the
- time. What about BOB?

That defeat wasn't critically dependent on the quality
of the LW's pilots. It was a combination of poor
strategy, insufficient production (of spares largely, to
keep the LW sufficiently servicable), lack of long
range strategic bombers, and lack of long range fighters
(on both sides, but obviously more of an issue for the
attackers).

In a sense it was the beginning of the end for Germany
in that these problems tended to plague Germany
over the following 5 years.

In a sense the battle became a battle of production
and population, and a war of attrition in many ways,
on both East and West. (Bold attempts were made to
break out from the war of attrition, e.g. Market Garden,
but it was largely a slog).

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:38 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Good thing the Soviets were not flying `09s which
- were even worse than the Spits for rear vision.
-

Too bad it`s not true. The Erla canopy, coupled with the Galland Panzer provided very good vision, even to rear, where view was blocked by an armor plate even on bubble canopy planes (except soviet models, which used armor glass there, too).



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 10:41 PM
There's those excuses again. There's more to being a strong air force than planes and pilots../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Isegrim ,

I was talking about WW2 time. I have no doubt at all we're the strongest now.

Some guys feel during the 40's we were smucks, and couldn't win anything.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:46 PM
Buzz,

I merely expressed my doubts that US citizens would have very keen on continuing a war after the first 1 million bodies would be sent home under the scenario you mentioned. Face it, the US never fought any "life-or-death" style wars to the end, and I think it`s unlikely the citizens would support it too long, especially if nobody could tell them WHY the heck they need to fight that war at all. Which is just something that happened in Vietnam.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

Buzz_25th
10-17-2003, 10:52 PM
Well it was a hypothetical situation to begin with. Lets assume Germany was trying to take us over.

We would be in for the long haul believe me. It would be a tough fight for both of us, but I still believe we would have won.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:00 PM
Issy, the shape of the rear fuselage did not change from the F onwards. There was still the 'razorback' to contend with. The Spit had the Malcolm hood which allowed the pilot to look out past the side of the cockpit, that is to look around his head armour. The 109 pilot would be smashing his head on the Erla if he tried that.

The Erla allowed the 109 pilot to see better to the side with the removal of the large braces. The Galland had a metal frame around its edges impairing rear vision. Not all 109s had the Galland fitted either.

The bubble canopies on the Spit, P-47 and P-51 had a slight bulge that again allowed the pilot to move his head to see around the head armour.

Even the Fw190 had better 'rear vision' for it pilot compared to the 109.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:23 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Issy, the shape of the rear fuselage did not change
- from the F onwards. There was still the 'razorback'
- to contend with.

So was in the Spit, BTW. They just didn`t have transparent rear plate.


- The Spit had the Malcolm hood which
- allowed the pilot to look out past the side of the
- cockpit, that is to look around his head armour.

That`s right, a Spit pilot could push his face to the Malcolm hood (if we hypothesize he wasn`t fastened to his seat in the first place..), and could see.. well an inch further out.

http://www.pbase.com/image/11469128

A picture tells a thousend words.


- The
- 109 pilot would be smashing his head on the Erla if
- he tried that.

He didn`t need to. He only had to look behind, and do some waving with the rudder.

http://www.pbase.com/image/12107858

Note that even the tail unit is visible.

-
- The Erla allowed the 109 pilot to see better to the
- side with the removal of the large braces. The
- Galland had a metal frame around its edges impairing
- rear vision. Not all 109s had the Galland fitted
- either.

Yep, only from late 1943 onwards was it standard fitting.

http://www.pbase.com/image/12103526

-
- The bubble canopies on the Spit, P-47 and P-51 had a
- slight bulge that again allowed the pilot to move
- his head to see around the head armour.
-

Provided he wasn`t fastened to the seat, but he was. So all he see was a, the armor plate b, plus a peek from the edge of the armor plate.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:48 PM
DDad wrote:
- The most outstanding use of the dal'nevo deystviya
- probably occurred in August 1944 when a special
- eskadrilya of Yak-9DDs led by Mayor Ovcharenko was
- dispatched to Bari, in Italy, to assist the Yugoslav
- People's Liberation Army across the Adriatic.

This will be most interesting to duplicate when we get the Med, hopefully very soon after the next incarnation of the Battle of Britain.

<center>
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2cb22/KosSig.gif

Is the Bf-110C-4/B ready yet?<center>

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:12 AM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- MiloMorai wrote:
-- Issy, the shape of the rear fuselage did not change
-- from the F onwards. There was still the 'razorback'
-- to contend with.
-
- So was in the Spit, BTW. They just didn`t have
- transparent rear plate.
-

Never said it didn't. But it did have the Malcolm which allowed the pilot to see to the rear more without any of tail wagging the 109's pilot had to do.

-
-- The Spit had the Malcolm hood which
-- allowed the pilot to look out past the side of the
-- cockpit, that is to look around his head armour.
-
- That`s right, a Spit pilot could push his face to
- the Malcolm hood (if we hypothesize he wasn`t
- fastened to his seat in the first place..), and
- could see.. well an inch further out.
-

The lap belt was tight but the shoulder belts were NOT. Standard procedure was to cinch the shoulder belts tight before landing. It was still an 'inch' further than what the 109 pilot could move his head. It was closer to 3" really.

-
-- The
-- 109 pilot would be smashing his head on the Erla if
-- he tried that.
-
- He didn`t need to. He only had to look behind, and
- do some waving with the rudder.
-

Ah, so some tail wagging that slowed the a/c down. Yes, and all he would see was the bulkhead for the 'razorback' since his eye level was lower than the top of the 'razorback'. Shows very clearly in your posted image.

-
-
- Note that even the tail unit is visible.
-

It is? Where?

--
-- The Erla allowed the 109 pilot to see better to the
-- side with the removal of the large braces. The
-- Galland had a metal frame around its edges impairing
-- rear vision. Not all 109s had the Galland fitted
-- either.
-
- Yep, only from late 1943 onwards was it standard
- fitting.
-


Notice the metal frame around the Galland./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Standard? Is that why photos taken in 1944 of 109G6s show the old canopy and metal head armour? Is this standard like Flettner tabs are? There is still the metal frame around the galland that impairs vision.

-
--
-- The bubble canopies on the Spit, P-47 and P-51 had a
-- slight bulge that again allowed the pilot to move
-- his head to see around the head armour.
--
-
- Provided he wasn`t fastened to the seat, but he was.
- So all he see was a, the armor plate b, plus a peek
- from the edge of the armor plate.
-
-

Only the lap belt was cinched tight.



http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:50 AM
Still, view from the Erla/Galland canopy was better than that of the Malcolm hooded Spit.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:05 AM
DONB3397 wrote:
- The P-51B fought with an Allison engine, the D with
- a RR Merlin. Is that a difference?

Well I'd say it made a big enough difference. The Merlin powerplant turned the P51 into one of the best fighters of the war.

Oh and great post DDad /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>http://www.poprivet.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Forums/Sig/ALTERNATE2.jpg </center>

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 01:10 AM
The P-51 was designed as the NA-73 in 1940 at Britain's request. The design showed promise and AAF purchases of Allison-powered Mustangs began in 1941 primarily for photo recon and ground support use due to its limited high-altitude performance. But in 1942, tests of P-51s using the British Rolls-Royce "Merlin" engine revealed much improved speed and service ceiling, and in Dec. 1943, Merlin-powered P-51Bs first entered combat over Europe. Providing high-altitude escort to B-17s and B-24s, they scored heavily over German interceptors and by war's end, P-51s had destroyed 4,950 enemy aircraft in the air, more than any other fighter in Europe.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:35 AM
Cossack13 wrote:
-
- This will be most interesting to duplicate when we
- get the Med, hopefully very soon after the next
- incarnation of the Battle of Britain.


IF we EVER get the Med...!!!

From what I read around the forums I would not bet too much money on it... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Actually Pilawskii's book is absolutely brilliant, had not got to the Yak9 section yet, so thank you DDad for sharing with us: I knew some Yaks were in Bari during the war, but I had never been able to find much info, so I'll go back to reading the book as soon as I finish this post!

One thing: I really do not understand why people get so partisan about planes: I was born and raised in Italy, but I would never go on telling everybody that the Reggiane Re.2005 was the most beautiful plane ever built or that the Macchi C.205 was the best mid-war dogfighter (even if I would just love to have flyable models of them - yeah, yeah, dream on..!).

The reason why the P-51 was a war-winning machine was because it could escort bombers right to the heart of the Reich, not because it was the best dogfighter around (it probably wasn't), but I doubt many people would want to fly "realistic" missions of 8 hours or so in a flight sim.

And why oh why do Russky planes have to be inferior to western ones? If they were so crap, how comes the Russians won the war?

I am a bit fed up with the Cold War myth that everything coming from the Russia was/is technologically obsolete and shoddily made.

Who ideated and realised IL2 and FB? Microsoft..?


http://www.uploadit.org/files/151003-leone.gif

"Serenissima"

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:48 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:

- Regarding the US long, drawn-out war with constant
- heavy losses, against a determined enemy, I would
- draw my conclusion from the last one. It was fought
- in the jungles, against an enemy that was mostly
- illitarate, lacking serious airforce and other
- goodies, in a semi-feudal country.
-
- They had resolve, though.


I hope you wrote this realizing that US never really fought this war with any real "resolve" itself; piecemealing it's way into this war with half-thought out and minimal effort. Don't think for a second that the US Army and Marine Corp couldn't have started from the Mekong Delta with full armoured divisions and complete freedom to attack and HOLD whatever land they felt necessary and finished up at the Chinese Border within two years. But seeing the consequences of similar actions 15 years earlier in a place called Korea, our government was not willing to do ANYTHING to escalate another fight with Red China in the middle of the Cold War. I hope your not counting the way this war was fought until Nixon as a measure of how US forces fight? That would be so .....I don't wanna say stupid, whats the word....but a better example would be the 1991 Gulf War for measuring if we would beat Germany. Hmmmph now I feel dumb for even responding to this.


But anyway thanks DDad for posting this information, tired of people whinning about VVS flight models, maybe this will cool em off a little.

http://www.hut.fi/~andres/m44/m44_5t.jpg

Brought to you by Pe-8; proud sponsor of "KABOOM" breakfast cereal

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 12:18 AM
-- Anyway, isn't P-51B better dogfighter than D?
-
- I would think so, since Soviet Ace Ivan Kozhedub was
- able to down two P 51D's in a single engagement in
- his La7.


What was Kozhedub shooting at P 51's for? Was he a serious team killer or what? I'm confused please explain.

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 12:28 AM
Xnomad

If you read the thread you'll get your answer. Kozhedub wasn't a team killer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 04:29 AM
Salute Isegrim

Once again you are showing your ignorance of things American.

I'm not an American myself, but I take the time to examine the realities of losses Americans were prepared to suffer.

For example, their Civil war.

Deaths in that war were in the order of 600,000. out of a population of approximately 25 million.

However, boasting about how much suffering a nation is prepared to suffer is actually irrelevant.

Americans are noticeably different from other nations in that their citizens are unwilling to die for causes which appear to them to be either stupid or irrelevant.

The American public was smart enough during the Vietnam era, to determine that their leaders had involved them in a useless and wasteful war. So they left.

However, don't make the mistake of thinking that Americans are not willing to die for a cause they believe in.

If you gave them a real reason to feel threatened, they would be as determined and brave as any people.

But of course, American Generals take notice of the first lesson of warfare. As Patton, that overrated, but still capable U.S. General summed it up in his practical way:

"...the idea is not to die for your country but to make the other son of a b*tch die for his country."

RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 04:48 AM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- Buzz,
-
- I merely expressed my doubts that US citizens would
- have very keen on continuing a war after the first 1
- million bodies would be sent home under the scenario
- you mentioned. Face it, the US never fought any
- "life-or-death" style wars to the end, and I think
- it`s unlikely the citizens would support it too
- long, especially if nobody could tell them WHY the
- heck they need to fight that war at all. Which is
- just something that happened in Vietnam.

Hitler thought the same thing.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 12:27 PM
TO MANY PATRIOTS IN THIS THREAD,


HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO BE OBJECTIVE? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

seriusly please stop this bullsh!t.



<ceter>http://www.funnypictureswebsite.com/funnypictures/funny-pictures213.jpg </center>