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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:06 AM
First, you guys know quite a bit about flying and this is something that has been nagging me for a few days.


For the 4th, we went to St. Louis (We live about 40 minutes away) and they had an air show. In this air show, a certain prop plane (I have no idea what kind it was. The only way I can describe it is as a 'stunt plane' -- pretty vague, huh?) did a trick that just started screwing with me.


Basicly, he went into a dive and pulled up (The announcer mentioned something about him having to "adjust his power") and shortly after pulling up, he slowed down to a stop in mid air. The nose was pointing up at about a 45 degree angle. He continued to stay in the same spot for 10ish seconds. This wasn't just a fancy stall where he went up, lost speed, and slowly fell back down. This was a complete stop, minus a little movement to the left (Torque?). Eventually, he leaned forward and flew off.

How did he manage to do this? Is it even remotely possible to do in IL2? It was just one of the neater stunts I've ever seen.



Second, is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering worth $40 to a newbie whose only tactic when flying is to try to keep turning until I slowly end up behind the Rookie AI? Or is it just kind of a dull read for someone who really doesn't know much about flight to begin with? (Although, I've gotten a few online kills, and a few Average AI kills. It's nothing to brag about, I guess -- But they were my first, so I'm proud.)


Third, are there any special tips to hard turning? (Other than the slider thing. I'm new, but not that new. The last thing I want is to be another RBJ.)

I can crank it back in the Yak-3, and it turns insanly well -- but the problem is, I blackout to the point of seeing absolutely nothing. Anything less and it seems like I'm out turned (This is vs a Hurricane.)



Fourth, what's a good fighter to practice against? I've been going against the Hurricane just because it's slow, but it's rediculous menuverability is just kind of hard to keep up with sometimes.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:06 AM
First, you guys know quite a bit about flying and this is something that has been nagging me for a few days.


For the 4th, we went to St. Louis (We live about 40 minutes away) and they had an air show. In this air show, a certain prop plane (I have no idea what kind it was. The only way I can describe it is as a 'stunt plane' -- pretty vague, huh?) did a trick that just started screwing with me.


Basicly, he went into a dive and pulled up (The announcer mentioned something about him having to "adjust his power") and shortly after pulling up, he slowed down to a stop in mid air. The nose was pointing up at about a 45 degree angle. He continued to stay in the same spot for 10ish seconds. This wasn't just a fancy stall where he went up, lost speed, and slowly fell back down. This was a complete stop, minus a little movement to the left (Torque?). Eventually, he leaned forward and flew off.

How did he manage to do this? Is it even remotely possible to do in IL2? It was just one of the neater stunts I've ever seen.



Second, is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering worth $40 to a newbie whose only tactic when flying is to try to keep turning until I slowly end up behind the Rookie AI? Or is it just kind of a dull read for someone who really doesn't know much about flight to begin with? (Although, I've gotten a few online kills, and a few Average AI kills. It's nothing to brag about, I guess -- But they were my first, so I'm proud.)


Third, are there any special tips to hard turning? (Other than the slider thing. I'm new, but not that new. The last thing I want is to be another RBJ.)

I can crank it back in the Yak-3, and it turns insanly well -- but the problem is, I blackout to the point of seeing absolutely nothing. Anything less and it seems like I'm out turned (This is vs a Hurricane.)



Fourth, what's a good fighter to practice against? I've been going against the Hurricane just because it's slow, but it's rediculous menuverability is just kind of hard to keep up with sometimes.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:25 AM
And one last question -- Is there any decent book that gives you decent information/history on most/all of the planes included in FB?

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:25 AM
Valael wrote:

- How did he manage to do this? Is it even remotely
- possible to do in IL2? It was just one of the
- neater stunts I've ever seen.


Immelman or hammerhead the flight model in FB handles ehm quite well. Yep you can do them.



-
- Second, is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering
- worth $40 to a newbie whose only tactic when flying
- is to try to keep turning until I slowly end up
- behind the Rookie AI? Or is it just kind of a dull
- read for someone who really doesn't know much about
- flight to begin with? (Although, I've gotten a few
- online kills, and a few Average AI kills. It's
- nothing to brag about, I guess -- But they were my
- first, so I'm proud.)
-
-
hav enot read it .. sorry

- Third, are there any special tips to hard turning?
- (Other than the slider thing. I'm new, but not that
- new. The last thing I want is to be another RBJ.)
-
- I can crank it back in the Yak-3, and it turns
- insanly well -- but the problem is, I blackout to
- the point of seeing absolutely nothing. Anything
- less and it seems like I'm out turned (This is vs a
- Hurricane.)
-

i think there hurricane can out-turn a Yak 3 actually. in that situation you would probably use your superior speed to extend away and then yo-yo back down

even though the yak 3 is aturn fighter you would boom and zoom a hurricane

-
- Fourth, what's a good fighter to practice against?
- I've been going against the Hurricane just because
- it's slow, but it's rediculous menuverability is
- just kind of hard to keep up with sometimes.
-
-

if you are flying yaks chose as target LW fighters say a 190 A$ or Emil first up

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:50 AM
-- How did he manage to do this? Is it even remotely
-- possible to do in IL2? It was just one of the
-- neater stunts I've ever seen.
-
-
- Immelman or hammerhead the flight model in FB
- handles ehm quite well. Yep you can do them.

well, not really. While the aircraft in FB can do Immelmans and hammerheads (which are types stalls, or stall turns...) they don't have the thrust-to-weight ratio needed to do hovering on the prop (for lack of a better word) type maneuvers like you saw. I think you said 10 seconds.....and a hammerhead is just a couple at most. What you probably saw was some Extra 300 type aerobatic plane doing a "3D" type stunt, where the airplane is actually hanging on its prop like a helicopter hovers. pretty cool stuff. using the (HUGE) rudder and elevators the pilot can actually maneuver it around like that, to a certain degree. Incidently, the trend towards these types of maneuvers was influenced by R/C (radio control) aerobatic aircraft, especially the large 33% scale models that compete on a world-class level. Yeah, Im into R/C planes......

-- Second, is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering
-- worth $40 to a newbie

it all depends on what you want out of it. I have it, and its a great read, not just from a tactical "how do I fight online" point of view, but if you are at all into the history of air combat, and want a VERY detailed study of it, this is a great book. if you just want to find out how to boom and zoom, or angles fight, you can probably find enough resources and guidelines online at the various IL2 and flight sim sites. just surf around.....

-- Third, are there any special tips to hard turning?
-- (Other than the slider thing. I'm new, but not that
-- new. The last thing I want is to be another RBJ.)
--
-- I can crank it back in the Yak-3, and it turns
-- insanly well

Well, Im more of a boom and zoomer myself, but the key is getting to know the aircraft and finding its most efficient speed/radius of turn. That and using a gentle touch on the stick, ie. by no means do you just pull it back to the stops. Otherwise you'll initiate a stall, which is NOT an efficient way to turn!

-- Fourth, what's a good fighter to practice against?
-- I've been going against the Hurricane just because
-- it's slow, but it's rediculous menuverability is
-- just kind of hard to keep up with sometimes.

train like you fight. ie. fly against all of them! If you fly online, you'll see a lot of 109s, yaks and Laggs. heck, just about every type of AC can be found in the skies. fly each of them offline to get a feel for their capabilities, max speeds at various altitudes, etc. I dont think there is one fighter that could be considered the best to practice against.

Anyways, have fun with FB!!! its an immensely entertaining game, and simulation, and as you can see, the possibilities are endless............

-ron

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 09:15 AM
- For the 4th, we went to St. Louis (We live about 40
- minutes away) and they had an air show. In this air
- show, a certain prop plane (I have no idea what kind
- it was. The only way I can describe it is as a
- 'stunt plane' -- pretty vague, huh?) did a trick
- that just started screwing with me.
-

Probably an extra 300s.. was it a bi or mono plane?


-
- Basicly, he went into a dive and pulled up (The
- announcer mentioned something about him having to
- "adjust his power") and shortly after pulling up, he
- slowed down to a stop in mid air. The nose was
- pointing up at about a 45 degree angle. He
- continued to stay in the same spot for 10ish
- seconds. This wasn't just a fancy stall where he
- went up, lost speed, and slowly fell back down.
- This was a complete stop, minus a little movement to
- the left (Torque?). Eventually, he leaned forward
- and flew off.
-
- How did he manage to do this? Is it even remotely
- possible to do in IL2? It was just one of the
- neater stunts I've ever seen.

It's quite a common trick, and quite impressive. It's shown on this video clip:

http://203.221.80.225/airshow.wmv

server is quite slow (max 12kbps), so if its slow come back later.

-Hareball




--------------------------------------
We should have all the generalizing extremists taken out and shot.
--------------------------------------

michapma
07-09-2003, 01:01 PM
Hi Valael,

Welcome to the community. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

I think your question about the stunts have been answered. You can't do it in IL-2 because there are no planes built with this kind of thrust/weight ratio.

- Second, is Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering

I just bought this book but have been wanting it for months. I haven't taken time yet to look at it, but I want to start soon. If you are budget conscious at the moment I think you will want to hold off on it until you are sure you enjoy combat simulation. I'm already convinced it's a great read though.

- Third, are there any special tips to hard turning?
- (Other than the slider thing. I'm new, but not that
- new. The last thing I want is to be another RBJ.)

The most important tip is not to overdo it. Don't do it too often and don't do it too hard for too long. Turning hard burns off your energy (in the form of airspeed in a horizontal turn). It may be fun to pull out of a hard turn and end up on the enemy's tail, but it doesn't happen often and puts you in a good position to wind up with someone else on your tail. As you learn more you'll hear the terms angles fighter, energy fighter and boom and zoom. These terms describe the type of tactics employed by a fighter. They're relative, meaning that in any given fighter which tactic you employ depends on what you're up against.

When you are performing your hard horizontal turns (they're good practice for learning the aircraft and often you do need them), keep one eye on how your nose is relative to the horizon. Put your plane on its side (a knife-edge turn) and pull back somewhat on the stick. If your nose is below the horizon you'll be losing altitude, if much above you'll be gaining altitude. Losing altitude is a way to keep airspeed up in the turn, gaining altitude is a way to burn off excess speed (there is an airspeed for each aircraft at which its rate of turn is optimal, and if above this speed you might as well trade some airspeed for altitude so you can turn optimally). Learn how far you can pull back on your stick at various speeds without losing speed. You will need to learn this for each aircraft, so stay with one aircraft for a while.

The I-16 is a great fighter in which to learn turn fighting. Use the type 24, it has cannons, and while learning gunnery carry unlimited ammo but try to use it judiciously anyway to build good habits. The I-16 can outturn most aircraft and any Luftwaffe aircraft. It's slow, but the AI will turn fight with you. Watch out—negative G maneuvers will kill the engine in this plane, because its carburettor is gravity fed. Unfortunately you can't restart it in the air, you have to make a dead-stick landing (and restart it on the ground if you like) or bail.

Every fighter is actually an energy fighter. You should always strive to maintain energy levels (airspeed, altitude and fuel) whether you are turn fighting or extending away and reengaging. Later you can learn to use superior energy levels to quickly close on a foe, fire from a position of advantage, and get out of range of his or his pals' guns before they have a chance to use them on you. When you do this from above, it is called boom and zoom. You descend at high speeds, fire, and zoom climb (trading speed for altitude) away from the danger.

- I can crank it back in the Yak-3, and it turns
- insanly well -- but the problem is, I blackout to
- the point of seeing absolutely nothing. Anything
- less and it seems like I'm out turned (This is vs a
- Hurricane.)

The Yak-3 is one of the fastest turning high-speed fighters. Again, don't try turning hard at those high speeds, use your speed to get altitude and then turn hard, or turn gradually at the high speed. Learn to get distance from your opponent (without losing track of him) then turn and engage from a position of advantage. Always seek to fire from an "unfair" position of advantage, that's the way it's best done.

Instead of just out-turning your opponent, learn to outrun them, outclimb them, out-time them, etc. Learn about various maneuvers and practice them, then see how they help in combat.

A lot of maneuvers that work against AI don't work well against humans, and some that don't will. Don't think fighting AI and humans are very similar. Start fighting humans from the get-go, get online and you are likely to learn faster, but don't let anyone get under your skin.

- Fourth, what's a good fighter to practice against?
- I've been going against the Hurricane just because
- it's slow, but it's rediculous menuverability is
- just kind of hard to keep up with sometimes.

Learn gunnery before engaging fighters. First select larger and slower targets like the He-111, TB-3 or Pe-8 with their weapons load set to empty. Learn to match their speed, altitude and heading and fly at distances behind them varying from 0.05 to 1.0 kilometers (use icons). Practice firing at them from these distances while matching their flight. Next try firing at them from angles—above, from the side, from head-on—and note how much deflection is needed (deflection is more complicated than just angles, it involves relative speeds). Then give the bomber ammunition and see how you do. You'll find that attacks from the front and sides are most effective.

Once you have confidence hitting bombers and maneuvering to avoid fire, you'll be better able to engage enemy fighters.

Let us know how you fare!

Hope it helps,
Mike


<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 01:19 PM
One can tell Chap is a SKULL. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif S!


More info on planes can be found on the mainpage:
http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/fb_aircraft.php

And some flight basics over at mudmovers:
http://www.mudmovers.com/tutorials/how_to_fly.htm

And more in-depth about Complex Engine Management like pitch 'n trim etc:
http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_cem.htm

And then you've got some good PDF documents on your second FB-disc under the Document folder.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 01:21 PM
Valael wrote:
- And one last question -- Is there any decent book
- that gives you decent information/history on
- most/all of the planes included in FB?
-
-


Take a look at the attached url - it's free and pretty good.

http://www.casquadron.com/ACM/

Very useful for multi player.

michapma
07-09-2003, 04:03 PM
Olga knows I'm a SKULLS pilot...

But I don't wanna get this locked. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:07 PM
It was a mono plane. After watching the video, I'm pretty sure it was an Extra 300s.



And to the other posters -- Thanks a lot for the information. I'll get reading as soon as I get a little bit of free time.



But a question -- If the fighter you're going against is just trying to out turn you, how do you counter it? It seems like if you try to fly off and gain altitude, he just turns towards you and you end up in a head on (Too freaking dangerous.)



As for the whole bomber thing -- That's all I ever did since I bought the game when it was released (Albeit, not very often. I'm still a newbie. And I also never did it with an empty bomber.) So I figured I'd give fighters a try.


I'd hop online, but my connection has been pretty crappy these past few days...Maybe today.



Message Edited on 07/09/0303:37PM by Valael

michapma
07-09-2003, 04:25 PM
SCHADEN,


Wow, nice resource. (pic of eyes bugging out)

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>