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hugohugo37
11-17-2005, 05:31 PM
Say you are in a scramble situation and want to get to altitude as quickly as possible...Is it better to climb with combat flaps or raised flaps? I realise there is a battle going on between extra lift and added drag. And yes I could run some experiments myself but I was just wondering what you all do. Thanks.

danjama
11-17-2005, 05:36 PM
The steeper u wanna climb, use flaps. Id deploy flaps when climbing at 200kmh and below. If ur climbin at above 200kmh then no flaps needed. Its harder to balance plane with flaps down though. Id raise them once above 1200m if im scrambling, actually even if i wasnt i would raise em. no flaps = less drag and more speed (climb).

Man i have confused myself.

Anothrer way of putting it, depends what mood im in http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
11-17-2005, 07:03 PM
When I was a newbie I used flaps to climb...but then lots of other guys were outclimbing me without flaps and so I learned from that.

In general, you want to stay away from flaps and use the best climb speed. Whatever that may be for your given plane. Flaps just cause you drag and hinder you're ability to get to best climb speed.

Even in a scramble situation I'd prefer to be faster and climbing slower.

neural_dream
11-17-2005, 07:11 PM
When climbing flaps are only to drop a little bit the stall speed. When you want to climb fast you don't go at stall speed, you go at optimal speed (say 260km/h), which is easier when you don't unnecessarily lose energy due to flaps.

Zeus-cat
11-17-2005, 08:47 PM
Think about it, flaps, ailerons, rudder and elevators all cause drag. If you want to climb, dive or fly level as fast as you can, then minimize your drag - no flaps.

Zeus-cat

ronison
11-17-2005, 09:06 PM
Adding to what Zeus said: Drag = slower speeds. Slower speeds = less climb, Add flaps = about the climb you loose without flaps.

Flaps = slower speed, Slower speeds = more valnurable to planes at higher energy states, usuly ones above you.

Though your trade is probably nearly the same as far as climb rate, the energy you loose from slowing yourself down can be a killer to a enemy that is in better position.

Bearcat99
11-17-2005, 09:35 PM
If it is just climbing to altitude trim climb.. that will give you a steady ROC... also set your pitch to @70-80 and your throttle to @70-80... it will slow you down a little at first but it will quickly catch up. If you are talking about a combat climb then thing E management... altitude for E... zoom climbing etc.. Think about it... even in a scramble... what does it matter how fast you get up if when you get there you are wallowing around at near stall speed because you climbed too steeply? The best way to get up quick is to try to maintain the best balance between speed and ROC (Rate of Climb)

polak5
11-18-2005, 03:07 AM
Aldough u may feel that u climb better with combat flaps, dont be fooled ur also creating drag.

WTE_Snowhawk
11-18-2005, 03:12 AM
Wanna climb fast? Get rid of flaps. Flaps are for a few things:
1 - decrease your stall speed so that you can safely land slower, reducing your groundroll and also making damage your aircraft less likely.
2 - To increase your AOD (Angle of descent). Think of this as glide path relative to the ground, it actually gets steeper when you deploy flaps.
3 - To increase forward visibility. This is a subtle one that I didn't know about until I actually started my private pilot's course. When you deploy flaps, you can maintain straight and level flight at what appears to be a smaller angle of attack than when you have a clean airframe. I say appears, because flaps effectively increase the aoa of the wing, so the wing's AOA is the same, but the nose pitches down, allowing you greater visibility, a real benefit when on final approach.

Notice that none of these have anything to do with climbing.

The only time you will use flaps on takeoff is when you wish you had more runway, such as when you've got a short field, or you're carrying an increased load.
Since flaps reduce your stall speed, your Vtos (takeoff safety speed) will be slower with flaps deployed, by the same token, you will also be generating more drag, and therefore climbing slower than your full potential, so as soon as you pass Vs (stall speed clean) retract them, and fly away. less drag = better climb

*information paraphrased from "Bob Tait - CPL Aerodynamics"

Interestingly, all aircraft designs have individual speeds for BROC (best rate of climb) and BAOC (best angle of climb).
Best rate is exactly that, a rate. You'll get as high as you can as fast as you can.
Best angle gives you the steepest climb, only useful to avoid obstacles, or other geographic features. After a minute, you'll be higher employing BROC than BAOC.
These speeds are usually published in the AC's manual, so if anyone out there has any electronic reproductions of manuals for the AC's in IL2, a link would be great!

S!

p1ngu666
11-18-2005, 03:27 AM
low flying p51 would put on combat flap to change AoA, thus giving them a better view forward http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AlGroover
11-18-2005, 03:28 AM
I thought optimum ROC was in the PDF manual but I just had a look and it's not there. Perhaps the EAW manual? From memory it's about 250 km/h in most aircraft. Take heed of Bearcat and use your elevator trim to pull your airspeed back to the optimum ROC speed. I also seem to remember that some aircraft such as FW190 climb better with a 'step climb' technique. Try it.

hugohugo37
11-18-2005, 09:37 AM
Thanks to all for your responses. They were clear and informative.

Kuna15
11-18-2005, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
Think about it, flaps, ailerons, rudder and elevators all cause drag. If you want to climb, dive or fly level as fast as you can, then minimize your drag - no flaps.

Zeus-cat

Agreed 100%. If we want to be as fast as possible (in climb too) then lot of throttle power + proper trim without other inputs from ailerons, rudder or flaps.
And also radiator closed (risking quick overheat, tho) I climb with open radiator normally, but in combat enviroment that changes.
Full aerodynamic.

Ugly_Kid
11-18-2005, 10:18 AM
There are two climb speed in an aircraft. The best climb rate and the best climb angle. The former is at higher speed and the latter nearer to the stall speed. If you temporarily need to climb steeper, flaps might be of assistance but they won't make you climb faster just as a slowing down isn't going to make you climb faster.

Typical mistake, many people try to follow 109 in a spiral climb, they get suckered into keeping the nose in the target and gradually slow down below their ride's optimum climb speed - that's often the last mistake. Also many think FW 190 don't climb worth a ****, no it doesn't if you hang it on its prop and try to get away from spit in this game, at 350 km/h spit is much harder pressed to keep up.

msalama
11-18-2005, 04:14 PM
...for the AC's in IL2, a link would be great!

Some of them here (http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/HandlingNotes/).

Tully__
11-19-2005, 04:20 AM
Best climb is achieved when you have most excess energy (above & beyond that required to fly level). Drag from flaps reduces the available excess energy. Leave 'em up.