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S.taibanzai
06-21-2005, 06:41 PM
S al

I was in a mission at CW flying bf Emil 4

and begind a yak type 1

He saw me and suddenly he pulled the stick from like 3000 metrs alt

And pulled his plane in a stal spin for me to overshoot him

Wel i overshot him turn up and see him below at 9 position

Go after him again and this time alt was between 1500 and 2000 cant remember it clearly but not higher than this for sure


Wat do you now he pulled the same trick and recover it each time

It was like a flat roll spin stal

but al mine canons was empty becuase i shot down before two yaks

So we are turning in to scisors

i manage to hit him a few times in that scisors
fight

but was forced to break of atack from my engine

was overheated

But its this real FM behavor pulling in to a spin stal at purpose at this low alts and recover easely from mine point of view

like i saw it he did it twice on purpose

keeping enery qute good

If this is not normal please say so

if it is al ok for me

pdog1
06-21-2005, 07:04 PM
He was cheating. His name wasn't Viks by any chance/

diomedes33
06-21-2005, 07:04 PM
I honestly don't know if its accurate or not, but its definatly not realistic.

If a real life pilot did stunts like that they'd be puking all over themselves and so disoriented that they would be an easy kill.

Its a shame that fatigue, disorientation and discomfort (i.e. negative g's, stick whirring, etc ...) aren't modeled. I think you'd see a lot less of these bogus maneuvers. Even in World War II, the pilot was the limiting factor for quite a bit.

Cragger
06-21-2005, 09:14 PM
Actually he was probably doing a manuever that is specifically created to force an overshoot. It does not lead to a uncontrolled stall which is why its so easy to recover from. I use it alot when I want to throw off a fast closing aircrafts aim and force an overshoot.

And no I'm not going to tell you how to do it because I know how annoying it is to shoot at me when I'm doing it so I don't want to have to shoot at another doing it. So this one is mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Jetbuff
06-21-2005, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by diomedes33:
I honestly don't know if its accurate or not, but its definatly not realistic.
I was about to argue against that... but you went on to say..

If a real life pilot did stunts like that they'd be puking all over themselves and so disoriented that they would be an easy kill.

Its a shame that fatigue, disorientation and discomfort (i.e. negative g's, stick whirring, etc ...) aren't modeled. I think you'd see a lot less of these bogus maneuvers. Even in World War II, the pilot was the limiting factor for quite a bit.
Which I agree with 100%. Even back then, the pilot was more often the limitation as opposed to the plane. (G-suits came to the scene quite late) The pilot "DM" is probably the most simplisticly modelled feature of this sim when compared to its real-life counterpart. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OTOH, everything else in the sim is so good, I find it hard to get discouraged over such minutiae.

S.taibanzai
06-22-2005, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Cragger:
Actually he was probably doing a manuever that is specifically created to force an overshoot. It does not lead to a uncontrolled stall which is why its so easy to recover from. I use it alot when I want to throw off a fast closing aircrafts aim and force an overshoot.

And no I'm not going to tell you how to do it because I know how annoying it is to shoot at me when I'm doing it so I don't want to have to shoot at another doing it. So this one is mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

No it was not maneuvering for sure

It was on purpose stalling to trow of aim from atacking aircaft

If this is a fm bug it must be fixed for al aircaft

F19_Ob
06-22-2005, 02:43 AM
Stalls and spins are gentler in all planes.
With gentler I mean that it's now possible to pull harder and longer than in 3.04. and it takes a while before anything serious happens.

The p39 is The most difficult plane in a full spin .
Most others are easier to recover now than in 3.04.
The p51, for example, is recoverable from 750m from it's hardest spin, and from higher altitudes , say 2000m no recovery is needed more than throttling down. U can even release the stick if u want to, it recovers by itself.

So the people doing the spins u described are obviosly using it as an exploit, like a cheat.

I already posted about the stalls and spins in the bugreport, but if more people describe this it might get looked at. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Harti
06-22-2005, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
The p39 is The only and most difficult plane in a full spin wich normally is unrecoverable from 3000m. Most others are easier to recover now than in 3.04.


Thats not realy true. you can ask Leadspitter and JG53Hunter. They both tested this and this can not be confirmed.

F19_Ob
06-22-2005, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by JG53Harti:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
The p39 is The only and most difficult plane in a full spin wich normally is unrecoverable from 3000m. Most others are easier to recover now than in 3.04.


Thats not realy true. you can ask Leadspitter and JG53Hunter. They both tested this and this can not be confirmed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes u're right. (I edited it now) Sorry I mistook the height.
I saw wrong in my notes. It should be 1000m not 3000 . Sorry bout that.
I tested most planes from 5000, 3000, 2000, 1000m
P51 was possible to recover from 750m in it's hardest spin.

So the p39 is indeed possible to recover from 3000m 10 times of 10. It's the hardest to recover compared to the rest though.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cragger
06-22-2005, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by S.taibanzai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cragger:
Actually he was probably doing a manuever that is specifically created to force an overshoot. It does not lead to a uncontrolled stall which is why its so easy to recover from. I use it alot when I want to throw off a fast closing aircrafts aim and force an overshoot.

And no I'm not going to tell you how to do it because I know how annoying it is to shoot at me when I'm doing it so I don't want to have to shoot at another doing it. So this one is mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

No it was not maneuvering for sure

It was on purpose stalling to trow of aim from atacking aircaft

If this is a fm bug it must be fixed for al aircaft </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who says a deliberate stall isn't a maneuvering? It forces an overshoot and ruins an opponents aim. Eric Hartmann used a deliberate controlled spin to this effect a few times. Aerobatics aircraft stall all the time and recover at low altitude its not instant death like you think.

If you really wanted to know what he was doing you would have switched on the recorder and then watched his control surfaces later in the track.

Right now you have no proof this is a bug, maybe he just knew how to do something you didn't? I can enter and exit flat spins at will, even in the P-39/63 it just takes longer.

vocatx
06-22-2005, 06:47 PM
I was flying on Zekes v. Wildcats Monday night, and there was somebody there flying a Spit pulling maneuvers like you describe. He discovered that he couldn't out-turn a Ki-43. If I ever got close on his six, he would enter what looked to be a full spin. This usually happened right over the tree tops. He would consistantly spin and recover at will from extremely low altitude. After I had seen this a couple of times, I knew what to expect, but the first two times I flew right over him as he was spinning, expecting to see "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" displayed any second, only to have tracers flying past almost immediately.

I was not the only person to witness this, or to have this tactic used against him. The person who's wing I was flying upon entering the furball actually got shot down after having ahd this done to him. I saw the Spit stall and spin, and we both thought he would crash. As we banked toward another threat, I saw the Spit recover and begin shooting at my leader.

How this fellow is spinning from the low altitudes that he is and recovering is a mystery to me. And he is not using a snap roll. I know full well what a snap roll is and how to perform one, this is a spin. Can anybody explain how these maneuvers are being performed?

I'm not saying that anyone is cheating, they have just found a new tactic available under the new FM. It works, but it surely isn't realistic.

dadada1
06-23-2005, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Cragger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by S.taibanzai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cragger:
Actually he was probably doing a manuever that is specifically created to force an overshoot. It does not lead to a uncontrolled stall which is why its so easy to recover from. I use it alot when I want to throw off a fast closing aircrafts aim and force an overshoot.



And no I'm not going to tell you how to do it because I know how annoying it is to shoot at me when I'm doing it so I don't want to have to shoot at another doing it. So this one is mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

No it was not maneuvering for sure

It was on purpose stalling to trow of aim from atacking aircaft

If this is a fm bug it must be fixed for al aircaft </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who says a deliberate stall isn't a maneuvering? It forces an overshoot and ruins an opponents aim. Eric Hartmann used a deliberate controlled spin to this effect a few times. Aerobatics aircraft stall all the time and recover at low altitude its not instant death like you think.

If you really wanted to know what he was doing you would have switched on the recorder and then watched his control surfaces later in the track.

Right now you have no proof this is a bug, maybe he just knew how to do something you didn't? I can enter and exit flat spins at will, even in the P-39/63 it just takes longer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not queerying the validity of this manouver, just where you state that Hartmann used this controlled spin. From what I remember his prefered escape manouver was a negative G loop where he would push the stick fully forward, which meant he was being suspended in the cockpit and held by his harness. Where did you read about him using a controlled spin ?

Pirschjaeger
06-23-2005, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by vocatx:
I was flying on Zekes v. Wildcats Monday night, and there was somebody there flying a Spit pulling maneuvers like you describe. He discovered that he couldn't out-turn a Ki-43. If I ever got close on his six, he would enter what looked to be a full spin. This usually happened right over the tree tops. He would consistantly spin and recover at will from extremely low altitude. After I had seen this a couple of times, I knew what to expect, but the first two times I flew right over him as he was spinning, expecting to see "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" displayed any second, only to have tracers flying past almost immediately.

I was not the only person to witness this, or to have this tactic used against him. The person who's wing I was flying upon entering the furball actually got shot down after having ahd this done to him. I saw the Spit stall and spin, and we both thought he would crash. As we banked toward another threat, I saw the Spit recover and begin shooting at my leader.

How this fellow is spinning from the low altitudes that he is and recovering is a mystery to me. And he is not using a snap roll. I know full well what a snap roll is and how to perform one, this is a spin. Can anybody explain how these maneuvers are being performed?

I'm not saying that anyone is cheating, they have just found a new tactic available under the new FM. It works, but it surely isn't realistic.

This is the first time I've heard of anyone using this besides me. I like to fly the Fw190A4 and this is the best plane for the stall maneuvers. It's very easy to instantly obtain the stall and it's almost as fast to recover.

We all know that when you've lost your energy with the 190 it's will take a long time to recover. If you want to learn the stall tactics then you must practice them. No one can describe how it works from the point of the controls. There are too many variables.

I suggested to my squadron that they practice it and they thought I was crazy. I guess only I could understand my theory. I took the time, often using smoking wingtips, to practice and study tracks to see what was possible. Then I used it in combat and it was a life saver.

There have been times where I had an enemy on my 6. I simply pull a quick stall and recovery and then I'm on his 6. I usually won't have the energy to catch him but my best shoot rage is between 500 and 750 m with my convergences set at 200m.

I've had guyz accuse me of cheating because I used stall tactics. To think this is cheating is like saying the guy with the TrackIR is cheating because I only have a hatswitch. Some guyz simple tell me I was just lucky and they are right. I'm lucky I thought of it and learnt it. It's a computer game. Cheating is only when you change the programming.

It's well worth the time and practice to have another weapon in your arsenal to save your ****.

Fritz

griego
06-23-2005, 09:56 AM
That TOP GUN move is unrealistic, and everyone here knows it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif It's not the smartest move
in the world either to blow all your energy.
It's a desperation move no doubt.


Just because you can do it in this sim does not mean it can be done in R/L. Without some problem of recovering caused be disorientation or blackout. Unless it done at a very slow speed.

PBNA-Boosher
06-23-2005, 10:26 AM
If any of you went to the new Batman movie, I think there's a few quotes in there for you:

"You didn't win. You sacrificed sure footing for a kill."

"Always mind your surroundings."

Very good movie overall, and very fun, but its points relate to very many things.

horseback
06-23-2005, 10:36 AM
I've read of RL FW 190 drivers who had the stall-out in their bag of tricks. If your opponent is on your tail, and there's no other 'safe' option (i.e., a last resort situation), putting yourself in a stall at a reasonable altitude (one from which you could or even might recover) to force an overshoot (not a reversal) wasn't an entirely bad idea.

Rather than kill his own speed to finish you off (and therefore make himself vulnerable to that potential someone he didn't see), a RL opponent would blow on past, extend, and either find another victim, or come back to you to find you in a somewhat more favorable postion. Most likely, he wouldn't waste the fuel to come back, reasoning that you would be in such a poor energy state that you would be out of the fight (or at least in no position to pursue him), and that he had met his tactical goal for that mission.

In-game, if you have the (generally) same capabilities to to stall and recover, it isn't a cheat. It just means that your opponent has learned a move that you haven't yet.

cheers

horseback