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Bearcat99
10-25-2005, 05:48 PM
What do you think would have happened had Hitler actually conspired with Japan and Japan attacked Russia from the rear after Barbarosa, instead of Pearl Harbor and Hitler launching Barbarossa without even informing Japan, the other axis power.

Grey_Mouser67
10-25-2005, 06:05 PM
Russia might have fallen...especially since that would have likely changed the Pearl Harbor plans and perhaps the US doesn't enter the war...at least not for a long time.

History would have been rewritten

waffen-79
10-25-2005, 06:12 PM
I'm not a Historian, don't get me wrong but for me, THAT WAS THE LOGICAL, TACTICAL PLAN

THANK GOD Japan look for their own interest and didn't attack Russia.

I guess Japan refused to be Germany's Sidekick.

Op Barbarossa failed because russians kept bringing fresh soldiers from the east and moving the industries there

jds1978
10-25-2005, 06:22 PM
1. No Pearl Harbor...

That doesn't mean that the US would have stayed out of the war though. The research i've done suggest that a majority of Americans felt it was only a matter of time before we joined the allies. FDR was doing just about everything he could think of to provoke the little dictator in Berlin. By fall of 1941, the USN was pretty much in an undeclared shooting war w/ the Kriegsmarine. All eyes were on the Atlantic, which goes a long way towards explaining why we completly dropped the ball regarding the Japanese. FDR and the Navy felt the Pacific Fleet was a good enough deterent against any Japanese moves towards the Phillipines, NEI, and British Malaya. We were partly right. The Japanese did view our fleet as a impediment towards striking south. We just never believed, partly due to rascism and lack of technical info regarding the new IJN torpedoes, that they could pull off such an attack.

2. No big Soviet counter-attack in late winter 1941.

all those Siberian divisions would have had to stay put around Vladivostok, meaning that there would be no assault on HG Center in December-Febuary. The front probably would've settled down until the early summer of 1942. Maybe Case Blue would have been aimed at Moscow instead of the Caucasus.

3. The political alliance vis-a-vis the Western Allies and the USSR may have been different...or not

thats my best guess...after that the crystal ball quits working http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Daiichidoku
10-25-2005, 06:30 PM
this would necessarily mean that JP either finished its PAC rim and CBI conquests, and killed all 4 US carriers at pearl,
or
they never did any of those offencives

even then impossible for them to make any sort of real impact to russia, aside from distraction, nuisance, slight reduction of war materiel, and diversion of some of russians endless manpower(large numbers of eastern red army men were brought up from there, after it was clear JP was not a huge threat to mongol/siberia, AFAIK in 42), given the distances, enviroment and logistics invovled for the JP army

besides, JP had no interest in russia...they were not at war, and badly needed southern raw materials...oh, yea, and to unite the beleaguered asians of all those nations from western tyranny and exploit

jarink
10-25-2005, 06:57 PM
I don't think much would have happened.

The Japanese army was stretched fairly thin in China already. For them to drive into the USSR would have taken more troops than they had available. Alos, they would not have been able to make many deep gains into Soviet territory; the road and rail networks just would not have supported it.

In Europe, it would have meant many things, including the possible loss of Moscow. I doubt it would have meant the collapse of the Soviet Union, though. Stalin was already prepared to carry on the war even if his capital was taken. Remember, too, the German attack was slowed to a crawl well before those Siberian divisions were thrown into the battle.

The biggest difference, obviously, would have been the date the US officially entered the war. Since March of '41 the US Navy had been escorting convoys in the western Atlantic. We were giving the Brits huge amounts of material aid through Lend-Lease. Without Pearl as an reason, I think FDR would still have convinced Congress to declare war by fall of '42 at the latest.

It's interesting to theorize, but the fact is that part of Siberia did not have the resources (oil, rubber, tin, etc.) that the Japanese were desperate for. They had to go south to get those things. It would be more plausible to theorize what would have happened if the Japanese had delivered their war ultimatum on Dec 7th on time as they planned, not after the attack.

Slater_51st
10-25-2005, 07:18 PM
Now, I'm don't have the best resources here, but I think Bearcat does have an interesting point. Maybe not 100% plausible, but still, what ifs are kinda fun.

Unless I'm wrong, in the '30s, the US was very much so at odds with Russia. Really, WWII was only a pause in the United States' "war" with communism, caused because Germany and Japan were much more immediate threats to the US and the rest of the world. Had Hitler skipped over France and England, his war with Russia might have even been favorable in alot of American's eyes. Also interesting, reading "U.S. Battleships, and Illustrated History" by Norman Friedman, it's clear that there was alot of friction between the US and the UK durring the interwar years.

It's is doubtful that the US would have stayed out of the conflict however you look at it. The US might have simply seen it as Japanese aggression and launched their own pre-emptive strike fearing they would be next, or even just desiring to strike Japan as it was the most thinly stretched.

Whatever the case, and as misinformed as I certainly am, it happened the way it did. I'm thankful that Hitler was not as intelligent as some thought him, and that he royally buggered up his own plans. Otherwise, things would have been far worse, imho.

Looking at the outcome of WWII, the US emerged as the most powerful nation in the world(can you say A-Bomb), and stayed that way for the next few years. With the Russian's getting the bomb, the balance was pretty much equal. And, sure enough, immediately after WWII, the USSR and the USA were at odds, and remained there for the next 40 some years.

S! Slater

vocatx
10-25-2005, 08:20 PM
One thing that has been overlooked by most of the comments here is one of the main reasons FDR beat his opponent in the 1940 election: He promised the American public that our troops would not be sent overseas to fight in a foreign war. Had Britian fallen, public sentiment might possibly have changed, but the isolationist movement was very strong in the US at that time, as well as a growning facist movement.

Had Japan not attacked the American fleet at Pearl, and kept growing their armies in Mongolia, the USSR would have been forced to keep a much larger contingent on hand to guard it's southern approaches (ever heard of Khalkin Gol?).

No matter how you slice it, the "what ifs" to WWII are endless. There were some choices made by many different countries that probably at the time didn't seem to have major consiquences that did in the end. Many horrible things happened during and after the war, but, all things considered, I think we came out about as well as we could hope for.

Sad thing is (and here's another "what if" for you Bearcat), had the Allied powers not been as vengeful toward Germany after the First World War, many of the reasons for the Second World War, at least as far as Europe was concerned, would not have existed at all.

Xiolablu3
10-26-2005, 03:58 AM
USA wouldn't have joined the war until at least 1943, if at all. (they would however have kept supplying Britain)

Russia may have been defeated, but you have to remember that Russia is a VAST country. To occupy it all would take millions of men...

Russia has that many people it would have been like a spring, pushed in from both sides, with Japan and Germany extending their supply lines massively, and Russias geting shorter...It would push togther so far before it sprung (is that a word?) back out again. I would have to say that I still think Russia would have survived the onslaught from both sides.

Good question Bearcat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neural_dream
10-26-2005, 04:51 AM
The boardgame Axis & Allies is exactly that http://www.bggfiles.com/bggimages/pic43623.jpg . A testbed for whatif after 1942 scenarios. Having played a little bit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif, it appears that in that case the Americans would need to get their hands dirty. Supplying Britain would do nothing.

Capt.LoneRanger
10-26-2005, 05:06 AM
What do you think would have happened had Hitler actually conspired with Japan and Japan attacked Russia from the rear after Barbarosa, instead of Pearl Harbor and Hitler launching Barbarossa without even informing Japan, the other axis power.

Japan had defeated the Russian Navy allready in 1904, but concentrated on attacking it's old enemy China, then. It was planned to attack Russia, too and infact there are documents of minor skirmishes, but there never was a war declaration on Russia. Looking at that victory against the Sovjet Navy, Japan concentrated on building it's fleet, leaving little resources for the war in Indochina. While the JapaneseNavy at that time allready sunk several US-ships (in 1937 1 gunboat and 3 tankers were sunk in a single airraid), the US supported the fight against the Japanese Troops on the Asian mainland (inofficially, e.g. with the AVG). Joining war was just a matter of time.


Nevertheless, Hitlers plan could have never worked out, because he had none. Barbarossa itself was a major military mistake, though it was Hitlers top priority from the very beginning. The problem was, however, that Hitlers politics, his military machinery, economy and supplies all depended on attacking and winning. His generals knew, that without Russias supplies the war would end after 1942, just because of the lack of supplies. It was a policy of conquer and plunder.

Even if Moscow had fallen, the war wouldn't have stopped there. Partisans and ResistanceGroups would have tried to regain control and they'd never get enough soldiers in the vital areas to control them and protect the western part of Europe. It is even more plausible to think this win would have been a big loss, because Hitler planned 1937 to feed his complete army by Russian-Resources by 1942. That would have meant to let Millions of people die from starvation. There was no way this would have worked.
Japan probably would have concentrated on the eastern coast of Russia. Japan didn't have the tanks and possibilities for a large-scale land-based-war, so they probably wouldn't be able to penetrate deep into Russia, anyway.

As jarink said, it would be interesting to see what had happened if the war-declaration was delivered in time. It was also a matter of luck that made the difference between winning and loosing Midway. Even more interesting: What would have happened if Hitler wasn't as arrogant and had listened to Rommel and the Invasion-Force had faces his tank-divisions in the Normandy, not the reserve. Or what if the German sub had come through and delivered the plutonium for the German nuclear bomb? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
10-26-2005, 05:07 AM
ROFLOL!

I was about to suggest trying Axis&Allies, too!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WOLFMondo
10-26-2005, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
What do you think would have happened had Hitler actually conspired with Japan and Japan attacked Russia from the rear after Barbarosa, instead of Pearl Harbor and Hitler launching Barbarossa without even informing Japan, the other axis power.

Good hypothetical question. I think Russia would have still been able to put its factories out of reach of both Japan and German. The US may not have entered the war as well which really turns things on its head.

In aircombat, the early VVS planes are very similar to early Japanese planes in there manouverability. Not sure how the ki43 or Zero would have compared to the I16 or Lagg's and Yaks.

I think the British Commonwealth and the USSR would have had there hands full but North Africa might not have happened as the Germans might have concentrated more efforts supporting the Japanese. The Japanese fleet would have also been free to roam. Maybe we would have seen major engagements between the Royal Navy and the IJN rather than the USN and IJN.

I think the answer to it really depends on what the USA did. If it would have still done its lend lease to the USSR, it was already doing lend lease to the UK and commonwealth before it entered the war.

1.JaVA_Hornet
10-26-2005, 05:17 AM
Hello folks,

The germans were stopped by the bad weather so...i think the russian cold would stop
the japanese wave.

tigertalon
10-26-2005, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by jds1978:
The front probably would've settled down until the early summer of 1942.

Disagree on that. If Soviets would be engaged on the far East as well, Germans would advance even faster in early 1942 when temperatures became better.

Generally I don't see much sense in Japan invading Soviet Union. For a few thousand miles inland there is absolutely NOTHING in Soviet Union, with the exception of Vladivostok (which was expendable IMO in case Germans attacked from West). Soviets would simply destroy all railroads and roads connecting East and West of Soviet Union, and concentrate its forces on Germany. If Japan managed to come anywhere near Ural (to see first Soviet human being), they would have GIGANTIC logistical problem.

73GIAP_Milan
10-26-2005, 07:07 AM
I really think you don't want to know..

just be glad the war got ended in '45 and that things did not go different and/or in favor of the Axis Powers..

Be smart and accept it the way it is

mynameisroland
10-26-2005, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
What do you think would have happened had Hitler actually conspired with Japan and Japan attacked Russia from the rear after Barbarosa, instead of Pearl Harbor and Hitler launching Barbarossa without even informing Japan, the other axis power.

Good hypothetical question. I think Russia would have still been able to put its factories out of reach of both Japan and German. The US may not have entered the war as well which really turns things on its head.

In aircombat, the early VVS planes are very similar to early Japanese planes in there manouverability. Not sure how the ki43 or Zero would have compared to the I16 or Lagg's and Yaks.

I think the British Commonwealth and the USSR would have had there hands full but North Africa might not have happened as the Germans might have concentrated more efforts supporting the Japanese. The Japanese fleet would have also been free to roam. Maybe we would have seen major engagements between the Royal Navy and the IJN rather than the USN and IJN.

I think the answer to it really depends on what the USA did. If it would have still done its lend lease to the USSR, it was already doing lend lease to the UK and commonwealth before it entered the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets face it mate with the DM of the Yak and the Lagg's the Japanese would stand no chance.

Daiichidoku
10-26-2005, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
In aircombat, the early VVS planes are very similar to early Japanese planes in there manouverability. Not sure how the ki43 or Zero would have compared to the I16 or Lagg's and Yaks.

IMO the JP type were far more manuverable

the difference in each AF's training, experience, discipline and organization would be telling for the JP side though, IMO...not to mention that criteria known as range, the advantages of which were clearly demonstrated to US in 41-43



yes, everything would ultimately rest with just what the USA would (or even could) do

Daiichidoku
10-26-2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
I really think you don't want to know..

just be glad the war got ended in '45 and that things did not go different and/or in favor of the Axis Powers..

Be smart and accept it the way it is



mind you, if it did, there would be someone just like you, writing in a forum for a game made by "otto matoschs" (hehe Yak cockpit bars whines and La7 fuel tank bugs) saying
:

"I really think you don't want to know..

just be glad the war got ended in '45 and that things did not go different and/or in favor of the Allied Powers..

Be smart and accept it the way it is...HEIL!"



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

p1ngu666
10-26-2005, 06:53 PM
a better what if

the germans fortify the eastern frontier with russia, main effort goes into pushing into africa and the middle east, secureing oilfields, even if the allies destroyed them in retreat, means the allies cant use them anyway. japan pushes thru china,burma and india to link up with the germans.

mainland asia, some of the middle east under japanease control, germans have north africa (the rest tobe taken at leasure really)
the italians would be mixed in with the german forces.

LEXX_Luthor
10-26-2005, 07:18 PM
Hitler was hoping Japan would attack the Soviet Union along with Germany, but he was sorely dissapointed.

BaldieJr
10-26-2005, 10:03 PM
Russia would have suffered at first, but the end result (for Russia) would have remained. Germany and Japan would have got thier butts handed to them.

The post-war would would have been very different. Communism would have died by the 60's as Russia collapsed under its own political weight.