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View Full Version : To all Bf109 fans!



XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 09:40 PM
Need to know when u fly it!
All 109's, regardless of version, share numerous traits. =20
Excellent climb rate
Good rudder response
Excellent high altitude performance
Above average low speed handling
Good negative-G handling=20
Below Average visibility from the cockpit
Not particularly "new pilot friendly"
Moderate to low ammunition supply
Mediocre ground attack capability=20
Poor Bomber Interceptor
Mediocre durability

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 09:40 PM
Need to know when u fly it!
All 109's, regardless of version, share numerous traits. =20
Excellent climb rate
Good rudder response
Excellent high altitude performance
Above average low speed handling
Good negative-G handling=20
Below Average visibility from the cockpit
Not particularly "new pilot friendly"
Moderate to low ammunition supply
Mediocre ground attack capability=20
Poor Bomber Interceptor
Mediocre durability

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 10:44 PM
Do you mean the traits the real 109's have or the ones the FB's 109's should have? because their are certainly some missing from FB 109's.

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 11:03 PM
yes it should hvae, and yes there are some misses with the bf

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 05:22 PM
I agree.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 06:32 PM
Nice quote @ BigganD, from The BF-109 - "The Secret Instructions for JG54"

( http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/109instructions.html )

Regards, Sven

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:00 AM
Lets now look at the La7's characteristics in compareson to the K4

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/la7.html

now lets look at the speed differences

La7 420mph
K4 450mph

hmmm... just food for thought.
note both these takin from same web page.... but I don't know anything about if this is true or not... and this is a web page, but if someone could confirm, that would be nice.

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 08:18 AM
Just wanting to know what was generally faster, the 109 K4 or the La7.

so *Poke*

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 09:45 AM
Be nice to know at which altitude the K4 should start to outperform la7 as ingame the la just seems to keep with the K4 at all altitudes

Message Edited on 09/14/0302:29PM by johno__UK

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 08:01 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 10:03 PM
johno__UK wrote:
- Be nice to know at which altitude the K4 should
- start to outperform la7 as ingame the la just seems
- to keep with the K4 at all altitudes
-
- Message Edited on 09/14/03 02:29PM by johno__UK

Fight him at 6000 to 7000 meters, keep fighting up and down, never drop below 5000 and don't ever get that low without enough speed to get back above 6000. Run at 100%, don't use boost or you'll overheat, and keep your rads shut for max performance.

At 100% clean above 6000 you have all the manouver and accelleration advantage. Climb, and keep turning back into him doing slash attacks. Keep it fast and loose, don't try for too much all at once. Spiral climbs start working above 6000.

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 11:22 PM
spiral climbs work above 6000m? That doesn't sound right if you have to get that high to out spiral climb an la7. I think you can do it lower.

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 03:55 PM
Quote : "Excellent high altitude performance"

LOL....

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 04:43 PM
Sauhatz wrote:
- Nice quote @ BigganD, from The BF-109 - "The Secret
- Instructions for JG54"
-
- ( <a
- href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/10
- 9instructions.html"
- target=_blank>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletch
- er183/109instructions.html</a> )
-
- Regards, Sven
-
-Very nice article.
it reminds me too of how the 109K in EAW would "snake around" that was a neat feeling.



http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 06:27 PM
BfHeFwMe wrote:

- Fight him at 6000 to 7000 meters, keep fighting up
- and down, never drop below 5000 and don't ever get
- that low without enough speed to get back above
- 6000. Run at 100%, don't use boost or you'll
- overheat, and keep your rads shut for max
- performance.
-
- At 100% clean above 6000 you have all the manouver
- and accelleration advantage. Climb, and keep
- turning back into him doing slash attacks. Keep it
- fast and loose, don't try for too much all at once.
- Spiral climbs start working above 6000.


I guess this description of the la7 in the object viewer is a bit out then:

Absolute combat superiority over most of the latest piston-engined German, English and American fighters at low and medium altitude.

Maybe at low but not medium, just my opinion....

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 07:40 PM
Medium is usually classified as under 20,000ft/6000m.

http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 10:20 PM
S!
we did climb tests in II/JG54 between LA7 and K4, both 50 % fuel, taking off from ground side by side. Rads closed, full 110% MW50 boost, climb with around 270 km/h, prop pitch auto. Up to 2000 m the LA was leading by around 200-400 m, after 2000 m the k4 was gaining rapidly and usually the first to arrive at 2500, then leaving the La7 slowly but steadily behind, at 5000 the K4 was leading with about 600 m height.
Using proppitch manual on the K4 (going from 90 to 75, you need to go down with prop pitch at certain altitudes, usually the higher you get (air thinner ??) the lower the prop pitch. the K4 gained with about 1000 m.

BUT: like this K4 is overheating already at around 2000m, even gaining this Energy (height) advantage its difficult to fight the LA7 because if you attack her you will easily loose your e advantage with a few moves while the La7 (as many russian planes in 1.11) basically keeps her energy forever (due to 22.century slipstream technology paint and aerodynamics made by gods http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) on the La).

II/JG54_Zent

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:12 AM
S!
Anyway a amazing plane, furious fighter!

-------------------------------------
Luftwaffe Brasil
Força e Honra!

LBR=Hartmann in HL

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:10 AM
Bump -

is this all people have to say ? or is it because Ubi forums are so slow for two days now ?

II/JG54_Zent

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:11 AM
g2 works well on the L7 ,i enjoy seing them RUN LOL

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:47 AM
ya

http://www.concentric.net/~Twist/airwar/me109/me109.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:55 AM
I found about 10 errors in that description

As for the speed.... Even if tocount it right in MPH, then you also should compare the maximal speeds on different altitudes. and you'll seee when K4 has great enough problems against La-7.



EyesBlack wrote:
- Lets now look at the La7's characteristics in
- compareson to the K4
-
- <a
- href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/la
- 7.html"
- target=_blank>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletch
- er183/la7.html</a>
-
-
- now lets look at the speed differences
-
- La7 420mph
- K4 450mph
-
- hmmm... just food for thought.
- note both these takin from same web page.... but I
- don't know anything about if this is true or not...
- and this is a web page, but if someone could
- confirm, that would be nice.
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:01 AM
With this text info I will even more smile than over La-7 text....

Regarding K4, just one this line "the 109K had a powerful Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine which could be boosted to over 2000hp with nitrous oxide injection" killed me!

K-4 never had NO2 injection! Please read view object for K-4 in FB... There is much more correct info for this plane. And please DB-65DCM and other D variants that was installed on this plane had build in MW-50 device that injected Water+Metanol mix, but not nitrous oxide (NO2)!

No time to show the other non-competent places of these texts...


Sauhatz wrote:
- Nice quote @ BigganD, from The BF-109 - "The Secret
- Instructions for JG54"
-
- ( <a
- href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/10
- 9instructions.html"
- target=_blank>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletch
- er183/109instructions.html</a> )
-
- Regards, Sven
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:39 PM
Yup Oleg, sure is full of errors./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Someone should tell him to fix the errors, soon.


Oleg_Maddox wrote:

-
- No time to show the other non-competent places of
- these texts...
-
-

http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:03 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- With this text info I will even more smile than over
- La-7 text....
-
- Regarding K4, just one this line "the 109K had a
- powerful Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine which could be
- boosted to over 2000hp with nitrous oxide injection"
- killed me!
-
- K-4 never had NO2 injection! Please read view
- object for K-4 in FB... There is much more correct
- info for this plane. And please DB-65DCM and other D
- variants that was installed on this plane had build
- in MW-50 device that injected Water+Metanol mix, but
- not nitrous oxide (NO2)!

What about "new two stage mechanical supercharger" on K-4, (c) by Object Viewer, hmmm? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Otherwise, La-7 vs, K-4 :

Speed, 605DC engine:

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Tempest%20vs%20La7%20K4%20D9%20SPEED.jpg



Climb:

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/TempV-LA7-K4-D9CLIMB.jpg


http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:20 PM
Copy that Isegrim!!

I have 3 different reference places that shows the 109 K-4 DB 605DCM has the same speed and climb rates that you have here.

~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:36 PM
Dear Oleg,

you are completely right to point out blatant errors in the texts and ideas criticising or doubting your 1.11 modelling of the BF 109s.
But that someone has a wrong argument does not mean all arguments of other people are invalid. You have a tendency to make people crticising you look stupid, your sentence "You is wrong" has become quite famous, but dont you understand that it is really hard to swallow how extremely weak the 109s are all of a sudden ?
On most open DF servers without plane limit noone or near noone is flying 109s rigth now. I think G2 and F4 are ok so far and they are used in timelimited servers, but all the later modells are simply not any more competitional. Especially the G14 is so weak and the K4 feels totally castrated compared to 1.0. Could you explain to us why you have changed it so much or which new data makes you think it should be as it is now ? It is very hard to believe those drastic changes some planes undergo, especially when at the same time its main counterpart (the La7) gets such a performance boost.
Even if the K4 should be modelled historically correct and it was really such a lousy plane as its now in FB i cant believe the absolute superiority of the LA7 now. Even without comparing numbers i can tell you that i simply dont believe that russian planes were not bleeding energy at all (compared to K4 and other 109s, FWs). Even if the areodynamics of a LA7 (and Lagg3, La5, Yaks, p39 etc. etc.) was so superior to 109 as you modell its hard to believe how well those machines turn and turn and glide without loss while a 109 has lost all energy after two loops, the difference is just too extreme. Some planes (as forinstance Lagg3) keep onlooping for some time with throttle zero, with throttle up they seem to almost gain energy even in highly loaded turns and loops.....come on Oleg, that cant seriously be your last word on the FM, it is not good now, patch 1.11 simply is not credible, not fair and according to the data of Isegrim and others not historical either. You cant dismiss all of that just because of some foolish arguments.

Top speed, climb, handling, all tuned down, better guns in patch 1.1b then worse again in 1.11, all 109s suddenly prone to loss of control/steering by even the smallest hits from six, very big overheating problems, on the other hand invincible fast and superclimbings Las with even better weapons as before...handling like a dream....almost no e bleed....well,i am sure you made some people happy with that patch....and others feel betrayed...
You say just use rigth tactic ? Learn to fly ? Give me a LA7 and same start conditions and i will mostly shoot down all 109s easily...I am ready to proof it on any one on one fights in HL or on UBI. The only problem i could possibly have is overshooting, its damn hard to brake with those LAs....they keep on speeding...

Yours,
Leutnant
II/JG54_Zent

Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- With this text info I will even more smile than over
- La-7 text....
-
- Regarding K4, just one this line "the 109K had a
- powerful Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine which could be
- boosted to over 2000hp with nitrous oxide injection"
- killed me!
-
- K-4 never had NO2 injection! Please read view
- object for K-4 in FB... There is much more correct
- info for this plane. And please DB-65DCM and other D
- variants that was installed on this plane had build
- in MW-50 device that injected Water+Metanol mix, but
- not nitrous oxide (NO2)!
-
- No time to show the other non-competent places of
- these texts...
-
-
- Sauhatz wrote:
-- Nice quote @ BigganD, from The BF-109 - "The Secret
-- Instructions for JG54"
--
-- ( <a
-- href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/10
-- 9instructions.html"
-- target=_blank>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletch
-- er183/109instructions.html</a> )
--
-- Regards, Sven
--
--
-
-
-
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games
-

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 05:37 AM
i seldom play this game after 1.11 released because these crappy 109.i dont think i am going to buy its add on.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:28 AM
Excellant post Zentaurus!

To all... I always thought that the true essence and spirt of the game was competition between computer simulated pilots without using any exploits or FM under/over of any kind.

That (A) player could use the good in the aircraft of choice and (B) player could use the bad points of player (A)`s aircraft against him.

Which to my knowledge is what happened in WW2, you new the other guys plane as good as you new your own.

And we didn`t have to worry about the FM changing 1 way or the other to far. Well it changed pretty far this time.

I guess everyone just want to be able to fly the best aircraft over all (normally over modeled to some extent) so they can say "hey I`m and ace and can shoot down everyone online".

So the he11 with historic accuracy everyone fly La.7, Yak3, 39`s etc and we have nothing better then Quake in Airspace.

When I went up against someone in FB 1.0 in my 109 G6/AS or K-4 and they were in a Yak3 La, 39 or even a Hurrican or 109 etc. And we went against each other 10 time in a row! It was normally even in the end and was always a good fight. Thats good gaming and great competition.

I don`t think we have it now so much unless you look at it like "Hmmmmmm bogey 12 oclock! Hmmm 109! aahh no prob he`s got to be overheating by now! Or if in La`7-- AHH 109 on my 6 hey n/p if you get hit it won`t do anything and you can do a 360 in 15 seconds and then pass his a@@ just for fun anyway don`t worry!

So to all that want Quake in Airspace then this is the game, or we can get the FM`s fixed and go back to some real competition. As alot of ppl like to say up here it`s the man not the machine!

So to the "5% OF SALES" for players online! And to the what looks like 1% of those that want historic accuracy for good competition!

I ~~S~~ You!

Note: And I did give info and data and have flown real aircraft including Warbirds, acro and taught CAM and fly for the airlines. And I`d like to know how you get manifold pressure of 45 to 50 inches at idle in a P-47 or get a 0.92 to 1.26 ata rise when turning on MW50 in a 109 at idle with both aircraft sitting on the gound with engine running!!!
Or how you change FM`s 5 times in 2 games and say they are ALL have the right data?


Thats a new 1 to me and about 50 other pilots that I`ve flown with in real life!


~S~ Everyone good luck!

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:11 AM
THE G10 FEELS REAL BAD AND SLOW ,sad its said to be one of the best 109,s i do like the older 109,s the new ones SUX, SAD ,and i love the 109,s but i cant say its not right never taking up a real one, my trust is in you OLEG

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:34 AM
Ok, so judging by your data there Isegrim... CLEARLY the K-4 should outclimb the LA-7 above 2km correct? Well, as it happens, as MANY of us that fly online or otherwise know... the K-4 DOESN'T outclimb the LA-7 at sustained climbs untill roughly 2.5k or 3k (3000m from my experience)... Clearly the K-4 model could use a bit of tuning... and i'm sure Oleg is going to have a good enough retort to make him feel confident that there's nothing wrong... but the fact is... the K-4 should be Faster... and climb better than the La-7 above 2k... and it simply isn't (go ahead, try a level flight w/ an LA vs a K-4 at 2k)



Vo101_Isegrim wrote:

- What about "new two stage mechanical supercharger"
- on K-4, (c) by Object Viewer, hmmm? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Otherwise, La-7 vs, K-4 :
-
- Speed, 605DC engine:
-
<img
- src="http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Tempest%
- 20vs%20La7%20K4%20D9%20SPEED.jpg">
-
-
-
- Climb:
-
<img
- src="http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/TempV-LA
- 7-K4-D9CLIMB.jpg">
-
-
-
- <img
- src="http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb
- .jpg">
- 'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'
-
- Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
- (Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto
- of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)
-
- Flight tests and other aviation performance data:
- http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:26 PM
*borked*

<a>http://www.talonsoft.com/images/hiddenanddangerous/hiddenanddangerous-eyes.jpg</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:47 AM
Oleg,

Are you also smiling about the 16 sec turn rate in the La-7? Or the overly quick turn rates in the La-5, La-5F, and the La-5FN...your object viewer lists them as turning more slowly...books report worse results as well.

Are you smiling about the lack of overheat in the LaGG '41 with radiator closed or the lack of overheat in the La-5 with radiator closed. Are you smiling about a '42 La-5 that performs as a '43 La-5F with perhaps less tendency to overheat than the La-5F?

Why can't the 109's make their listed speeds even briefly with auto engine management? (Hint it is the overheat modeling.) Why can the LaGG '41 exceed it?

The historical balance has been turned on its ear by this patch. I don't see much to smile about.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:20 AM
Personally I think we are fighting a loosing battle but I`m staying in it.

With the hope that the (MAN) will jump on it and show use what he has!

~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:26 AM
Chill, the more I look at it closely, the more I see chaos. It's still a great game, but they tried to bite off more than they can be chewed. Give em some credit for trying. Don't think anything is deliberate, came a point where they had to throw it out to the public, There's just too damn much to ever get all fixed or balanced. Half the planes still don't have all the essential indicators working or working correctly, probably never will.

They have a habit of cramming in too much new stuff over fixing whats there already, if it's even possible. And it is the new stuff that sells. If you like 109's that much, go back to 1 or 1b and be king again, the sim you want already exists./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:50 AM
I`m not trying to jump down the producers throat and tell him he has it ~ALL~ wrong!

I`m just asking for some balance. If X producer of X says X and thats the law! Then others show data thats not law and we never here anything except (you is wrong) come on really thats not right.

And no one can run FB ver. 1.0 on ubi at all. If it were possible I would have been running it the day after 1.1b.

In old il2 right now you can run 1.1, 1.2, 1.2ov.

I`m asking UBI to give us the choice to run the ver. the players would like, and that would end all the fighting.

If the producer is happy with the way it is and says that the data used is right then COOL no problem, but let the buyers pick the version they would like to play, open the versions up on ubi so we can run FB 1.0 then it endes the fight.


~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 09:15 AM
Just run test08, or 1.1b if you can live without K4. 1.11 is porked.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

Message Edited on 09/19/0308:15AM by Werre_