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Jagdklinger
12-23-2004, 12:57 AM
I have a question in two parts, regarding the relative merits of Germany's two main fighters

A. Historical: How did they match up performance-wise? The Bf109 seems to compare well, statistically, for a much older design. (I'm purely interested in air-to-air capability)
How did the various marks compare? I know most aces flew 109s; but did/would they switch if given the chance?

B. IL2: How do they compare in the game? What about online? Is one clearly superior? (I know it is unrealistic to match them up in a dogfight, but how would it pan out - has anyone done it?) I'm too much of a novice to handle the Fw190s phenomenal roll rate (although I can see how deadly it would be in expert hends).
In my amatuerish hands, the 190 seems to be significantly more vicious stall-wise than the 109, a little less maneouvrable and isn't as good a climber - relatively serious deficiencies for a newer design.

Hoping someone with some experience fill me in a bit here on their relative flight characteristics, tips and tactics to use for both.

Thanks!

EDIT: With a 190 I use shallow dives and climbs, keeping the airspeed up - is this good practice? it almost seems like flying a P38-style zoom and run fighter, only with a weak climb rate...

Jagdklinger
12-23-2004, 12:57 AM
I have a question in two parts, regarding the relative merits of Germany's two main fighters

A. Historical: How did they match up performance-wise? The Bf109 seems to compare well, statistically, for a much older design. (I'm purely interested in air-to-air capability)
How did the various marks compare? I know most aces flew 109s; but did/would they switch if given the chance?

B. IL2: How do they compare in the game? What about online? Is one clearly superior? (I know it is unrealistic to match them up in a dogfight, but how would it pan out - has anyone done it?) I'm too much of a novice to handle the Fw190s phenomenal roll rate (although I can see how deadly it would be in expert hends).
In my amatuerish hands, the 190 seems to be significantly more vicious stall-wise than the 109, a little less maneouvrable and isn't as good a climber - relatively serious deficiencies for a newer design.

Hoping someone with some experience fill me in a bit here on their relative flight characteristics, tips and tactics to use for both.

Thanks!

EDIT: With a 190 I use shallow dives and climbs, keeping the airspeed up - is this good practice? it almost seems like flying a P38-style zoom and run fighter, only with a weak climb rate...

HansKnappstick
12-23-2004, 01:22 AM
As I kick the virtual bucket all the time regardless what I fly, I prefer flying FW190, since it looks way better.

Xnomad
12-23-2004, 01:32 AM
The Fw 190's best attributes are speed, fire power and roll rate, it is also very responsive to controls at high speeds so pulling out of an attacking dive behind your opponent is just beautiful compared to the solid elevator controls of a Bf 109. It should also be more immune to damage but I tend to find the plane gets sloppy after one hit to a wing.

The Bf 109 has an ace up it's sleeve for almost every type of encounter. If the enemy is faster then usually the 109 can turn better and if the enemy can turn better then the Bf 109 can fly faster, climb faster or dive to higher speeds.

I find that the Fw 190 just suffers in late war encounters if you are caught with an enemy behind you all you can do is run, if your enemy is fast then you are toast.

When I fly a P-38 I love getting into a mess with a Fw 190!

There are guys on these boards who say they are very good at flying the Fw 190 online, I have never seen someone pull off amazing fights online, sure they can score big as the Fw 190 is a hard hitter and if you just dive from high altitude down onto half asleep opponents then it's easy to notch up huge scores. The Fw 190 is difficult to fight with when your opponent is aware of you, and takes evasive action, this is due to the terrible forward view and the difficulty of keeping the plane still due to it's responsiveness.

I've seen very impressive La, P-51, Bf 109, P-38, P-39, Yak, LaGG pilots etc. but I've yet to see a Fw 190 pilot that makes you go "wow"

If you are a guy who can do wonderful things with a Fw 190 online then post a track.

Friendly_flyer
12-23-2004, 01:35 AM
This is not my personal field of expertise, but the comparison goes roughly as this:

The older Me-109 was rather nimble (for a German design), but did not stand up all that well to damage and abuse. The armament, at least in some models, was a bit weak. It was also lighter than the later FW-190, and this made it a favourite of the dogfighters.

The newer FW-190 was tough, hard hitting and stood up well to rough field use and damage. Also, with its broad undercarriage, it was easier to handle on rough airstrips, though it's not strictly a matter of air-to-air capability. Armament was good. On the downside, it was heavy and a bit "stiff" on the controls, and it took an experienced pilot to get the best out of the design.

All in all they where bout very good designs, but they had somewhat different fields in which they really shone. This was partly the reason the Me-109 saw further development despite the advent of the FW-190. In a way the two can be seen as a €œfighter€ and €œinterceptor€ respectively. One of the German aces once compared them to €œa foil and a sabre€, one quick and nimble, the other crude but effective.

jurinko
12-23-2004, 02:46 AM
Fw is degraded to hit-and-run plane in FB, but can do it quite well, especially against slower enemies and in pairs. 109 can do beautiful acrobatics in vertical and is good in medium speed range.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-23-2004, 03:45 AM
both are nice.
as soon as P51's or SpitIX appear the FW-A is heavily outclassed (in game), the 109 can hold it's own.

i Fly the Fw190A

Friendly_flyer
12-23-2004, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
as soon as P51's or SpitIX appear the FW-A is heavily outclassed (in game), the 109 can hold it's own.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... but sitting in any form of Allied bomber, any FW-190 will be a most unwelcome sight! More so than the 109.

tigertalon
12-23-2004, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
One of the German aces once compared them to €œa foil and a sabre€, one quick and nimble, the other crude but effective. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guenther Rall (275 victories)

Remember Walther Novotny? He was leading a flock of Bf109 in a butcherbird... So whenever allied pilot's saw a lone Fw190 and a bushel of 109s behind, they knew it is gonna be a nasty fight.

S.taibanzai
12-23-2004, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I have a question in two parts, regarding the relative merits of Germany's two main fighters

A. Historical: How did they match up performance-wise? The Bf109 seems to compare well, statistically, for a much older design. (I'm purely interested in air-to-air capability)
How did the various marks compare? I know most aces flew 109s; but did/would they switch if given the chance?

B. IL2: How do they compare in the game? What about online? Is one clearly superior? (I know it is unrealistic to match them up in a dogfight, but how would it pan out - has anyone done it?) I'm too much of a novice to handle the Fw190s phenomenal roll rate (although I can see how deadly it would be in expert hends).
In my amatuerish hands, the 190 seems to be significantly more vicious stall-wise than the 109, a little less maneouvrable and isn't as good a climber - relatively serious deficiencies for a newer design.

Hoping someone with some experience fill me in a bit here on their relative flight characteristics, tips and tactics to use for both.

Thanks!

EDIT: With a 190 I use shallow dives and climbs, keeping the airspeed up - is this good practice? it almost seems like flying a P38-style zoom and run fighter, only with a weak climb rate... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

109'sand 190's and a little less maneouvrable and isn't as good a climber - relatively serious

in real live where good climbers believe me !!

MEGILE
12-23-2004, 06:23 AM
The FW-190 is good enough for hit and run attacks, but when it is at co-alt with a SpitIXe for example, aslong as the Spitfire pilot knows what he is doing, the FW-190 is going to have to dive and disengage.

The BF-109 on the other hand is an excellent dogfighter, and will meet any plane toe-to-toe. Its excellent climb rate, decent turn rate make it able to turn and burn to a degree, and its firepower is more than sufficient for a 1 pass kill.

Jagdklinger
12-23-2004, 06:30 AM
So for the IL2 side of things: Fw190 - the loser - seems to be the consensus?

So generally, the 190 isn't as good air-to-air, except at high speeds and diving - and if you're diving at speed in a boom-and-zoom attack, you're probably gonna win no matter what your plane?

The firepower doesn't seem to be a big issue - the 109 seems to have adequate firepower, and the 190s twitchy roll rate = less accuracy anyway(or so it seems to me...)????

Hmmm, I was expecting more support in favour of 190s (at least they LOOK great...)

carguy_
12-23-2004, 06:53 AM
The game promotes T&B(meant to be a VVS only nuff said) hence Me109 excels at 1v1 encounters.Me109 can win with any WWII prop plane whereas if FW190 meets his enemy at same speed/alt/fuel conditions it doesn`t have much chance but to runaway,gain alt and attack at high speed.

I`ve seen many great FW190 pilots but none of them scored their kills when at a energy disadvantage.

If I were a great shot I`d certainly pick FW190 cuz in every single fight I have an opportunity to land few rounds on the bogie but I fail most of the time.In FW190 you get a chance,you must make your rounds effective cuz there won`t be much more chances if any.

In Me109 I can make up 4 or 5 fire solutions which is enought for me to bring down a fighter.

JG54_Arnie
12-23-2004, 07:02 AM
lets see. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

plusses (this is ingame btw):

109:
-climb
-turns nicely

190:
-fast
-lots of guns
-very manouvreable at high speed
-can take some damage

Minusses:
109:
-not manouvreable at high speed
-weak
-not as fast as the FW

190:
-climbs like a dog sometimes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In game I would take a 190 over a 109 every single time except for 1v1 engagements, the 109 is great when you can allow yourself to go down low and get dirty. Its fun to turn and stallfight with. But the 190 has the speed, can take some damage (except for the weird fuelburn thing and sometimes having a wing damaged which cripples it a lot but its already better than with the 109) once you get it up to altitude. Although the 190 can also work great in a furball down low when you have a few mates around to clear eachothers six while keeping the speed high.

FatBoyHK
12-23-2004, 07:37 AM
At a Mustang flyer, I can give you the assessment from the opposite camp.

In co-alt co-e situation, I would never engage a 109.... Even I am in his six, I will only hit and run immediately. 109 will always win against a Mustang in a close-quarter dogfight. However, Mustang is a lot faster, so Hit&Run is the best tactics with lower risk. Even if he try to follow me, 109's high speed handling is much worse than a Mustang, so I can tow him into 400 MPH speed range and pull up sharply (but not too fast to break my wing). He won't be able to pull as fast as me and I can buy time to shake him off my tail.

Against a 190 in the co-alt co-e situation, I will be aggressive and try to fight with it flat-out. Indeed it is a close match between a Mustang and a late war FW190A/D model, but if I am patient enough and play smart I can win the fight without big trouble. Mustang is a little bit faster, turn a litle bit faster, and climb a bit better, so I can decide the best way to fight with him, depending on the situation. In some case I will intentionally let a lone 190 chasing on my six. I will tow it to a quiet corner of the map, and then, once I am confortable with the situtation (i.e. no plane nearby) I will start fighting with it, in a downward turnfight. In this way I can keep my speed high. Around 250 MPH Mustang is a very good turner, and if I don't screw up I can catch him within 5 turns.

Hit&Run against 190 is ok, but the risk is that 190 has an advantage at the early stage of the dive. If I am not careful with the relative speed between us, 190 may be able to catch me when I try to dive away.

Regarding durability, one good snapshot is basically what I need to send a 109 home. There will not be any instant firework, but he will be so sick that there is no more fun for him to fight on. Against 190 it will be a much harder, I will need a sustained shot to have a chance to cripple it, and IIRC I am yet to light up a 190 online.

But interesting enough, most blue expertens fly 190 as their main ride. I don't know exactly the reason behind it, if I need to guess I will say 190 is a better BnZer and expertens love BnZ.

DangerForward
12-23-2004, 08:02 AM
I'd say if you're after kills the 109 is better, but if you're trying to fight and make it back the 190 is much better. When I fly the 109 I almost always bite off more than I can chew. Since the 190 can do less moves I find that making decisions in the 190 is easier and I get into less trouble. In a way it's kinda similar to the P51/Spitfire versus P47/P38 situation on the allies side.

FatBoyHK
12-23-2004, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In a way it's kinda similar to the P51/Spitfire versus P47/P38 situation on the allies side. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not to hijack this thread, but I would put P-51 on the other side of the comparison.... It is a BnZ fighter, just like a P-47.... Don't try to turnfight in it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Jagdklinger
12-24-2004, 05:21 AM
@ Fatboy - thanks for your 'alternate POV'

Your enemies are often the best judges of ability or lack thereof...

OldMan____
12-24-2004, 06:33 AM
I prefer 190 over any 109. Why? The feeling of piloting is much better.


If you put in your mind.. NO CIRCLE FIGHTING... you can do ok wiht 190.

When I face a spitfire I just need to not be too greedy.. and use my superior speed to keep away.

Mustang does not have ANY large advantage over the 190. I can turn with him fast and I am as fast as he is (sometimes faster when is a Dora or A9). So I just force a head on.. No sane p51 pilot would head on an Anton.

I also hate the brik elevator from 109.

I usually can keep alive much longer in a 190... but will score faster in a 109.


Some fake legends about online FW190. It DOES sclimb very well.. at a certain speed. Keep at 420 kph climbing as much as you can without going slower. I already tested.. NO plane (jets not counted) can keep up with a FW190... the one that can keep closer is the p38. If you start this maneuver with 500 meters advantage.. you can get another 500 meters in little more than 1k meters climb.

If the bandid just try maximum climb.. continue like that.. you will get plenety horizontal separation. I already scaped from many allied planes this way. Obviously.. do it facing your home base http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also turning.. forget flat turning. Make late diving roll turning or vectorl roll turning and you can cut the path af almost any opponent. But do not KEEP on this..try it once..twice at most then start building up energy advantage again.

Also at 550 kph it can turn so well that only a mustang will be able to folow you. Use that.. you both will black out but just before blackout you apply combat flaps... You will recover just above him (with some luck).

So you just need to be pacient.

Fish6891
12-24-2004, 07:25 AM
Psshh...fly the 190, learn the 190, and you will see why the following quote is true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
But interesting enough, most blue expertens fly 190 as their main ride. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get a feel for this bird and you will never go back to the 109. Contrary to what most ppl think, 190s are not all about BnZ, they are truly remarkable and flexible aircraft with a variety of options under different situations.

The Fw-190D9 in my opinion has flight characteristics that make it competetive with any allied aircraft regardless of situation, E-Advantage, Co-E, or E-disadvantage. Yes, this even goes for the Spitfire, sure it'll be a nasty fight, 1v1(not that Co-E 1v1s happen in DF servers very much), spit IXHF, Co-E, but if flown how it should be flown, and flown well, the Dora pilot should enjoy a great fight as long as the spit pilot is any good. I say this from experience, and there are many other dedicated Focke-Wulf pilots who will tell you the same. The only thing that is NOT an option EVER for ANY Focke-Wulf is committing to a sustained turn fight.

At above 7000m altitude though, the Dora's relative performance drops. You can still fly it up there but options become more limited if met with other high altitude opposition and so I would recommend taking a wingman or two if you're taking a Dora up high. The Ta-152H1 is a much better choice though if you plan to mix it up at those high altitudes.

The Fw-190A's are really great aircraft as well. My favorite A is the A9. Honestly the Antons are much better at working in pairs or in bigger groups than they are at lone-wolfing. Don't take that the wrong way though, even flying solo with an allied aircraft hot on your six, you've got some effective aces you could pull, and you can completely turn the fight around.

One of the best things about the 190s is that unless you make really big mistakes, get caught by complete surprise, or are a 190noob http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, it is really great for getting out of any situation alive, the D9 is my opinion is the best when it comes to surviveability.

I don't feel like getting into details but here, I'll provide a link to a thread that I started when I had just started to fly this sim. The thread is FULL of information from some really great pilots, and you should be able to find an answer to most questions about the 190 in that thread. http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=9661024732

The 190 is a tough aircraft to learn, in my opinion the toughest, everyone has some trouble with it when they first start out, and most ppl aren't very good with it. This is why often you'll find some allied flyers(I said SOME, dont jump all over me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) saying that they have an easy time against 190s, and calling 190s "flying targets". Pay them no heed though, the 190 is an incredibley competetive aricraft, you can be sure of that.

If you're really into the 190, take it up and learn it Jagd, you wont regret it. Like I said, she's a toughie, most ppl just end up giving up on her. The 190 is really difficult to learn, but once learnt flying it becomes an art, and it is well worth it.

If you fly online a good place to fly would be Warclouds WF. It is an AWESOME dogfight server, its almost always populated and lots of really great pilots are regulars there. Its a really tough server, especially for newcomers, but a good place to sharpen your skills. If you do end up flyin in Warclouds be sure to log on to the Warclouds teamspeak server so you can do some voice-communication. You'll often find myself in there along with some really great pilots like Zen, all of the JV44 guys, Mad Moses, Gunslinger now and then, and many more.

Hope to cya flyin blue http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
Fish

robban75
12-24-2004, 09:28 AM
Here are some climb comparisons made at 380km/h(205mph). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Crimea map, full fuel for all except for the P-51/47 which uses 50%.

Type - F4U1 -- A6 --- D9 --- La7 -- VIII --- P51 -- P47

1000 - 1:00 -- :55 --- :48 -- :40 -- :54 --- :55 -- :51
2000 - 2:14 - 1:49 - 1:42 - 1:24 - 1:46 - 1:45 - 1:41
3000 - 3:22 - 2:46 - 2:45 - 2:17 - 2:37 - 2:33 - 2:32
4000 - 4:26 - 3:48 - 3:32 - 3:13 - 3:28 - 3:22 - 3:22
5000 - 5:25 - 4:49 - 4:20 - 4:04 - 4:28 - 4:22 - 4:13

Climbrate at altitude

M/sec, in order as above.

1000 - 16.7 - 18.2 - 20.8 - 25.0 - 18.5 - 18.2 - 19.6
2000 - 13.5 - 18.5 - 18.5 - 22.7 - 19.2 - 20.0 - 20.0
3000 - 14.7 - 17.5 - 15.9 - 18.9 - 19.6 - 20.8 - 19.6
4000 - 15.6 - 16.1 - 21.3 - 17.9 - 19.6 - 20.4 - 20.0
5000 - 17.0 - 16.4 . 20.8 - 19.6 - 16.7 - 16.7 - 19.6

Fw 190A-4 vs Spitfire MkVb

Type --- A4 ---- Vb

1000 -- :59 -- 1:39
2000 - 1:57 - 2:57
3000 - 2:59 - 4:05
4000 - 4:02 - 5:03
5000 - 5:00 - 6:02

M/sec

1000 - 17.0 - 10.1
2000 - 17.2 - 12.8
3000 - 16.1 - 14.7
4000 - 15.9 - 17.2
5000 - 17.2 - 17.0


Bf 109K-4 and Bf 109G-2

1000 --- :41 ---:51
2000 - 1:19 - 1:38
3000 - 1:56 - 2:26
4000 - 2:32 - 3:14
5000 - 3:07 - 4:00

And m/sec.

1000 - 24.4 - 19.6
2000 - 26.3 - 21.3
3000 - 27.0 - 20.8
4000 - 26.3 - 20.8
5000 - 28.6 - 21.7

Here's the La-5FN Climbing at 380km/h.

1000 - :46
2000 - 1:35
3000 - 2:33
4000 - 3:45
5000 - 4:52

1000 - 21.7
2000 - 20.4
3000 - 17.2
4000 - 13.9
5000 - 14.9

And here's the Yak-9U

1000 - :48
2000 - 1:34
3000 - 2:23
4000 - 3:07
5000 - 3:51

1000 - 20.8
2000 - 21.7
3000 - 20.5
4000 - 22.7
5000 - 22.7


Here are numbers for the Ta 152, with 100% and 50% fuel.

1000 - :46 - :43
2000 - 1:39 - 1:32
3000 - 2:38 - 2:27
4000 - 3:25 - 3:09
5000 - 4:14 - 3:53

1000 - 21.7 - 23.3
2000 - 18.9 - 20.4
3000 - 16.9 - 18.2
4000 - 21.3 - 23.8
5000 - 20.4 - 22.7

LStarosta
12-24-2004, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
The Fw 190's best attributes are speed, fire power and roll rate, it is also very responsive to controls at high speeds so pulling out of an attacking dive behind your opponent is just beautiful compared to the solid elevator controls of a Bf 109. It should also be more immune to damage but I tend to find the plane gets sloppy after one hit to a wing.

The Bf 109 has an ace up it's sleeve for almost every type of encounter. If the enemy is faster then usually the 109 can turn better and if the enemy can turn better then the Bf 109 can fly faster, climb faster or dive to higher speeds.

I find that the Fw 190 just suffers in late war encounters if you are caught with an enemy behind you all you can do is run, if your enemy is fast then you are toast.

When I fly a P-38 I love getting into a mess with a Fw 190!

There are guys on these boards who say they are very good at flying the Fw 190 online, I have never seen someone pull off amazing fights online, sure they can score big as the Fw 190 is a hard hitter and if you just dive from high altitude down onto half asleep opponents then it's easy to notch up huge scores. The Fw 190 is difficult to fight with when your opponent is aware of you, and takes evasive action, this is due to the terrible forward view and the difficulty of keeping the plane still due to it's responsiveness.

I've seen very impressive La, P-51, Bf 109, P-38, P-39, Yak, LaGG pilots etc. but I've yet to see a Fw 190 pilot that makes you go "wow"

If you are a guy who can do wonderful things with a Fw 190 online then post a track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree wholeheartedly on the defensive/evasive issue. And if you've had any success against Fw190's in a P38, then your opponent was a novice. These two points tie down to one reason. The Fw190's roll rate. Have you tried two Split S's one reversed from the other from altitude? You'll find that most opponents, such as the P38 will not be able to follow the Fw190 into this if it is performed correctly and to the Fw's maximum. Fact. And if you want to see some pure Fw ownage, take your little P38 into Warclouds. I'm sure Zen or some other regular Fw fliers will show you what the Fw is all about.

The 109 and 190 are two different weapons that shouldn't be compared in any match up because they are a totally different class of plane. They complement themselves beautifully, and if you are a 190 driver and pair up with a 109 pilot or vice versa, you can open up a serious can of whoop ****.

ICDP
12-24-2004, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Psshh...fly the 190, learn the 190, and you will see why the following quote is true.

The 190 is a tough aircraft to learn, in my opinion the toughest, everyone has some trouble with it when they first start out, and most ppl aren't very good with it. This is why often you'll find some allied flyers(I said SOME, dont jump all over me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) saying that they have an easy time against 190s, and calling 190s "flying targets". Pay them no heed though, the 190 is an incredibley competetive aricraft, you can be sure of that.

If you're really into the 190, take it up and learn it Jagd, you wont regret it. Like I said, she's a toughie, most ppl just end up giving up on her. The 190 is really difficult to learn, but once learnt flying it becomes an art, and it is well worth it.

Regards,
Fish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally some truth about the Fw190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I love reading quotes on forums about how the Fw190 is an "easy target", "I never fear an Fw190" or my personal favourite "Co E the 190 is useless". I fly many aircraft online but my overall favourite is the Fw190A's and I have no problems fighting with any enemy fighter online. Advice such as "never get caught low and slow in one", "keep fast" etc apply to every single aircraft in the sim.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that the 190 is unbeatable but it is not the pushover many are claiming it to be. When I read statements that a 190 is useless unless it has a big advantage I just roll my eyes and think I must be flying a different sim. Much to the annoyance of my opponent who most likely thought "this is going to be easy" I have turned many dogfights around in an Fw190A.

Here is a nice sweeping generalisation for you all. If you are the type of pilot who values low speed agility over high speed agility then you are not a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Give me a 190 over a 109 every single time, IMHO it is just an all round better fighter that suites my style more than a 109.

MEGILE
12-24-2004, 11:55 AM
The P-47D27 outclimbs the Spitfire VIII to 5,000M? Fuber! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

VW-IceFire
12-24-2004, 03:00 PM
The FW190, at least in game, compliment each other.

The 109 turns better and climbs better.

The FW190 rolls better, generally has more firepower (not always true), is tougher (generally), and is better at high speed.

It looks like the FW190 has a huge advantage. It does not...the Bf 109 is better for some pilots. The FW190 is better for others. I prefer the 190 but I can handle myself in a 109 as well. Some scenarios where the Bf-109G-6A/S and the FW190A-8 are the two main fighters...the G-6A/S becomes the better choice of the two.

p1ngu666
12-24-2004, 05:48 PM
woah robban http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

sometimes i wonder if u do anything but test http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

btw, ive got webspace u could use todo graphs/tables, be much easier for than typin em out here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

co e, the 190/109 are up against it, or if at a disadvantage there not the best plane tobe in, imo

karost
12-24-2004, 11:53 PM
let say 1vs1 109 and 190 with pilots have same skill level you all know that who will win...!

190 need team tactic to perform effective aircombat and a smart 190 pilots know well how , where and when to take their 190 to make a kill score , ok let's see in a history record like JG-26 LW "TOPGUN"

1) why they (JG-26) chagne from 109 to 190 ...?
2) how and why they "was called" as a TOPGUN ?



so IMHO for team's combat 190 is more effective then 109 , but for me 3 years playing this sim I try to improve in 190 but hope less coz my combat style is lonewolf so 109 and ta-152 is my best choice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

Fish6891
12-25-2004, 12:44 AM
I dont agree with you Karost, won't get into details, it would be pointless and redundant, but I stick to the stuff I said b4.

Bremspropeller
12-25-2004, 05:23 AM
The 190 is rather a team-fighter while the 109 is a "Top Gun"-bird...

Of course you can use them vice versa, but you'll always be better flying the 190 in a well organized team.

robban75
12-25-2004, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
woah robban http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

sometimes i wonder if u do anything but test http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

btw, ive got webspace u could use todo graphs/tables, be much easier for than typin em out here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say it's about 50/50. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It would be cool pingu! Hyperion gave me a graph program a while back. It's on my brothers computer, I gonna look for it!

Here's a another test, this time, rollrates. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The below rollrates is the average of 4 rolls.

Time in seconds. The number after the / is with the aid of rudder.

Fw 190A-4 - 2:10/1:90

Bf 109G-2 - 2:80/2:44

Bf 109K-4 - 2:70/2:20

La-5FN ----- 3:15/2:95

La-7 -------- 2:50/2:15

P-40C ------ 2:20/1:99

P-47D ------ 3:15/2:85

P-51D ------ 3:20/2:80

Yak-3 ------- 2:25/2:05

Yak-9U ----- 2:55/2:30

If the Fw 190 had any advantage in RL, it doesn't in-game. Most planes seems to manage 150/170 deg/sec at dogfight speeds ~400km/h. The Mustang differs from the others by reaching its best rollrate at around 550-600km/h TAS.

karost
12-25-2004, 06:45 AM
well for 1944-45 DF server. I see some point why 190 very good in teams-combat only two elements for a general situation..

1) "SPEED" when p-51 meet 109 in his 6 , then the best thing just use a batter "SPEED" to run away and manage to a batter position and turn back to re-enter so 109 just play only defensive role but not for 190

2) "WINGMAN (TEAM) COVER" with out wingman, 190 become bad for defensive situation but not for 109 because 109 can use a batter climb or turn to manage run out from the defensive situation.


if I in p-51 along and I see 4x109G-10 at my 7 o'clock at 1km. that not make me worry coz I can easy stay away from them, but if I see 2x190D at 9 o'clock at 2km above me , well ... that seem interesting right that moment 2x190D is most danger than 4x109 ?

S!

Jagdklinger
12-26-2004, 06:37 PM
ANY 109 DRIVERS OUT THERE?

It seems the 190 people are passionate about their craft, but no-one seems to be offering the other side of the story. Any tips for the 109 (to convert me back...) or is the 109 so 'middle of the road' allrounder there is no special way to fight it?....

BTW....thanks to the forum's tips I have converted to a Fw and am downing planes with ease. The survivability bit is so true - I often come home riddled with holes, compared to the 109 which seems to kaput if the enemy even sneeze in its general direction; also, the elevator controls are great; I 'buy the farm' regularly in a 109 but never in a 190.

OldMan____
12-27-2004, 03:00 AM
If you like slow turn and burn, 109 is perfect for you. But I find this type of combat boring, repetitive and lacks pilot skills most of time.

There are 109 pilots that use it in much more inteligent and skiled ways, but arre not the majority.

One big problem wiht FW190 is the pilot MIND!! Everyone put in his mind he is no match for allied fighters... pffff

Understand that.. liiting your self to a 180 degrees turn you can turn with ANY plane while at 400 kph.. and can outturn any plane at 500 kph.

Do not follow that spitfire in its tight horizontal turn.. wait until he is almot at 180 from you and than roll in your back and reverse vertically. The advantage you can turn 90 or 180 or 270 degrees in exactly same time! Than you will leave pointing righ into the spit..but faster.. when you get close.. you will need to get some deflection angle.. do it using your flaps for 3 to 5 seconds. If you are praticed enough to know how to shoot without seeing your enemy, you will hit him.. or give him a hell of a scare making it loose some E! If you miss raise the flaps and do not continue the turn... go up at about 30 degrees to get soma alt advantage back.

Also remember to reduce thortle just before doing a very tight maneuver so that the very hard gyro and torque effect do not increase the chance of a flip.

Abbuzze
12-27-2004, 03:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
ANY 109 DRIVERS OUT THERE?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I see the advantages of the FW, it´s a newer construktion with more room for further development, but I love my old 109, in a G10 (I dont fly K4) I fear nothing which is in the air of FB/PF.
You can use it as a BaZ fighter, and most of your enemy have allways in mind that if they go into a turn you can follow them! Against any single opponent it is no problem to survive even a P51 with a higher E-stat, stay at a speed whith a good turningrate for the 109, and await the attack, usually after 3-5 of them the E-advantage is gone and the Ponydriver is in serious troubles...

jugent
12-27-2004, 03:45 AM
Dont make the mistake to compare this arcade-game to history.
For example you can do infinite numbers of loopings with any plane in this game, wihtout loosing hight. I think that todays afterburner can do that but no props.
The increaced drag while banking is excluded etc etc.
FW_vs_Me.
According to Jonnie Jonsson "When the german pilots got the FW they stayed and fight. With the Me they ran away"
When LW introduced FW at in France, it dominated the air until RAF improved Spit.
But a classical air ambush was that a wing of FW flew with a topcover of Me:s.
Its like comparing a maraton- to a short distance runner and ask who is the best runner?
If the planes in this game reflected the real planes, Hitlers army would never have occupied Smolensk and the war would be over by 1943.

Fish6891
12-28-2004, 07:11 AM
Glad your enjoying it Jagdklinker http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, remember, there is no "by the book" way to fly any aircraft, you'll get better and and more flexible in your methods, pulling off more complicated and more impressive manuevers in the Focke-wulf as you gain experience from the infinite pool of possible situations you can run into. Like I said, tougher to learn but well worth it.

Skalgrim
12-28-2004, 07:49 AM
109 was eastfron good, because when 109 pilots has trouble he need only climb, he came than to altitude there are was they better.

But not 190 , 190 can not use those tactics.

190 strong is rolling, she roll much better as spit and too accelerate better, but probable not better as yaks, so she can kill spit easy as yaks.

109 had live eastfrom from accelerate and climb, and keep in the mind, westfront was the fight most 7000-8000m, there was spit danger:

spain g10 3150kg 1680ps with merlin engin has climb 28m/sec, german g10 3250kg has 1850ps, that make good climb.

The base that 109 climb so good is the wing, that make good lift,

g2 with 1300ps had initial climb 21m/sec, no spit with similar weigh can that match,

because it seem 109 wing make more lift.

Sailing is too knowing, that longer wings make more lift by same surface.

I dont understand that la-7 can so good turn with short wings,

thinks shorts wings, make by same surface better highspeed turns, but not slowspeed turn like game.

she need 1850ps for 23,5m/sec to climb, spain g10 can with 1680ps 28m/sec climb by same weigh, that means g10 has bettter lift and than probable better turn.

We forgotten that the altitude is important, some altitude wins 109 other spit. I use every time altitude, there are my plane better as the other, and many time i must dive or climb those altitude.

But i think 190 weak, very rare that she has me kill.

Have much more trouble against spit5,

and 190a4 should more danger as spit5 when accounts right or not?

109 was fly spain until 1975 and too finns, and interesting too by the israel


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I have a question in two parts, regarding the relative merits of Germany's two main fighters

A. Historical: How did they match up performance-wise? The Bf109 seems to compare well, statistically, for a much older design. (I'm purely interested in air-to-air capability)
How did the various marks compare? I know most aces flew 109s; but did/would they switch if given the chance?

B. IL2: How do they compare in the game? What about online? Is one clearly superior? (I know it is unrealistic to match them up in a dogfight, but how would it pan out - has anyone done it?) I'm too much of a novice to handle the Fw190s phenomenal roll rate (although I can see how deadly it would be in expert hends).
In my amatuerish hands, the 190 seems to be significantly more vicious stall-wise than the 109, a little less maneouvrable and isn't as good a climber - relatively serious deficiencies for a newer design.

Hoping someone with some experience fill me in a bit here on their relative flight characteristics, tips and tactics to use for both.

Thanks!

EDIT: With a 190 I use shallow dives and climbs, keeping the airspeed up - is this good practice? it almost seems like flying a P38-style zoom and run fighter, only with a weak climb rate... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

xxcurarexx
12-28-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

The 109 and 190 are two different weapons that shouldn't be compared in any match up because they are a totally different class of plane. They complement themselves beautifully, and if you are a 190 driver and pair up with a 109 pilot or vice versa, you can open up a serious can of whoop ****. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny - I just did that the other day on WarClouds on the Bastogne map. I was in my trusty A-9 and I teamed up with a guy in a 109. We just hung out over bastogne and swatted down every spit and p51 that came at us. It went one of two ways:

1. I would spot the enemy first - I would maneuver for a head on pass and my wing cannons would get the enemy crippled or smoking badly. Then my 109 buddy would six him and finish things up.

2. My buddy would spot him first and six him...if the turn fight lasted an uncomfortable amount of time I'd wait for the right moment and BnZ with my wing cannons blazing to finish his opponent off.

It was good fun; I think altogether we took out like 4 or 5 planes before being trapped and dealt with. But our strategy high-lighted the strengths of our planes.

Xnomad
12-28-2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
And if you want to see some pure Fw ownage, take your little P38 into Warclouds. I'm sure Zen or some other regular Fw fliers will show you what the Fw is all about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hit a nerve did I? So basically you are saying that I have to meet the best of the best for someone to show me how 'good' the Wuerger is and you yourself can't? That doesn't do the plane any favours saying something like that. I have flown the P-38 countless times in Warclouds and had many a Fw 190s for breakfast, if an average pilot can't fly the 190 then it isn't any good. Of course I'm talking about FB/PF here and not real life.

As for the double Split S, if I see a plane pull a manoeuvre that I can't follow then I don't even bother following, I pull up for altitude, ....wait... and then go down and finish the job.

Anyone who follows an enemy plane into manoeuvres that favour the enemy is the novice.

Fish6891
12-28-2004, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
And if you want to see some pure Fw ownage, take your little P38 into Warclouds. I'm sure Zen or some other regular Fw fliers will show you what the Fw is all about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hit a nerve did I? So basically you are saying that I have to meet the best of the best for someone to show me how 'good' the Wuerger is and you yourself can't? That doesn't do the plane any favours saying something like that. I have flown the P-38 countless times in Warclouds and had many a Fw 190s for breakfast, if an average pilot can't fly the 190 then it isn't any good. Of course I'm talking about FB/PF here and not real life.

As for the double Split S, if I see a plane pull a manoeuvre that I can't follow then I don't even bother following, I pull up for altitude, ....wait... and then go down and finish the job.

Anyone who follows an enemy plane into manoeuvres that favour the enemy is the novice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've eaten several P38s for lunch in my Fws....SEVERAL. Less ppl fly the 190 than 109 for same reason less ppl fly p47 than spitfires. Its always easier to learn A/C that can TnB well, takes MUCH LESS discipline, its not necessarily because one is better than the other. For some reason ppl naturally tend to lean towards the comfort of knowing you can turn with relative ease, also ppl tend to naturally understand that kind of fighting(Turning) more easily, the learning curve is much steeper for E-fighters.

p1ngu666
12-28-2004, 07:48 PM
robban, check ur pms http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xnomad
12-29-2004, 02:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
I've eaten several P38s for lunch in my Fws....SEVERAL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your point is...? Whoever said the P-38 was hard to shoot down? Is this thread about the strengths of the P-38?

I'm not here trolling I honestly don't believe the Fw is a good plane (in this game, I don't believe it was this bad in RL) and I haven't seen any proof online ever to state the contrary, so as I said before post a track. I would love to see some good work done in this plane!

Lets not forget what the original question for this thread was about, 'how does the Bf 109 compare to the Fw 190?' I have shared my experiences and opinion that is all. If I angered Fw pilots with my opinion then I'm sorry as that wasn't my intention.

WOLFMondo
12-29-2004, 03:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
If the planes in this game reflected the real planes, Hitlers army would never have occupied Smolensk and the war would be over by 1943. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hundreds of un escorted ground attack planes are easy meat for LW pilots and early VVS tactics seem some what lacking. Im not the best in a 109 or 190 but its easy to see that they have great aspects to them with a little prior knowledge on how to use them. What this sim doesn't reflect is large groups of Il2's flying along ponderously slow being picked of by 190's and 109's at there leisure.

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 03:30 AM
Xnomad you fly on Warclouds right? It is very strange that you haven't meet a good 190 flyer yet....

Fish6891
12-29-2004, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
I've eaten several P38s for lunch in my Fws....SEVERAL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your point is...? Whoever said the P-38 was hard to shoot down? Is this thread about the strengths of the P-38?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I simply mentioned that in order to emphasize on the fact that mentioning how many FWs you've shot down on your P38 lacks substance, it doesn't say anything. Regardless I won't continue to argue, I stick to what I said---



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
often you'll find some allied flyers(I said SOME, dont jump all over me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) saying that they have an easy time against 190s, and calling 190s "flying targets". Pay them no heed though, the 190 is an incredibley competetive aricraft, you can be sure of that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sir.Robin-1337
12-29-2004, 03:41 AM
The FW-190 currently competitive?
My friend, let me enlighten you to the plane known as the BF-109K4.

Fish6891
12-29-2004, 03:49 AM
I should've expected you Sir Robin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mynameisroland
12-29-2004, 07:54 AM
i dont want to hi jack this thread either but the FW190 makes short work of the P38 - i have never had any trouble against this type even on my first weeks on line. It is to clumsy in rolling manuvers it is a large target and its armament does not justify its size.

Any FW with 108s installed and the P38 had better not leave the runway. FW A5 and A6 are nimble and if kept fast can out dive, out roll and out turn the Lighting. The Dora 9 is a different class and will destroy any lighting if the pilot is worth their salt.

TgD Thunderbolt56
12-29-2004, 08:05 AM
In a 1 vs 1 fight (in this game) the 109 stands a statistically better chance of survival over the 190...but the FW190 is the ULTIMATE pack-fighter.

When flown in a rotte with a good wingman using a loose duece or similar tactic, the 190 can reign supreme.

Xnomad
12-29-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
I simply mentioned that in order to emphasize on the fact that mentioning how many FWs you've shot down on your P38 lacks substance, it doesn't say anything.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lacks substance? I mentioned that I shot down a lot of Fw 190's in Warclouds because LStarosta told me to "take your little P38 into Warclouds", implying that I would have a hard time, so why are you replying to my replys to him???

And the reason he said this was because I said in my original post that when I fly allies, I fly the P-38 and I love to mix it with 190's. So please feel free to criticise me for saying what I like to do. I'm so sorry Fw 190 pilots for enjoying an encounter with you in my P-38 I'll try not to enjoy it next time I shoot one of you down.

It's quite obvious that I hit a nerve with Fw pilots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

As for not paying heed to people saying that the Fw 190 is not competitive; I have seen some amazing online pilots who do well in every plane but dislike the Fw 190, and I generally believe the majority of Fw 190's are flown badly out there so that 1 in 100 chance that it's an expert out there shouldn't give any one any unecessary reason to worry.

Xnomad
12-29-2004, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
Xnomad you fly on Warclouds right? It is very strange that you haven't meet a good 190 flyer yet.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't flown Warclouds in 3 months now as I moved to Australia in September and only have a 56k modem here. The ping to Warclouds is 525ms and higher for some of my favourite servers. I never saw any good Fw fliers on Warclouds when I did fly, it may have been due to different timezones as I was in the UK back then. The only names I saw on Warclouds that I recognise from these boards are Leadspitter, the GR boys,the LLv34 boys, F16, F19 etc. I'm guessing that good Fw pilots are mainly from the US.

NorrisMcWhirter
12-29-2004, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"In a 1 vs 1 fight (in this game) the 109 stands a statistically better chance of survival over the 190... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did you arrive at that conclusion? From my experience, the 190 is much better for getting the job done in terms of downing targets and getting back to base purely due to it's speed/roll combination giving an unrivalled capability to disengage at will. i.e. You can stay in a DF with the 109, and you might even shoot something down, but this doesn't make it safer.

If there is a suggestion that the 190 was only effective against unescorted vvs aircraft, perhaps someone should ask those RAF pilots who were sorely outclassed by it in 1942?

Some people are right, however; the 190 is best used in packs but that is true of any aircraft.

Cheers,
Norris

p1ngu666
12-29-2004, 10:16 PM
the 190 does well against russian aircraft, but against the IX its in trouble, the IX can outclimb it, thus can get the advantage in a 1v1/team match where take off is at the same time.

also the performance of 190 is poor at alt..

yes the vb isnt likely to trouble a 190 greatly