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View Full Version : Well I'll be a... I never knew that!!!



Bearcat99
07-11-2007, 06:09 PM
This is a Nazi propaganda poster that was shown in a book on WWII history that my son got in his book fair.

http://star.walagata.com/w/bearcat/redskull_0.jpg

Does that guy look familiar.. The Red Skull (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4775/skull.html)..
I had no idea that he was based on anything other than some comic writer's imagination.

Urufu_Shinjiro
07-11-2007, 06:11 PM
Hmm, the plot thickens....

Crash_Moses
07-11-2007, 06:43 PM
One of my favorite bad guys...or, in this case, good guy.

Hmmm...that'd make a cool pilot skin.

VW-IceFire
07-11-2007, 07:07 PM
Allot of the modern day comic books have their roots in WWII propaganda...if not directly influenced then as a derivative of the original style. Its really quite interesting how the comic books sort of evolved and went on to the next level after the war.

I didn't realize how demonized the American soldier was in Nazi propaganda. I realize that was pretty common practice but they took demonization to a literal level!

Haigotron
07-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Isnt Captain America created as the ultimate Anti-Nazi warrior? Too bad what happend to him in the Civil War series...anybody?

MrMojok
07-11-2007, 07:30 PM
Yes, he defeated space aliens, giant cyborgs, evil geniuses, and sharks with laser beams on their heads for sixty years, and then someone finally discovered Cap's weakness--- bullets.

Bearcat99
07-11-2007, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Haigotron:
Isnt Captain America created as the ultimate Anti-Nazi warrior? Too bad what happend to him in the Civil War series...anybody?

Yes.. and I also of course knew that Cap was originally created during WWII.. but I didnt know that the Skull was a Nazi creation.

leitmotiv
07-11-2007, 07:44 PM
It is a fact that the Germans made a propaganda goldmine out of the capture of an American bomber crewman who was wearing the name of his aircraft on the back of his leather jacket: "Murder Incorporated". The pre-war Germans were huge consumers of Hollywood films (especially Hitler and his entourage), and they instantly recognized the title of the well-known 1930's gangster film, but this did not stop Goebbels from using the image of the jacket to try to fashion the idea the Americans gloried in murdering German civilians. Thus, the image was spread throughout the world by the Nazi propaganda machine, and, from this, the notion of happily mass-murdering "American gangsters" was derived.

M_Gunz
07-11-2007, 08:35 PM
I've seen pre-war Nazi propaganda including kids being taught to worship Hitler over Jesus.
Jesus, he was a nice guy but Hitler is so much more all of that that he is so much better.
And then some priests got to test their faith. I'm sure that at least one in particular did
not give Der Feurer any trouble and rumored that he ratted out others that did not agree with
the Party Line.

Germany wasn't a real great place to be for a long time back then, putting it more than mildly.
I can't think of any 1st world country in the last century that had it so bad in peacetime as
they did in Germany. So when somebody turns total economic collapse and need to carry cash in
a wheelbarrow or suitcase just to buy groceries into jobs and stability after years and years
of MILLIONS of percent inflation and high unemployment, then most people did not question or
look when opening your mouth could get you killed and did time after time. And they went from
not questioning to supporting except not everyone did so much as try to not stand out as the
next victim in times when victims were much in demand.
I can't really blame the Germans the way so much history does. I don't know of any 1st world
nation that can take even 1/1000th the inflation of 1920's Germany without freaking out. Not
even 1/50,000th (I figure that's 100% inflation) of the worst years in Germany without having
to add whatever multiple of unemployment as well -- imagine no job and needing big money every
week, how many died homeless even before 1930?
It was times like that that allowed the Evil bastages to take over and steer the country to ruin.

I had a teacher for 3 years that left that just before Sept 1939 and joined the US Army. He
was one of the most intelligent people I have known. I asked him right out to get his words,
"why did you leave Germany?". After he figured out where I was coming from, he laughed and
smiled and said "Causea dat nut Hitla!". Yeah almost 40 years in the US and still accent,
the guy was cool. I knew his sons, one in my grade in school, all very cool and reasonable
people.
So I know from him and asking questions that really a lot of Germans were not so supportive
except for when "under the lights". Some left because he couldn't have been the only one.
I also have an Aunt who was there in Regensburg but she gets upset, doesn't say much. They
really did not know even half of what was going on, that's part of how the Nazis kept control.

And what hurts is that it can happen again "for good reasons".
The thing is, with the energy crunch on and the water crisis on and tight populations, the
world is headed into times when the same may become easily possible again (20 years is not
a real long time.. if you think so then wait that long and look back again, it won't be) and
not in just one or two places either. Totalitarianism in the name of economy has to be
guarded against inside borders as well as outside. When your freedoms start wobbling for
whatever reason and groups of people are scapegoated then it's time to fight or move.

My feeling is that we 1st worlders today are no better than those Germans were 1919-1935
and probably can't take even what they did for nearly as long.

Pirschjaeger
07-11-2007, 09:54 PM
Am I in GD? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I agree with you guys, people do repeat history. We have short lifespans, poor education, fractional and fictional history books, and short memories.

But I also have to wonder, if we don't kill each other en mass every few decades, what new and interesting diseases would pop up? I'm not saying it's right but rather saying it's a sort of balance in nature. I don't think we've overpopulated the Earth. We've just mismanaged it's resources which is of course equally as bad.

Anyway, war propaganda is interesting to me. I see it as an almost desperate method of expression. It does have a notable psychological and sociological impact on both the individual and the populace. Propaganda shines brightest during war time, as with technology.

A couple years ago I was in Hannover visiting the museum. They have a photographic propaganda exhibit I found to be very interesting. There were samples used by the Nazis to samples used for Iraq. Hitler made made poses, including facial expressions, for the Nazi propaganda machine to use at will. There was a photo of what looked like US soldiers helping an Iraqi drink a bottle of water. In the pre-cropped photo it was obvious the soldiers were actually using water torture. Nothing in the photo had been changed; it was simply cropped. Who ever cropped it had a great imagination.

It is nice to see negative propaganda turned into something positive though such as the red skull.

Fritz

Bearcat99
07-11-2007, 10:01 PM
The reason I even posted this was because I was a big Tales to Astonish fan... Cap & Iron man... I think Namor & The Hulk shared a title too.... At the time I was surprised that Captain America was originally from WWII.. along with the Human Torch & Namor... but I was just surprised to see The Red Skull in a history book... and then to realize that it was sort of like.... reverse propaganda... originally he was supposed to be a captured American soldier.. but the Americans got him.. created Cap... and he became Caps #1 foe.

BTW.... Fritz.... lets keep this back in WWII shall we.... please don't bring current events into this discussion. Don't hijack my thread that way.

Pirschjaeger
07-12-2007, 05:23 AM
Sorry BC, I thought your thread was about propaganda. If it's about comics I know nothing of them. Never read them.

MaxMhz
07-12-2007, 05:37 AM
Are you sure that poster isn't photoshopped?

From what I can make from the German text and composition it's a pre-war (1925-1934) elections campaign poster for list 1 (Hindenburg).

JG53Frankyboy
07-12-2007, 05:44 AM
indeed, the text of the poster gives no hint that this red skulled person is an US soldier ?!?!

VonKlugermon
07-12-2007, 06:04 AM
Hey, he DOES look familiar:

http://www.jimcarreyonline.com/images/albums/movies/mask/promotional/mask-promotional06.jpg

(Except he's red-faced, maybe he's blushing in front of Hitler!)

Willy

MaxMhz
07-12-2007, 06:17 AM
The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced it's a fake. Can't see it good enough - too small, but I think I can see the poster has been folded in the past - this is visible in the '1' and on the H man, but not on redskull's jacket? Can you get a higher resolution scan?

Bearcat99
07-12-2007, 06:46 AM
Why would it be fake? Maybe the author interpreted it wrong.. perhaps that is supposed to be a communist.... It would seem more likely. I don't think it is fake though.. why bother? Maybe Max is right....but Hindenberg wasnt a Nazi right? So perhaps it is a pro Nazi election poster... and the "wise serene leader" seen in the oster is the campaign vewrsion of Hitler.. and the guy in the background is the opposition.... I dunno.. I just saw the picture.. in the book it is smaller than that so the resolution is what it is.


Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Sorry BC, I thought your thread was about propaganda. If it's about comics I know nothing of them. Never read them.

Not even as a kid? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif You poor guy... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
07-12-2007, 06:55 AM
Sorry guys, it's a fake.

The original poster is on this site.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/hindhit.jpg

'Another March 1933 poster. The text: "In the deepest need Hindenburg chose Adolf Hitler for Reich Chancellor. You too should vote for List 1." Courtesy of Dr. Robert D. Brooks.'

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 07:14 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif too funny - a crappy fake of a propaganda poster used as propaganda! Brilliant!

Why would it be fake?
Because we, our gvt, and our schools lie to our children too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (I did not forget about your book BC just been away for a bit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Feathered_IV
07-12-2007, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Sorry guys, it's a fake.

The original poster is on this site.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/hindhit.jpg

'Another March 1933 poster. The text: "In the deepest need Hindenburg chose Adolf Hitler for Reich Chancellor. You too should vote for List 1." Courtesy of Dr. Robert D. Brooks.'

Priceless! Did the makers of the textbook know they were falsifying it, or did they get one put over on them?

mrsiCkstar
07-12-2007, 07:19 AM
lmfao....

SithSpeeder
07-12-2007, 07:21 AM
Good find, Low_Flyer!

Thanks for setting it straight.

* _54th_Speeder *

Bearcat99
07-12-2007, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Sorry guys, it's a fake.



Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif too funny - a crappy fake of a propaganda poster used as propaganda! Brilliant!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Why would it be fake?
Because we, our gvt, and our schools lie to our children too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (I did not forget about your book BC just been away for a bit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow..... I am floored.... or should I say re-floored... That's wild!!! Max hit it on the head... looking at the other poster it seems to be the same poster.. the fold lines are exact.

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 07:35 AM
This was in a history book? What is the title so I can check it out further?

Bearcat99
07-12-2007, 07:38 AM
"In their own words World War II" by Colin Hynson

published by Gareth Stevens

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 07:38 AM
found the image here (http://captain-america.us/ww2-wallpaper2.htm)
LOL

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 07:46 AM
Quite the historian (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/105-5129682-4474014?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Colin%20Hynson)
This guy has kids history books on everything - Columbus, Ancient Greece, Pyramids, D-Day, Gettysburg, etc. Glad to see such care and research going into what our kids are taught.

Amazon editorial review of that book:

Editorial Reviews
From School Library Journal
Grade 5-8-Despite the series title, these books contain little in the way of primary sources, merely presenting snippets of documents, letters, songs, etc., in sidebars. The glossy, gray pages are difficult to read and are cluttered with too many photos, maps, and poster reproductions. In the first volume, the causes of World War II are described in one paragraph. The text and photo captions do not always correlate well. Moscow and Leningrad are discussed in the text, but the caption describes a photo from Stalingrad. Another caption describes German soldiers parading prisoners through the streets of Moscow when, in reality, the walls of that city were never breached. World War I has part of the time line out of order. The text discusses a Cenotaph, but the term is not explained in context or defined in the glossary. The biographical sketch of Woodrow Wilson incorrectly states that he was governor of New York rather than New Jersey. Attractive covers cannot salvage these brief surveys.-Eldon Younce, Harper Elementary School, KS
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Too bad your son spent his $$ on this trash.

MaxMhz
07-12-2007, 07:47 AM
definitely a fake.
I believe it is based on a march 1933 election poster. The guy in the background on the left is Paul von Hindenburg. The jacket redskull is wearing has a cunning resemblance as to how communists were depicted at the time. At the time the communists were outlawed after a Dutch communist was blamed for torching down the Reichstag.
It took some searching, but HERE (http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm) is the original poster.[EDIT]: lol I see lowflyer beat me to it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm MASSIVELY impressed with American history teachings... NOT
Better buy an extra Sturmo 1946 and 'puter BC - he'll learn a LOT more here than in those kind of "history" classes...

Pirschjaeger
07-12-2007, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
BTW.... Fritz.... lets keep this back in WWII shall we.... please don't bring current events into this discussion. Don't hijack my thread that way.

C'mon BC, admit it. I was in your thoughts when you first read Low_Flyer's post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW, thanks Low_Flyer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ok, now that we are back on topic, I don't get why you are so surprised. You've been here long enough to see these come up time and time again. When was this propaganda propaganda poster recreated?

I fell for it in the beginning but once I opened one of the links and saw the poster clearly, it was obviously a fake for many reasons.

As for trying to hijack your thread I think you should think again. My post was in reply to the previous posts, included in the posts were past and present history.

The art of propaganda is not limited to WW2.

Fritz

StG2_Schlachter
07-12-2007, 10:28 AM
So what does the institution, responsible for supervising which books are read in class, say to this?
I mean. This is only a fake poster, but if this is a fake, then what else in this book is fake?

I find it alarming, that the decendants of the self-proclaimed most advanced and generally superior nation don't learn history like it really was.

Pirschjaeger
07-12-2007, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
....decendants of the self-proclaimed most advanced and generally superior nation,...

That's propaganda too. I just returned from Thailand and their women are superior. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bearcat99
07-12-2007, 11:37 AM
I was more surprised that the book was being sold at the school book fair.... and it was so full of holes....

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 11:39 AM
That's propaganda too. I just returned from Thailand and their women are superior. Wink2
DING! Quote of the week goes to Pirschjaeger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Winner receives a beer at Hofbrauhaus on me (subject to both judge and winner being, you know, in Munich....which I'm not but sure wish I was http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

MaxMhz
07-12-2007, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
So what does the institution, responsible for supervising which books are read in class, say to this?
I mean. This is only a fake poster, but if this is a fake, then what else in this book is fake?

I find it alarming, that the decendants of the self-proclaimed most advanced and generally superior nation don't learn history like it really was.

No-one learns history like it really was.

History is experienced and gets forgotten and twisted with time.

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 11:48 AM
I was more surprised that the book was being sold at the school book fair.... and it was so full of holes....
We live in the age of truthiness. No one cares if something is true, only that it sounds true. The average person on the street has little capacity for evaluating information and even less facts against which to compare new information.

Pirschjaeger
07-12-2007, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I was more surprised that the book was being sold at the school book fair.... and it was so full of holes....

If I were you BC I'd bring this up with the media. People need to be made aware, not just in your country but all.

I'm not saying this as a joke and I'm not picking on you, but isn't it your, and other GD members, Constitutional, if not moral, duty?

Pirschjaeger
07-12-2007, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Winner receives a beer at Hofbrauhaus on me (subject to both judge and winner being, you know, in Munich....which I'm not but sure wish I was http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

If photobucket wasn't blocked I'd post pics of the Hofbrauhaus.

After one beer we'll head to a village where beer is half price. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p-11.cAce
07-12-2007, 01:20 PM
http://www.hofbraeuhaus.de/de/bilder/heutige_bilder/gast_bedienung.jpg
MMMMM...goodness http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mortoma
07-12-2007, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
It is a fact that the Germans made a propaganda goldmine out of the capture of an American bomber crewman who was wearing the name of his aircraft on the back of his leather jacket: "Murder Incorporated". The pre-war Germans were huge consumers of Hollywood films (especially Hitler and his entourage), and they instantly recognized the title of the well-known 1930's gangster film, but this did not stop Goebbels from using the image of the jacket to try to fashion the idea the Americans gloried in murdering German civilians. Thus, the image was spread throughout the world by the Nazi propaganda machine, and, from this, the notion of happily mass-murdering "American gangsters" was derived. Yeah, clever but I guess in their minds it was OK to murder thousands of British civilians. Before any of their civilians got killed by USA.

MB_Avro_UK
07-12-2007, 02:07 PM
Hi all,

Good thread. Nice to see that this community through the power of the web can find the truth http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Nice post Bearcat, and it was investigated to the point of revealing the facts for all to ponder...

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

raaaid
07-12-2007, 02:08 PM
captain america included his fighting against red skull, a nazi thats why he is with hitler