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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:10 AM
Since the P-38 is on its way, lets start up a P-38 thread! No LuftFlamers please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You know who you are.

P-38 is simply my favorite aircraft. It is stunning to look at, and simply powerfull. I got a Flight Journal Special Issue "P-38 Lightning Combat Action" and it had a lot of suprising facts in it! One of the most suprising to me was 1 day in the war the P-38 created no less then 6 "instant aces" where more then 4 AC were shot down in a single mission by scoreless pilots!!! 4 in the Med, and two in the Pacific.

This mag is a great additon to any P-38 fans.

I also remember reading a mag about the P-38 in the Med. The P-38 squads were almost ALWAYS out numberd by FW-190's Mc-200 and 202's but still came up better. So much for the "Win by superior numbers" therie. One dogfight enguaged 48 FW-190's against 16 P-38's. They shot down 8 FW's for the loss of 1 damaged P-38. I wish I could find that mag. Great read.

Anyone else have any stuff on the P-38 they wanna share?

Gib



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:10 AM
Since the P-38 is on its way, lets start up a P-38 thread! No LuftFlamers please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You know who you are.

P-38 is simply my favorite aircraft. It is stunning to look at, and simply powerfull. I got a Flight Journal Special Issue "P-38 Lightning Combat Action" and it had a lot of suprising facts in it! One of the most suprising to me was 1 day in the war the P-38 created no less then 6 "instant aces" where more then 4 AC were shot down in a single mission by scoreless pilots!!! 4 in the Med, and two in the Pacific.

This mag is a great additon to any P-38 fans.

I also remember reading a mag about the P-38 in the Med. The P-38 squads were almost ALWAYS out numberd by FW-190's Mc-200 and 202's but still came up better. So much for the "Win by superior numbers" therie. One dogfight enguaged 48 FW-190's against 16 P-38's. They shot down 8 FW's for the loss of 1 damaged P-38. I wish I could find that mag. Great read.

Anyone else have any stuff on the P-38 they wanna share?

Gib



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:14 AM
I read some time ago of one american pilot flying the P38 in the mediterranean that shot 5 stukas headed to attack a british convoy, in one single sortie...According to the pilot (whose name I can´t remember) he didn´t like the p38 because it was hard to fly and very fatiguing...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:19 AM
Dont say to many nice things about it Gibbage or everyone will be flying it making it to hard for me to get any kills /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/crest.gif


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:22 AM
BTW, one of the biggest advantages of the 38 was its two engines, which meant that one could be damaged or blown off and the plane could still make it back home...Another big advantage was its great range, making them possible to escort the bombers into Germany and back home again...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:44 AM
He claimed 7 Stuka's. Maj. William L. Leverette. 14th Fighter Group. On October 9th 1943. His wingman Harry T. Hanna claimed five. Two P-38's whiped out 12 Stuka's in 3 passes.

Gib

cueceleches wrote:
- I read some time ago of one american pilot flying
- the P38 in the mediterranean that shot 5 stukas
- headed to attack a british convoy, in one single
- sortie...According to the pilot (whose name I can´t
- remember) he didn´t like the p38 because it was hard
- to fly and very fatiguing...
-


"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:06 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- He claimed 7 Stuka's. Maj. William L. Leverette.
- 14th Fighter Group. On October 9th 1943. His
- wingman Harry T. Hanna claimed five. Two P-38's
- whiped out 12 Stuka's in 3 passes.

Not a bad sortie if you ask me...

The Stuke was well obsolete by 43 wasnt it? I could be totally wrong.

Regards,

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:16 AM
Hers some awsome sites with good information.

http://p-38online.com

http://p38assn.org/

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38.html

http://members.tripod.com/crashsitep38/

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p38-27.jpg




P4-2.4Gig
1GigPC2100 DDR Ram
SoyoDragon Ulrtra Mobo
8X AGP Slot
GF-4Ti4600pny
20"Monitor
40GigHD
58xCDRW-Drive
DVDRom-Drive
SB-Live 5.1
DX-9.0
XP-PRO
So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:36 AM
June 10th, 1944 over Romania. A P-38 group on there way to Ploesti found a bunch of IAR-80's. Lt. Herbert Hatch of the 1st fighter group shot down 5. His P-38 chopped 1 in half with a short birst.

Lt. MMurray J. Shdin shot down 5 Zero's in a 40 min long dogfight against 10-15 Zero's.

Sure Stuka's are easy prey, but Zero's and IAR-80's are not! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GoreChild wrote:
- Gibbage1 wrote:
-- He claimed 7 Stuka's. Maj. William L. Leverette.
-- 14th Fighter Group. On October 9th 1943. His
-- wingman Harry T. Hanna claimed five. Two P-38's
-- whiped out 12 Stuka's in 3 passes.
-
- Not a bad sortie if you ask me...
-
- The Stuke was well obsolete by 43 wasnt it? I could
- be totally wrong.
-
- Regards,
-
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:37 AM
well, i think it's quite impossible the p38 in the med were outnumbered by mc200 and mc202, it's a tipicaa american legend :-)

Davide

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:45 AM
In the beginning, there were very few P-38's. And it was not just Mc200 and 202's. It was everything the Axis had. I read one story of a group of P-38's found the retreating flight from Africa. They downed an astonishing number of Ju-52's, Ju-88's and Me-109's in a short time. 48 shot down, and another 20 damaged.

Also, the US did not always have numerical superiority. It took time to ramp up, and we only had number advantage from 1944 on. From 1942 till then, we were out numberd quite a bit. In the Med, Pacific, and over Berlin.

Gib

FAFL_Mined wrote:
- well, i think it's quite impossible the p38 in the
- med were outnumbered by mc200 and mc202, it's a
- tipicaa american legend :-)
-
- Davide
-
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:46 AM
the best fighters in WW2 had the word =

""SPITFIRE"" in front of their name :P

so there :P

& btw ... with all the progress your getting done im personally hopeing you only manage to find PART-time work

salute Gibbage1



Message Edited on 06/23/0309:48AM by WUAF_Badsight

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:55 AM
Don't know much about it, was the '38 another Merlin powered wonder?

If you're REALLY bored after that one Gib, pick up the most attractive Merlin twin, the Mossie /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SSS

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:00 AM
The P-38 was also tough as nails. Read this pilots account.

Col. Harold Rau led 50 P-38s on a strafing mission to Munster-Berlin, April 5,1944. Rau's wingman, 1/Lt. Jack Yelton, was strafing on the deck when his P-38J was hit by flak and, in his words:

Both windows were broken, the cockpit was a mass of pulp and glass from shattered instruments. No compass, no nothing. Both engines were streaming oil and prop juice, but the thing was still running I had some cut, on my face and neck and there was a lot of blood but nothing serious.

My problem was which way to go as long as the engines kept running. Without a compass, I had no idea which way. It seems I had hit among a maze of German airfields. Within the next four or five minutes, I shot down two aircraft which were low and obviously in the traffic pattern. The first was an FW-200 with wheels down at 500 feet. I got it broadside from stem to stern. The thing exploded.

Two minutes' later, I saw an FW-190. I crawled within 2,000 feet of him before he noticed me. He pulled a dumb maneuver; beginning a gentle, straight climb. I crept on his tail, keeping the trigger down. At about 900 feet, he caught fire. I saw the pilot climbing over the side.

A few seconds later, both my engines--both, not one--started to quit. The props were windmilling. I didn't have enough altitude to bail out. I decided to crash land on a German strip, intending to make a nice, but rough, belly landing with no injuries to myself. As I came in dead stick, I must have gone crazy for I pulled the act which I shall always regret.

It was a wide runway. I started in. I noticed two Me-110s sitting in a very tight position on the right side, getting ready for a formation takeoff, about 500 feet from the runway. I must have gone completely batty because I kicked right rudder and aimed straight at them. The last thing I remember was looking into both cockpits and then wham! The whole world exploded.

The crash and explosion must have been simultaneous. The next thing I knew, I was lying on the runway a few hundred feet from the burning wreckage with a few rosy-cheeked Hitler Youth kicking me in the ribs!

Jack Yelton was lucky enough to survive because he was thrown out of the cockpit, landed some distance away and broke both his shoulders. The injuries were aggravated by no medical attention for 15 days. In February, 1945, he was returned home to the U.S.


"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:10 AM
whooooooooooooo.. Gibb...There are many correction in what you said..I am talking about Romania mission.
First P38 will be a very nice plane.If it was a US plane that I love then is the P38. Perhaps i am inlove with Kelly Johnson work/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

There is always 2 sides of the story.

Gibbage1 wrote:
- June 10th, 1944 over Romania. A P-38 group on there
- way to Ploesti found a bunch of IAR-80's. Lt.
- Herbert Hatch of the 1st fighter group shot down 5.
- His P-38 chopped 1 in half with a short birst.
-

The planes where 81C and some 80M(IAR80 updated to the 81C weapon standard 2x20mm+4x0.30").

Romanian accounts list one plane shot down, one other heavily damaged and two lost in a collision in the first moment of the attack for total losses of 4 planes and 3 pilots.

Hatch claimed 5, plus 2 probable.Problem was that Hatch and another pilot where the only survivors from 71st Squadron.No one could confim their kills.
The losses in that raid for US where severe 30%.

Check this http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizanti/vizanti.htm
Still is not the best report of the battle.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:29 AM
Hi Gibbage
Read Jack Ilfreys book 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy'. Great pics,good stories and facinating flight accounts! There is a great bit in there about how the P38's stayed with 109's in vertical climbs and they simply waited for the 109 to 'fall of the top of the climb' and simply picked them off!! It would make a great reference book for your project.
S!

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/aeroart/images/hunhunter-texas_sig2a1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:38 AM
The account that I have said out of 48 P-38's, 14 of the P-38's were lost. Now this is in starc contrast to what you just posted. You say 30% loss rate, but you also say 46 of 48 were shot down? (only two survivors?). Of course im going to go with my source, the pilot.


tomcat1974 wrote:
- whooooooooooooo.. Gibb...There are many correction
- in what you said..I am talking about Romania
- mission.
- First P38 will be a very nice plane.If it was a US
- plane that I love then is the P38. Perhaps i am
- inlove with Kelly Johnson work/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .
-
- There is always 2 sides of the story.
-
- Gibbage1 wrote:
-- June 10th, 1944 over Romania. A P-38 group on there
-- way to Ploesti found a bunch of IAR-80's. Lt.
-- Herbert Hatch of the 1st fighter group shot down 5.
-- His P-38 chopped 1 in half with a short birst.
--
-
- The planes where 81C and some 80M(IAR80 updated to
- the 81C weapon standard 2x20mm+4x0.30").
-
- Romanian accounts list one plane shot down, one
- other heavily damaged and two lost in a collision in
- the first moment of the attack for total losses of 4
- planes and 3 pilots.
-
- Hatch claimed 5, plus 2 probable.Problem was that
- Hatch and another pilot where the only survivors
- from 71st Squadron.No one could confim their kills.
- The losses in that raid for US where severe 30%.
-
- Check this <a
- href="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizanti/vizant
- i.htm"
- target=_blank>http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizant
- i/vizanti.htm</a>
- Still is not the best report of the battle.
-
-
-
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>



Message Edited on 06/23/0302:45AM by Gibbage1

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:38 AM
SpinSpinSugar wrote:
-
- Don't know much about it, was the '38 another Merlin
- powered wonder?
-


Nope Powered by Allison-
-
-
-
-
-
-





"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:51 AM
LW_lcarp wrote:
-
- SpinSpinSugar wrote:
--
-- Don't know much about it, was the '38 another Merlin
-- powered wonder?


Lets get this aircraft in perspective. The prototype XP-38 aircraft was completed in December of 1938 about the same time as the very early 109's and before the Merlin.

-one of the designers was "Kelly" Johnson later famous as chief designer at the Skunkworks and responsible for the SR71 Blackbird.

-the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was the first twin-engined interceptor to serve with the USAAC,

- it was the first production fighter powered by the Allison V-1710 in-line engine,

- it was the first modern fighter equipped with a tricycle landing gear,

- it was the first American plane to use butt-jointed flush riveted external surfaces,

- it was the first to make extensive use of stainless steel,

- it was the first fighter to use a bubble canopy right from the start,

- it was the first fighter with speeds over 400 mph,

- it was the first US twin-boom fighter to go into production,

- it was the first USAAF fighter to shoot down a German aircraft,

- it was the first USAAF fighter to carry out an escort mission to Berlin,

- it was the first USAAF plane to land in Japan after that country had surrendered,

- it was the heaviest US single-seat fighter of World War 2,

- it was the only American fighter in production at the time of Pearl Harbor to be still in production at the war's end,

- it accounted for more Japanese aircraft destroyed in combat than any other US fighter.

A total of 10,037 Lockheed Lightnings were built

michapma
06-23-2003, 11:52 AM
Gib, where did he say that 46 of 48 were shot down? Am I looking at the wrong post?

He also did at least provide an Internet article:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizanti/vizanti.htm

Cheers,
Mike

PS &ndash; Check your PM.

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:55 AM
Gibbage1

If the P38 was as good as you indicate here, how come it was replaced in escort duties in ETO post 43 onwards by P47 then the pony. Don't get me wrong I'm not critising and I could be wrong, but wasn't it moved to more of a ground attack role (like the P47, because it was good at it?).

BTW great work on the model, you have some talent there and I admit I'm a little green with envy of it/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:00 PM
Natural progression i do beleive as the 47 could go farther then the 38 and so on with the mustang



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:04 PM
Well as good as P-38 reputation may be, Günther Rall recently stated "The worst shortcoming in 109 was the limited range, but P-38 and P-47 did not pose that much of a problem. But the P-51 was more difficult, very comparable to Bf 109 in actual combat." But as he said, P-51 could do it for a few hours longer in a flight.

He said it on the recent visit to Finland where he held lectures. Full story here: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/guntherrall2003/

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:04 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
- Natural progression i do beleive as the 47 could go
- farther then the 38 and so on with the mustang
-
-


Thanks for the info lcarp/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

michapma
06-23-2003, 12:15 PM
WTE_Galway wrote:
-
- LW_lcarp wrote:
--
-- SpinSpinSugar wrote:
---
--- Don't know much about it, was the '38 another Merlin
--- powered wonder?
-
-
- Lets get this aircraft in perspective. The prototype
- XP-38 aircraft was completed in December of 1938
- about the same time as the very early 109's and
- before the Merlin.

I didn't know that, cool. Why weren't they used in place of Wildcats early on? Were they not ready until later?

-- it was the first production fighter powered by the Allison V-1710 in-line engine,

Must have been before the P-39 then.


-- it was the first modern fighter equipped with a tricycle landing gear,


Definitely must have been before the P-39.


-- it was the first fighter to use a bubble canopy right from the start,

Does the P-39 qualify as having a bubble canopy?


-- it was the first USAAF plane to land in Japan after that country had surrendered,

Curious as to why.


-- it accounted for more Japanese aircraft destroyed in combat than any other US fighter.

A major advantange over the Zero was its higher ceiling and superior high-altitude performance. What's the quote about the P-38 being able to choose when to engage/disengage from the fight with Zeros.

Anyway, it would be great to have it with the FB engine. It wasn't very satisfying to fly in CFS2, though I knew little about it then. I would especially appreciate it if we are provided with alternative maps/planes in a later add-on, or in a Med (or Pacific) sim.

Cheers,
Mike

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Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:43 PM
--the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was the first twin-engined interceptor to serve with the USAAC,
-
-- it was the first production fighter powered by the Allison V-1710 in-line engine,
-
-- it was the first modern fighter equipped with a tricycle landing gear,
-
-- it was the first American plane to use butt-jointed flush riveted external surfaces,
-
-- it was the first to make extensive use of stainless steel,
-
-- it was the first fighter to use a bubble canopy right from the start,
-
-
-- it was the first fighter with speeds over 400 mph,
-
-- it was the first US twin-boom fighter to go into production,
-
-- it was the first USAAF fighter to shoot down a German aircraft,
-
-- it was the first USAAF fighter to carry out an escort mission to Berlin,
-
-- it was the first USAAF plane to land in Japan after that country had surrendered,
-
-- it was the heaviest US single-seat fighter of World War 2,
-
-
-- it was the only American fighter in production at the time of Pearl Harbor to be still in production at the war's end,
-
-- it accounted for more Japanese aircraft destroyed in combat than any other US fighter.
-
- A total of 10,037 Lockheed Lightnings were built



You forgot one:



- it was the first of the most ugly planes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.chrissi007.de/jabog32)

Online unterwegs als I/JG68Toryu

Come As You Are !

http://www.jg68.de.vu

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:46 PM
He said only two survived. My reccord states 48 P-38's were in the group, and lost 12. His states 26 IAR-80 and 81's attacked that group, and only two survived to tell the tale. So if we were to believe him, 26 aircraft shot down 46 P-38's, and the only two survivors "bragged" about there kills? Not likley. Also, his web page states that the IAR-80 was "inferior in every way to the P-38 and P-51" yet 26 shot down a hole squad of P-38's. Something not meshing here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gib

michapma wrote:
- Gib, where did he say that 46 of 48 were shot down?
- Am I looking at the wrong post?
-
- He also did at least provide an Internet article:
- <a
- href="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizanti/vizant
- i.htm"
- target=_blank>http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizant
- i/vizanti.htm</a>
-
-
- Cheers,
- Mike
-
- PS - Check your PM.

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:51 PM
P-38 was (and is) a pearl among allied planes, but...
(and this is a big BUT (not butt)) Priller mentioned in one interview that if a single german fighter did see a lone plane they always attacked it if it was P-38 or P-51, but they thought at least twice before attacking if it was P-47.
Anyway it would be fun to have P-38 in FB with a realistic flightmode etc.

Regards SheerLuck Holmes

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:51 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
-i read a story where... my uncle once dreamed... i cant find it anymore...but i read /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



It took time to ramp up, and we only
- had number advantage from 1944 on.



wrong! read >>jagdgeschwader 27<< and you´ll see the dimensions.



From 1942 till
- then, we were out numberd quite a bit. In the Med,
- Pacific, and over Berlin.



yeah, those hundreds of berlin raids in 1942 were sure really big cinema.





---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:07 PM
Yes Gibbage, i have that FJ special issue also.Its a P-38 lover`s must have.

I really love the part in one story when the P-38 uses one of his engines to block incoming Zero fire from his side.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:10 PM
The story that threw me was the one about the F5 (Photo recon P-38) that out dove 3 Me-262's, but could not pull up. He had to bail just before impact. Very interesting story's.

Gib

lazio5 wrote:
- Yes Gibbage, i have that FJ special issue also.Its a
- P-38 lover`s must have.
-
- I really love the part in one story when the P-38
- uses one of his engines to block incoming Zero fire
- from his side.
-
-
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:14 PM
Go away flame boy. We dont need your type here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Go make your typical "I worship (Insert German aircraft here) thread" and leave ours alone.

Gib

Bremspropeller wrote:
-
- You forgot one:
-
-
-
-
-
-- it was the first of the most ugly planes

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:16 PM
LoL...flameboy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

One question: are you beleiving the things you post here ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Man-oh-man...

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.chrissi007.de/jabog32)

Online unterwegs als I/JG68Toryu

Come As You Are !

http://www.jg68.de.vu

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:21 PM
lol brems, you see yourself confronted mit nationalism.

be carefull! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif





---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:25 PM
Bremsproppeller. with all respect, but
Gibbage has an daydream, so please don´t wake him up.
it´s a very patriotic dream /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif "how i won the war ".
so please stay away . he need his sleep /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:36 PM
Please get back on topic. If you have something to post about the P-38, great! If you want to contenue down this road of personal attacks, I will be contacting a mod to settle it. You are warned. I will not put up with this.

Gib

Boandlgramer wrote:
- Bremsproppeller. with all respect, but
- Gibbage has an daydream, so please don´t wake him
- up.
-
- it´s a very patriotic dream /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif "how i won the war ".
- so please stay away . he need his sleep /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-
-
http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif
-
- Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
- It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman
- Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic
- tribes. According to a widespread theory, the
- Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who
- remained in the country, the original Celtic
- population and the Germanic invaders.
-
- Bavarian History : <a
- href="http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/gesc
- hichteE.html#kap0"
- target=_blank>http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Informat
- ion/geschichteE.html#kap0</a>



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:36 PM
ok i'll go on rofling quiet..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
*quiet rofl quiet rofl....*

@brems you are a na*i, and we all know now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
(nimms nich pers¶nlich, ich rofle nur grad es bissche...)

@gibbage,
i respect your work, and the P38 would be nice to see in FB.
But u should stop thinking that every US-Plane was superior...just have a look at some technical details (mass, power, m2 etc) combine that with logical thinking (eg.where is the center of mass?) and you can see some times things that are not written in some pink magazines. (that was for every kind of whiners which want there favour to be on top everytime and ignore the facts)

<div style="text-align: center;">
<hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;">
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"Ick bin ein Würgerwhiner"

Message Edited on 06/23/03 12:47PM by ToP_BlackSheep

Message Edited on 06/23/0312:49PM by ToP_BlackSheep

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:43 PM
i personally think the p38 is quiet cool. im not that much into 2-mots but this one surely could compete better against fighters than the me110 which had other qualities.

that doesn´t mean that its another wondermashine... but it surely would be a nice addition. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:48 PM
The P-38 actually is the plane that was flown by the two leading US aces:

Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire.

The second one was KIA in the Lightning when he turned very tight in order to protect his wingman from a japaneese fighter when his plane suddelny stalled and crashed into the sea.

The Lightning is not a bad plane, but it's no "super fighter". MOST one-engine fighters are superrior to the P-38 in one or more aspects /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.chrissi007.de/jabog32)

Online unterwegs als I/JG68Toryu

Come As You Are !

http://www.jg68.de.vu

RichardI
06-23-2003, 01:48 PM
If you were to make a list of the top American aces during WWII (all theatres), the top 5 flew P-38's.
The P-38 was the only aircraft to be used in ALL theatres of WWII.
Great plane...

Rich /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:00 PM
i feel fear. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:14 PM
pierre clostermann book"brennender himmel" english call i dont now

4 p38 2 ace was too thereby, meet lone zero that has before attack torpedoboot

the ace was tommy MacGuire 38 airvitory and mayor Rittmayer 14 airvictory

they have attack lone zero but this little zero could kick they easy

after short fight both ace was killed from lone zero pilot,then go ammo out from zero pilot,because he has before attack torpedoship, but the other 2 p38 can too not shootdown this zero after long fight and go away,because other zero came to help

lack for the both other p38,that zero pilot has many ammo shoot off for torpedoship

otherwise 4 p38 was shootdown with 2 ace

you find for brester,p47,p51,109,190,spit etc

many accounts that show,that plane must be a superior

ally ace clostermann means p38 inferior to p47,p51


Message Edited on 06/23/0311:54PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:20 PM
I think the reason the p-47, and p-51 took over escort duty had to do with the allison engine and cold at high altitude.

Don't quote me, but it may have been a supercharger problem in the frigid temps at high altitude in europe, whereas in the pacific theater there were no such problems.

Perhaps someone else could shed more light on the subject.

Widgeon

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:27 PM
Coming back OT, Gib

That guy must have been lucky to survive the bail if he was going that fast he couldn't pull up, least I assume he survived?


Gibbage1 wrote:
- The story that threw me was the one about the F5
- (Photo recon P-38) that out dove 3 Me-262's, but
- could not pull up. He had to bail just before
- impact. Very interesting story's.
-
- Gib

BTW beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and IMO she is a beaut /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:31 PM
widgeon wrote:
- I think the reason the p-47, and p-51 took over
- escort duty had to do with the allison engine and
- cold at high altitude.
-
- Don't quote me, but it may have been a supercharger
- problem in the frigid temps at high altitude in
- europe, whereas in the pacific theater there were no
- such problems.
-
- Perhaps someone else could shed more light on the
- subject.
-
- Widgeon
-
-
the p38 was'nt happy going to 20,000ft from a damp northern european climate so there was reliabilety problems,allso the pilots were a little naive/wary of the unusual twin engined fighter,by the time the new dive flaps had arrived the pilots had already moved on to the P47/51 and the majority of P38's(the ones that stayed centred on ground attack) were sent to warmer climates(med/pacific)where they were quite succesful.

any chance of an F or/and H Gibbage?




<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:31 PM
p38 outdive me262 and then bailt,

with this speed can you not bailt,near by 1000km/h

it give to many fisherman story with extrem overstatement

that too the base that oleg not use pilots memory



Message Edited on 06/23/0304:44PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:40 PM
skalgrim does have a point..





---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:41 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- He said only two survived. My reccord states 48
- P-38's were in the group, and lost 12. His states
- 26 IAR-80 and 81's attacked that group, and only two
- survived to tell the tale. So if we were to believe
- him, 26 aircraft shot down 46 P-38's, and the only
- two survivors "bragged" about there kills? Not
- likley. Also, his web page states that the IAR-80
- was "inferior in every way to the P-38 and P-51" yet
- 26 shot down a hole squad of P-38's. Something not
- meshing here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

48 P-38 from the 1st FG provided escort for 46 P-38 of the 82nd FG which had one 500kg bomb each to bomb the refinery. A total of 23 aircraft were lost.

1st FG lost 14 aircraft and claimed 26-3-6
82nd FG lost 9 aircraft and claimed 8-1-2
among the claims were Me109, Fw190, Bf110, Me210, He111, Hs126 and unknown single-engined fighters.

28 IAR downed 14 P-38 by 4 own losses (2 collided)
German Me109G (JG 53) downed 6 P-38 by 1 own loss

Hatch was member of the 71st FS which lost 9 of 13 aircraft during the battle.

&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src='http://www.aviation.ru/Il/2/Il-2M_f.jpg';o.height=65;o.width=65</script>

&lt;script>color="#727A88";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].background=color;a[a.length-2].background="http://www.mausoft.de/code2.jpg";a[a.length-5].bgColor=color;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:59 PM
WTE_Galway wrote:

-
-- it was the first fighter to use a bubble canopy right from the start,
-

The Westland Whirlwind had an order placed for 2 prototypes in Feb '37 while the first prototype for a XP-38 was placed June '37.

- Lets get this aircraft in perspective. The prototype
- XP-38 aircraft was completed in December of 1938
- about the same time as the very early 109's and
- before the Merlin.

Yes lets.

The Merlin first flew in Hurricane K5083 on Oct. 23 1935, over 3 years before the P-38. The Merlin first flew in Spitfire K5054 on Mar. 5 '36.

The first 109 flew in Oct. 1935.



-------
@ SpinSpinSugar

When it was found out that Merlins were to be tested in the P-38, GM (Allison's parent company) went on a big lobbying campaign to have the tests stopped, and succeeded.





http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:18 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
- Natural progression i do beleive as the 47 could go
- farther then the 38 and so on with the mustang
-


Nope, the Lightning had significantly more range than the contemperary Thunderbolts.


.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:23 PM
I said Squadron..71th..from 12 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif not 48/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ..did u bother to check that link..?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Anyway good luck with the modeling../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:25 PM
JFW wrote:
-
- LW_lcarp wrote:
-- Natural progression i do beleive as the 47 could go
-- farther then the 38 and so on with the mustang
--
-
-
- Nope, the Lightning had significantly more range
- than the contemperary Thunderbolts.
-

And significant means, as far or farther than the Pony.




http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:32 PM
What I remember about the P-47 and P-51 taking over for the P-38 was that the P-38 was expensive and time consuming to build. It was cheaper and quicker to pump out P-47's and P-51s. I remeber it being more about money and time to field from the factory than performance related

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:36 PM
It would stand to reason that as bombers flew higher, the fighters would have to have better high alt performance. I remember that the p-38 had a pretty bad compressibility problem in diving.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:38 PM
KSS_Rook_UK wrote:
- Gibbage1
-
- If the P38 was as good as you indicate here, how
- come it was replaced in escort duties in ETO post 43
- onwards by P47 then the pony. Don't get me wrong
- I'm not critising and I could be wrong, but wasn't
- it moved to more of a ground attack role (like the
- P47, because it was good at it?).
-


Since Gibb hasn't replied...


The 47 and the 38 both did escort in overlapping timeframes. Both types were phased out to a large extent in favor of the pony for escort duties. The 47D lacked the range necessary to go to berlin but the P-38 had other issues not related to pure flight performance that prompted it's replacement in the ETO:

1) easy recognition put it at a disadvantage.
2) Trouble with Allison engines at altitude
3) Pilot comfort / heat.
4) Complex operation / flight routine of switching gastanks and precharging weapons and such
5) Poor pilot training in regards to multi-engine fighter
6) ground fire vulnerability
7) Maintenance
8) low critical mach

A lot of these issues were solved satisfactorily with the introduction of the 'J-25' and 'L' models, but by that time the choice had allready been made to make the switch.

Performance wise, it was a lot more capable fighter than the Luftwaffe fanbois like to admit. Down low it was more than a match for the Fw-190 and Bf-109s. It was heavy, but it could flat out turn, it could climb, and it was fast. The only thing that left the P38 pilot wanting was accelleration and inferior roll-rate, particularily at slow speeds.

There was a comment by one German ace who said it was the easiest American plane to shoot down. You really can't argue with the man as he was undoubtably an accomplished pilot, yet I've never heard the exact reasons why he stated such. I have a hunch it had to do with problems with recognition and the complex and time consuming state of affairs with the earlier lighnings as far as charging guns and switching tanks immediately after getting bounced that prompted that assessment. Nevertheless, there are a few pilots that had completely different thoughts about the 38, both American and German.


.

.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:42 PM
Gibbage did you get my PM?

http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:51 PM
The coolset thing about the p-38 imo is that it had a sort of yoke instead of a standard stick. And I just happen to have a yoke gathering dust in my closet waiting for an intersting bomber to make its appearance in game.

Strapping it on and dogfighting with it is going to be pretty cool. Gonna have to learn a bunch of stuff all over again if it gets in game.

Which is very cool.

That and firepower and speed are always nice.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:04 PM
Hiya RichardI,

I agree that the P-38 was a great plane.

But are you sure it was the only aircraft to be used in all theatres of WWII?

I would've thought there'd be at least one or two others.

panther3485

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:12 PM
Don't get me wrong, I like the P-38, but generally I have the impression it didnt fare well against equal opposition in ETO and MTO. At least experienced 109 pilots had no problems shooting down P-38s. Steinhoff once shot down 4 Lightnings in as many minutes in a dogfight over his own airfield. Rudorffer shot down 6 in a mission (and two P-40s) over North Africa. Of course these claims are not veryfied with american records, as Hatch's story as well/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Gibbage, that is generally the problem when you only read stories from one side. I dont think Hatch bragged about kills or something, but according to Vizanty's account (which is also quoted in "in the skies over Europe" by Hans-Werner Neulen) the dogfight was a very confused one in a narrow valley. It is absolutely impossible to correctly verify kill claims in such a life and death situation, I think. The rumanians overclaimed heavily as well, they claimed over 20 Lightnings shot down in this engagement only.
But generally I have the feeling that the MTO P-38 squadrons did more than the usual overclaiming and kill veryfication was not as strict as with the 8th or 9th AF. Neulen's book also has a chapter about the air combats over Bulgaria, when P-38s regularly claimed kill tallys in the 20s each mission, while actually only one or two Bulgarian De 520s or Me 109Es (far inferior aircraft) were shot down.
For the Pacific, the P-38 was the ideal fighter, of course, but that was a different air war.

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:35 PM
Lots of jungle floating on that sea.


Bremspropeller wrote:
-
-
- The second one was KIA in the Lightning when he
- turned very tight in order to protect his wingman
- from a japaneese fighter when his plane suddelny
- stalled and crashed into the sea.
-




http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

RichardI
06-23-2003, 04:38 PM
panther3485:-
Actually, what I meant to say was the fighter used in every theatre. Not sure about the only aircraft. But, yes, the only FIGHTER used in all theatres of WWII.

Rich

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:45 PM
The reason WHY the P-38 didn't do well in the ETO was that it really wasn't suited for the role of a high-altitude escort. It had the WORST heat which resulted in frosted windows and the pilot losing the will to fight (USAAF words not mine). AND it was very restricted early on in terms of dives. Split S's were prohibited for the early part of its career and German's knew this and could get away (note: I did not say FOLLOW). Until the advent of the J with compressibility flaps and power boosted ailerons (which aided roll rate significantly, but only at higher speeds) the P-38 was not exactly the best equipped plane for high altitude combat. But, by the time the P-38 had been modified, P-47s were already arriving en masse.

The P-38 did fairly well int he Med, but MUCH better in the Pacific where the warmer weather really let the plane come into its own.

It's important to remember that just because the P-38 didn't do well at high altitude doesn't mean it's not going to excel in FB. The P-38 can sustain a turn inside that of a Bf109 or Fw190 (I don't know about the VVS) and is noted as being one of the most aerobatic USAAF planes. Also, while its rear and side visibility is restricted, it has some of the best forward visibility of any plane during the war. This coupled with over 30 seconds of .50 cal firing time, 15 for 20mm, the close grouping of the armament, means that the P-38 should be a deflection shooting monster.

It's capabilities should make it a beast in the low altitude world of FB>


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<center><font color=yellow>BlitzPigMachine<font>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:50 PM
Speaking for the range of the P-38 (I'll leave it's other attributes or detriments to you folks), Operation Bolero saw hundreds of P-38's shuttled to England from Canada. The route was: first, to Greenland, then Iceland before arriving in England. They flew there under their own power, and although a few were lost (we all know about the Glacier Girl and the lost squadron by now, right?), the vast majority arrived in working condition. The plane could carry two extra fuel tanks, although this could not be considered an advantage since it had two Allisons to power.
Gibbage, I think I love you (just kidding, but thank you so much for working on this plane!)
Tsisqua

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39s.jpg


Conflict cannot survive without your participation.

--- Dr. Wayne Dyer

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:53 PM
RichardI wrote:
- panther3485:-
- Actually, what I meant to say was the fighter used
- in every theatre. Not sure about the only aircraft.
- But, yes, the only FIGHTER used in all theatres of
- WWII.
-
- Rich

Not counting the Hurricane?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:58 PM
Thanks for your post JFW, appreciated.

I think if I remember correctly (been a while since I read stuff on it) some of the earlier models were prone to fatal spin/stall and at high dive speed the tail was prone to failure, I'm not 100% on this but I believe these problems were corrected with the 'J' model,but do you or anyone else know if this correct?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:09 PM
Interesting reading about mission 37 of the the 20th FG's Lightning Jocks: http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/6940/mission37.html


http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39s.jpg


Conflict cannot survive without your participation.

--- Dr. Wayne Dyer

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:41 PM
MiloMorai, thank you for pointing out that the Westland Whirlwind was the first to use a bubble canopy right from the start. Small point I know, but it's nice to get the little things in perspective.

Here's something that many of you may know, Charles Lindbergh flew with the 475th Fighter Group. Oh and he sorted out a little problem with fuel comsumption with the P-38 no less.

Go here for the details:

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/wwii/


<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/sigs/WhirlyMeanSig2.jpg?0.8357766843806891

'Whirlwind Whiner'
The First of the Few

Message Edited on 06/23/0305:44PM by SECUDUS

RichardI
06-23-2003, 05:46 PM
Olli_72 wrote:-
Not counting the Hurricane?

Was the Hurri used in the Pacific? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Rich

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:48 PM
At least it was used against the Japanese.
Not strictly pacific in a geographic sense, but over Ceylon, Burma, Malaya and so on...

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:50 PM
was the P-38 used in Russia?

(referring to: "was used in every theatre of WW2"...)

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:04 PM
Not to nitpick, but I disagree with statement "P-38 only fighter used in every theater..." The P-40 was used by just about every allied nation in every theater!! I am *really* surprised no one else has mentioned this! (unless USSR is not considered ETO???).

Its all acedemic anyway, who cares. the P-38 is one of the most important AC of WWII, and I am overjoyed to be getting it in FB!!!

I just hope the FM of P-38 isn't whacked like the Me-262 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif WTF good is having 2 engines if you can't fly on one????? DF servers look out /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

----------------------------------------
<font size="+1">

S!</p>
How do I want my eggs?? Scrambled!</font>

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/rafaq_zveno2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:30 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Go away flame boy. We dont need your type here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
- Go make your typical "I worship (Insert German
- aircraft here) thread" and leave ours alone.
-
- Gib
-
- Bremspropeller wrote:
--
-- You forgot one:
--
--
--
--
--
--- it was the first of the most ugly planes
-
- "You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You
- win a war by making the other fool die for his
- country."
-
- <center>
- <A HREF="http://gibbageart.havagame.com" TARGET=_blank><img
- src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.j
- pg"></A>
- </center>
-
-
-


Uhm... Gibbage, the way I see it, YOU are the one ALWAYS starting threads like "This US plane won the war" or "This US plane totally pwned this German plane" or "Please worship this US plane as it is great!"

Get over the damn annoying patriotism man!

All this thread is getting is posts of praise from either US people or people who like US planes. Then when some (like Brem) comes in and says ONE negative thing (amongst all those mostly irrelevant and wrong) positive info you get p*ssed off.

Get OFF the patriotism drugs. You give the US a bad name.

<center>
---------------------------------------
"Atleast I'll go down in style!"
http://www.elleemmeshop.com/model1/aero/re4341.jpg
<center>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://dynamic5.gamespy.com/~ptv/forum/images/avatars/cb3aa7823dfbfdb6d1a30.gif'</script>
&lt;script>var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName;o.height=56;o.width=74</script>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:37 PM
I agree. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:45 PM
Any aircraft with a propeller is beautiful no matter the national insignia.

You're not having fun 'till they dial...911!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:46 PM
regarding the P-38, I'd say:
[Ubi forum mode]
shut up and model it, Oleg will make it inferior to any soviet plane anyway, there's nothing you can do about it[/Ubi forum mode]

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:55 PM
KSS_Rook_UK wrote:
- Thanks for your post JFW, appreciated.
-
- I think if I remember correctly (been a while since
- I read stuff on it) some of the earlier models were
- prone to fatal spin/stall and at high dive speed the
- tail was prone to failure, I'm not 100% on this but
- I believe these problems were corrected with the 'J'
- model,but do you or anyone else know if this
- correct?
-

No problemo sir!

the tail coming off is either related to compressibility which occured when making high-speed dives from higher alts. It basically caused irregular airflow over the wings which prohibited lift. The resulting vortex could and did rip tails off (or just incenerated the entire ship), sometimes the poor P-38 bloke was able to ride it out by idling both engines with the broadest pitch available and by waiting for the critical mach number to go up closer to sea level. Later special dive flaps were retrofited or came equipped to force normal airflow under the wing.

The other issue that may take off a tail was 'tail flutter' at high speeds. This issue was solved early on even before the F model by reversing the directions the prop rotated at (from inward to outward) and by a making a slightly different angle to the elevator.

Re: P-38 vs VVS. Concievably, at speeds right above stall the Lightning could hold a turn better than most any single engined fighter due to having no torque effects. Anything above that the Yaks would chew it up inside in sustained turns. But at those low speeds the P-38 would likely lose altitude fast and find itself slower and lower versus a generally more agile russian fighter.



.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:05 PM
Red_Storm wrote:

- Uhm... Gibbage, the way I see it, YOU are the one
- ALWAYS starting threads like "This US plane won the
- war" or "This US plane totally pwned this German
- plane" or "Please worship this US plane as it is
- great!"
-
- Get over the damn annoying patriotism man!
-
- All this thread is getting is posts of praise from
- either US people or people who like US planes. Then
- when some (like Brem) comes in and says ONE negative
- thing (amongst all those mostly irrelevant and
- wrong) positive info you get p*ssed off.
-
- Get OFF the patriotism drugs. You give the US a bad
- name.



well said,

btw: a modeller should know about the plane he wants to model...





---------------------------------------



under 30k?



Message Edited on 06/23/0311:14PM by NuFoerki

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:13 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Sure Stuka's are easy prey, but Zero's and IAR-80's
- are not! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Not StG77 stukas /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



-----------------------------------------------------
</center>http://members.fortunecity.com/stg77/stg77banner.jpg
-----------------------------------
When a German Infantry unit's advance is halted...who do they call?? The Fighter jocks? Get real!!...They call the STUKA Pilots !!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stg-77.net

The_Blue_Devil
06-24-2003, 12:14 AM
The Stuka is a contender..

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

&lt;script> a=document.all.tags("td");for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["The_Blue_Devil")!=-1) ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Jug Lover"; </script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/361FGsmall.gif'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
&lt;script>d="doc";doc=window[d+"ument"];var a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#F0CE41";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#000000";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#000000";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#000000";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#000000";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#000000";}</script>



Message Edited on 06/23/0307:17PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:16 AM
Show me a threat that I started like that. It should be easy. There is an archive and a search engine. Enjoy.

Gib

Red_Storm wrote:
-
-
- Uhm... Gibbage, the way I see it, YOU are the one
- ALWAYS starting threads like "This US plane won the
- war" or "This US plane totally pwned this German
- plane" or "Please worship this US plane as it is
- great!"
-
- Get over the damn annoying patriotism man!
-
- All this thread is getting is posts of praise from
- either US people or people who like US planes. Then
- when some (like Brem) comes in and says ONE negative
- thing (amongst all those mostly irrelevant and
- wrong) positive info you get p*ssed off.
-
- Get OFF the patriotism drugs. You give the US a bad
- name.
-

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 03:25 AM
ToP_BlackSheep wrote:

- @gibbage,
- i respect your work, and the P38 would be nice to
- see in FB.
- But u should stop thinking that every US-Plane was
- superior...just have a look at some technical
- details (mass, power, m2 etc) combine that with
- logical thinking (eg.where is the center of mass?)
- and you can see some times things that are not
- written in some pink magazines. (that was for every
- kind of whiners which want there favour to be on top
- everytime and ignore the facts)


Perhaps you should stop thinking everything with a black cross on it was superior to anything with a white star.

I see a lot of nationalism in this thread. And it aint American.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/torchcat.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 03:59 AM
-Well, I can't add much to the technical side of the discussion, but I can say 2 things. One, The P-38 was the first ever a/c to be held in my little hands [in a plastic model version] when I was a kid and I have loved heavily armed a/c ever since.And two, I read a post on here erlier about the P-38 and it had a link to a pretty good P-38 story. The part that sticks with me was when the pilot was describing the feel of the stick in his hands. Because of the dual pistal-grip stick and the concentrated guns up front, he could just steer those guns like a firehose, spraying the target and destroying it utterly. Now this sounds like an aircraft that I could actually score some online kills with! Gibbage, again my thanks! -GFC charter member

<marquee>Stukageschwader 77 : coming soon to an airbase near you. </marquee>


Remember: It's not just a job, it's a chance to bomb the crap out of everything you see and NOT get called a dirty vulcher!

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 04:03 AM
bump this. woo a P-38 ....yea those german pilots should be worried. and the vvs are nervous at the least...GO GIBBAGE ..YES ! long live FB MODELLERS !!!

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:11 AM
I would just love to say how much I love the P-38. I know that it was a cold aircraft, and had fuel problems (because of the limited amount of proper quality fuel in 43), but it simply was the best escort fighter in WWII.

Take Eastern/Western Front Ace Johannes Steinhoff, he said that he feared the P-38 the most of all aircraft he flew against. Period. It had a low profile, it's guns could hose you down at 2000 yards (no convergence, full rate of fire as there was no propeller synch), and could outclimb you. In the Pacific, Japanese Ace Sakai said it was the plane he feared the most, it could engage you on its terms and you couldn't outclimb it.

It was a hard plane to learn how to fly, but once you did, you were untouchable. In comparison the Mustang could make any pilot look like a pro, and it was much cheaper than the Lightning THAT'S the reason why the Mustang was chosen over the P-38 J-LO as the escort fighter of choice in 1944 and 1945. The top pilots actually preferred the Lightning's capabilities.

Believe me it was the best US fighter, that's why it was used for recon. Unarmed and alone, it would take photos deep over Germany and run like hell for home if intercepted, usually without any problems.

I can't wait till this plane is available. It will (should) rule the skies. Great work on the model Gibbage!


Gibbage1 wrote:
- Since the P-38 is on its way, lets start up a P-38
- thread! No LuftFlamers please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You know who you
- are.
-
- P-38 is simply my favorite aircraft. It is stunning
- to look at, and simply powerfull. I got a Flight
- Journal Special Issue "P-38 Lightning Combat Action"
- and it had a lot of suprising facts in it! One of
- the most suprising to me was 1 day in the war the
- P-38 created no less then 6 "instant aces" where
- more then 4 AC were shot down in a single mission by
- scoreless pilots!!! 4 in the Med, and two in the
- Pacific.
-
- This mag is a great additon to any P-38 fans.
-
- I also remember reading a mag about the P-38 in the
- Med. The P-38 squads were almost ALWAYS out numberd
- by FW-190's Mc-200 and 202's but still came up
- better. So much for the "Win by superior numbers"
- therie. One dogfight enguaged 48 FW-190's against
- 16 P-38's. They shot down 8 FW's for the loss of 1
- damaged P-38. I wish I could find that mag. Great
- read.
-
- Anyone else have any stuff on the P-38 they wanna
- share?
-
- Gib
-
-
-
-
- "You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You
- win a war by making the other fool die for his
- country."
-
- <center>
- <A HREF="http://gibbageart.havagame.com" TARGET=_blank><img
- src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.j
- pg"></A>
- </center>
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:34 AM
I doubt it will "rule the skies" but it will give fair compatition. I still think the Yak 3 will rain supream as long as it can out-climb a 109 K4 and out turn a humming burd http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Its the only aircraft I fear when I am in my P-39.

Gib

BeachBody wrote:
-
- I can't wait till this plane is available. It will
- (should) rule the skies. Great work on the model
- Gibbage!
-
-

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:00 AM
Yes McGuire was killed by a stall in a P-38. But you got the story wrong. He never dropped his fuel tanks before enguaging a Zero. His squad members begged him to drop it, but his famous last words were "I can handle him WITH the drop tanks". Nothing like a cocky American hay? P-38's were very unstable with drop tanks or bombs because between the engine and gondola was a high drag area. That area also caused the compresability.

BTW. Most of McGuire kills were in turn fights with Zero's. This is haw cocky this guy was! Turn fighting Zero's in a P-38. In the right hands, it can do it. In the right hands, anyone can make any aircraft into an "UBER" aircraft.

Gib

Bremspropeller wrote:
- The P-38 actually is the plane that was flown by the
- two leading US aces:
-
- Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire.
-
- The second one was KIA in the Lightning when he
- turned very tight in order to protect his wingman
- from a japaneese fighter when his plane suddelny
- stalled and crashed into the sea.
-
- The Lightning is not a bad plane, but it's no "super
- fighter". MOST one-engine fighters are superrior to
- the P-38 in one or more aspects

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:33 PM
Hey aren't you even going to feed me (the troll)? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I love the P-80's progress btw. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
---------------------------------------
"Atleast I'll go down in style!"
http://www.elleemmeshop.com/model1/aero/re4341.jpg
</center>