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LeadSpitter_
01-13-2005, 05:11 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/crying.jpg

LeadSpitter_
01-13-2005, 05:11 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/crying.jpg

MEGILE
01-13-2005, 05:26 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

You are a naughty boy Leadpsitter, but by all accounts, correct.
BF-109s are impressive machines.

On a side note, I broke my wing off a BF-109G6A/S today, under 700KMH using too much trim..
Wish I had recorded the track, and had someone to take a picture of the experssion on my face. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
01-13-2005, 05:27 PM
LS i flew today with you, it was messy lol
anyway you should STFU ,this is not even funny
however i DO get annoyed by all those n00b 10whines spraying with Mk108s and stealing kills

i wish server hosts would limit late war 109s with MW50+mk108s because they are over used and maybe they've gotten better by time i dunno i dont fly late 109s that much anymore but they are 10 times easier to fly then any 190 out there ,would be nice if normal 109G6s without mk108s were up against P51D's and Spitfire's MkIX's IF they make the Mg151 a little stronger and elevator control a little better at high speed without the use of heavy trim

and the comment on 190s killing with one burst is total BS if you consider i fly A5/A6 and D9
would be also nice to limit the Axis with the A8 and A6

the D9 is the hardest to get kills in because of "only" 2xMg151s +2x13mm which should be more then enough to take out any fighter with a good burst historical but not in this game i can spend 1/2 of my ammo on a stupid spit alone

A9 with mk108s is another story but would be nice to limit it again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
01-13-2005, 05:30 PM
Sunburst should be banned from Warclouds IMO, he killed me yesterday. We were not amused. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
While I agree with the sentiment that the German planes are better than they have ever been... Allied planes still kick ars3 over 25,000FT. Its a shame most people don't capitalize on this.

LeadSpitter_
01-13-2005, 05:32 PM
Yeah I had a great time flying with you sunburst and was fun to wingup in 190s. As well as winging up with you on allied side for a bit when there was more germans.

Yeah those guys in 109s were getting annoying when we switched to blue shooting over our shoulders hitting us when we were on enemy planes, shooting the allied aircrafts after we finished them off when nothing left but a fuselage falling to the ground and they steal the kills a couple times from us.

I agree with you megile seems wc's is no one go for targets at all becuase of death kick no one flies the bf110 b25 etc just under 1000m turnfights with spits and 109s. Later at night the better pilots come on and have some good fights over 5000m but its still rare for people to attack ground targets usually only allied do in p38s but all get kicked in a couple minutes.

KGr.HH is a good bunch if im flying allied and them german they are usually always the ones who will kill me.

MEGILE
01-13-2005, 05:34 PM
Hey Lead where was I bro.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OldMan____
01-13-2005, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
LS i flew today with you, it was messy lol
anyway you should STFU ,this is not even funny
however i DO get annoyed by all those n00b 10whines spraying with Mk108s and stealing kills

i wish server hosts would limit late war 109s with MW50+mk108s because they are over used and maybe they've gotten better by time i dunno i dont fly late 109s that much anymore but they are 10 times easier to fly then any 190 out there ,would be nice if normal 109G6s without mk108s were up against P51D's and Spitfire's MkIX's IF they make the Mg151 a little stronger and elevator control a little better at high speed without the use of heavy trim

and the comment on 190s killing with one burst is total BS if you consider i fly A5/A6 and D9
would be also nice to limit the Axis with the A8 and A6

the D9 is the hardest to get kills in because of "only" 2xMg151s +2x13mm which should be more then enough to take out any fighter with a good burst historical but not in this game i can spend 1/2 of my ammo on a stupid spit alone

A9 with mk108s is another story but would be nice to limit it again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so would be nice to limit Spit Mk9? Or you don´t see it is even more used than Bf109?

Stop looking for problems at the other side always.

Usually LW pilots ask for very little things. A Slightly better mg151, elevator that do not lock at 450 kph on bf109 and self sealing tanks on 190..


but look how much *@$$@!&¨¨(&#@! allies pilots put on this forum everyday complaining about everything. Of course.. some os these complains are fair.. but people like XXXXXXXXXXX expose it at such ridiculous ways that they loose all credbility.

MEGILE
01-13-2005, 05:36 PM
Oldman you just brought the tone down... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif


The only allied whine I see in the ORR is about Corsair pilot models... I guess the Reds are content now.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

As for flying up high.... it happens.. on occaison, and that's about it.
If people are flying on the deck in a P-47 or P-51 and getting outturned by BF-109G2s, I don't have any sympathy. Likewise with FW-190s twisting Spitfires.

In the dogfight rooms, due to the nature of the fighting, all planes are pretty much equal and it comes down to pilot skill.
But if we were to fly anything like realisticaly, the SpitfireIXe would get its ars3 kick IMO.... BF-109K and FW-190D9 can disengage at will. They both leave the Spitfire behind.
But that doesn't mean sh1t when there is a 10 plane furball on the deck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

maybe I should start flying high altitude coops instead.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
01-13-2005, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
LS i flew today with you, it was messy lol
anyway you should STFU ,this is not even funny
however i DO get annoyed by all those n00b 10whines spraying with Mk108s and stealing kills

i wish server hosts would limit late war 109s with MW50+mk108s because they are over used and maybe they've gotten better by time i dunno i dont fly late 109s that much anymore but they are 10 times easier to fly then any 190 out there ,would be nice if normal 109G6s without mk108s were up against P51D's and Spitfire's MkIX's IF they make the Mg151 a little stronger and elevator control a little better at high speed without the use of heavy trim

and the comment on 190s killing with one burst is total BS if you consider i fly A5/A6 and D9
would be also nice to limit the Axis with the A8 and A6

the D9 is the hardest to get kills in because of "only" 2xMg151s +2x13mm which should be more then enough to take out any fighter with a good burst historical but not in this game i can spend 1/2 of my ammo on a stupid spit alone

A9 with mk108s is another story but would be nice to limit it again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so would be nice to limit Spit Mk9? Or you don´t see it is even more used than Bf109?

Stop looking for problems at the other side always.

Usually LW pilots ask for very little things. A Slightly better mg151, elevator that do not lock at 450 kph on bf109 and self sealing tanks on 190..


but look how much *@$$@!&¨¨(&#@! allies pilots put on this forum everyday complaining about everything. Of course.. some os these complains are fair.. but people like XXXXXXXXXXX expose it at such ridiculous ways that they loose all credbility. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah megile is right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

but erm u dint read my post at all ,I DID ask for better elevator and Mg151s READ again and ehm im 90% LW flying FW190s
why limit spitfire if they are using a historical setup while all those 109s flying with mk108s which didnt fight against fighters but were used agaisnt bombers
but its one way or the other because we cant choose a K4 with Mg151 or limit late war 109s by numbers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
01-13-2005, 05:50 PM
For you oldman locksup completely at 450 PLLLLEEEASE! Heres one at 900kmph and then still able to manuever fine with 1 missing elevator and 1 missing aileron.

How come my controls are not locked up completely at 450kmph like you say? and I have tested with many goodpilots who fly all sides with spit9 dive from 10,000m to 600-890 vs 109k4 elevator authority 600-890 and all 109gs + K4 have better elevator authority period. Only below 600 do the spits have better elevator authority but worse roll rate those speeds.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/quick0006.zip

you just probally go off one bnz you took on a lower speed spit which out turned you bigtime oldman and think the spit has better high speed elvator this forum is full of people like you no worries. KGr.HH are some of the best luft pilots in this game along with llvs 355thGR and jv44s.

This thread is just ment as a joke for oleg seeing the forums lately of all the unproven cries while some I agree with but not what you say oldman and many others in kurfursts thread which you all seem to agree on so much just like complaining about the spit on german forums everyone agrees with each other.

MEGILE
01-13-2005, 05:53 PM
The MK.108 is pretty uber.. heh, popping planes with them is awsome to do.
Boom! I don't know any other gun with which you can do that.

Realistic? I never shot a 30mm gun before, so I dunno.

How LW pilots can complain about the Spitfire IXe.. I don't know. Sure it looses little E in a turn, but the BF-109K4 has invisible Rocket Boosters on its tail for vertical climbs into the stratosphere.
The Spitfires energy retention in a turn should be of NO concern to a BF-109K4 pilot using correct zoom and boom tactics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The whining sounds like real life LW pilots who turned with the Spits. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

LeadSpitter_
01-13-2005, 06:14 PM
the shvaks are like that too but can do it at .80+ no decline at all in trajectory breaks planes apart tears wings off etc.

I;ve gotten kills with the 108 cannon at 1.4 but have to arc it like basketball and a huge luck factor same with the me262 u4 cannon sniping b17s across the map with huge arc shots but its so rare to hit at 2.5+

around .50m 108 cannon is pretty easy to get hits with becuase you can see the tracer rounds. shvaks is just starwars to me personally even tho it was a great cannon.

Check this boresighting range of the emil e7.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/e7boresighting.jpg


25 boost on p51 and spits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/spitclimb.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
01-14-2005, 12:53 AM
We were amused.

Yet another one of LS's speedtests http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ?

WOLFMondo
01-14-2005, 01:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Yeah those guys in 109s were getting annoying when we switched to blue shooting over our shoulders hitting us when we were on enemy planes, shooting the allied aircrafts after we finished them off when nothing left but a fuselage falling to the ground and they steal the kills a couple times from us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some 109 drivers are like some Spit drivers, they quite happily pull up in front of you when firing at another plane, they shoot a/c that the pilots bailed from, they shoot over your shoulder hit all and sundry and they sit behind bombers getting shot to bits hoping they will out last the bomber in the fight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
Allied planes still kick ars3 over 25,000FT. Its a shame most people don't capitalize on this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ta152 is the daddy at and over this height. Had a very good fight on WC yesterday with 7 others on comms, all '51's and '47's vs 5 Ta152's and it went upto 35,000ft. The only reason the Ta's got shot down was they came down to fight and lost there enery, other than that they were untouchable at that height.

Bring on the Spitfire XIV with its 44,000ft ceiling!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

carguy_
01-14-2005, 02:42 AM
The single fact that elevator virtually freezes from 500kph makes Me109 a non-uber aircraft.

LS is a classic example of hate-realistically-modelled-LW-planes-phobia.

OldMan____
01-14-2005, 03:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
For you oldman locksup completely at 450 PLLLLEEEASE! Heres one at 900kmph and then still able to manuever fine with 1 missing elevator and 1 missing aileron.

How come my controls are not locked up completely at 450kmph like you say? and I have tested with many goodpilots who fly all sides with spit9 dive from 10,000m to 600-890 vs 109k4 elevator authority 600-890 and all 109gs + K4 have better elevator authority period. Only below 600 do the spits have better elevator authority but worse roll rate those speeds.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/quick0006.zip

you just probally go off one bnz you took on a lower speed spit which out turned you bigtime oldman and think the spit has better high speed elvator this forum is full of people like you no worries. KGr.HH are some of the best luft pilots in this game along with llvs 355thGR and jv44s.

This thread is just ment as a joke for oleg seeing the forums lately of all the unproven cries while some I agree with but not what you say oldman and many others in kurfursts thread which you all seem to agree on so much just like complaining about the spit on german forums everyone agrees with each other. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need start learning how to read spitter.

Where sid I said. COMPLETELY locked? I said it locks at 450 kph.. so it means it start locking at that speed. No plane EVER lock controls completely. And NO I never had this problem with a spit lately( many months). But 109 is really innefective as BnZ.. and then people complain that all 109 drivers ony TnB while that was not done.. Simple because they CANNOT do otherwise safely. And also because I fly 190 almost all the time, since 109 is crapp to use in proper tatics of high speed.


Do not mix improper plane modeling wiht improper use in game. Mk108 was in war, and the guilty ones that they are not use historicaly are ALLIED plots.. that do not form up tons of bombers flights. We see almost only fighters.. so we shoot in fighters! What do you want? That we use only G6 planes? LOOOL so use only 43 planes too, simple as that. Ask for server admins to change the 44 setting to 43.

And It was made to do X does not mean it cannot do Y. Where do you think came the statement " only one shot was usually necessary to down a sinple engine fighter" ? We should also complain when allied pilots use .50 against bombers..

What is the problem in it can explode a plane with one shot one each 3 times? in RL it did that or at least crippled completely the target.


And about complaining. Not compleining about their planes. I was speajking about complaining about ENEMY planes. 3.02 era has a discussion on 190 turn at each 10 posts. Ladspitter has topics where he almost states that all LW fighters are too fast and all allied too slow. Even now he proved no one that he can reach 560 IAS on G6 at deck. That is WHINNING! Useless , not supported, ominidirectional statements against anything in enemy planes.

KGr.HH-Gotcha
01-14-2005, 04:15 AM
You will never ever get historical correct dogfight situations if you fly DOGFIGHT servers.

There's simply too many factors to consider.

If you enter a df room may it be War(p)clouds or F16 (which seems to be the default grade for packet loss in percent for all clients) you always meet extremes.

1) most Dogfioght maps are these crappy small 5 x 5 grid maps.
Which already is a laugh since you mostly can see the tracers on your airfield.
2)the amount of planes allowed by the host is a joke too. You can have something like 10 different planes per side.

So we have a small map which roughly translates into 500 x 500km and we have some 10 different kind of planes per side.

If we now take into considerations that most squadrons on the allied side were equipped with one plane this makes some 160 planes of historical densitiy (if we can call that so) on the allied side.

Now double it for blue side and you see that there's simply too many planetypes available to make it somewhat historical at all.

Next is the objective of the mission, which is either "bash'em'up" or "get bashed in the process of destroying alibi targets put in for some strange reasons since it's easier to shoot all enemies then fulfill the ground objectives".
Which makes bombers and gorund pounders even less attractive.

Finally there's a flaw in almost every plane in this game7sim.
For sake of simplicity we say that the average pilot will have about three curses ready when he gest shot down, most starting with "The overmodelled XYZ".
Let's say you say
Plane X is faster than it should
Plane Y turns to good
Plane Z takes too much DM.

the more planes you allow on the server the more such factors will add up and spoil the "fun" (since historical and realistic is already out...)

Now you can adjust on one or two of these factors but in the end a combination of all these will make you frustrated in a way.

Be it, that you spot 12 TA152 flying cap over houffalize, or for the third time you start dogfighting a p47, get bounced by a p51, witness a spitfire HF coming to h is help and get raped by some Lightning.

So if you guys at any given time want some more or less historical dogfights you should stop joining such servers. they're built for pure entertainment and wont resemble any historical accuracy.
If you're then demanding realistic situations it's next to impossible.

As a feature I'd gladly like to have a slider to control how many planes of given type are allowed in the air simultanously.
You can control it roughly by the airfield slider but it's not good enough.

In any other case it will be axactly like that.
A will caim that there's to many Spit IX, while B will claim that there's simply to many pilots flying with mk108s (which i can't blame since it's a cool way to calm down. after all it's pure peace you deliver...*grin)

Anything else is just a claim which holds no big truth.
The claim that it's difficult to down enemies in a d9 is more difficult than in an a9 is, as I think, unholdable (spelling right ?).
I've downed more spits and p47s in an F8 then i can recall and I think if we talk of difficult dogfights......
The d9 is such a beauty to fly. Fast and a solid punch.
I think that the mks are over-used but so are IX HFs or enter your arch-enemy here and half of the planes on the dogfights servers.
I think I've already seen more in the time since AEP then were ever produced in the whole war.

You should just keep in mind that as soon as you enter a DOGFIGHT server, historical accuracy is left out of the game by clicking "JOIN"....

!S! to you all, and happy hunting

OldMan____
01-14-2005, 04:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Gotcha:
You will never ever get historical correct dogfight situations if you fly DOGFIGHT servers.

There's simply too many factors to consider.

If you enter a df room may it be War(p)clouds or F16 (which seems to be the default grade for packet loss in percent for all clients) you always meet extremes.

1) most Dogfioght maps are these crappy small 5 x 5 grid maps.
Which already is a laugh since you mostly can see the tracers on your airfield.
2)the amount of planes allowed by the host is a joke too. You can have something like 10 different planes per side.

So we have a small map which roughly translates into 500 x 500km and we have some 10 different kind of planes per side.

If we now take into considerations that most squadrons on the allied side were equipped with one plane this makes some 160 planes of historical densitiy (if we can call that so) on the allied side.

Now double it for blue side and you see that there's simply too many planetypes available to make it somewhat historical at all.

Next is the objective of the mission, which is either "bash'em'up" or "get bashed in the process of destroying alibi targets put in for some strange reasons since it's easier to shoot all enemies then fulfill the ground objectives".
Which makes bombers and gorund pounders even less attractive.

Finally there's a flaw in almost every plane in this game7sim.
For sake of simplicity we say that the average pilot will have about three curses ready when he gest shot down, most starting with "The overmodelled XYZ".
Let's say you say
Plane X is faster than it should
Plane Y turns to good
Plane Z takes too much DM.

the more planes you allow on the server the more such factors will add up and spoil the "fun" (since historical and realistic is already out...)

Now you can adjust on one or two of these factors but in the end a combination of all these will make you frustrated in a way.

Be it, that you spot 12 TA152 flying cap over houffalize, or for the third time you start dogfighting a p47, get bounced by a p51, witness a spitfire HF coming to h is help and get raped by some Lightning.

So if you guys at any given time want some more or less historical dogfights you should stop joining such servers. they're built for pure entertainment and wont resemble any historical accuracy.
If you're then demanding realistic situations it's next to impossible.

As a feature I'd gladly like to have a slider to control how many planes of given type are allowed in the air simultanously.
You can control it roughly by the airfield slider but it's not good enough.

In any other case it will be axactly like that.
A will caim that there's to many Spit IX, while B will claim that there's simply to many pilots flying with mk108s (which i can't blame since it's a cool way to calm down. after all it's pure peace you deliver...*grin)

Anything else is just a claim which holds no big truth.
The claim that it's difficult to down enemies in a d9 is more difficult than in an a9 is, as I think, unholdable (spelling right ?).
I've downed more spits and p47s in an F8 then i can recall and I think if we talk of difficult dogfights......
The d9 is such a beauty to fly. Fast and a solid punch.
I think that the mks are over-used but so are IX HFs or enter your arch-enemy here and half of the planes on the dogfights servers.
I think I've already seen more in the time since AEP then were ever produced in the whole war.

You should just keep in mind that as soon as you enter a DOGFIGHT server, historical accuracy is left out of the game by clicking "JOIN"....

!S! to you all, and happy hunting <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly!! You cannot say limit Mk108 because they are being use unhistoricaly.. since ALMOST EVERYTHING in DF servers is not used historcaly. Unfortunalety there is no VWF anymore... there we had hope of historical like games.

Tvrdi
01-14-2005, 04:59 AM
I fly equaly for both sides (from the first release of the sim)...Bfs are ok now....thers wrong FM in other planes like P38, Bf110 etc...I have the same sucess with USAAF and LW....Bfs couldnt outturn 80% of the fighters(in RL and in sim)...u know that if u fly them often and u dont it seams...but who told u that they wer so bad turners????? its common opinion on this forum based on which data???? some versions of the Bf were good and some of them worst turners than their oponents....the question is at low speeds or higher speeds....also Bfs are less maneuverable above particular speed just how it was in RL...MK108 were strong cannons also in RL and in the game and its really hard to hit something for average pilot (sometimes even for vets) TRY IT REALLY!....MGS....these u know,...a 100 times spoken that they are porked in some way (20mm should result in more punch)....so ur cinical here or what? its really annoying to see so many one-side whinners (for red or blue)..whinne if u have some real argument with documentation and not only for one side....be honest here...act like a true sim fan..please

no hard feelings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cheers

p1ngu666
01-14-2005, 05:09 AM
its funny when 109 say spit IX is uber, specialy those who fly the k4, and use manual prop pitch (yep takes skill to use manual pitch, but u can overrev engine to 3000ish (400rpm extra) and gain in climb/acceloration, turn, and u can kill engine to get better turn.
i tested side by side with the best manual pitch k4 driver (me in auto k4). so they climb better than the real one did at some alts already, and then u can give it a decent boost ontop http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

spit IX is a 43 plane, there where tons in service (even in russia http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) and its acceloration/energy retention isnt that uber for me. also btw, by the time of mw50 equiped 109's, the spits/p51's where on 25lb boost for merlins, and there was XIV (some on 21 lb boost or perhaps a few on 25lb boost)

25lb boost would slash the lw advantage considerably and in some cases execede the lw, and thats just on the merlin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

its low/medium alt increase, high alt is unchanged basicaly, but thats not where spits/p51's have there biggest trouble isit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

btw the picture is most deffinatly funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

p1ngu666
01-14-2005, 05:12 AM
i find the cannons on the il2 (not the 37mm, the 23mm) harder to hit with, specialy as the plane has horrible yaw stability

BSA 650
01-14-2005, 06:11 AM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Germans are the fun factor in the game!
see Call of Duty or Medal of Honor!
yes it is a Game not historic, have fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LeadSpitter_
01-14-2005, 06:22 AM
I just dont get how oldman thinks how he does. The 109 is perfect for bnz even at 890, 900kmph exactly is when one aileron and elevator tab pop off as shown in the track and you see I can easily still manuever around better then most ac at that speed, its very very capable of lining up bnz attack and even adjusting path of bnz at 890kmph.

I just want to hear oldman admit he's wrong but doubt it will happen. As for the g6 doing 560 I sent the track to a few friends along with a text of how to achieve it in manual and they know its possible now no need in teaching everyone.

learn to fly in manual same rpms as auto but one pitch up for higher revs then auto = more speed and one lower for dives which makes you accelarate faster and bleed less speed with lower pitch.

Dont worry we will have to learn all the ac all over again next patch im sure and how to get thier top speeds with different rad trottle and pitch settings.

p1ngu666
01-14-2005, 06:24 AM
i tried g6 on manual a day or two ago and i did get 560 at slish, just

maybe oleg will fix the exploit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

MEGILE
01-14-2005, 06:53 AM
25 boost on p51 and spits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/spitclimb.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ta152 is the daddy at and over this height <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes no doubt, fortunatly we don't have 20 TA-152 pilots on Warclouds climbing up to 40,000FT... then the reds would be screwed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by KGr.HH-Gotcha:
You will never ever get historical correct dogfight situations if you fly DOGFIGHT servers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutly correct. High altitude flying rarely happens on dogfight servers... but it does. And when it does, it is the best fighting, and dare I say most realistic fighting you can do in the sim.

carguy_
01-14-2005, 07:06 AM
Maybe LW refers to trimmed ME109 high speed attack,this would do it,the elevator is not so stiff then.However if you don`t trimm it while diving you won`t be able to pull much Gs not more than 2.

LS if you think Me109 particulary after the patch is perfoect for B&Z send us a track if you canhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
01-14-2005, 07:16 AM
Hi,

"unproven whines..."

Is that like the track that never appeared to support the '109 is too fast' crying?

If there is little whining coming from the allied players overall then they must have it good. You can add the 'my wings fall off my mustang" to the list of outstanding complaints, though...even though it was known to shed wings.

I'd just be interested in a consistent 151/20 (for example, i don't firing 4x20mms into a B25 wing root for 3 seconds at 100m which results in just smoke from the inside of the engine cowling one time, then destroying chopping the wing off a P47 with 1 visible hit another time to be particularly realisic) that bore some relationship to how it should stack up against the hispano and for the 190 not to run out of fuel with the old brown smoke fuel leak gag which is very tiresome for a supposedly rugged aircraft.

Cheers,
norris

LeadSpitter_
01-14-2005, 08:10 AM
NorrisMcWhirter well that thredd was locked in one day and noticed when i went back to post it.

Still you need a couple things devicelink udpspeed and basic knowlegde of cem things not many posters in this forum have.

After the 1 day thread lock I realized why post it and teach you all how to achieve that speed if you cant figure it out yourself. It defeats the purpose of learning the game wheres the fun in that learning each aircrafts abilities on your own.

I sent it to a few people and thats all that matters to me some could do it some couldnt.

Seems everyone is here just to argue and gets tiresome proving them wrong day in day out where it just does not matter to me anymore.

I miss alot of the people who use to post here daily since sturmovik. go checkout www.simhq.com (http://www.simhq.com) norris and you will learn somethings also www.airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com) will teach you alot.

Also what name do you fly under on HL norris i have never seen your forum name there.

also why do you bash that thread which had 8 posts 6 of the germans then gets locked in a couple hours, makes no sense at all.

what about robban75 3.03m tests mustang doing 580kmph on crimea 100 fuel SL i certainly dont get that speed and asked for tracks of his tests which he did not provide but his thread was not locked.

Some of his other tests i get same numbers 570 in the 190a6 sl crimea 100 fuel.

a6 570kmph
a8 580kmph
a9 580kmph
f8 580kmph.

then look at real data charts of p38j p47d and p51d vs the 190a8 speed SL.

why my thread got locked of 109g6 and 190a8 being to fast i dunno maybe one of you complained to ivan to lock and he did. I did not complain about robban75s crimea speed tests and also asked for tracks of the mustang doing 580 sl crimea 100 fuel at 10m the thredd is still not locked and i dont think it should be either should mine.

jurinko
01-14-2005, 08:21 AM
Whinespitter, if you can outturn 80% of allied machines in 190, hats down. Do not mess 109s and 190s together please. What happened, get your aZZ kicked online or what?

LeadSpitter_
01-14-2005, 08:29 AM
ask oleg who the true whiners are.

Hetzer_II
01-14-2005, 08:35 AM
Ls, you can shoot down this amount of aircrafts with almost every plane...

Yesterday i´ve flown Spit mkVIII on warclouds and get 4 109 and 1 190 in one flight.... the next flight 2 190 and 1 109. If we are talking about uber planes than lets do it on all sides....

Later i shoot down 2 109 and 1 190 in Spit IX.. you just have to know your plane i had no problem vs 109 or 190....

XyZspineZyX
01-14-2005, 09:30 AM
I think the whining is overmodelled in this game

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

S.taibanzai
01-14-2005, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
ask oleg who the true whiners are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


he replied on that manny months ago

USA WHINERS ARE THE BIGGEST WHINERS

so that includes you Leadspitter

carguy_
01-14-2005, 09:42 AM
One thing is ppl who base their BS on DF servers should be ignored.

After this thread I lost any interest in reading your posts Leadspitter.

WOLFMondo
01-14-2005, 09:44 AM
Lol.

LS and Norris, Get a roomhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

PraetorHonoris
01-14-2005, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
ask oleg who the true whiners are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg Maddox:
"Percentage of the US whinnes is way greater than German whinnes...." - 01.07.2004, €žCheating Stops right here€œ

crazyivan1970
01-14-2005, 10:42 AM
all i can say is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , really.

BlackStar2000
01-14-2005, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
ask oleg who the true whiners are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg Maddox:
"Percentage of the US whinnes is way greater than German whinnes...." - 01.07.2004, €žCheating Stops right here€œ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LeadSpitter_
CAN YOU READ IT!!!http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

MEGILE
01-14-2005, 11:59 AM
It's the one-sided whiners out in force again.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Eagle_361st
01-14-2005, 12:04 PM
Oh boy I usually stay right out of these FUBAR discussions. But, being a P-47 driver and one who tends to fly their aircraft historically and correctly. I can say that I have witnessed the best of the LW pilots flying 109's at above 500 to even as high as 800 Kph with no problems with elevator authority. Am I an expert on the 109? No! But I do know what I see when chasing them or being chased by them.

MEGILE
01-14-2005, 12:09 PM
Sorry Eagle, but people will say that your argument is flawed.. because you could not know the precise energy state of your enemy.

Eagle_361st
01-14-2005, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
Sorry Eagle, but people will say that your argument is flawed.. because you could not know the precise energy state of your enemy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How could I not? Either I am chasing them in a dive, or they are chasing me in a dive. I say that at 500+ Kph their energy state is pretty dam good. Eh? BTW I am not being a wiseass, I just think that the 109 is as good as it should be. But again I say that I am not an "expert" on the issue, just offering my opinion.

Wolf-Strike
01-14-2005, 12:27 PM
I agree with Leadspiter.I also have notided they pull out of dives with me at high speeds...most likely trim cheat.But what reaslly bugs me is when I go down into a turn fight with a 109 in my spit.I just go in circles until the 109 waxes me.190 I can outturn but 109's will end up in a turn fight that eventually has the 109 right on my six taking pop shots with the mk108.

This just doesnt seem right to me but then again the sim is way off so what can I expect.109K4 outturning me is hilarious even when i try the faster turn approach.I thought that a spit had great low speed characteristics but she seems very prone stall at low speeds.

NVP1
01-14-2005, 12:42 PM
Is this the official Allies whining thread?Then would someone please at least make a single try to back up his claims without going into his "feelings" and "personal impressions" ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif

NVP1
01-14-2005, 12:50 PM
http://uploads.bestupload.com/redir/60592.jpg
LS, take a look at the sealevel speed of the 190A8
-the one in brackets, with WEP and increased manifold pressure.
(edited: picture size)

Eagle_361st
01-14-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NVP1:
Is this the official Allies whining thread?Then would someone please at least make a single try to back up his claims without going into his "feelings" and "personal impressions" ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok I can do that, but first I would like to hear from regular and good 109 drivers. I would like to see what they think of this, I could care less what the self proclaimed experts say. It's funny how you never see any of them online flying, they are always here b1tching about FM's and DM's. I am all for fixing somehting that is not right, no matter what side it is for. But some of these claims, and that includes Allied claims as well are just not right. If you want to discuss history and the reality of this game and how well it compares, bust out YOUR proof and I will show you mine. But I can tell you from 3 years of online flying and fighting experience the 109 will indeed have all the elevator authority it is supposed to have and even more that it should at speeds above 600 Kph. I have seen many good 109 pilots do amazing things at high speeds while being chased by me in my Jug. So I would say that it comes down to the pilot and knowing his rig and what it can do, more than nerfed FM's and the such.

*EDIT* I see your chart, but I was unaware that we were discussing FW 190 speed. I thought this has been addressed? As for the 109, I would be more than happy to get online with some of the "old hands" in the 109 and show that they are doing exactly what I am talking about.

NVP1
01-14-2005, 01:18 PM
Eagle_361st, I personally just don't see the reason to open up a thread which has no sense in it-that's what this thread is actually about.The original message of LS's post is"Let's whine against the whine ..."...so childish, it turns this forum into a kindergarten. Kurfy was able to present some information in his statement, whether it is of any interest or not is another matter and is not up to us to decide, that's the developers' job.
The usual approach LS uses in his topics: "Oleg/Mommy/Daddy ,the Axis crafts are so superb,i'm so good in them and bring home scalps
of the poor Allied pilots by hundreds, please change it"....

Eagle_361st
01-14-2005, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NVP1:
Eagle_361st, I personally just don't see the reason to open up a thread which has no sense in it-that's what this thread is actually about.The original message of LS's post is"Let's whine against the whine ..."...so childish, it turns this forum into a kindergarten. Kurfy was able to present some information in his statement, whether it is of any interest or not is another matter and is not up to us to decide, that's the developers' job.
The usual approach LS uses in his topics: "Oleg/Mommy/Daddy ,the Axis crafts are so superb,i'm so good in them and bring home scalps
of the poor Allied pilots by hundreds, please change it"....
Proof? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you were addressing me. As for the statement about this thread, well I thought it was kinda funny. But then again, these endless debates about this and that is what keeps me from posting here that much. I just thought I would throw my 2 cents in about the elevator authority of the 109 and what I have seen for over three years.

BBB_Hyperion
01-14-2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Changes in US weapon wasn't for P-38 But for US MGs class of weapon. Sorry , but its not about dispercion but about recoil.... Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it. Sorry I'm tired of some stupid people that even can't read with attention the docs that they sent me that to say that we are wrong when these docs just confirm what we model...

We give the best effience of elevator on High speed for P-51, but people say that we model incorrect G-loading.... But to think with the school physics experience that they are doing themselves greater loading just becasue of this effiency of elevator - they don't!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

p1ngu666
01-14-2005, 02:16 PM
elite 109 drivers use trim and manual pitch and can do some wacky things

109 has become or is nearly ufo now... in the l33t drivers it IS a ufo. u can often spot a 109 driver winding on the trim by a porpising movement before he then bat turns. using the trim and manual pitch they can pull turns easily tighter than a spit (which stalls out for me often) at all speed ranges.

using these exploits especialy pitch is dodgy, then alot of them say spit is ufo, it performs to spec far as i can see, average e bleed too.

it botheres me that 2 planes 109 and 110 can be boosted to unhistoric levels that u cant do in any other plane. it does take skill and it is risky, but i cant do that in my spit/yak/p38/he111/stuka/il2 etc

i bet 109 fliers are doing better onwhine than they where a few patches ago, and i doubt its cos all the lw fliers learnt to fly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

NVP1
01-14-2005, 02:37 PM
And what exactly prevnts you from using trim in your "spit/yak/p38/he111/stuka/il2 etc"? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

NVP1
01-14-2005, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eagle_361st:
*EDIT* I see your chart, but I was unaware that we were discussing FW 190 speed. I thought this has been addressed? As for the 109, I would be more than happy to get online with some of the "old hands" in the 109 and show that they are doing exactly what I am talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LS was discussing it,not me.He finds 580km/h for an A8 as wrong.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
then look at real data charts of p38j p47d and p51d vs the 190a8 speed SL.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

crazyivan1970
01-14-2005, 02:50 PM
p1, please don`t make me laugh. I assumed you were a serious fellow, but appears that you not. This thread is about nothing, really. I don`t see any point in it except the fact that some individuals can`t deal with german aircraft and ready to stand on their head just to tone it down. Deal with it, just like us, dedicated 109 jocks delt with muzzle flash, like we delt with 12 30mm rounds to down fighter, like we delt with and dealing with Spitfires and bunch of other planes that can do "pretty crazy" stuff. But if you complain... bring the facts to the table... and never forget the fact, that most of those who can do crazy stuff in 109s and other AC have thousends of hours of stick time and know their birds in and out and they went with them thru good and bad times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Untill there is no facts, tracks and hard data... it just a useless rant, simple as that.

Just my 02c

faustnik
01-14-2005, 03:29 PM
I hate to see this kind of garbage in ORR. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

TX-Zen
01-14-2005, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
elite 109 drivers use trim and manual pitch and can do some wacky things

109 has become or is nearly ufo now... in the l33t drivers it IS a ufo. u can often spot a 109 driver winding on the trim by a porpising movement before he then bat turns. using the trim and manual pitch they can pull turns easily tighter than a spit (which stalls out for me often) at all speed ranges.

using these exploits especialy pitch is dodgy, then alot of them say spit is ufo, it performs to spec far as i can see, average e bleed too.

it botheres me that 2 planes 109 and 110 can be boosted to unhistoric levels that u cant do in any other plane. it does take skill and it is risky, but i cant do that in my spit/yak/p38/he111/stuka/il2 etc

i bet 109 fliers are doing better onwhine than they where a few patches ago, and i doubt its cos all the lw fliers learnt to fly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why I don't like trim in the game the way its presented, and never have. Too much gaming the game ruins the immersion and allows for abnormal aircraft exploitation. Remember IL2 original? I've been flying it lately and the trim is simply insane. It looks like we have some of that still going on in PF even after all these years which is too bad.

I'm all for the concept of knowing your aircraft to get the most out of it, but there really isn't enough CEM implemented to make it worthwhile and the majority of planes in this game are simply point and shoot without requiring anything special to fly. Trim was important in real life, but here in the sim it's more toward the abused side and is too easy to exploit so it would be better imho to limit it or change the way its used. Being ablt to make bat turns with it is not my personal idea of knowing your aircraft to get the most out of it. It's a gamers exploit.

carguy_
01-14-2005, 04:19 PM
I`d like to point out that my attitude is same like TX-Zen is.

I always felt guilty in G6late when I could pull up to 4G@600kph.No more of this-actually got the plane more interesting.

Finally I say that because of the whines the Me109 is one of the most accurately modelled planes in the game.It does stall a bit too much and fuel consumption is off.

p1ngu666
01-14-2005, 08:30 PM
u can use trim in most planes, i do for level flight, or prolonged turning fights, i have it on kb buttons, and no back to default trim. some ppl wind on vast amounts of trim and can bat turn your better highspeed elivator plane, its probably mostly 109 fliers who do that, or the ones who do abuse trim, cos u dont need to use trim to get 190 to turn at highspeed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. not all 109 fliers abuse trim ofcourse

109 is more stable than other similer planes by a large amount, tip stalling is wrong for most planes, but thats what we got in fb

ivan yeah, but with manual pitch in 109 u get non historic performance, BETTER performance, better accell and climb, and it can drag the plane round better in a turn.

i can deal with it just, but when a plane easly outflies yours in all ways, and has a mk108 its hard.

zen i agree on knowing your plane stuff, but on a CPS plane, u cant excede the performance thats correct (assuming oleg got it right ofcourse). 109 has X performance, and it reaches its proper performance in auto far as i know (k4 climbs better at some alts, g6 maybe pants) now a 109 jock can overrev his engine to get X+y (y being performance increase).

now fly any other plane apart from 109/110 and u cant do that. your stuck at historic (if oleg got it right) performance. lw whined like mad at IX being abit to fast at high alt, few fight that high anyways, i went up that high once or twice while it was too fast up high, and i never went flat out. perhaps oleg should just lock 109 in auto mode. im sure lots of whines would crop up claiming they use manual pitch to cruise and save fuel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

anyways if it locked in auto, they would stop frying there engines by accident http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and im not after 109 being porked, just limited to historic performance like every other plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-14-2005, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Changes in US weapon wasn't for P-38 But for US MGs class of weapon. Sorry , but its not about dispercion but about recoil.... Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it. Sorry I'm tired of some stupid people that even can't read with attention the docs that they sent me that to say that we are wrong when these docs just confirm what we model...

We give the best effience of elevator on High speed for P-51, but people say that we model incorrect G-loading.... But to think with the school physics experience that they are doing themselves greater loading just becasue of this effiency of elevator - they don't!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes right.

--&gt; It was the recoil that made the tests from grounded planes with .50's spread
more than others because the newer plane models have landing legs with shocks modelled
while the older plane models do not, the newer ones shake more.

Which really does not explain why .50 fire from P-39 spreads the same as P-38, just for one.
How new is P-39 model?

--&gt; It is about MG's mounted on engine mass has less recoil effect.

Which does not explain Buffalo .50's having identical spread as P-38 and P-39, all with
different mounts and all with matching spread pattern.

Recoil -- Dispersion. Word games. Look at results.

How much is the fire supposed to spread no matter the cause???
Results should be 8 mils for the .50's of the manual, not 18+.

Grounded plane gun tests of German planes are known just as with US. Say the results
match the sim tests made. Say the .50's grounded plane gun tests/alignment results are
so many times wider spread than German and Russian grounded plane gun tests results?

Want to model recoil effects the same way for much heavier 20mm guns in wings? Shells
with how many mils wide for that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But AFTER the top quote came out, then there was more debate and arguement. The top
quote was from the time of leaked beta 2.02. The top quote is not something I have
seen repeated since 2.02, which if it was then =that= would be quoted, but still brought
up or referred to like new.

.50's still are not as tight as other HMG's.
Someone, anyone, care to show historic where .50 fire from Buffalo, P-38 and P-39 did
spread so wide as in 2.0? Not why you think it should, that it did?

BBB_Hyperion
01-14-2005, 11:22 PM
In the 109 it was possible to switch from auto to manual mode like on 190 nothing unhistorical here . The idea to have it on auto is to allow the pilot time for other tasks and endure the engine lifetime , reduce room for errors. But the full performance can only be exspected on manual only auto values are given so i would like to see how you can measure unhistorical performance on manual when no data is there ? If have no doubt manual is the type with higher results but you can set it to pretty ineffective values too. Like the Automatic Gear in Cars its just too slow and dont uses the real limits a manual gear allows. Flying at the absolute limits is only possible on manual except maybe for dive.

For the trim we need to remember that on 190 or 109 the complete stabilizer is moving up or down what changes the aoa of the stabilizer and additional the relative to plane movement of the high rudder increases to the direction of trim.

The high speed behaviar was always suspect for me in general as there is no limit for acceleration and drag doesnt slow down acceleration and deacceleration effects when reaching lower alts are not noticeable. But thats for all planes. The 15 g limit for all planes is very unfair concerning the individual designs of the planes and g load for breaking wings irl can be exspected much lower on some crafts represented but then the whining would really start. I doubt such pullouts p51 or k4 etc can do now would be possible then. So it would be possible to fly such manouevers as we see em for pullout, you can try but be sure that the wings are still on after the stunt you need to slow down or reduce g load in flater turn.

TX-Zen
01-15-2005, 01:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
zen i agree on knowing your plane stuff, but on a CPS plane, u cant excede the performance thats correct (assuming oleg got it right ofcourse). 109 has X performance, and it reaches its proper performance in auto far as i know (k4 climbs better at some alts, g6 maybe pants) now a 109 jock can overrev his engine to get X+y (y being performance increase). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats another of my minor grips, CSP props generally perform their best at 100% and very little or no hands on is required for maximum performance. What this effectively means is that CSP are just as simple to use as planes with automatic engine controls...this simplicity runs contrary to my understanding of WW2 prop planes which required some level of prop and engine control use to get good results with. One of the advantages of an automatic system is that it really does do the work for the pilot, which in theory allows him to concentrate more on the fight rather than flying.

Again we don't have a complex enough CEM implemented to make this difference noticeable, but when CEM is actually used it tends to give unhistoric or somewhat unrealistic performance increases for certain planes. The 109 may be one of them and so might the P51 lately. This is another thing I don't like about CEM...its generally too easy to leave it alone for CSPs and still get factory level performance but when you do mess with it, some planes get too much of a boost.

I can tell you from real life tank driving experience that driving an automatic transmission is a hell of a lot easier than driving a manual transmission, even though the manual is technically very simple it still requires dedicated thought to achieve best performance...and things like that make a significant difference under combat conditions. I don't say that tanks and planes are the same by any means, but I do mention it because the concept for both is the same, which is to ease the work load on the end user.

What I'd rather see is probably no CEM at all (which makes more sense in our current game code) or ideally one that requires a pilot to have to adjust things in a manner closer to real life accounts. I don't say this in particular because it will benefit the 190, but if the sim strives for realism then CEM shouldn't be partially done...it should be as accurate as possible or it should be left alone. Same goes for trim.

I for one enjoy flying planes that require some degree of skill or understanding to master and a better CEM would float my boat. What I like most about the sim is the attention to detail it has and that it strives for realism. In this regard I wish CEM really was a bit more complex. I like to tinker with things, do testing and try to find out what planes can and can't do and don't mind if a plane is difficult to fly, so extra CEM appeals to me.

This is why I love the 190 so much, because while its definately hands off in the CEM department, the entire FM is complex but does reward mastery. I honestly can't say that about most CSP planes, they are to me simply point and shoot...once you understand energy there is nothing else needed to handle them imho. And that runs contrary to my understanding of history.

p1ngu666
01-15-2005, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
In the 109 it was possible to switch from auto to manual mode like on 190 nothing unhistorical here . The idea to have it on auto is to allow the pilot time for other tasks and endure the engine lifetime , reduce room for errors. But the full performance can only be exspected on manual only auto values are given so i would like to see how you can measure unhistorical performance on manual when no data is there ? If have no doubt manual is the type with higher results but you can set it to pretty ineffective values too. Like the Automatic Gear in Cars its just too slow and dont uses the real limits a manual gear allows. Flying at the absolute limits is only possible on manual except maybe for dive.

For the trim we need to remember that on 190 or 109 the complete stabilizer is moving up or down what changes the aoa of the stabilizer and additional the relative to plane movement of the high rudder increases to the direction of trim.

The high speed behaviar was always suspect for me in general as there is no limit for acceleration and drag doesnt slow down acceleration and deacceleration effects when reaching lower alts are not noticeable. But thats for all planes. The 15 g limit for all planes is very unfair concerning the individual designs of the planes and g load for breaking wings irl can be exspected much lower on some crafts represented but then the whining would really start. I doubt such pullouts p51 or k4 etc can do now would be possible then. So it would be possible to fly such manouevers as we see em for pullout, you can try but be sure that the wings are still on after the stunt you need to slow down or reduce g load in flater turn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hyperion i know it could switch from manual to auto and back again. far as i know all performance data is for auto setting, and all pilots flew in combat with auto far as i know. u can get a extra 400rpm on a k4 and thats at the edge, thats a large improvement considering its normal rpm is 2600 max. the performance comes from the over rev.

zen i partly agree, cps planes the prop pitch basicaly sets rpm of the engine, and lower revs gives better fuel economy (low rpm high boost relitive to rpm for lanc for best fuel economy)

also u want to look after your engine so u dont run it at 3000rpm all the time. now ingame we fly like we stole it really, 3000rpm and full boost will give u best performance 99% of the time.

also on most allied planes with cps props, the throttle and pitch are next to each other, far easier to play around with than ingame where i have throttle on a slider, and pitch as y and u on the keyboard, so a real pilot can balance the two far easier than i can. also i16 pilot said they used lower pitch in cruise, but for combat fine pitch and just use throttle http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

also pitch/throttle juggling would be mostly for non full bannana stuff, while we use full bannana far more than pilots did.
cps for the pilot is pretty easy, fine pitch for full power, lower pitch for cruise and engine life, its just hard to explain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

the prop pitch on 109 however requires constant attention if your in manual, thats why it had a auto mode, how many pilots would over rev there engines by accident, with damage varing from slight to complete failure, cps adusts blade angle to keep engine at target revs.

imo if germans could have taken the extra rpm and u get a performance increase, they would have set the engines to use higher rpm's. these plane engines are big things tho, and for higher rpm u increase the stress on the engine proportionaly more than the actual rpm increase. the g forces on the pistons and cams would increase, the block would twist more. u can make them stronger, but then the strain of extra weight will start breaking something else.

it bothers me that manual pitch can give the 109 more performance, than a 109 u would meet in combat in ww2, hence unhistorical. (assuming correct modeling) any other plane ingame is stuck at historic performance (assuming its modeled correctly ingame)

imo using teh manual pitch is abit like saying "ill fly a la5fn" and turning up in a la7

HayateAce
01-15-2005, 03:21 AM
Good points.

The later G and K model 109s have gone so far now, they are just silly. 1C has lost all control over these 109s.

http://www.peoplefriendlyplaces.com/decor/images/tiger.gif

carguy_
01-15-2005, 04:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pingu:
it bothers me that manual pitch can give the 109 more performance, than a 109 u would meet in combat in ww2, hence unhistorical. (assuming correct modeling) any other plane ingame is stuck at historic performance (assuming its modeled correctly ingame)

imo using teh manual pitch is abit like saying "ill fly a la5fn" and turning up in a la7 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously,hats off to you if you can make a good use of manual pitch on the Me109.It is known in this game manual pp gives 15% more power frankly before it was so hardly restricted planes like G10 and K4 flew like rockets and could climb away with a big margin.

Earlier you could go up to 3200rpm and not cook the engine but it was being very stressed at this rpm so engine overheat came a little bit later than mw50 but faster than say at 2900rpm.
Now it is so hard that if you go more than one time above 3000rpm the engine dies instantly.I have lost my plane 4times in a row because of it and I don`t use manual pp since 2.04.

Most Me109 pilots also lost interest in it.IMO it is fair now,the pilot who is able to manage the engine up to the very highest limit without killing it makes a trick that is barely made by anyone now so the max performance is worth the risk for him.

Point:Nobody uses it,so why brag about it?

Fehler
01-15-2005, 04:41 AM
I noticed that when I am flying online, I cant hit pause and go get a beer. What's up with that?!?

I also noticed that the older I get the more hair grows on my ears! What's up with THAT!

I am glad that my in-grown toe nail is finally healed. It really hurt to walk for a while there... What's up with that?

And finally, I want to share with all of you that being a great looking guy (Which I am) is really a curse. All those ugly husbands getting jealous of me, and so many people wanting to be like me... whats up with that?

(Hey I just wanted to throw in some garbage too you know) Whats up with that?!?

Tvrdi
01-15-2005, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
In the 109 it was possible to switch from auto to manual mode like on 190 nothing unhistorical here . The idea to have it on auto is to allow the pilot time for other tasks and endure the engine lifetime , reduce room for errors. But the full performance can only be exspected on manual only auto values are given so i would like to see how you can measure unhistorical performance on manual when no data is there ? If have no doubt manual is the type with higher results but you can set it to pretty ineffective values too. Like the Automatic Gear in Cars its just too slow and dont uses the real limits a manual gear allows. Flying at the absolute limits is only possible on manual except maybe for dive.

For the trim we need to remember that on 190 or 109 the complete stabilizer is moving up or down what changes the aoa of the stabilizer and additional the relative to plane movement of the high rudder increases to the direction of trim.

The high speed behaviar was always suspect for me in general as there is no limit for acceleration and drag doesnt slow down acceleration and deacceleration effects when reaching lower alts are not noticeable. But thats for all planes. The 15 g limit for all planes is very unfair concerning the individual designs of the planes and g load for breaking wings irl can be exspected much lower on some crafts represented but then the whining would really start. I doubt such pullouts p51 or k4 etc can do now would be possible then. So it would be possible to fly such manouevers as we see em for pullout, you can try but be sure that the wings are still on after the stunt you need to slow down or reduce g load in flater turn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hyperion i know it could switch from manual to auto and back again. far as i know all performance data is for auto setting, and all pilots flew in combat with auto far as i know. u can get a extra 400rpm on a k4 and thats at the edge, thats a large improvement considering its normal rpm is 2600 max. the performance comes from the over rev.

zen i partly agree, cps planes the prop pitch basicaly sets rpm of the engine, and lower revs gives better fuel economy (low rpm high boost relitive to rpm for lanc for best fuel economy)

also u want to look after your engine so u dont run it at 3000rpm all the time. now ingame we fly like we stole it really, 3000rpm and full boost will give u best performance 99% of the time.

also on most allied planes with cps props, the throttle and pitch are next to each other, far easier to play around with than ingame where i have throttle on a slider, and pitch as y and u on the keyboard, so a real pilot can balance the two far easier than i can. also i16 pilot said they used lower pitch in cruise, but for combat fine pitch and just use throttle http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

also pitch/throttle juggling would be mostly for non full bannana stuff, while we use full bannana far more than pilots did.
cps for the pilot is pretty easy, fine pitch for full power, lower pitch for cruise and engine life, its just hard to explain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

the prop pitch on 109 however requires constant attention if your in manual, thats why it had a auto mode, how many pilots would over rev there engines by accident, with damage varing from slight to complete failure, cps adusts blade angle to keep engine at target revs.

imo if germans could have taken the extra rpm and u get a performance increase, they would have set the engines to use higher rpm's. these plane engines are big things tho, and for higher rpm u increase the stress on the engine proportionaly more than the actual rpm increase. the g forces on the pistons and cams would increase, the block would twist more. u can make them stronger, but then the strain of extra weight will start breaking something else.

it bothers me that manual pitch can give the 109 more performance, than a 109 u would meet in combat in ww2, hence unhistorical. (assuming correct modeling) any other plane ingame is stuck at historic performance (assuming its modeled correctly ingame)

imo using teh manual pitch is abit like saying "ill fly a la5fn" and turning up in a la7 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


K4? man i never fly those...only G6AS...WHY?! because it overheats faster than any other plane in the f game (except some types of BFs and FWs LOL)...and i wonder why those Lw planes in general overhats faster than other planes,....theres no data to confirm that they wer heaters...and as u dont know its really a f disadvantage situation when u must look at the heat gauge all the time cause ur machine could overhat in a sec...and casue of that u could not use ur boost after short time

p1ngu666
01-15-2005, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pingu:
it bothers me that manual pitch can give the 109 more performance, than a 109 u would meet in combat in ww2, hence unhistorical. (assuming correct modeling) any other plane ingame is stuck at historic performance (assuming its modeled correctly ingame)

imo using teh manual pitch is abit like saying "ill fly a la5fn" and turning up in a la7 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously,hats off to you if you can make a good use of manual pitch on the Me109.It is known in this game manual pp gives 15% more power frankly before it was so hardly restricted planes like G10 and K4 flew like rockets and could climb away with a big margin.

Earlier you could go up to 3200rpm and not cook the engine but it was being very stressed at this rpm so engine overheat came a little bit later than mw50 but faster than say at 2900rpm.
Now it is so hard that if you go more than one time above 3000rpm the engine dies instantly.I have lost my plane 4times in a row because of it and I don`t use manual pp since 2.04.

Most Me109 pilots also lost interest in it.IMO it is fair now,the pilot who is able to manage the engine up to the very highest limit without killing it makes a trick that is barely made by anyone now so the max performance is worth the risk for him.

Point:Nobody uses it,so why brag about it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but shouldnt the 109 be limited to the maxium performance of a real 109? every other plane is...

manual pitch does require alot of care and attention and skill, id stick with manual cos id rather spend my time on other things, like a real pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ppl do use manual pitch tho, flying with manual u can get better than real performance, while with any other plane u can only match its performance however skilly u are.

tvrdi, there are planes that overheat quicker than g6/as http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

fly a yak at high alt, u have a)naff all power, 2cvs have more power than u do, b)overheat all the time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

german planes unoverheat quickly too, 109 will cook up tho.
p47 overheats quick, despite having a big nose and lots of area for cooling, takes AGES to unoverheat compaired to say a 190, where u flick the power down, and its fine again.

hayateace http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif @ sig

Recon_609IAP
01-15-2005, 08:56 AM
109K4 is a great bird.

If you want realism then setup a server where the US greatly outnumbers the Germans, make the goal to bomber the german targets with b17s at high alt with jugs and stangs in great numerical superiority.

Make the goal about hitting the target and getting home safe.

Then come back here and complain about the 109.

If your idea of comparision is 1v1 at low alt turn fighting, well...then your just silly.

I just love it when people talk about 'FM' and reality, but then play the game so unrealistically.

Good luck

MEGILE
01-15-2005, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> like we delt with and dealing with Spitfires and bunch of other planes that can do "pretty crazy" stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Respectfully Ivan, you is wrong.
The BF-109K4 can outclimb, out gun, and out run the Spitfire IXe... everything you need to be a dominant fighter.
Mate I realy don't see why you claim the Spitfire is uber, or somehow superior to the BF-109.
I think you are taking this whole "we fly harder planes" a little to far mate... maybe back in IL2 but not today.
As someone who flies the BF-109 more than the Spitfire, I can honestly say, the BF-109 outperforms, and downright outclasses the Spitfire, and I'm not complaining about that fact. The BF-109K4 and G6A/S should outclass the Spitfire IXe, and they certainly do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
We got a lot of 109 deniers in the house tonight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If your idea of comparision is 1v1 at low alt turn fighting, well...then your just silly.

I just love it when people talk about 'FM' and reality, but then play the game so unrealistically. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutly Fricken-lutly!

I can't wait to see the complaints if we get a Spitfire XIV, a truly competitive plane to the late war BF-109s.
Until then BF-109s, try to enjoy the massive advantages you have.... I know I will http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
01-15-2005, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
[QUOTE] like we delt with and dealing with Spitfires and bunch of other planes that can do "pretty crazy" stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Respectfully Ivan, you is wrong.
The BF-109K4 can outclimb, out gun, and out run the Spitfire IXe... everything you need to be a dominant fighter.
Mate I realy don't see why you claim the Spitfire is uber, or somehow superior to the BF-109.
I think you are taking this whole "we fly harder planes" a little to far mate... maybe back in IL2 but not today.
As someone who flies the BF-109 more than the Spitfire, I can honestly say, the BF-109 outperforms, and downright outclasses the Spitfire, and I'm not complaining about that fact. The BF-109K4 and G6A/S should outclass the Spitfire IXe, and they certainly do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
We got a lot of 109 deniers in the house tonight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If your idea of comparision is 1v1 at low alt turn fighting, well...then your just silly.

I just love it when people talk about 'FM' and reality, but then play the game so unrealistically. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutly Fricken-lutly!

I can't wait to see the complaints if we get a Spitfire XIV, a truly competitive plane to the late war BF-109s.
Until then BF-109s, try to enjoy the massive advantages you have.... I know I will http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bottom line is.. planes don't perform unrealisticaly.. pilots do.

carguy_
01-15-2005, 12:25 PM
Pfft Spit whiners whine about 44/45 planes being superior to their `43 plane LOL

Spit XIV performed up to FW190D9 and A9 specs so it won`t have such a "massive" advantage over the ME109K4.

But don`t come here screaming becuz a G14 pwned your XIV then! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Whatever,you DF aces can talk what you want about late war planes.

In online wars G6early,late G6 and FW109A8 face SpitIX and P51-20NA.In `44 and `45 the main plane is still the G6Late,not G6/AS or K4.We occasionaly get a G10,we can dream about some Me262 you aces hate so much and Volksyaeger with Me163 are completely banned from online wars. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Instead of Dora there is A9 and F8,there is no Ta152!

Yeah,I remember when an online war host said "We`re working on historical plane sets" when the war was at December `44 LOL

You know what?I have over 300 online war sorties in my belt and I can swear that I have flown the K4 5 times,Me262 2 times and Dora`44(never`45 model!)7 times.

All the rest of most flown by me are is according to dates:

`41 Emil&F2(rarely F4)
`42 Me109F4 and G2
`43 FW190A5 and G6early
`44 G6EARLY and FW190A8
`45 G10 and FW190A9


Doras and K4 were produced in thousands,Me262 in hundreds but we get`em once every 5 missions!

In Online wars LW rarely gets its top planes.

G6early and FW190A8 are the worst planes a host can pick for LW but those planes were 70% of all mission content we ever had.

Bring on whatever you have.Without numbers you`re a mediocre threat.Fly your Yaks3 and Spit XIV but let us have our K4 and Doras!!

Besides,Spit XIV will never find its way into this game,not this one it won`t. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Tvrdi
01-15-2005, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
tvrdi, there are planes that overheat quicker than g6/as http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was talking about K4..it overheats faster than any other plane in the game....recently i was makin a big overheating test usaaf vs lw...almost all LW planes overheated faster than us planes....and wher is data background for this?? i think both planes had good cooling systems and I wonder why 1C specified them (LW planes) as fast overheaters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

carguy, u wonder why u dont have Me262 in dog servers (heck! neither in coops)?...thats cause we (me262 drivers) would kill them all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I can only regret that we dont have an option to include limited number of particular type of the plane..on ex. on warclouds we could have 45% of Mustangs, 30% of P47s, and 20% of p38s and 5% of p39s (rarely used on WF)....on the other side we could have 60% of Bfs 30% of FWs and 10% of Me262s....thats, on ex. around 3-5 Me262s per server....actualy it would be more fun....its not impossible to shot that f jet isnt it...at least for vets here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

20thFG-PirAnha
01-15-2005, 01:41 PM
agree with you Recon, however, historically, the 109s & 190s should be able to out run the spits pretty easily, but then again, the Mustang should be able to do the same against the 190 & 109 like they do for the spits at higher altitude. which doesn't happen to the extent it should.

MEGILE
01-15-2005, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Pfft Spit whiners whine about 44/45 planes being superior to their `43 plane LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I am not whining about the fact that the BF-109K4 out classes the Spitfire. Au contraire, it should and it does. But LW only fliers like your self seem to deny this fact.
And I have no idea why....
I fly the BF-109 more than the spitfire, because I find the BF-109 to be superior.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In online wars G6early blah.blah <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My heart bleeds for you mate. I don't fly VWF or VEF.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Besides,Spit XIV will never find its way into this game,not this one it won`t <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? So when I fly Blue I will have a competitive enemy? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif
Do blue-only fliers truly believe they fly inferior planes? or do they just like to keep up the mith.

The BF-109K4 out climbs, outruns and out guns the Spitfire IXe. It can disengage at will, and stall climb away from it with no problem.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Lemme guess, you turned and burned on the deck, in your BF-109K4 to prove the Spitfire is superior? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

You are basing your ideas soley on a blue-side-only dogfight room perspective.

p1ngu666
01-15-2005, 03:57 PM
i agree with megile, mw50 109s are better than the spits we have ingame, they should be.

im fairly certain we will get a XIV ingame, im privy to information that u arent probably http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

25lb merlins came into service for d day (before d day i think) fitted to both spitfire and p51's in raf service. 25lb boost gives roughly 30mph extra at low alt, plus 1000ft per min or so on climb.

XIV was in squadron service in jan/feb 44 too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

now i know several lw fliers pretty well, and i know they dont mind at all if later spits dont get added, so they can continue to play hero of the luftwaffe in there minds. cept real heros of the luftwaffe flew g6, not k4 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

btw i dont mind 262 2a or big gun jobby. ive made jet coops, even a jabo 262 mission against ships,skip bombing at 900ias rocks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

lw fliers often like the technical supority thing, or say they do (which isnt always there). some get in a right strop if a allied plane is better or close too there 190/109 performance. flew a coop with mig3 am38 vs some 109 f or g. they got really stroppy that migs where faster and better climb, they where better in turn but they didnt realise that, so they got pwned http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

maybe lw fliers are scared that if things are closely matched, they will lose like real lw did http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

carguy_
01-15-2005, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
? I am not whining about the fact that the BF-109K4 out classes the Spitfire. Au contraire, it should and it does. But LW only fliers like your self seem to deny this fact.
And I have no idea why....
I fly the BF-109 more than the spitfire, because I find the BF-109 to be superior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gifWait a minnit.Where exactly are written words that deny SpitIX is outclassed by Me109K4?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My heart bleeds for you mate. I don't fly VWF or VEF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok,maybe Bellum,VOW then?You seem to base your statements on DF experience only.Maybe some historically accurate coops then?No?
How can you comment if a plane is competitive as a whole or not?
Please present some major input like historical coops to provide a platform of a proof that you can actually comment on what a plane in this game is and what role does it plays in axis-allies engagements.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why? So when I fly Blue I will have a competitive enemy?
Do blue-only fliers truly believe they fly inferior planes? or do they just like to keep up the mith. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Inferior to what?VVS?Certainly.VVS being the not-biased force here is a big mith.

Ever heard of a Hispano/ShVakvs.MG151/20 comparement?
You can choose to believe whatever you want to.

As for the SPit XIV it will not make it in this game,there are too many priority planes of other types.There are no resources,no time,no will to make it flyable by 1C.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lemme guess, you turned and burned on the deck, in your BF-109K4 to prove the Spitfire is superior? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great joke!I don`t see anyone laughing though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are basing your ideas soley on a blue-side-only dogfight room perspective. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I detest DF servers and fly only coops and online wars.I do not take statements of DF only crowd seriously.Most of them have problems with surviving a single sortie let alone following mission objectives.

steiner562
01-15-2005, 04:27 PM
And maybe you should stop trolling pinguin1,you want histotical aircraft well why doesen't the spit ixe overheat at high alt at given historical data? and when it does all you have to do is throttle back and all is fine again,its amazing people like megile and LS who claim to fly "blue" (megile I have only ever see you in a thunderbolt or a pony in warclouds) can type these statements they obivously have an angendha to try boost certaIN ALLIED PLANES they loveby porking the competition and dont even get me started on the 109s elevator issues but you wont see pingu posting about that,he will say it was historical and to a degree that is correct but not to whhat we have in game,about the manual proppitch, well you need alot of time to learn its usefullness ,and even then its too time consuming compared to other aircraafton manual to have an affect.

MEGILE
01-15-2005, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>people like megile and LS who claim to fly "blue" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Classic stuff!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>megile I have only ever see you in a thunderbolt or a pony in warclouds) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif I haven't flown the Mustang on Warclouds for a few weeks. Been busy flying P-38s, P-47s, FW-190D9s, and TA-152s with people like WolfModno, and Fish.
Adimitedly, my flying the TA-152 with Fish was short, I had to go eat.. came back to see someone had shot my plane down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I usually solo in the 109.. fly it when I;m not on comms which is 90% of the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>can type these statements they obivously have an angendha to try boost certaIN ALLIED PLANES <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh man.. can you not read

BF-109K4 outperforms Spitfire IXe. This is good. This is realistic. I don't want that fact changed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And maybe you should stop trolling pinguin1 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Oh my.

p1ngu666
01-15-2005, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by steiner562:
And maybe you should stop trolling pinguin1,you want histotical aircraft well why doesen't the spit ixe overheat at high alt at given historical data? and when it does all you have to do is throttle back and all is fine again,its amazing people like megile and LS who claim to fly "blue" (megile I have only ever see you in a thunderbolt or a pony in warclouds) can type these statements they obivously have an angendha to try boost certaIN ALLIED PLANES they loveby porking the competition and dont even get me started on the 109s elevator issues but you wont see pingu posting about that,he will say it was historical and to a degree that is correct but not to whhat we have in game,about the manual proppitch, well you need alot of time to learn its usefullness ,and even then its too time consuming compared to other aircraafton manual to have an affect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

im not trolling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, only historical data i know of shows it could climb fine at 25lb boost or whatever was on hop's chart. spits had bigger rads so it dont have overheat issues, it is slower than it would be with smaller rads tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

on 190 u can just play with throttle for a few seconds and it unoverheats, on 109 u can trick the mw50 time limit by doing the same, 1sec at less than 100% resets the damage clock.
iirec it was 10mins on, 10mins rest then u could use it again, my friend suggested that the meths and water did something to lubrication, made it worse, the rest time u would have had cycled the oil so u could use full power again.

i did post in the 109 elivater thread, several times actully. personaly i think its a ias/tas mixup, or partly so.

yeah the manual pitch thing, say u fly stuka, u can dedicate AGES to flying your stuka and be really good, but u are limited to its historical performance. now fly a 109, and u can use a exploit to get better performance, yeah it takes considerable skill etc, but its something no other plane can replicate, however hard u or anyone else tries. all real pilots flew it on auto anyways apart from in cruise rarely.

btw i fly df and coops, just flew one in a p47, shot down a 190, hit 2 tiger tanks with my rockets, got jumped by a 210, manovered and damaged it, he got my alirons, 2 other ppl moved in for kill as i was outa ammo, i was trying to line him up to rocket him http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, then i rocketed another tiger (hard and slightly scary with alirons) and landed (let a spit with oil leak land first).

i am actully a useless pilot, but sometimes i get lucky, and btw i fly all planes.

XIV is being done by one of the best modelers, and it will be beautiful like his previous work which is ingame already http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. im just not allowed to say who it is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

oh and im not trying to boost allied planes, tho proper raf spec hurris would be nice. im after 25lb boost spits and p51's for raf pilots, and lancaster (to a far lesser extent) and mossie too. btw 25lb boost was as widely used as mw50 in the raf, so i see no reason not too add them eg LF IX late and p51 mark III late

KGr.HH-Sunburst
01-15-2005, 06:35 PM
guys you no what, i flew the spitfire MkIXe for the FIRST time online to even the teams abit against Bf-109G10's and FW190A8s in our onw squad server for 4/5 sorties and got about 13 A2A kills

I dislike the spitfire because its Ugly and has no character of its own .... its easy to fly realy ,easier as the Bf109s ,its point and shoot if ur used to fly FW190s.

Do i find the spitfire inferior to late 109s ,No way!!!
does the 109 outturn spitfire in a sustained turn....nope it doesnt ,i did it 4 times in row against experienced Bf109 pilots who have alot of spitties on thier name.

conclusion is, its pilot skill in a stupid dogfight nomatter what plane you take and the 109 isnt overmoddeld IMO but it has gotten easier to fly over the years and they are sure as hell annoying spraying with mk108s lol
but to whine about the 109 being overmodelled because alot of spitfire pilots are just simply n00bs and dont know how to energy fight 109s, better yet learn to BnZ with it because its a great BnZ plane and it can dive as hell with good control IMO but noooo they dont even take the time to climb to lets say 3k LMAO

and then come here whine about the 109 being overmodelled just because they dont know how to fight in it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

steiner562
01-15-2005, 06:37 PM
XIV is most welcome if it will stop some of the whining on these boards,would be nice to fix german mgs also oh sounded like a good coop pingu,well done.
regards.

Von_Rat
01-15-2005, 11:19 PM
if allies get boosted spit etc. lw should get the fw190 d9s that had the low alt boost.

fair is fair.

you know theres a reason 109 drivers use trim, its because the elevator is wrong, its been proven many times.

as for manual pitch, the 109g6as was faster than p51 on deck in real life, its not in game, unless you use manual.

give the 109s their proper performence with elevator and speed and nobody would use what you refer to as exploits. they wouldn't be worth the bother.

the only reason 109s use the mk108 so much, even though it has low rate of fire and is harder to aim than the mg151, is because the mg151 is a joke.

HayateAce
01-16-2005, 01:51 AM
You guys have frail egos.

The once experten 109 is NO MORE.

It is now WIDELY accepted as being an uber NOOB klown ride.

Deal with it and get over yourselves.

WOLFMondo
01-16-2005, 02:20 AM
I wouldn't say that. You get some n00bs in both Spits and 109's (what choice do new LW inclined players have? 190 is definatly harder to fly) but you also get some excellent pilots in both who know how to fly them and get the best out of them.

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 02:41 AM
lw have there boosted planes von rat.

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/aep2/ lists some there, there copy and paste from jadgmailer (ive got his name wrong) i dont know the performance curves, but g6as or k4 seem to have similer specs.

d9 had alader thingy, now maybe 1 of those saw service... vs most of the raf from mid 44 to VE day.

now the RAF has the equivilent of g6 g6late and fw190a6, also we have blehiem as our only native bomber (raf used b17 a little, and b24 in italy and burma i think) ok we used b25 and a20 too...
oh and the best bomber ingame, the corsair http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

109 is maybe overmodeled abit, its like when they add new planes and they dont bleed e properly or something, its got that ufoishness that other planes dont, ya i know it was good in those areas but it takes the piddle abit now.

if 109 k4 driver or g6as driver knows what hes doing, he can beat a equal ability spitfire cos his plane is better. thats as it should be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

for 190 its tougher, spitfire outclimbs 190, so it should do a climbing fight. ive probably alarmed zen when i did that with ki43 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, and ive done it too other 190 drivers, does amuse me muchly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XIV wont stop the whineing, the few british whiners will be quieter, the MANY lw fliers will be despirate. just like real lw pilots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 02:59 AM
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14v109.html

advantage slashed, performance equaled, or bit better or abit worse http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 03:00 AM
btw i know the data in there isnt 100%, but itll give u guys a idea http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Von_Rat
01-16-2005, 03:07 AM
since when in this sim does the actual numbers of planes made in real life mean anything.

if allies get boosted planes, lw needs a plane to counter them. plain and simple.

if jets were allowed it wouldnt matter, but since theyre not lw needs a counter to boosted planes. also many will argue with the statment that the lw already has theyre boosted planes.

im not afraid of the spit 14, since the spit 9 already performs like one.

or dont you remember that thread,,,,,, why a spit14.

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 04:16 AM
no, a IX performs like a IX ingame http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

lw planes are already boosted, 25lb boost and XIV in service BEFORE g10,14,k4 and g6as i think.

so lw may haveto fight equal or better planes, oh noes. just what most allied fliers have done for ages http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. itll be historic anyways, lw stuggling against adversity, lw fliers dieing for 262 and other uber planes. i dont have a problem with 262 2a and big gun jobby, but 1a for same reasons as ki84c,corsair 1c.

2a will be best jabo plane, and i dont think lw fliers realise that

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 04:16 AM
ps, what are the lw boosted planes u speak of?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Von_Rat
01-16-2005, 04:57 AM
basically what you are asking for is another la7, where no lw plane will be able to out run or out turn you, in other words another kiddy plane. i don't think its going to happen.

ive already mentioned the fw190d9 with the low alt boost.
in fact doras should be outrunning spits even more than they are now, doras have a speed bug.
not to mention that spits dive accelrate way to fast. and that they laugh at multi 30mm hits, while they're armed with plasma cannons, at least compared to mg151. also they're hi alt performence is already on par with a spit14.

others have already presented evidence that we don't have the higher rated engines that some 109s and fws had.

i can't remember but i think it was in the hi boost spitfire thread, im to tired to read all the pages to check.

WUAF_Badsight
01-16-2005, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
This thread is about nothing, really. I don`t see any point in it except the fact that some individuals can`t deal with german aircraft and ready to stand on their head just to tone it down. Deal with it, just like us, dedicated 109 jocks delt with muzzle flash, like we delt with 12 30mm rounds to down fighter, like we delt with and dealing with Spitfires and bunch of other planes that can do "pretty crazy" stuff. But if you complain... bring the facts to the table... and never forget the fact, that most of those who can do crazy stuff in 109s and other AC have thousends of hours of stick time and know their birds in and out and they went with them thru good and bad times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
after reading this thread , this bears repeating

WUAF_Badsight
01-16-2005, 05:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
[but shouldnt the 109 be limited to the maxium performance of a real 109? every other plane is... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
do you think tests for top speed & climb were done in manuel or auto controls ?

& P1 , the 1943 Spits already match or better the 44 & 45 Bf109s in DFs

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 05:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
basically what you are asking for is another la7, where no lw plane will be able to out run or out turn you, in other words another kiddy plane. i don't think its going to happen.

ive already mentioned the fw190d9 with the low alt boost.
others have already presented evidence that we don't have the higher rated engines that some 109s and fws had.

i can't remember but i think it was in the hi boost spitfire thread, im to tired to read all the pages to check. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

XIV wont be a kiddy plane, its handling was worse than IX, but only slightly worse turn.
itll probably be similer to g6as in handling.

i could be harsh and point out there isnt a big diff in 109 and spit IX turn, if the 109 knows what hes doing... so for arguments sake lets say XIV is around g6as level, itll have around same performance... does that make 109g6as a kiddy plane?

also u ever fly mig3? 109 is better than mig3, speed,turn,climb, stability plus mig3 has worse concreate elivator, despite aprently being really good at highspeed...

so its ok for vvs to have worse planes than germans, but not the other way round?

it was really tough for vvs early on, was really tough for lw in latewar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

check my link, it lists the engines jadg gave me, these engines wouldnt give u much more performance, or extra over what u could get in another 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
[but shouldnt the 109 be limited to the maxium performance of a real 109? every other plane is... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
do you think tests for top speed & climb were done in manuel or auto controls ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

auto http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

u could do them in manual too, if u dont over rev engine ud get same performance.
whats the point of doing tests, if u do things a real pilot cant do, plus ud wreck the engine if u overreved it

WUAF_Badsight
01-16-2005, 05:25 AM
really p1ngu , do you think that a Bf , regardless of pilot , should be a easy kill if your flying a Spitfire ?

because the reason that Bf109s can do so well is that were well used to them , even now in 3.03 with the boosted turn performance of the Spitfires , you think that Bf109s are still too good ?

WUAF_Badsight
01-16-2005, 05:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
auto http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

u could do them in manual too, if u dont over rev engine ud get same performance.
whats the point of doing tests, if u do things a real pilot cant do, plus ud wreck the engine if u overreved it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
yes exactly right , the tests were more than likely carried out in the setting that was most likely used

now do you not see how operating it under manuel control would give a higher performance ? power is torque multipled by RPM , you increase RPM & your going to make more power in just about any internal combustion motor

that you get better climb or level speed from manuel control is not incorrect , auto holds the performance back , & its not like manuel control is without penalty , every time you approach 3000 rpm your limiting the time your motor is going to last

there isnt a damadge meter the gets "reset" , it builds up & only thru carefull management , with manuel pitch flyers have been praticing for over 3 years , can you make your motor last

same goes for CSP planes as well in the engine babying department

it not the boost in performance thats wrong P1 , its the operation speed from auto to manuel & back again that makes it useable in DFs in FB

NVP1
01-16-2005, 06:01 AM
This thread from the very start belongs to the General Discussion forum,imho.Why it is still here is beyond my comprehension http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif .

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 06:14 AM
badsight i know, but its a exploit...

its not the fact that u can do stuff to improve performance, its thatu can take it above a REAL 109's performance.

yeah badsight, spits are competive in df's vs 109s, but they can climb/extend away at will. in reality its unlikely a IX we have would meet those late lw planes. its far more likely a 25lb boost IX, or a XIV or tempest, and less again for typhoon, they rarely met the lw (tho rocket typhoon pilots wanted to rocket the lw fighters if they did http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif)

and the IX performs like a IX, a XIV would really scare lw fliers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

109's have retained the more ufoish fm while other planes have got worse, and its not just me saying it...

WOLFMondo
01-16-2005, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
basically what you are asking for is another la7, where no lw plane will be able to out run or out turn you, in other words another kiddy plane. i don't think its going to happen.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The IX is very slow at all heights compared to 44/45 planes, even with the 25lbs boost its only going to get a little faster down low, even then it won't be anywhere near as fast as a D9 or Tempest and the XIV only shines up high. And you can out run spits right now in FB with the a Dora with ease, the only plane you can't outrun right now in a Dora is the P51D, even an A6 will outrun the current Spitfire IX easily. The Spit IX in PF up high isn't all that, it can be run away from easily at all heights. High it it was a historically a good plane, those wings are excellent for grip on the air up high as much as they are down low, that can't be ignored, its a fact, those wings give it allot of ability, its roll is shi*e still though.

The Spitfire XIV won't turn as well (the 109's will out turn it low and slow), it will be heavier but its griffon will give it a ceiling of 44,000ft and an amaizing climb. Thats historically correct though. Uptil somthing like 36,000ft the Ta152 will still be able to outrun it and below 25,000 the K4 will have a slight speed advantage over it.

I don't see what the problems is with having a plane thats correct to the data.

I don't know why your worried about a Spit XIV given in DF rooms people rarely go above 6000m ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ), the Tempest V is a far more scary prospect if some good 190 driver start flying it as that will out run anything else and have the roll, climb and fire power superior to any Spitfire, even post war versions.

Von_Rat
01-16-2005, 06:58 AM
dora is faster on deck than p51d ingame now, even with speed bug. so is k4.

109s need to use manual to reach their historical speeds, its not a exploit. its the speeds on auto thats wrong.

wasn't even the d9 we have in game faster by a small margin than even a tempest in real life. i beleive i saw the deck speed for the low alt boosted dora quoted as 640 ish kph.

spits can eventually catch or force to dive away any lw plane up hi because they dont overheat like lw planes do up hi. same with p47, its slower but doesn't overheat up hi.

i already stated that im not afraid of spit14, im just responding to allied players who think it supposed to turn as good as spit9 and be faster than any lw. as i said it aint going to happen.


________________________________________________
XIV wont stop the whineing, the few british whiners will be quieter, the MANY lw fliers will be despirate. just like real lw pilots
______________________________________________

p1ng666 if your getting outurned by any pilot flying a 109g6as, while your flying a spit, well you better practise more. we are discussing late war west front not mid war vvs. it was tough on lw late war because of numbers and bad training, in real life. in game east front latewar is tough for lw because of grossly overmodeled la7 and yak3.

spit9 is already a kiddy plane, you just want a better kiddy plane.

BigganD
01-16-2005, 07:03 AM
Answer to sunburst... You have wrong that the mk108s wasnt used in dogfights! Have you read they famous story about an american pilot that meet Erich Hartmann over the oilfields at Rumania. He wrote that he saw a red nosed 109 diving on a p51 and then 1 shot from hes mk108 cannon hit the p51.. "pices fly off from the p51 engine,P51 had a good armor but it couldnt stand 30mm". Mk108 was used in dogfights, and yes there where G6 that only had 151, it where they first g6es.. Becuase the mk108 factorys wasnt in full production at that time.. g6 got armed with 151s from the bigining.

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
dora is faster on deck than p51d ingame now, even with speed bug. so is k4.

109s need to use manual to reach their historical speeds, its not a exploit. its the speeds on auto thats wrong.

wasn't even the d9 we have in game faster by a small margin than even a tempest in real life. i beleive i saw the deck speed for the low alt boosted dora quoted as 640 ish kph.

spits can eventually catch or force to dive away any lw plane up hi because they dont overheat like lw planes do up hi. same with p47, its slower but doesn't overheat up hi.

i already stated that im not afraid of spit14, im just responding to allied players who think it supposed to turn as good as spit9 and be faster than any lw. as i said it aint going to happen.


________________________________________________
XIV wont stop the whineing, the few british whiners will be quieter, the MANY lw fliers will be despirate. just like real lw pilots
______________________________________________

p1ng666 if your getting outurned by any pilot flying a 109g6as, while your flying a spit, well you better practise more. we are discussing late war west front not mid war vvs. it was tough on lw late war because of numbers and bad training, in real life. in game east front latewar is tough for lw because of grossly overmodeled la7 and yak3.

spit9 is already a kiddy plane, you just want a better kiddy plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hawker Tempest Mk. V
Powered by a 2200 hp Napier Sabre IIB 24-cylinder horizontal-H liquid-cooled engine. Armed with four 20-mm Hispano Mk. V cannon plus two 1000-lb bombs. Maximum speed was 392 mph at sea level, 416 mph at 4600 feet, 435 mph at 17,000 feet. Range was 820 miles with maximum internal fuel. Initial climb rate was 4700 ft/min. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 6.1 minutes. Service ceiling was 36,000 feet. Weights were 9250 pounds empty, 11,400 pounds loaded. Wing area was 302 square feet.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

dora does 600 or 610 at sl ingame
610 kph = 379.036427 mph
600 kph = 372.822715 mph

spitfire XIV does 363 at sl with 18lbs boost

hm and the turn, got a test report here

"the turning circles of both aircraft are identical, warning of high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of spitfire XIV" thats against a IX http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

speed at height, dora from ingame does 650 at 10,000metres and isnt that happy up there (high wing loading)
spit XIV does 700.
itll be slower at some alts, faster at others, but its gonna be a big improvement over IX.

i dont fly IX well tbh, much better IX pilots around, but i do fly against really good 109 drivers too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

43mid and late, early 44 lw planes wherent the best, late 44 u get mw50 109's and D9...
that 43/44 period, thats when the lw lost it, allies just cut into lw day fighters, lw had really bad causalties in that period in the west,and it wasnt purely numbers, g6 just wasnt upto it.

la7 and yak3 are abit overmodeled, but i fly yak9 way more often, and thats probably undermodeled. if u in a yak9 vs yak3 or la7, u are basicaly dead, they are much better at everything http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i find 109 easier to get kills than spit, plus that climb rate just means u can climb away from anything, so once id got some advice on 109 from some 109 drivers, includin stiglr who helped most. took up 109g6as, got 6 kills. spits and la7's too.

i dont "just" want a kiddy plane. i want a typhoon and tempest and mossie and lanc too. and the italian planes, did u know germans wanted to make some of the italian planes? but took to many man hours to bulid...

now i bet u thinkin i dont want do335, but i helped out in that where i could http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tvrdi
01-16-2005, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
dora is faster on deck than p51d ingame now, even with speed bug. so is k4.

109s need to use manual to reach their historical speeds, its not a exploit. its the speeds on auto thats wrong.

wasn't even the d9 we have in game faster by a small margin than even a tempest in real life. i beleive i saw the deck speed for the low alt boosted dora quoted as 640 ish kph.

spits can eventually catch or force to dive away any lw plane up hi because they dont overheat like lw planes do up hi. same with p47, its slower but doesn't overheat up hi.

i already stated that im not afraid of spit14, im just responding to allied players who think it supposed to turn as good as spit9 and be faster than any lw. as i said it aint going to happen.


________________________________________________
XIV wont stop the whineing, the few british whiners will be quieter, the MANY lw fliers will be despirate. just like real lw pilots
______________________________________________

p1ng666 if your getting outurned by any pilot flying a 109g6as, while your flying a spit, well you better practise more. we are discussing late war west front not mid war vvs. it was tough on lw late war because of numbers and bad training, in real life. in game east front latewar is tough for lw because of grossly overmodeled la7 and yak3.

spit9 is already a kiddy plane, you just want a better kiddy plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hawker Tempest Mk. V
Powered by a 2200 hp Napier Sabre IIB 24-cylinder horizontal-H liquid-cooled engine. Armed with four 20-mm Hispano Mk. V cannon plus two 1000-lb bombs. Maximum speed was 392 mph at sea level, 416 mph at 4600 feet, 435 mph at 17,000 feet. Range was 820 miles with maximum internal fuel. Initial climb rate was 4700 ft/min. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 6.1 minutes. Service ceiling was 36,000 feet. Weights were 9250 pounds empty, 11,400 pounds loaded. Wing area was 302 square feet.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

dora does 600 or 610 at sl ingame
610 kph = 379.036427 mph
600 kph = 372.822715 mph

spitfire XIV does 363 at sl with 18lbs boost

hm and the turn, got a test report here

"the turning circles of both aircraft are identical, warning of high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of spitfire XIV" thats against a IX http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

speed at height, dora from ingame does 650 at 10,000metres and isnt that happy up there (high wing loading)
spit XIV does 700.
itll be slower at some alts, faster at others, but its gonna be a big improvement over IX.

i dont fly IX well tbh, much better IX pilots around, but i do fly against really good 109 drivers too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

43mid and late, early 44 lw planes wherent the best, late 44 u get mw50 109's and D9...
that 43/44 period, thats when the lw lost it, allies just cut into lw day fighters, lw had really bad causalties in that period in the west,and it wasnt purely numbers, g6 just wasnt upto it.

la7 and yak3 are abit overmodeled, but i fly yak9 way more often, and thats probably undermodeled. if u in a yak9 vs yak3 or la7, u are basicaly dead, they are much better at everything http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i find 109 easier to get kills than spit, plus that climb rate just means u can climb away from anything, so once id got some advice on 109 from some 109 drivers, includin stiglr who helped most. took up 109g6as, got 6 kills. spits and la7's too.

i dont "just" want a kiddy plane. i want a typhoon and tempest and mossie and lanc too. and the italian planes, did u know germans wanted to make some of the italian planes? but took to many man hours to bulid...

now i bet u thinkin i dont want do335, but i helped out in that where i could http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem is that in DOG servers everything is "what if"...long Coops with RL planeset shows the real thing...up high as it should dog starts....dog is for fast (can i say a little bit stupid) fun..is pretty much all in turnings there...for some ppl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif..BUT when a pilot who wont think too much (not necessarily a newbie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) flying a spit IX in dog - hes only concentrated on turnings and chasing (he dont care if someone is on his 6, he dont think)..and what happens? he found himself nailed by vet LW pilot who know his plane and who think....what is the conclusion here?...Im flying really, for both sides equally, and when Im in the Spit I never chase a messer in a dive...I never climb after him....avoiding low speed turns down low....I try to fly high, ABOVE the messers...belive it or not, I had near the same success with Spit in BnZ-ing the Lw planes as with messer.....and when i found one me or FockeWulf at the same alt (always up high hehe of course) Im the winner..in rare occasions i got nailed, but only if on the other side is a f Lw maniac....

WUAF_Badsight
01-16-2005, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
badsight i know, but its a exploit...

its not the fact that u can do stuff to improve performance, its thatu can take it above a REAL 109's performance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
so you cant see how manuel pitch actually would give greater performance IRL ?

above performance that the auto setting would allow ?

this seems to be about the fact there isnt a 44 or 45 Spitfire rather than the BF is over performing

even before PF the Mk9 Spitfire was doing sustained turn times faster than the G2 even , remember ? & how many would have believed that if it wasnt for the tests having been done

if you want to talk about UFOs in a DF , a good place to start would actually be the Spitfire

because dude , its better than ever & theres no way the Bf can hold a candel to its ability to hold E

i said after testing that i wouldnt know what to do with a Spit fan if they dared to complain about them the way they now , because when there this good whats to complain about

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 11:16 AM
ya manual pitch could give better performance, but would u overrev engine and get away with it?

it would go kaput, and or your team of mechnanics would get really annoyed that every sortie u do, theres a engine to change.

if the engine was ok todo more rpm, why didnt makers allow higher rpm in auto mode, specialy as newbie pilots they had could hardly fly very well to start with.

it would be like this irl
ok hans, this plane has auto mode, but manual is much better, all u haveto do is constantly adust this lever with your speed and height, u can pull extra revs for more power then. why dont they allow extra revs in auto mode which everyone uses? well son its cos the engine will fall apart, or be worn out so we haveto replace them so often we cant keep enuff planes in the air.

hans takes off, hans frys engine by acciedent.
hans takes off again, eyes glued to rev counter, hans crashes into buliding.
hans takes off, climbs faster than rest of flight
bob asks why hans is faster as he is at full throttle and optimum everything
hans says hes using manual and exceding the engines max rpm
countryside shudders at the sound of a flights worth of db engines at 7krpm, a series of bompfs and then silence.

hans flys on alone, hans gets shot in the face by p51's he never sees cos hes lookin at rev counter.

imo if the engines where ok for higher revs, they woulda used higher revs in auto. no one else seems to care tho so oh well.

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 11:17 AM
IX was better a few patches ago too, imo

S.taibanzai
01-16-2005, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
Answer to sunburst... You have wrong that the mk108s wasnt used in dogfights! Have you read they famous story about an american pilot that meet Erich Hartmann over the oilfields at Rumania. He wrote that he saw a red nosed 109 diving on a p51 and then 1 shot from hes mk108 cannon hit the p51.. "pices fly off from the p51 engine,P51 had a good armor but it couldnt stand 30mm". Mk108 was used in dogfights, and yes there where G6 that only had 151, it where they first g6es.. Becuase the mk108 factorys wasnt in full production at that time.. g6 got armed with 151s from the bigining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yep it was used in dogfights also 100% right

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 12:33 PM
wherent most of the 109's fitted with mg151/20 untill k4?

we have hungiran (spellin) g10,14 with mk108 cos thats what they fitted, and german factories fitted the 20mm. i could be wrong tho

BigganD
01-16-2005, 01:03 PM
Is Erich Hartmann a Hungarian name? hehe..Was he flying i the Hungarian air force? I dont think so!

p1ngu666
01-16-2005, 01:17 PM
nope, but a large % of hungarian produced aircraft went to the lw. they where better than german procuded ones aprently, possibly why we have hun g10,14 or whatever models it is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BigganD
01-16-2005, 01:43 PM
well it would be nice if we could choose between 151 and mk108s, like we can with g6,g6as..then if you are having hard hiting with the mk108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HayateAce
01-16-2005, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
well it would be nice if we could choose between 151 and mk108s, like we can with g6,g6as..then if you are having hard hiting with the mk108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Mk108 dispersion was made unrealistic due to player crying"

~ Oleg Maddox

JG5_UnKle
01-16-2005, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

"Mk108 dispersion was made unrealistic due to player crying"

~ Oleg Maddox <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blah blah blah he said the same thing about the .50 Cal.

More to the point who gives a **** anymore? I get tired of this **** now. Always the same morons........

Tvrdi
01-16-2005, 06:02 PM
look..only LW guns arent lasers in the game...

MEGILE
01-16-2005, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>spit9 is already a kiddy plane, you just want a better kiddy plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

That is so ******ed I can't be botherd to argue.

WWMaxGunz
01-16-2005, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
badsight i know, but its a exploit...

its not the fact that u can do stuff to improve performance, its thatu can take it above a REAL 109's performance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
so you cant see how manuel pitch actually would give greater performance IRL ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fully correct if the speed data out-performed comes from being run on auto.

And if Manuel Pitch was flying, using manual pitch control, would he do better?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
even before PF the Mk9 Spitfire was doing sustained turn times faster than the G2 even , remember ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there some problem with Spit IX having faster sustained turns than 109G-2... even?
Or is there some new version of history out with 109 super turnfighters??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> & how many would have believed that if it wasnt for the tests having been done

if you want to talk about UFOs in a DF , a good place to start would actually be the _Spitfire_

because dude , its better than ever & theres no way the Bf can hold a candel to its ability to hold E
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do possibly know that for sustained flat turns there is a maximum turn speed for every
plane that it can hold that speed or better indefinitely? Maybe with a little checking
you can find those, another thread here had the doghouse charts for Spit 1 and 109E at
15,000 ft.

You might be surprised.

karost
01-16-2005, 08:44 PM
MK108 become a lasergun ..!? no no no... because a players learn to use it

Mk108 is not easy gun to shoot , to shoooting a target with air-speed over 400km/h it need a deflection calculation and alot of skill for hand on this gun with small number of ammo ,

alot of LW 's friends keep flying bf-109 since IL2 original version they have alot of experience for shoot this gun and air-combat skills

151/20 was weak and lock elevator at 450 km/h that force many LW's friends learn to use every thing that he has like mk108 and low-speed combat manuever

why just looking only same side of picture , other side of success playing online game is PLAYER'S SKILL
stop crying and try to play both side for improve your SKILL like alot of wise friends did

I still happy when meet a good red friends online he never cry like a kids and he never stop to improve his skill , I respect all this people http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



S!

WUAF_Badsight
01-16-2005, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ya manual pitch could give better performance, but would u overrev engine and get away with it?. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
& you dont in FB

hans might be a newbie but many have lots of pratice with Manuel control & dont need to be as limited as Hans seems to be while their DogFighting

fact is that yes , higher revs would give better performance

& in FB if you go over 3000 rpm then your motor is damadge . . . . thats not myth , thats actual use in FB

what is wrong P1 isnt that manuel gives better performance , but that it works real fast

IRL , & it was described here from the german FB forum last year , there was a delay & even before the pilot switced from auto he had to power down & lower revs , then when switching back the mechanisim took a longer delay getting engaged

but we press keys in FB

so it isnt just pitch that works too fast

gear down

flaps up & down

you name it , so what are you left with ? maddox Games didnt limit the Bf109 to auto control , but along with the ability to manuel control pitch is the fact that it switches faster than RL

remember dude , pitch isnt a magic bullet that give you instant kills

the Spitfire is still the better-at-everything plane even without a manuel pitch propeller

& be sure , the Spitfires are better than ever


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Is there some problem with Spit IX having faster sustained turns than 109G-2... even?
Or is there some new version of history out with 109 super turnfighters?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no

but if you tried to say the Spitfire were turning better in AEP than 109s you would get the opposite said back to you

i bet some didnt believe the results even after they were posted

i bet some still take DFing to be turning performance , get beaten in a turn fight & then come here to vent

LeadSpitter_
01-17-2005, 12:39 AM
Oh yeah I forget to mention that the 109s have better highspeed elevator effectiveness then the yak9 now past 450kmph.

Hetzer_II
01-17-2005, 01:03 AM
Its not far away that some guys will tell us the 109 has a better elevator than the p51....

WOLFMondo
01-17-2005, 01:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:

spits can eventually catch or force to dive away any lw plane up hi because they dont overheat like lw planes do up hi. same with p47, its slower but doesn't overheat up hi.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Von rat, I fly P47's and Fw190's almost exclusivly at the moment. The P47 overheats much quicker than the Dora and A9 apart from way up high at 30,000ft+. The Spitfire at the minute overheats quicker than the Dora and is harder to get the temp down once its there.

i can't get 640 on the deck out the dora, 590 is the best i can get out of the '44 version, 595 is the best i can get out the p51. And even on 100% the Dora and A6 can escape a Spitfire IX.

WOLFMondo
01-17-2005, 01:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
look..only LW guns arent lasers in the game... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, the 108 is a mine thrower with the destructive effect to the same extent a 100lbs he bomb has in this simhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Mg151/20 does work and its dead accurate upto 300m.

get sturmolog and look at your own effectiveness with these weapons as well as everyone elses. you will be surpised how many few rounds it takes from a lw plane to drop another plane.

do some of you guys want an accurate sim? Or a balanced game?

crazyivan1970
01-17-2005, 01:39 AM
I`m lost, what is this thread about?

Hetzer_II
01-17-2005, 01:44 AM
"do some of you guys want an accurate sim? Or a balanced game?"

Looooool: 1 hit from hispanno and your little soooo weak 190 wings goes of.. (I know not every time but it happens quiet often...)

30 hits from mg151/20 and the spit begins to vomit some smoke...

Shure i want a realistic sim... you too?

And btw: What do you believe should happen if a 30mm hits a weak construction like a fighter wing??

p1ngu666
01-17-2005, 03:03 AM
37mm's require more skill than the mk108 tbh

WOLFMondo
01-17-2005, 03:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I`m lost, what is this thread about? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It started as a funny whine and will end as a whine..about German planes being deficient...again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
"do some of you guys want an accurate sim? Or a balanced game?"

Looooool: 1 hit from hispanno and your little soooo weak 190 wings goes of.. (I know not every time but it happens quiet often...)

30 hits from mg151/20 and the spit begins to vomit some smoke...

Shure i want a realistic sim... you too?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I say, download and use sturmolog, you will be surprised about how effective those MG151's are. Some of the best LW inclined guys on WC get an average of 10 rounds per kill but only 10-20% hits of all there ammo spend. Now that says allot about effectivness vs aim.

And if a 30mm hits a fighter it breaks up and it does. The 30mm is effective plain and simple.

IIJG69_Kartofe
01-17-2005, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Oh yeah I forget to mention that the 109s have better highspeed elevator effectiveness then the yak9 now past 450kmph. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OOOH YES ... Of course !

You foget to mention the new cofee machine too !

MEGILE
01-17-2005, 03:50 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>spits can eventually catch or force to dive away any lw plane up hi because they dont overheat like lw planes do up hi. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spit is slower, and has terrible overheat once the temp is up.
In the BF-109 you can throttle back to 95% and the engine will cool again. In the Spit you have to throttle back to around 60% and hold it for a while.

You would know this, if you flew red every now and again, instead of listenting to forum luft-whines.
You hear only what you want to. And that is why you are teh luft-b1tch.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Looooool: 1 hit from hispanno and your little soooo weak 190 wings goes of.. (I know not every time but it happens quiet often... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and 1 hit from the MK108, and you can explode Spitfires and P-51s.
The Hispano is brilliant for chopping wings off no doubt.

Von_Zero
01-17-2005, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and 1 hit from the MK108, and you can explode Spitfires and P-51s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are comparing a 20mm cannon with a 30mm one? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

MEGILE
01-17-2005, 04:24 AM
No, let us see a pattern.

20mm takes off wings
30mm cooks the skin off your bones and blows you up into tiny pieces.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Von_Rat
01-17-2005, 05:21 AM
i do fly red fairly often.

spits take forever to heat up, up hi, repeat, up hi.. alot longer than dora. even longer for 47. it doesn't matter if your planes slower, all you have to do 1 vs 1 ,up hi, is chase any lw plane till he overheats. . then he has to dive away.

what does aim have to do with anything, if you hit, you hit, im talking about how many hits it takes mg151 vs hispano. who cares if alot of the shots miss. its hits that count. and it takes alot more hits with mg151 to kill than a hispano.

10 rounds per kill you say lw players are reporting on warclouds, who are they, is that 10 20mm rounds to kill a fighter. nobody i know on warclouds would be happy needing 10 20mm rounds to kill a fighter. that dosen't sound realistic or accurate to me.


ill try that sturmlog, and ill report the results.with both the dora and spit. using 20mm only. then you can judge.

i don't know any lw inclined player on warclouds who thinks mg151 are good.

both spits and p51 take multi 30mm to bring down, only occasionally is one enough.

Von_Rat
01-17-2005, 05:44 AM
i downloaded sturmolog, but it says its for il2, nothing about fb. and it cant find path. do you have link for a fb version.

p1ngu666
01-17-2005, 06:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
i do fly red fairly often.

spits take forever to heat up, up hi, repeat, up hi.. alot longer than dora. even longer for 47. it doesn't matter if your planes slower, all you have to do 1 vs 1 ,up hi, is chase any lw plane till he overheats. . then he has to dive away.

what does aim have to do with anything, if you hit, you hit, im talking about how many hits it takes mg151 vs hispano. who cares if alot of the shots miss. its hits that count. and it takes alot more hits with mg151 to kill than a hispano.

10 rounds per kill you say lw players are reporting on warclouds, who are they, is that 10 20mm rounds to kill a fighter. nobody i know on warclouds would be happy needing 10 20mm rounds to kill a fighter. that dosen't sound realistic or accurate to me.


ill try that sturmlog, and ill report the results.with both the dora and spit. using 20mm only. then you can judge.

i don't know any lw inclined player on warclouds who thinks mg151 are good.

both spits and p51 take multi 30mm to bring down, only occasionally is one enough. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i shot down a zero with 5 hits from my beufighter, but i fired over 200+ rounds. i normaly get 10% average.

10rounds is about 1second, but assume 10% accuracy, thats 10seconds. we probably miss more than we realise, plus mg151/20 rounds have quite different balistics vs other rounds

WOLFMondo
01-17-2005, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
i do fly red fairly often.

spits take forever to heat up, up hi, repeat, up hi.. alot longer than dora. even longer for 47. it doesn't matter if your planes slower, all you have to do 1 vs 1 ,up hi, is chase any lw plane till he overheats. . then he has to dive away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 47 overheats way quicker than a Dora and takes longer to cool, with the dora as soon as the overheat message comes up I can put the throttle down to 100 and it goes to normal. Given its huge speed advantage over all spits at all heights you can still outrun one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
i downloaded sturmolog, but it says its for il2, nothing about fb. and it cant find path. do you have link for a fb version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The latest version works for FB. I can put up my copy of it on my FTP site and give you a link via PM when I get home in 5 hours if you want?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:

what does aim have to do with anything, if you hit, you hit, im talking about how many hits it takes mg151 vs hispano. who cares if alot of the shots miss. its hits that count. and it takes alot more hits with mg151 to kill than a hispano. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cause people fire away and say there doing no damage but in reality there only hitting there target a few times out of the hundreds or even thousands of rounds there firing off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
10 rounds per kill you say lw players are reporting on warclouds, who are they, is that 10 20mm rounds to kill a fighter. nobody i know on warclouds would be happy needing 10 20mm rounds to kill a fighter. that dosen't sound realistic or accurate to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 20mm rounds historically would nail most fighters. 10 rounds is the best of the best though, most people are higher. I'll host and post the logs from the last week so you can have a look if you doubt what im saying.

Most of the ones with the best hit ratio have JV44 in front of there namehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif or are called Fish6891. Sturmolog is just like the FBDeamon stats when people use &lt;gunstat. It just parses the info coming from th e server. The server registers those rounds either as fire and missed or fired and hit so AFAIK its pretty accurate information.

crazyivan1970
01-17-2005, 06:54 AM
Wow, i am being quoted in signatures now... Fame! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MEGILE
01-17-2005, 07:20 AM
Can anyone provide a link to sturmolog?

I want to to know if I can pilot kill with a single .303 round.

hmm, I should write for Sir.Robin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

p1ngu666
01-17-2005, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
Can anyone provide a link to sturmolog?

I want to to know if I can pilot kill with a single .303 round.

hmm, I should write for Sir.Robin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u can, ive done it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

bullet in teh face http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

p1ngu666
01-17-2005, 08:30 AM
sigtest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JG5_UnKle
01-17-2005, 11:29 AM
Get Sturmolog here : Sturmolog Site (http://www.sturmolog.heatware.de/)

Works fine for me in IL-2 FB AEP PF Merged 3.03

carguy_
01-17-2005, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Oh yeah I forget to mention that the 109s have better highspeed elevator effectiveness then the yak9 now past 450kmph.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAOhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
---------------------
I think some ppl are mistaking about MG151/20 effectiveness.It is very effective up to 140m range and causes damage characteristic for AP rounds,very rarely any HE causes effects.

Higher range than 140m you can get 20hits in one spot and not cause serious damage.

MG151/20 should really be more effective up to 200-220m range causing damage just barely not so effective as when firing from max 140m.

For now just wait for the plane to fill 80% of the circle and fire away,you`ll love 20mm.

Still,Hispano is able to cause fatal damage with 5-6 hits from dead six even at 280m range from dead six which is caomparable to MK108..that is if one is able to hit with MK208 from that range.

Gunner_361st
01-17-2005, 01:09 PM
Over the course of reading this thread, I have to say I've forgotten what it was initially about. Regardless, I think I'll say what I have to say and move on. ;-)

Some people seem to think that the harder the plane is to fly, the more realistic it is. Anyone with a pinch of common sense would know that it would be in the rational self-interest of any airforce to have aircraft that were strong in three basic ways.

1 - High Performance
2 - Reliable
3 - Easy to Operate and Fly

I've read and watched loads of pilot testimony and Interviews and one think becomes immediately obvious; aircraft that were easy to fly were vastly preferred over difficult ones. B-25 Mitchell pilots frequently commented on how easy to fly and forgiving the plane was, and how that was so essential for their survival considering that hundreds of thousands of pilots in WWII were rookies, hastily trained and then thrown into the maelstrom of battle because they were needed there and now. I've read pilot testimony as well stating the BF-109, P-51, and Spitfire were all relatively easy to fly, considering their highly powered military planes, which suffer from massive torque and are thus a safety hazard compared to much lesser powered civilian planes.

The only thing I know for sure is how aircraft behave and perform in respect to one another IN THIS SIMULATOR. As for real WWII aircraft, I don't have the gusto (or perhaps ignorance) to pretend I know that a Spitfire could easily outmanuever a BF-109, or that a BF-109 could outrun anything under the sun.

All we have is the data and test results that were left of the era, and a few old relics that survived the war and are in personal collections or museums. On top of pilot testimony, which really can't be used to model a simulator, but can serve as a general guideline for "fact-checking" it seems that a lot of people here get very bent out of shape when their favorite aircraft is modeled in a way they don't like.

It's our responsibility as flight sim enthusiasts to do our best to support the company that brings us this product we all enjoy immensely and make our combined, objective efforts to make sure aircraft are modeled as realistically as feasibly possible.

But the whole argument of my country's fighter is better than yours will never end I think. ;-) Boys with toys! ~S~

Gunner

Tvrdi
01-17-2005, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
look..only LW guns arent lasers in the game... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, the 108 is a mine thrower with the destructive effect to the same extent a 100lbs he bomb has in this simhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Mg151/20 does work and its dead accurate upto 300m.

get sturmolog and look at your own effectiveness with these weapons as well as everyone elses. you will be surpised how many few rounds it takes from a lw plane to drop another plane.

do some of you guys want an accurate sim? Or a balanced game? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF are u talking about..Mk108 cannons were monsters in RL..often it was enough to hit a plane with one foking shell....in sim, often, i found myself filling an us plane with 3-4 mk108 shells with small effect (on ex, p51 only smokes after taking 3 mk108 hits in the fuselage area sometimes)....

TX-Zen
01-17-2005, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunner_361st:

It's our responsibility as flight sim enthusiasts to do our best to support the company that brings us this product we all enjoy immensely and make our combined, objective efforts to make sure aircraft are modeled as realistically as feasibly possible.



Gunner <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen Gunner, &lt;S!&gt;

NorrisMcWhirter
01-17-2005, 05:33 PM
Hi,

Haven't you worked it out by now? No matter how many times it's reported that the 151/20 is no good, the response is, effectively, 'learn to shoot', 'you need to be closer than 200m' etc

What people seem to forget is that with the Hispano, for instance, you don't need to be 200m away or less. Nor do you have to be a good shot because a quick spray that maybe land 3-4 hits is going to chop a wing off compared to the 7-10 required for the 151/20.

And then people moan about the mk108 being used. If the 151/20 wasn't so dire, people wouldn't have to resort to the 30mm. Flying the 190 is frustrating enough what with the guns being relatively ineffective but when you cripple something then someone takes it down with a couple of 30mm hits then it's taking the piss.

There is a simple solution to all of this, of course: just fly allied...what with the hispano, shvak and those .50s that are effective up to 500m+, why bother making life difficult for yourself?

Let's face it, no one wants an unhistorical situation (except one or two..and they know who they are) arising with a overcompensation with the 151/20; personally, I just want something that is *almost* as powerful as the hispano, rather than something half as powerful..because something is plainly wrong at the moment.

Then again, think how much counter-whining there would be if this cannon eventually was sorted out....

Cheers,
Norris

WOLFMondo
01-18-2005, 01:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
look..only LW guns arent lasers in the game... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, the 108 is a mine thrower with the destructive effect to the same extent a 100lbs he bomb has in this simhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Mg151/20 does work and its dead accurate upto 300m.

get sturmolog and look at your own effectiveness with these weapons as well as everyone elses. you will be surpised how many few rounds it takes from a lw plane to drop another plane.

do some of you guys want an accurate sim? Or a balanced game? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF are u talking about..Mk108 cannons were monsters in RL..often it was enough to hit a plane with one foking shell....in sim, often, i found myself filling an us plane with 3-4 mk108 shells with small effect (on ex, p51 only smokes after taking 3 mk108 hits in the fuselage area sometimes).... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if your playing online you will find descrepancies because of lag and packed loss but they are very effective. try flying both sides all the time and you get a good perspective on them.

Vipez-
01-19-2005, 07:16 AM
ANother great topic by LS... no wonder you have 5298 posts.. http://download.smiliemania.de/smilies132/00000563.gif