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wintergoose
01-05-2008, 10:37 AM
Heard abouth the P51 mustang variant divebomber ?
So the Pony was also a "bomber".
A variant of the Mustang called A-36 Apache with divebreaks on both side of the wings.
It was built 500 pcs and was operated in North Africa and Italia and also in the pacific.
It had the higest accident rate per houer flyingtime of anny USAF aircraft

LEBillfish
01-05-2008, 10:44 AM
A-36 Apache

Interesting, I'd never heard of them. Good find http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
01-05-2008, 10:47 AM
Divebombing in a P51 sounds like Kamikaze.

wintergoose
01-05-2008, 11:15 AM
It is some stuf abouth them in Wikipedia searc for A-36 Apache.
I heard abouth them in a book "The history of dive bombing" of Peter C. Smith.
They had pylons for two 500 ib bombs Alison V-1710-87 engine.
3 pcs was even sendt RAF for evalutations

Bremspropeller
01-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Yeah, and they had a problem with async dive-flap deployment.


Story goes that way:

They installed stprings that were installed on some special german motorbike-saddles and the problems were over.
Needless to say, that vastly increased the worth of any of those captured bikes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
01-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Oh well, the pony got designed by a German, no real surprise here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Anyways, the story behind the A-36 is that the USAAF allready had the P-38, the P-39 and the P-40 and there wasn't any more budget for yet another fighter. But there was still a budget for dive bombers. Just after the blitz-krieg, suddenly everybody wanted dive bombers. So a clever solution was worked ou between the NA company and the officer charged with aquaring (spelling??) new aircraft for the USAAF.

That's how the first Mustangs entered the American air force.

R_Target
01-05-2008, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Oh well, the pony got designed by a German, no real surprise here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Ah, so that's why the wings came off.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bremspropeller
01-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Yeah, it's called "swing wing" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

han freak solo
01-05-2008, 05:53 PM
http://ar.geocities.com/machtress/a36_apache.jpg

http://www.shanaberger.com/images/A-36_1.htm

Sergio_101
01-05-2008, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by wintergoose:
Heard abouth the P51 mustang variant divebomber ?
So the Pony was also a "bomber".
A variant of the Mustang called A-36 Apache with divebreaks on both side of the wings.
It was built 500 pcs and was operated in North Africa and Italia and also in the pacific.
It had the higest accident rate per houer flyingtime of anny USAF aircraft

Wash your mouth out with soap, calling a P-51 a "pony"......

I knew some old timers that refused to call them Mustangs.
Always referred to them by the original name "Apache".
Yes, all P-51s were to be called Apache.
The name given to the A-36 was originally "Invader".

The Brits coined the name "Mustang"

The A-36 has a checkered reputation as a dive bomber.
some loved them, some said they were not great at their originally intended
role as a dive bomber.

Love em or hate em the A-36 was an excellent weapon as it doubled as a good attack bomber
and a deadly fighter after dropping it's bombs. (dogfighting is something the Ju-87 Stuka could never do well).

The A-36 has the record as the lowest attrition/loss rate of any USAAF combat aircraft of WWII.
I read somewhere it has the lowest attrition/loss rate of any combat aircraft of WWII in any AF Allied or Axis.
Not bad concidering that it was powered by the water cooled Allison V-1710.
Better attrition and loss rate than the air cooled P-47.....

The Collings Foundation is soon to put another A-36 on airworthy status.
As far as I know presently there is only one airworthy.

Sergio

scaredycat1
01-05-2008, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Oh well, the pony got designed by a German, no real surprise here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Anyways, the story behind the A-36 is that the USAAF allready had the P-38, the P-39 and the P-40 and there wasn't any more budget for yet another fighter. But there was still a budget for dive bombers. Just after the blitz-krieg, suddenly everybody wanted dive bombers. So a clever solution was worked ou between the NA company and the officer charged with aquaring (spelling??) new aircraft for the USAAF.

That's how the first Mustangs entered the American air force.

Im a little confused, Dutch Kindleburg was the designer of the A36- P51?
Intersting topic.

Ratsack
01-05-2008, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:
...

The A-36 has the record as the lowest attrition/loss rate of any USAAF combat aircraft of WWII.
I read somewhere it has the lowest attrition/loss rate of any combat aircraft of WWII in any AF Allied or Axis

...

I detest claims like this, because they usually exist for a number of different aircraft, depending on the author of the tome in question, and their personal preferences. So today it's the A-36.

I've heard the exact same assertion regarding:

* the P-47; and
* the B-26; and
* half a dozen other types.

Ratsack

berg417448
01-05-2008, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by scaredycat1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Oh well, the pony got designed by a German, no real surprise here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Anyways, the story behind the A-36 is that the USAAF allready had the P-38, the P-39 and the P-40 and there wasn't any more budget for yet another fighter. But there was still a budget for dive bombers. Just after the blitz-krieg, suddenly everybody wanted dive bombers. So a clever solution was worked ou between the NA company and the officer charged with aquaring (spelling??) new aircraft for the USAAF.

That's how the first Mustangs entered the American air force.

Im a little confused, Dutch Kindleburg was the designer of the A36- P51?
Intersting topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edgar Schmued,although a US citizen, was born in Germany. He was a design engineer for North American Aviation and is usually given primary credit for the Mustang design.

ElAurens
01-05-2008, 07:03 PM
The V1710 powered A 36 was excellent at low to mid altitudes, and every bit as good (if not better) than the Merlin engined P51 at those heights.

Typically the dive brakes were wired shut.

Don't think "dive bomber", think "high speed intruder".

It would be an interesting addition to any North African scenario, and a right pain in the arse for the Luftwaffe/Regia Aeronautica.

berg417448
01-05-2008, 07:13 PM
Don't be too sure about the dive brakes being wired shut:

"A sort of urban legend has sprung up about the A-36A's dive brakes. According to some stories, the dive brakes of the A-36A were next to useless and were deliberately wired shut at the manufacturers so that they could not be used. This story is totally incorrect. On the contrary, the dive brakes proved to be quite effective in combat, and the aircraft was so stable with the dive brakes extended that bombing while in a dive was particularly accurate. The origin of this legend seems to have been in the United States, at a time before the A-36s first went overseas. It seems that A-36A pilots were told by their officers in the USA that their dive brakes would be all but useless in combat and it would be best if they simply wired them shut. This turned out to be incorrect, and the dive brakes were used to great effect throughout the Sicilian campaign and the Italian invasion. "

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_6.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p51_6.html)

Capt. Charles E. Dills, 27th Fighter Bomber Group, 522nd Squadron, XIIth Air Force emphatically stated in a postwar interview: "I flew the A-36 for 39 of my 94 missions, from 11/43 to 3/44. They were never wired shut in Italy in combat. This 'wired shut' story apparently came from the training group at Harding Field, Baton Rouge, LA."

scaredycat1
01-05-2008, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scaredycat1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Oh well, the pony got designed by a German, no real surprise here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Anyways, the story behind the A-36 is that the USAAF allready had the P-38, the P-39 and the P-40 and there wasn't any more budget for yet another fighter. But there was still a budget for dive bombers. Just after the blitz-krieg, suddenly everybody wanted dive bombers. So a clever solution was worked ou between the NA company and the officer charged with aquaring (spelling??) new aircraft for the USAAF.

That's how the first Mustangs entered the American air force.

Im a little confused, Dutch Kindleburg was the designer of the A36- P51?
Intersting topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edgar Schmued,although a US citizen, was born in Germany. He was a design engineer for North American Aviation and is usually given primary credit for the Mustang design. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the explanation berg. Ive got an old vidio (P-51 Mustang!) from the late 70s or early 80s that has an interview with Kindleburg talking about designing the oil cooler for cold waether starts, maybee I got it mixed up. I'll check it after the Steelers-Jags game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ratsack
01-05-2008, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The V1710 powered A 36 was ... every bit as good (if not better) than the Merlin engined P51 at those heights.
...

I don't believe it. Comparative data, please.

cheers,
Ratsack

scaredycat1
01-05-2008, 08:57 PM
Mustang History


In 1937, aircraft engineer and president of North American Aviation James H. "Dutch" Kindleberger made a trip to Germany to see some of the finest aircraft being built at that time by the German Luftwaffe. While there, Dutch examined the planes and their components, paying close attention to the advanced fighter aircraft. He recognized that nobody else in the world was building aircraft this well. On the way home, Dutch imagined in his mind a fighter that he would like to build for his company.

At the onset of WWII in 1940, Britain was up to her knees in desperation. The German Luftwaffe demanded the best that the Royal Air Force (RAF) had to offer, both in machine and pilot. The Spitfire was a fine plane, and was in heavy demand. Being shorthanded of planes, the RAF requested Curtiss Aircraft Corp. to build the tough and durable P-40 fighter for England. Curtiss simply could not do this due to production being at full strength already. The RAF then offered to contract Dutch Kindleberger to build P-40's under license of Curtiss. Dutch, being a shrewd business man, would not build another company's fighter, thus, he offered to build an entirely new and superior fighter in just 120 days. 120 days! Dutch had already designed the plane in his mind, and, since the RAF had no other alternatives, they accepted the offer. Before the end of 1940, Dutch had ready the first prototype fighter which was termed NA73X. Testing went well, and it was found that the plane performed well, although only as a low level fighter, with its American Allison V-12 engine.

During 1941, a British pilot who flew the new plane, then termed P-51A, said that the plane handled very well, was sleek, and had very nice Laminar-Flow wings, and had the potential to be much faster, more efficient, with a higher ceiling were it to be given a better engine. The pilot recommended testing the plane with a Rolls Royce Merlin V-12 engine. Rolls Royce had been in the business of building engines for a long time, and they were very good at it. Thus, the plane underwent new testing with a new engine, and it was found that the Merlin far out-performed the Allison. So, the new version of the plane, P-51 B, received the new engine in 1942.

The Army Air Corps had also been using the P-51A with the Allison engine as a low-attack, ground support fighter named the "Apache" A-36. Many of the ground crew and pilots of this plane gave it great compliments. It was dependable, sleek, and convenient to work on. The Army Air Corps heard of the engine change, and took interest by testing the plane with the new engine.


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In the early days of combat for the P-51, a few weaknesses were discovered. English pilots often left their planes out at night in order to be ready for an emergency call to fly up and meet enemy attacks. England had a superb early warning system consisting of a radar system sophisticated enough to calculate altitude and number of approaching enemy planes. They then scrambled small airbases to equally meet the threat. When the English pilots put pressure to the oil coolers with stiff cold oil, problems developed. Thus, a newly designed oil cooler had to be made.

While strafing low-altitude targets, it was discovered that the scoop, underneath the plane, which housed the oil cooler, would pick up small debris capable of puncturing the cooler, which, in turn, would cause oil to leak out. Once gone, lack of oil caused engine failure, and the plane would go down.

To counteract these weaknesses, aircraft engineer James Sullivan redesigned the oil cooler such that the oil came in at a different angle, to handle stiff, cold oil, and then divided the oil cooler into several compartments containing spring valves that would close and seal off a compartment if it were to lose pressure. These modifications were successful.

While the Army Air Corps was testing the P-51 with the new Merlin engine, they discovered that the plane performed much better. With a better engine that had a superior supercharger, the plane went a whopping 437mph, and was nicknamed the "Mustang" for its speed. In addition to the more advantageous fighter characteristics of being faster, more powerful, with a higher ceiling, the Mustang consumed about of the fuel used by a Pratt & Whitney R-2800 radial engine that powered the current P-47 fighter, which had a very short range. These winning traits began to make the Mustang a very popular idea as the new superfighter for the AAF.

When the US joined the war in 1941, the Army Air Corps took on a plan called "strategic daylight bombing." This meant that B-17 heavy bombers would take to the German skies in broad daylight so that they could see specific military targets (war production facilities) and bomb that target only. The B-17's did have armament, but were a lesser match to the Luftwaffe fighters that swarmed in on them with 20mm cannons blazing. These attacks, on average, downed 20% (1 of every 5) of bombers on each mission. This meant that 10 men would face death or imprisonment, greatly decreasing morale among B-17 airmen (see the 1949 film "12 o'clock high" w/gregory peck). The large, non-aerodynamic gas-guzzling P-47 fighters of that time were simply too inefficient to escort bombers all the way to the target, fight, and return. They simply couldn't - they would run out of gas.


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After having tested the modified plane, the Army Air Corps decided to adopt this model, termed the P-51D, as their new superfighter, and had the British Merlin engine mass-produced under license by the Packard Motor Company. This new fighter was introduced to the American pilots in November of 1944, and it really caught their eye. Immediately the pilots began flying the plane and becoming familiar with it, while also adding their personal nose art.

The P-51D had also been fitted with detachable wing fuel tanks that made this fighter a long-range one. Thus, the P-51 became the first fighter capable of escorting heavy bombers to distant targets, such as in Germany, fight if necessary, and still return home. This was a great need for bombers, because of their 20% loss rate to Luftwaffe fighters.

Even though the crew chief would turn through 12 blades (same as number of engine cylinders) before starting to insure lubrication and engine readiness, the P-51's always took off long after the bombers had taken off for a mission - even after the bombers were forming up. The P-51 pilots rose early, had breakfast, and then met in the "ready room" prior to escort duty. Generally, P-51's took off in pairs, and then formed up in fours to fly a "finger formation." Holding up four fingers (minus thumb) showed this formation. The leader was the farthest forward, with a wingman beside him. Then the element leader had his wingman. This is the formation that was utilized until enemy fighters were seen, and then they would split up for combat. The B-17 bombers termed "Big Friends" were escorted by the fighters termed "Little Friends."

In combat with German Luftwaffe fighters, the P-51D proved to be significantly superior to the ME109, both in speed and handling, but only slightly superior to the FW190. In the latter case, the pilots' experience and skills determined the outcome. Eventually the P-51 won air superiority over Germany, and on missions, the P-51's would "drop to the deck" and begin strafing ground targets (planes, trains, trucks, etc.) When Herman Goering, the head of the Luftwaffe, saw the gallant and sleek P-51 over Berlin he said, "The war is lost."

A very unique squadron of pilots existed that flew P-51's. These pilots were all African-American/negro. They had the same skills and talents as other P-51 pilots, but had a different skin color, so were thus discriminated against. In proving their skills, the black pilots utilized a different strategy while escorting bombers. They stayed with their box of bombers, and did not chase after fighters, as white pilots did, since a kill earned money and prestige. Hence, the Tuskeegee Airmen were preferred by bomber pilots as escorts because of their impeccable protection, as skin color no longer made a difference to the B-17 pilots, as it shouldn't have to begin with.

Ratsack
01-05-2008, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by scaredycat1:
Mustang History


In 1937, aircraft engineer and president of North American Aviation James H. "Dutch" Kindleberger made a trip to Germany to see some of the finest aircraft being built at that time by the German Luftwaffe. While there, Dutch examined the planes and their components, paying close attention to the advanced fighter aircraft. He recognized that nobody else in the world was building aircraft this well. On the way home, Dutch imagined in his mind a fighter that he would like to build for his company.

At the onset of WWII in 1940, Britain was up to her knees in desperation. The German Luftwaffe demanded the best that the Royal Air Force (RAF) had to offer, both in machine and pilot. The Spitfire was a fine plane, and was in heavy demand. Being shorthanded of planes, the RAF requested Curtiss Aircraft Corp. to build the tough and durable P-40 fighter for England. Curtiss simply could not do this due to production being at full strength already. The RAF then offered to contract Dutch Kindleberger to build P-40's under license of Curtiss. Dutch, being a shrewd business man, would not build another company's fighter, thus, he offered to build an entirely new and superior fighter in just 120 days. 120 days! Dutch had already designed the plane in his mind, and, since the RAF had no other alternatives, they accepted the offer. Before the end of 1940, Dutch had ready the first prototype fighter which was termed NA73X. Testing went well, and it was found that the plane performed well, although only as a low level fighter, with its American Allison V-12 engine.

During 1941, a British pilot who flew the new plane, then termed P-51A, said that the plane handled very well, was sleek, and had very nice Laminar-Flow wings, and had the potential to be much faster, more efficient, with a higher ceiling were it to be given a better engine. The pilot recommended testing the plane with a Rolls Royce Merlin V-12 engine. Rolls Royce had been in the business of building engines for a long time, and they were very good at it. Thus, the plane underwent new testing with a new engine, and it was found that the Merlin far out-performed the Allison. So, the new version of the plane, P-51 B, received the new engine in 1942.

The Army Air Corps had also been using the P-51A with the Allison engine as a low-attack, ground support fighter named the "Apache" A-36. Many of the ground crew and pilots of this plane gave it great compliments. It was dependable, sleek, and convenient to work on. The Army Air Corps heard of the engine change, and took interest by testing the plane with the new engine.


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In the early days of combat for the P-51, a few weaknesses were discovered. English pilots often left their planes out at night in order to be ready for an emergency call to fly up and meet enemy attacks. England had a superb early warning system consisting of a radar system sophisticated enough to calculate altitude and number of approaching enemy planes. They then scrambled small airbases to equally meet the threat. When the English pilots put pressure to the oil coolers with stiff cold oil, problems developed. Thus, a newly designed oil cooler had to be made.

While strafing low-altitude targets, it was discovered that the scoop, underneath the plane, which housed the oil cooler, would pick up small debris capable of puncturing the cooler, which, in turn, would cause oil to leak out. Once gone, lack of oil caused engine failure, and the plane would go down.

To counteract these weaknesses, aircraft engineer James Sullivan redesigned the oil cooler such that the oil came in at a different angle, to handle stiff, cold oil, and then divided the oil cooler into several compartments containing spring valves that would close and seal off a compartment if it were to lose pressure. These modifications were successful.

While the Army Air Corps was testing the P-51 with the new Merlin engine, they discovered that the plane performed much better. With a better engine that had a superior supercharger, the plane went a whopping 437mph, and was nicknamed the "Mustang" for its speed. In addition to the more advantageous fighter characteristics of being faster, more powerful, with a higher ceiling, the Mustang consumed about of the fuel used by a Pratt & Whitney R-2800 radial engine that powered the current P-47 fighter, which had a very short range. These winning traits began to make the Mustang a very popular idea as the new superfighter for the AAF.

When the US joined the war in 1941, the Army Air Corps took on a plan called "strategic daylight bombing." This meant that B-17 heavy bombers would take to the German skies in broad daylight so that they could see specific military targets (war production facilities) and bomb that target only. The B-17's did have armament, but were a lesser match to the Luftwaffe fighters that swarmed in on them with 20mm cannons blazing. These attacks, on average, downed 20% (1 of every 5) of bombers on each mission. This meant that 10 men would face death or imprisonment, greatly decreasing morale among B-17 airmen (see the 1949 film "12 o'clock high" w/gregory peck). The large, non-aerodynamic gas-guzzling P-47 fighters of that time were simply too inefficient to escort bombers all the way to the target, fight, and return. They simply couldn't - they would run out of gas.


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Mustang History


After having tested the modified plane, the Army Air Corps decided to adopt this model, termed the P-51D, as their new superfighter, and had the British Merlin engine mass-produced under license by the Packard Motor Company. This new fighter was introduced to the American pilots in November of 1944, and it really caught their eye. Immediately the pilots began flying the plane and becoming familiar with it, while also adding their personal nose art.

The P-51D had also been fitted with detachable wing fuel tanks that made this fighter a long-range one. Thus, the P-51 became the first fighter capable of escorting heavy bombers to distant targets, such as in Germany, fight if necessary, and still return home. This was a great need for bombers, because of their 20% loss rate to Luftwaffe fighters.

Even though the crew chief would turn through 12 blades (same as number of engine cylinders) before starting to insure lubrication and engine readiness, the P-51's always took off long after the bombers had taken off for a mission - even after the bombers were forming up. The P-51 pilots rose early, had breakfast, and then met in the "ready room" prior to escort duty. Generally, P-51's took off in pairs, and then formed up in fours to fly a "finger formation." Holding up four fingers (minus thumb) showed this formation. The leader was the farthest forward, with a wingman beside him. Then the element leader had his wingman. This is the formation that was utilized until enemy fighters were seen, and then they would split up for combat. The B-17 bombers termed "Big Friends" were escorted by the fighters termed "Little Friends."

In combat with German Luftwaffe fighters, the P-51D proved to be significantly superior to the ME109, both in speed and handling, but only slightly superior to the FW190. In the latter case, the pilots' experience and skills determined the outcome. Eventually the P-51 won air superiority over Germany, and on missions, the P-51's would "drop to the deck" and begin strafing ground targets (planes, trains, trucks, etc.) When Herman Goering, the head of the Luftwaffe, saw the gallant and sleek P-51 over Berlin he said, "The war is lost."

A very unique squadron of pilots existed that flew P-51's. These pilots were all African-American/negro. They had the same skills and talents as other P-51 pilots, but had a different skin color, so were thus discriminated against. In proving their skills, the black pilots utilized a different strategy while escorting bombers. They stayed with their box of bombers, and did not chase after fighters, as white pilots did, since a kill earned money and prestige. Hence, the Tuskeegee Airmen were preferred by bomber pilots as escorts because of their impeccable protection, as skin color no longer made a difference to the B-17 pilots, as it shouldn't have to begin with.

Nice potted history. On some points of detail:

1. The Brits weren't constrained to buy the NA design. In fact they wrote a very stringent - some might even say punitive - set of conditions into that contract.

2. The first production type was the P-51, not the P-51A. The machine had to have an American air force designation (thus the 'P') in order to to be 'loaned' to the RAF under the Lease Lend agreement.

3. The P-51 was armed with four 0.303s and four 0.50s. The first P-51s for the USAAF were armed with four 20 mm cannon. The USAAF was not particularly interested in the type, preferring the P-38, P-40 and P-47 to a British hand me down.

4. The first attack version for the USAAF was the Apache (subject of this thread).

5. The P-51A was a refined version of the P-51 with a better engine and poorer firepower with only four 0.50s. This became the standard firepower of the P-51 until the D series.

6. The 'test pilot' who flew it in Britain and recommended a Merlin was actually the Rolls Royce test pilot. He specifically wanted a 60s series Merlin with the two speed, two stage supercharger. This was the engine that transformed the performance of the Spitfire from the Mk V to the Mk IX.

7. The American air attache in London was a fervent supporter of the idea, and he lobbied Washington to get North American to do it.

8. The project was undertaken simultaneously in the US and the UK. However, the emphasis was different. In the UK, the RAF was interested in seeing if the P-51 could be converted to take a 60s series Merlin. They had abut 300 of the type on hand if the job was feasible. The North American project was to see if it was feasible to produce a new variant of the P-51 with the Packard equivalent of the 60s series Merlin.

In the event, both proved possible, although the Brits elected to simply buy P-51Bs from North American rather than convert their existing P-51s.

cheers,
Ratsack

scaredycat1
01-05-2008, 09:48 PM
Thanks for the info Ratsack. Not sure what (potted) means, i just copied what I found here (http://www.in-am.org/exhibits/Mustang_history3.asp)
My appollagies for highjacking the thread, was unintentional, just something Im interested in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

R_Target
01-05-2008, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Ratsack:

1. The Brits weren't constrained to buy the NA design. In fact they wrote a very stringent - some might even say punitive - set of conditions into that contract.

Can you elaborate on that? What were the conditions?

M_Gunz
01-05-2008, 10:10 PM
They came to buy P-40's but Curtiss was booked solid so the idea was to have NA make licensed
P-40's. The Brits knew about P-40's and then NA offered "something better" except that it
didn't exist. Hence the conditions since if NA didn't pull it off then months would have been
wasted.

R_Target
01-05-2008, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
They came to buy P-40's but Curtiss was booked solid so the idea was to have NA make licensed
P-40's. The Brits knew about P-40's and then NA offered "something better" except that it
didn't exist. Hence the conditions since if NA didn't pull it off then months would have been
wasted.

That was my understanding too. Also, the British dictated the arming requirements and required NAA to purchase P-40 data from Curtis-Wright.

Ratsack
01-05-2008, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by scaredycat1:
Thanks for the info Ratsack. Not sure what (potted) means...

It's a colloquialism meaning 'small' or 'short'. As in the potted version of a plant is usually smaller than the one in the ground. In this context the word 'brief' would do.

cheers,
Ratsack

Ratsack
01-05-2008, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
They came to buy P-40's but Curtiss was booked solid so the idea was to have NA make licensed
P-40's. The Brits knew about P-40's and then NA offered "something better" except that it
didn't exist. Hence the conditions since if NA didn't pull it off then months would have been
wasted.

That was my understanding too. Also, the British dictated the arming requirements and required NAA to purchase P-40 data from Curtis-Wright. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The time frame was part of the contract. The contract stipulated that NA had to have a prototype flying in the time it would take them to tool-up to produce P-40s. The contract also stipulated that NA buy the P-40 data, and get ready to produce them. This was the fall back if the NAX73 proved inadequate.

So in terms of risk, the way the British purchasing commission wrote the contract ensured that North American carried all of the risk. This is now standard practice in Government contracts, with tendering parties required to take out every sort of indemnity insurance, blah blah blah, etc, etc. It was far less the norm in in those days.

cheers,
Ratsack

R_Target
01-05-2008, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
The time frame was part of the contract. The contract stipulated that NA had to have a prototype flying in the time it would take them to tool-up to produce P-40s. The contract also stipulated that NA buy the P-40 data, and get ready to produce them. This was the fall back if the NAX73 proved inadequate.


Oh yeah, the time limit slipped my mind for a second. There were also plans for a "backup" wing in case the NACA one didn't work out.

R_Target
01-05-2008, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The V1710 powered A 36 was excellent at low to mid altitudes, and every bit as good (if not better) than the Merlin engined P51 at those heights.

Everything that I've seen indicates a regular Allison P-51 meeting or beating the Merlin P-51 at low and medium altitudes, but the A-36 looks to be about 10mph slower.

Above maybe 13,000 ft though, the Merlin's the big winner.

Copperhead311th
01-06-2008, 02:24 AM
FYI guys the A-36 model was DONE for FB shortly after AEP came out. I forget the modelers name but i had a copy of it on my HD that since has sadly crashed. it was done. didn't quite pass the Oleg test but it was done. would have been the 20mm varriant & .50 cal varriant.
I helped with some of the research for the modeler.

Copperhead311th
01-06-2008, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scaredycat1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Oh well, the pony got designed by a German, no real surprise here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Anyways, the story behind the A-36 is that the USAAF allready had the P-38, the P-39 and the P-40 and there wasn't any more budget for yet another fighter. But there was still a budget for dive bombers. Just after the blitz-krieg, suddenly everybody wanted dive bombers. So a clever solution was worked ou between the NA company and the officer charged with aquaring (spelling??) new aircraft for the USAAF.

That's how the first Mustangs entered the American air force.

Im a little confused, Dutch Kindleburg was the designer of the A36- P51?
Intersting topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edgar Schmued,although a US citizen, was born in Germany. He was a design engineer for North American Aviation and is usually given primary credit for the Mustang design. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edgar Schmued wasn't a German. He may have been born there, he may have been ethnically german, but once he obtained leagle citizenship in the US he is officialy an AMERICAN. As are any froigen nationals who apply for and recive it.
and how old was he when he imigraited here?
it pisses me off every time i see someone cliam the Mustang was designed by a German.

Ratsack
01-06-2008, 04:06 AM
Yeah, and the P-47 was designed by a Russian, too!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ratsack

wintergoose
01-06-2008, 04:55 AM
The A-36, dubbed "Apache" by NAA (though not adopted officially by the USAAF), was developed from the Mustang I in response to a USAAF requirement for a high-speed dive bomber. Air Force officials noted the success of the Junkers Ju-87 "Stuka" and developed the requirement to meet the needs of the Army to support its ground forces. The high speed of the A-36 required that it incorporate air brakes in the wings to limit its dive speed to 390mph to improve accuracy. The A-36 proved to be very successful in its service career flying 23,373 combat sortied and delivering over 8,000 tons of ordnance on targets in the Mediterranean theaters. A total of 84 enemy aircraft were shot down and 17 more straffed on the ground for a loss of 177 A-36's to enemy action. Though that is a loss of over 30% of the airframes built it is indicative of the dangerous and difficult missions it performed so successfully.
************************
So the A-36 was not used as a figther and mostly newer saw aircobat.
It was armed with 2pcs .50 guns in each wing and 2 .50 guns in the lover noce part.

berg417448
01-06-2008, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
Yeah, and the P-47 was designed by a Russian, too!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ratsack

And just to further complicate things the Ju-88 was designed by an American!

Sergio_101
01-06-2008, 04:52 PM
A common error Rat....
Not .303 cal guns.
And I doubt the Brits re-fitted the P-51/MustangI with .303s as the .30 cal M1 (.30-06)
was more powerful and in plentiful supply.

Sergio