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View Full Version : MSCFS4 coming after all?



msalama
05-16-2007, 04:36 AM
I've heard some rumours lately of Microsoft getting back to the CFS business, i.e. they're allegedly working on a new combat sim ATM. Any truth to this IYO?

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 05:21 AM
!!!!????

Ratsack
05-16-2007, 05:23 AM
Oh, please, please, let it be baseless rumour!

Ratsack

msalama
05-16-2007, 05:33 AM
Hey, it probably is a baseless rumour. I just thought I'd ask, that's all...

stalkervision
05-16-2007, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
Oh, please, please, let it be baseless rumour!

Ratsack

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

x6BL_Brando
05-16-2007, 05:38 AM
Any truth to this IYO?

More like 'any point in this', surely? Three duds in a row must make it unlikely we'll see another on the shelves.

B

joeap
05-16-2007, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Any truth to this IYO?

More like 'any point in this', surely? Three duds in a row must make it unlikely we'll see another on the shelves.

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1 and 2 were hardly duds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif 3 well of course.

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 05:54 AM
Right. CFS2 was certainly a fine sim until IL-2. Very fine, indeed. Blended flight sim and combat flight sim better than IL-2 because it had more detailed engine controls. 3 Was an out and out stinker. There were some rumors circulating a year ago FSX would have a "secret" combat capability, thus, once and for all ending the split between combat and flight sim at Msoft.

reisen52
05-16-2007, 05:59 AM
Maybe the are talking about MAW releasing on June 10th?

http://www.medairwar.com

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-16-2007, 06:00 AM
Maddox put the smack-down on the MSCFS series, and with the streamlined market that this genre offers (thus limited profitability) and MS business history, it would be a better bet that they (MS) would more likely buy 1:C MG and absorb them into the borg collective than produce a new CFS.

My .02c


TB

major_setback
05-16-2007, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by reisen52:
Maybe the are talking about MAW releasing on June 10th?

http://www.medairwar.com

What do they mean "...Stand-Alone Add-On" which is it?
Stand-alone isn't the same as Add-On is it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif If it's stand-alone then you don't need to buy CFS3, or what?

Quote from the site:
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">"MAW is a standalone application based on the CFS3 product by Microsoft. You will need the original Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3 loaded onto your computer and you also need to get the CFS v3.1 patch available at the official Microsoft 'CFS3 Insider' site."</span>

reisen52
05-16-2007, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by major_setback:
What do they mean "...Stand-Alone Add-On" which is it?

Stand-alone isn't the same as Add-On is it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif If it's stand-alone then you don't need to buy CFS3, or what?

It is their way of saying you need the fully patched CFS3 on your system to install MAW but after that you can delete it. Keeps MS off their collective case for piracy I guess.

F19_Orheim
05-16-2007, 06:35 AM
whats up with the neg talk?

If Microsoft is planning to do a new comabt sim.. GREAT! the more the merrier. Good decent competition has never harmed anyone... just pushed the developers involved to strive to be better than the next. As mentioned so many times before, this genre is small, and I can only see benefits with Microsoft "promoting" the genre.

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 06:35 AM
That is Orwellian double-talk at its best. Anyway, you have to have CFS3, or know somebody who has it, to get MAW running. I don't know if it will be worth the effort if it still has the "Piper Cub stall" of CFS3. Did they mend this? OFF didn't fix this.

Orheim is 100% right. Msoft bashing is banal.

Bearcat99
05-16-2007, 06:36 AM
I wish them well.... Frankly the 1% guys and all the other modders out there are who made CFS3 what it is today. Out of the box it was the most disappointing piece of software I ever bought. AFAIC any WWII sim would have to be better than FB4.08 for me to even bother with it as my time is limited so I don't really have the time to diddle around in some other venue that satisfies my sim jones less than this.

Chris0382
05-16-2007, 06:41 AM
MS Still needs to concentrate on a good practical OS. They havent got it right since DOS 6.0.

reisen52
05-16-2007, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
That is Orwellian double-talk at its best. Did they mend this? OFF didn't fix this.

Whatever http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif On the flight model I have no idea other then the 1% guys are doing MAW & had nothing to do with OFF.

Is that a good or bad thing, who knows?

But I expect to find out on the 10th as, given the aircraft list they posted at Netwings & Outhouse, it seems to be worthwhile enough to me to checkout.

Post #14 has the list.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=42782

han freak solo
05-16-2007, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by Chris0382:
MS Still needs to concentrate on a good practical OS. They havent got it right since DOS 6.0.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-16-2007, 07:39 AM
As convoluted as the tweaking process was/is for CFS3 and its expansions/add-ons, much of the same could be said about FB (mostly prior to the 4.07 DVD release). The patching process, conf.ini adjustments all the different tweaks for NVidia and ATI users, etc,...

CFS3 did a few things well. They support 6dof, they have really good sound effects, their land textures have many positive qualities, but the fun aspect and smooth gameplay eliminate any possibility of it being more than it is right now.


TB

msalama
05-16-2007, 07:51 AM
...if it still has the "Piper Cub stall" of CFS3. Did they mend this? OFF didn't fix this.

Well, someone (http://shockwaveproductions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5) at least _claims_ the engine is capable of modelling complex stalls. True or false? You tell me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But FWIW I personally don't believe they'll enter this genre anymore. Got burned too bad w/ CFS3 I think...

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 08:22 AM
MAW looks incredible. If they fixed that stupid stall, they could have a real winner on their hands. Somewhat of a pity its coming so soon before BOB because BOB will blow it out the door. If this had been three years ago! As Churchill said "the terrible ifs!"

Bearcat99
05-16-2007, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
But FWIW I personally don't believe they'll enter this genre anymore. Got burned too bad w/ CFS3 I think...

They didn't just get burned.. they set themselves on fire. With their experience in flight sims and the resources at their disposal there was no excuse for CFS3 being such a poor product out of the box. None at all.

reisen52
05-16-2007, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
because BOB will blow it out the door.

As it should.

I would expect something I am paying maybe $40-50 for to be a lot better then an application put together by a bunch of hobbyists in their spare time that I will get for free.

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 09:12 AM
Yes, I sometimes marvel at the futility of these projects because the hobbyist spend years making incremental improvements in roaring duds, and, by the time they are through, a big company has made a real world beater which throws their effort in the dustbin.

crazyivan1970
05-16-2007, 09:43 AM
Competition is good, we can only benefit from it. It always brings out the best... so why not. If MS wants to take on CFS again, by all means, good luck to them.

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 09:53 AM
Have you tried THEATRE OF WAR yet, Ivan? I think it's fantastic.

crazyivan1970
05-16-2007, 09:58 AM
I have a demo leitmotiv http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But... dont really have time to sit down and get into it lol. Besides all this brainstorming nightmare at work doesnt leave me any brain power by the time i get home http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Is there western release? I would like to purchase DVD or whatever it is and eventually get into it.

ploughman
05-16-2007, 09:59 AM
Ah, Theatre of War. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

My s41tb0x of a computer won't run it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Shame really as it's right up my Via Principalis.

AFJ_rsm
05-16-2007, 10:06 AM
I'd say CFS4 is a definite possibility, but it won't come at least until 2008

http://www.fsinsider.com/team/Pages/BlogExcerptCat.aspx

Quote:
"We really want to do combat again, but we didn't feel we could do that justice (i.e. do it right) in the timeline we have for this expansion pack."

Take into consideration the FSX Expansion Pack is planned for a 2007 holiday release.

leitmotiv
05-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Yes, there is a Western version from Battlefront here:

https://www.combatmission2.com/tow_order.html

I don't have much time, either, but being able to play the 1940 French is a kick for me.

That is tough, Ploughman. It is a magnitude better than the rather static Battlefront Combat Command tactical simulators which were, admittedly, the world's best in terms of detail. You can set everything up so your POV is basically that of the company commander or battalion commander literally on the ground and you try to manage things as all hell busts loose around you. I haven't "mastered" this by any means but the learning is really fun, believe me.

msalama
05-16-2007, 10:20 AM
...CFS3 being such a poor product out of the box. None at all.

Well that's what you get underestimating your target clientele as badly as they did. I can imagine the thinking in Redmond: CFSs = bang bang = kiddie shoot-'em-ups where everyone just wants to pwnZ0r and to hell w/ realism and accuracy! Right? Right???

Wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ploughman
05-16-2007, 10:22 AM
Yes Leit, it blows. This year is where my machine dropped well off the 'minimum system requirements' for new releases. I've had a few goes on CM2 in the last few weeks and quite enjoyed it despite it's plodding nature. Sounds like ToW is everything I ever wanted Combat Mission's product to evolve into. Too bad por moi that my machine's well past it but I'll be like a kid in a candy store when I get a new machine for SoW. Oleg's BoB, Knights of the Sky, Theatre of War, etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ShrikeHawk
05-16-2007, 10:31 AM
If they do work on CFS4, I hope they have the smarts to put in support for carrier ops. That was the biggest disappointment for me in CFS3.

I stuck with CFS2 for a long time even though I already had IL2 & FB on my harddrive. Fell out of the simming for awhile. Was waiting...and waiting for MAW to finish. But Pacific Fighters, with it's carrier support, brought me back to IL2, and whole-heartedly I might add.

slappedsilly
05-16-2007, 10:38 AM
I wish M$ would team up with Shockwave and make a combat sim. A lot of models are already done, all we need is some damage modeling, bullets, explosions etc.

crazyivan1970
05-16-2007, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by slappedsilly:
I wish M$ would team up with Shockwave and make a combat sim. A lot of models are already done, all we need is some damage modeling, bullets, explosions etc.

That`s the hardest part... to make it all work. Not saying that modelling is easy...

Aaron_GT
05-16-2007, 11:18 AM
As I see it there are five basic areas for a combat sim:

1. Attacking mass formations (Battle of Britain, operations over the Reich). It's very intensive stuff. EAW did it pretty well.

2. Dogfights at a reasonable altitude.

3. Moving mud.

4. High altitude bombing

5. Night operations.

CFS 3 is ok at (2) with the Shockwave add ons. The bomb sights are too poor for (4). EAW did (1) very well. The CFS3 ground unit damage model is terrible so it does (3) badly, IL2 does it well. Nothing does (5) very well because PC monitors just aren't very good for it.

So what will CFS4 aim for? Or BoB:SOW?

ploughman
05-16-2007, 11:32 AM
Don't forget naval aviation, carriers and anti-shipping sort of thing. There's also the big picture stuff like campaigns, radar, co-ordination of assets and so on.

crazyivan1970
05-16-2007, 11:39 AM
When you look at all the elements combined... you actually understad the complexity of flight sim... holy... ahem.

faustnik
05-16-2007, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:

They didn't just get burned.. they set themselves on fire. With their experience in flight sims and the resources at their disposal there was no excuse for CFS3 being such a poor product out of the box. None at all.

Exactly, I can't see them trying that again.

Chivas
05-16-2007, 12:07 PM
If they made a CFS4 I would buy it just to support the industry and try it for myself to see how good it is. You can't believe any of the reviewers. I really enjoyed CFS1 and 2 and was totally disappointed in CFS3.

CFS1 and 2 code was well optimized for on-line play, but the code of CFS3 could barely run on one machine. The FSX code looks like it may have the same problem. They would have alot of optimizing to do, to add all the features a combat sim would require.

Old_Canuck
05-16-2007, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
whats up with the neg talk?

If Microsoft is planning to do a new comabt sim.. GREAT! the more the merrier. Good decent competition has never harmed anyone... just pushed the developers involved to strive to be better than the next. As mentioned so many times before, this genre is small, and I can only see benefits with Microsoft "promoting" the genre.

I agree with you about "the more the merrier" regarding competition but Microsoft's business strategy does not fit our expectations for quality. It seems like all the software they produce (including their operating systems) are designed with inherent flaws that serve to leave the customer with an itch that can only be scratched with their next latest-and-greatest-cure-all-software which we continue to buy because after all ... hope springs eternal in the consumer's mind ... marketing is everything - the goal is to grab the consumer's money and feed them false hopes for a better version in the future. IMAO

WWSpinDry
05-16-2007, 12:21 PM
Got CFS3 as a gift and never bothered to open the shrink wrap. So far as I'm concerned a potential CFS4 is already DoA. Got IL-2/1946, and KotS is coming. Don't need M$.

Old_Canuck
05-16-2007, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
But FWIW I personally don't believe they'll enter this genre anymore. Got burned too bad w/ CFS3 I think...

They didn't just get burned.. they set themselves on fire. With their experience in flight sims and the resources at their disposal there was no excuse for CFS3 being such a poor product out of the box. None at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No excuse indeed, Bearcat. Those dudes are NOT stupid. CFS3 was prematurely released around the same time as IL2 FB with a huge marketing blitz and the intent was probably to take away market share from the competition whom they would have loved to buy out instead. If M$ ever takes over 1C you can say good bye to quality flight sims. Others are working hard to produce quality flight sims but I'll eat my LCDs if M$ ever produces a sim that passes muster on THIS forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
05-16-2007, 02:46 PM
And it isnt because they cant.. they wont.

slipBall
05-16-2007, 02:52 PM
MS lacks the pashion that Oleg has, they could never even come close to 1c....I hope that they never get their grubby hands on Maddox

reisen52
05-16-2007, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
And it isnt because they cant.. they wont.

Agree:

The return on investment (ROI) for combat flight sims is to low to get approval in any big public company today. How many can name any biggies like EA & Microprose that were in combat flight sims in the glory days that are still in them?

We can still all name the really good sims over the past 15 years that had high sales for combat oriented sims & many of us still play them but where are the companies who made them & what are they producing now?

Aaron_GT
05-16-2007, 03:03 PM
Don't forget naval aviation, carriers and anti-shipping sort of thing.

That's just ground pounding with runny ground :-)

reisen52
05-16-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
MS lacks the pashion that Oleg has


MS does not require any passion at all for combat flight sims. All they needed to do is hire a team that does have the passion; which they won't because there is no money in it. We might not like this fact but the shareholders do.

slipBall
05-16-2007, 03:10 PM
You are a good speller! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-16-2007, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
MS lacks the pashion that Oleg has, they could never even come close to 1c....I hope that they never get their grubby hands on Maddox

I agree with you but MS does have some cool stuff our sim does not. Although I highly doubt I could be converted from Oleg's work it is still good and to have competition. Im just guessing but I bet Oleg is more driven when he has someone to compete with...thats just human nature. Remember how breathtaking the original IL-2 when you first loaded up? Good sim or not it is always good to see more games in the genre and overall is very healthy for our beloved hobby. IMO

S!

Scen
05-16-2007, 03:25 PM
CFS3= Polished Turd.

ploughman
05-16-2007, 03:29 PM
Oh I don't know. Seems to me Maddox may be enroute to creating a convincing virtual world for crewed gameplay that has a focus on reality; historical, and physical. An environment like that, and the engine in which it exists looks like being worth a worth quid. I'll be spending quite a bit of mine on it and the peripherals in the next few years, that's for sure.

msalama
05-16-2007, 03:35 PM
Hmmm... M$ getting back to the genre or not the only thing I can see giving Oleg a run for his money is KOTS w/ the D-Strict engine, regardless of the earlier context / scenario! Looks _very_ convincing so far, that bugger...

ploughman
05-16-2007, 03:40 PM
True, everytime I look at KoTS I think, 'Woh, that's next level.' I also think, 'that's what Oleg's doing but he's not telling us, yet. I like that he keeps on saying things like 'it will be like cinema,' by which I hope he doesn't mean everything'll go Michael Bey.

F19_Orheim
05-16-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Im just guessing but I bet Oleg is more driven when he has someone to compete with...thats just human nature.

My point exactly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just look at the few interviews we have seen, from that UK game show for example. When questions are asked about comparisons with other sims, he gives us a wide grin and says "we make it much better"http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Same thing when he answers Questions in here. Sound competition makes all to work harder.

msalama
05-16-2007, 03:55 PM
...by which I hope he doesn't mean everything'll go Michael Bey.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif Should hope not!

Don't think so, though. My prediction is that we'll see lots of... eh... polished grit and grime if you know what I mean http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BrotherVoodoo
05-16-2007, 04:47 PM
Being a flight sim *****, I would buy it. Who knows, maybe it would even be good. CFS1 was great for the time maybe we could be suprised. But.....I'm certainly not holding my breath.

faustnik
05-16-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by BrotherVoodoo:
Being a flight sim *****, I would buy it. Who knows, maybe it would even be good. CFS1 was great for the time maybe we could be suprised. But.....I'm certainly not holding my breath.

I learned my lesson. I will wait this time, until I hear it is worth buying.

Monty_Thrud
05-16-2007, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Scen:
CFS3= Polished Turd.

Incorrect!...there was no polishing involved. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Old_Canuck
05-16-2007, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
CFS3= Polished Turd.

Incorrect!...there was no polishing involved. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif Hell hath no fury like a flight simmer scorned. All said, like BrotherVoodoo, I tend to prostitute good reason from time to time and come home with a flight sim I probably shouldn't have bought. Not worried about the quality of KotS or SoW BoB and will probably buy BoB WoV too just to support their effort. CFS1, 2 and even 3 are still in storage for the sake of the good moments they offered but CFS3 can stay in the freezer until the next time I yank it out to shout at it -- mental therapy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

ploughman
05-16-2007, 06:27 PM
Hell hath no fury like a flight simmer scorned.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Man, how true is that. Once burned, forever shy.

Swivet
05-16-2007, 08:39 PM
"Microsoft getting back to the CFS business"


Great! 4 new $60.00 beer coasters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Bearcat99
05-16-2007, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by msalama:
Hmmm... M$ getting back to the genre or not the only thing I can see giving Oleg a run for his money is KOTS w/ the D-Strict engine, regardless of the earlier context / scenario! Looks _very_ convincing so far, that bugger...

Even KoTS wont give SoW a run... folks will be more inclined to fly both moreso than one or the other I would think... its like burgers or chicken... and you gotta eat every day so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

msalama
05-16-2007, 11:54 PM
and you gotta eat every day so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OK, true. So maybe because of the earlier context / scenario Gennadich won't actually give Oleg a run for his money, in that both are combat sims, yes, but not direct competitors per se...

Yeah, I'll likely get them both myself too for that matter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Blood_Splat
05-17-2007, 07:09 AM
God someone please stop them. http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif