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View Full Version : Explanation of the trim on slider .



XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:58 AM
Ok I admit, Im slow to examine new things!!! Especially if they seem "über ".

I've never tested the "trim on slider thing" and dont want to.The term has been around for a while now.
IS TRIM ON SLIDER A JOKE !!!!?????



I read in an interview with finnish pilots who flew the 109 g2 and g6(cant find it for the moment)where a pilot
claimed that using trim to level out in a highspeed dive would brake the wings off.instead u should pull as hard as u could.

comments?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As i understand it trim normally is used to get the plane to fly straight in different speeds(= so the nose dont pith up or down).

And also when taking of with a heavy loaded plane bcause the elevator bleads so much speed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MY Question:

Can those who use trim on a slider make sharp turns without using the elevator ( = without bleeding speed)?

= pull up in a climb with minimum speedloss?
= doing continuos loops ?(depending on aircraft)?


can it do other things?



Thanks for any answers or/and comments.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:58 AM
Ok I admit, Im slow to examine new things!!! Especially if they seem "über ".

I've never tested the "trim on slider thing" and dont want to.The term has been around for a while now.
IS TRIM ON SLIDER A JOKE !!!!?????



I read in an interview with finnish pilots who flew the 109 g2 and g6(cant find it for the moment)where a pilot
claimed that using trim to level out in a highspeed dive would brake the wings off.instead u should pull as hard as u could.

comments?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As i understand it trim normally is used to get the plane to fly straight in different speeds(= so the nose dont pith up or down).

And also when taking of with a heavy loaded plane bcause the elevator bleads so much speed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MY Question:

Can those who use trim on a slider make sharp turns without using the elevator ( = without bleeding speed)?

= pull up in a climb with minimum speedloss?
= doing continuos loops ?(depending on aircraft)?


can it do other things?



Thanks for any answers or/and comments.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:00 PM
no, no, please no... You have summoned HIM! He iS COMING!!!





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:08 PM
Rayban only made me an Ace and only the Rayban can fully explain trim on the slider as he told me and I'll tell you it takes years to master trim on the slider.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:08 PM
You must not read from the Book of Trim!!!!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:16 PM
Is this r¤ban a cheat ?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:20 PM
Rayban is a Ace not the first Ace but since he became an Ace there hasn't been an Ace like him. Dare you say a cheat
those words do not mix with Rayban in the same sentence.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:31 PM
oh its a person! sorry!


and i saw apost about trim further down
so Ill end it here,

but thnx anyway

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:36 PM
ob_swe wrote:
- oh its a person! sorry!
-
-
- and i saw apost about trim further down
- so Ill end it here,
-
- but thnx anyway

No. It cannot be ended. You have begun the Summoning. You do not know what you have done! He will seek you out ! Flee! FLEEEEE!





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

fluke39
08-09-2003, 01:44 PM
yes i am in no doubt he will be around shortly - (i'm sure he's hunting for a phone box right now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

i will risk a brief explanation before he comes and proves me wrong

i have been to the GD Crypt were all is not as it seems- there are many threads that will ensnare the unwary. - amongst those threads are many on the arcane subject of trim turning - although those that practiced it are now looked on with disgust and disdain. it is said that in the elder days when the speed of deployment was not controlled -mapping the trim to a slider would allow for sharp turns - so sharp it was named the "bat-turn". now many "exploited" - (never call it a cheat as you will be set upon by foul beasts) this black art (at the head of this group of "exploiters" was the nameless one) - it is long known that trim is not really trim in IL2/FB (it just moves the elevator) - therefore as far as i am aware it does bleedeth energy - as it is just the same as moving the elevator - it just moves it further (i think) - although it does not have the power to do the other things you state.
luckily for us the sagely God Oleg created a new version of the world in which speed of deployment is controlled - therefore rendering the black art powerless.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:03 PM
Someone on this forum (sorry, can't remember who) posted a coupla pages out of what seems to be a flight lesson handbook about trim. Modern airplanes move the whole control surface (or at least our F-16's do), where as most of the planes depicted in FB have trim tabs, small secondary flight surfaces at the trailing edges of the aileron, rudder and horizontal stabilizer. These only affect directional control in a small way. That's why it's called trim, and not "aileron pt. 2" or something silly like that. In FB, the whole surface moves, which can get your plane to turn that much quicker, since the greater deflection=greater turns. The trim in FB, however, doesn't increase the chance of a stall. The game doesn't recognize it as an increase to the surface deflection. I'm pretty sure that's why it's called an "exploit" (i.e. cheat, for pete's sake). Am I way off on this?


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!



Message Edited on 08/09/0310:04PM by Aardvark892

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:09 PM
Oh crap, now you know who will turn up and start dribling you know what /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I think we should hunt down and kill the next person that starts a trim thread /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif (joking)

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:58 PM
fluke39 wrote:

- luckily for us the sagely God Oleg created a new
- version of the world in which speed of deployment is
- controlled - therefore rendering the black art
- powerless.

Think again.

Speed of deployment had nothing to do with it. Right now you can still make the incredibly high G turns. In FB they only made it infinitely less precise for the straight and level trimmers. So make no mistake. Those who want to do "bat"turns with trim can still do it.

And the witchhunters who ascribed their losses online to bat turns made with elevator trim are just inexperienced, SA challenged, equipped with a bad connection, or a combination of those. I was once kicked from a server myself because the host believed i used trim in my chaika to consistently outturn his chaika. He musta forgotten that the chaika doesn't even have trim./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Goes to show how quickly suspicions can lead to trimcheat paranoia. In any case, slowing down trim was a bad move to counter any bat turns, because they're still possible in the game.

Trim in IL2 and FB is basically a joke, with a glitch which becomes apparant in the high speed regions. For the effect, it doesn't matter whether you map it to a slider or the keyboard. Trim on a slider is only much easier to operate, but the effect of slidertrim or keyboard trim is the same. So should you have a spare slider free, and you wanna use trim, by all means put it on a slider, coz it's easier to slide than to repeatedly push a button.

At high speeds you can still bat turn to your hearts content be it with keyboard or slider. At low speeds, trim is/was never an issue, or maybe only to the guys who had joysticks with really stiff springs (cougar, X45). I don't have to use trim at all and can still fly handsfree and level. And if i choose to bat turn with trim, i can still do that as well (in the planes that have trim ofcourse).

It boils down to trim being just a gimmick with a high speed "bat" turning glitch. But since the glitch is still in the game, it can be used to good effect for those who see possibilities. It would have been much better had speed of deployment remain as in IL2, but with the glitch fixed. Right now they only botched the trim with the slowdown, without really fixing the glitch.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:04 PM
No! Will NONE listen? You are all just attracting him! His POWER grows ever stronger! There will soon be great wailing and nashing of teeth, much lamentation of the women! etc...

He Who Shall Not Be Named comes! We must fight him! FIGHT! or FLEE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 04:46 PM
LMAO @ SeaFireLIV

I just bursted out laughing at work. Now they think I'm crazy.

Seriously though. This subject comes up all the time and is a scource of frustration for me for a much different reason than most. I'm in the planning stages of building a generic cockpit that will be used for IL2 and LOMAC. I was going to build a trim wheel(s) and use gear reduction to regulate the speed to a more realistic rate. Now thats nerfed. I'll have to change it up now and thats not really a huge deal. The thing is though you have to be careful what you wish. If some people had their way we would forced to fly with the cockpit on all the time because they would cry about unrealistic deflection shots. What happens when I or anyone else builds a cockpit with a LCD projector. There is no option to turn off our coclpit but there would be another cockpit on the wall or screen in front of us because people are so close minded. I don't think this will ever happen and is an extreme example but you get my point.

MS sims enjoy a success that no others do. I may be wrong in this statistic but I think I read somewhere that beyond their OS's and major applications MSFS is next in line as most sold product. The reson for it is the seemingly limitless options that people have explored and developed into truely amazing products. Wouldn't it be nice if IL2 and LOMAC enjoy the same success?

Would I switch back to MS? Absolutly not. IL2's FM's are far superior. We don't have the options with the simulated instrumentation but I'm hopeing someday we will.

If anyone is interested in homebuild cockpits check out www.simpits.org (http://www.simpits.org) Some of the projects links are broken but there is enough fo them working that you can get a good idea of what is possible.

Peace.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:00 PM
The issue to me isn't trim.

The real issue is the ability to pull serious G's with no consequence.


Until they address that, speaking of 'bat turns' with trim is pointless.

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:17 PM
ROFLMAO @ SeaFireLIV

This made me laugh alot! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thanks!

Boos16
249th
RSO

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 07:47 PM
Trim on a slider means putting your elevator trim on an analog control (like your throttle wheel) via the in game HOTAS controller assignments menu.

The throttle wheel of the MSFFB2 works best. Now you can see where the wheel is and move it to where you want it to be, and change its direction while it is moving (all impossible things to do using just the keyboard)

Trim has always been used at high speeds (more than about 300km/h) to be able to move your elevator furthur than someone who wasn't using trim. Noobs like to refer to this as "bat-turns" but aces just call it "the hardest turn possible".

The only thing they did to trim from IL2 to FB was make it so you can't move it as fast. This was such a half-assed solution to whatever problem they were trying to solve (lots of uninformed noobs pm'ing Oleg crying cheat). All it did was make it so nobody has fine control. We can still just recalibrate our sticks and springs and axis settings to fly at near max trim yet level and hands free, able to do those mythological "bat-turns" at will. It was such a pathetic and embarrassing solution to the problem that if you even try to discuss trim in Oleg's ready room, you will be censored. It's like they are trying to do a coverup (aka Area 51 scenario).

Maybe someday they will get it right (but you wouldn't think so if you are banned from even talking about it in Oleg's ready room), but until then the best trim ever was definitley the trim from IL2. It's part (along with the crisp FM) of what made that game a classic. Thus far, FB has just been a buggered add-on with some map candy. This is reflected by the lack of online interest in the game as well compared to the original IL2. You see, people like to have control of their plane. And when you start slugging down their controller interface in an effort to appease a bunch of crying, pm'ing noobs, and make a FM that resembles CFS3 for them as well, the top aces have better things to do than pretend everything is alright. I will still be able to kick anybodies butt, (kind of like Kasparov) but you don't see me around as much because there are better games to play.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 07:55 PM
here he is! see what you did !!! You called for him now he appeared.!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhh hh

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:09 PM
Dnmy wrote:
- fluke39 wrote:
-
-- luckily for us the sagely God Oleg created a new
-- version of the world in which speed of deployment is
-- controlled - therefore rendering the black art
-- powerless.
-
- Think again.
-
- Speed of deployment had nothing to do with it. Right
- now you can still make the incredibly high G turns.
- In FB they only made it infinitely less precise for
- the straight and level trimmers. So make no mistake.
- Those who want to do "bat"turns with trim can still
- do it.
-
- And the witchhunters who ascribed their losses
- online to bat turns made with elevator trim are just
- inexperienced, SA challenged, equipped with a bad
- connection, or a combination of those. I was once
- kicked from a server myself because the host
- believed i used trim in my chaika to consistently
- outturn his chaika. He musta forgotten that the
- chaika doesn't even have trim./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Goes to show how quickly
- suspicions can lead to trimcheat paranoia. In any
- case, slowing down trim was a bad move to counter
- any bat turns, because they're still possible in the
- game.
-
- Trim in IL2 and FB is basically a joke, with a
- glitch which becomes apparant in the high speed
- regions. For the effect, it doesn't matter whether
- you map it to a slider or the keyboard. Trim on a
- slider is only much easier to operate, but the
- effect of slidertrim or keyboard trim is the same.
- So should you have a spare slider free, and you
- wanna use trim, by all means put it on a slider, coz
- it's easier to slide than to repeatedly push a
- button.
-
- At high speeds you can still bat turn to your hearts
- content be it with keyboard or slider. At low
- speeds, trim is/was never an issue, or maybe only to
- the guys who had joysticks with really stiff springs
- (cougar, X45). I don't have to use trim at all and
- can still fly handsfree and level. And if i choose
- to bat turn with trim, i can still do that as well
- (in the planes that have trim ofcourse).
-
-
- It boils down to trim being just a gimmick with a
- high speed "bat" turning glitch. But since the
- glitch is still in the game, it can be used to good
- effect for those who see possibilities. It would
- have been much better had speed of deployment remain
- as in IL2, but with the glitch fixed. Right now they
- only botched the trim with the slowdown, without
- really fixing the glitch.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Deserves another read methinks.

FB did not fix the bat-turn, it just swept under the rug where slugs like RBJ could still find it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:01 PM
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH,,,,,


Agh,,,,,


ugh,,





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:25 AM
OHHHH MYYYY GODDDDD.!!!!!
RBJ IS HERE !!!!!
WE ARE DOOMED! EVRYONE RUN, HIDE BEFORE HE COMES BACK AND POST AGAIN!!!!!
MODS LOCK THIS BEFORE RBJ NEXT INCOMING !!!



HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLL LLLLLPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:42 AM
Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice...

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:13 AM
I have a suggestion that i would like you to consider. How about providing a "trim for level flight" key. This would allow those who cant seem to fine tune the trim to at least trim for level flight at any time based on their altitude and speed. What do you think?

Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:35 AM
Luftwaffe_109 , to who are you talking to?
to RBJ?
then you bother for nothing....

"The show must go on..."
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<center>A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 05:27 AM
Luftwaffe_109, I want to use trim. Afterall, this is a simulation, so I enjoy simulating handling the controls of a real aircraft - I know, I know, it's nothing like the real thing, whatever...

The point is, Auto-Trim which is what you're suggesting does not help the immersion factor. I like the feel of trimming with a rotary for level flight - at least I used to. Now, it's an uphill battle - unless you want to abuse trim in which case you are still free to do so. Slowing down trim did nothing but make it less user-friendly for those of us who actually want to use it properly.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 06:12 AM
RBJ_4 wrote:
- Rayban is a Ace not the first Ace but since he
- became an Ace there hasn't been an Ace like him.
- Dare you say a cheat
- those words do not mix with Rayban in the same
- sentence.
-

My arse Ray your cheating like a dog & now your teaching others how to cheat posting links to 5 year old software so you can exploit holes in the FB simulation

If thats not cheating I dont know what is

You can justify it all you want But we all know the truth

ACE muahahahahahahahahahahah

if cheating qualifies you as an ACE then I guess that you are one llooll


<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

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<center><FONT COLOR="white">
I am He who lives, and was dead
and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 07:38 AM
Ok..let me explain better what the mentally handicapped liar also known as ratbj is trying to push down your throat, reworded to show the truth, for further explanation please check this link:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zbmbx


RayBanJockey should have writen:

- Trim on a slider means putting your elevator trim on
- an analog control (like your throttle wheel) via the
- in game HOTAS controller assignments menu.

That one was correct


-
- any throttle wheel works fine. Now
- you can see where the wheel is and move it to where
- you want it to be, and change its direction while it
- is moving (all impossible things to do using just
- the keyboard)



- Trim has seldom been used at high speeds in real life, the penalty for doing so is many times more dangerous than its benefits (more than
- about 300km/h) to be able to overcome high loads on the control surfaces, but be warned, you most likely will overstress the design limits of the airframe and or lose consciousness due to black out with the consecuent loss of control and most likely turn yourself into a corpse, this does not take much time . everybody
- just call it "the fakest turn possible on arcade mode".
-
- The only thing they did to trim from IL2 to FB was
- make it so you can't move it as fast. This was such
- a half-assed solution to whatever problem they were
- trying to solve (one so called "Ace" began the problem
- ). All it did was make it so nobody
- has fine control. . It was such a
- pathetic and embarrassing solution to the problem created by Ray ban Jockey
-

- Maybe someday they will get it right (but dont bet on that because RBJ will cry like a little girl)), but until
- then the best trim will be the one in FB, with a normal rate of movement. It's part (along with the crisp FM) of what made that game a classic.

You see, people like to have control of their plane in the most realistic way (not like RBJ wants it to be). And
- when you start fumbling down with your controller
- interface in an effort to cheat and play arcadish games , and make a FM that resembles CFS3 for
- them as well, the top pilots have better things to do
- than follow the plain cheating and childish claims of a so called ace.
- but you don't see me around ( RBJ) as much because im a noob and I never play online, 'cause I suck big time.


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 08:39 AM
Luftwaffe_109 wrote:
- I have a suggestion that i would like you to
- consider. How about providing a "trim for level
- flight" key. This would allow those who cant seem to
- fine tune the trim to at least trim for level flight
- at any time based on their altitude and speed. What
- do you think?
-
- Regards,
-
- luftwaffe_109

There already exists such a thing in FB. Set a control to "level stabilizer" NOT level autopilot. You still have trim control with the stabilizer on (at a much reduced rate) but you can get the plane to fly dead on straight and level that way.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:23 PM
Auto trims are a good idea for choices.

Like in AH

- auto level trim
- auto angle trim
- auto speed trim
- combat trim
- manual trim

But they really should make the trim behave like in AH. There if you fly a G10 at high speed, the controls are gonna lock. And if you apply elevator trim to pull out of the dive, you're gonna pull out very very gradually with still the risk of augering in. Pulling out of a similar dive after applying elevator trim in the G10 in FB is as easy as pie. But totally unrealistic.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:38 PM
Can't say I've ever used trim, just the stick.

It's been slowed down and people have spat their dummies out.
The bat-turns that were possible in the original IL2 were annoying. I saw them and didn't like them. Call it an exploit/cheat or whatever.
From an impartial point of view. Could trimming be speeded up, but the physical effects increased.
I'm sure I've read that if you were to try these outrageous manouvers in RL you would hit a stall very quickly or the super G's and pressures incured would break your birds wings off.
Have trimming at an acceptable speed but be punished with a/c damage for pushing your aircraft beyond it's limits.
Would also be funny to see someone trying to pull a bat-turn and then see their wings tumble away.

there you go...

Tully__
08-10-2003, 03:13 PM
This is getting personal, and the original question has been answered.

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