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View Full Version : Does the mustang turn shorter than a 109 at low speed and low altitude ?



Player_43
06-18-2008, 05:15 AM
This movie on History Channel says that a P51 turns shorter than a 109 at low alt and low speed : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqrDithyw_0&NR=1

DKoor
06-18-2008, 05:38 AM
Can't bet my life on it, but I think in game, it outturns both FW-190A8/9 on deck if you load it with 25% fuel.
Earlier Fockes are likely better in turn, and FW-190D if loaded with less fuel probably outmatches a P-51D.
However if you load P-51D with 100% fuel, then it is about same as B-17 regarding mentioned turn capability (low alt, sustained).

If I could just find a secure way to check it out I'd test it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

EDIT*
In game.
Just realized that I oversighted, you mentioned Bf-109 not FW-190... turning vs Bf-109 (most variants) in that manner is a big no no.
Bf-109, aside for faster turn, also is more stable at low speed. One of the most stable fighters in the game overall.

tragentsmith
06-18-2008, 05:39 AM
For the xxxx time : History CHannel is not accurate. If you believe history channel, then the germans would have been defeated in the air 2 weeks after the involvment of the USA in the war.

IRL, the turn radius of a fighter depends of course on technical datas, but also on pilot skill and physical condition. A rookie barely knowing his plane would have a far bigger turn radius than an expert already flying his machine for 4 - 5 years. Because he knows his machine and its limits.

So answer is : it depends on the pilot.

Erkki_M
06-18-2008, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Player_43:
This movie on History Channel says that a P51 turns shorter than a 109 at low alt and low speed : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqrDithyw_0&NR=1


You can always try! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This so called "History Channel" seems to be more about comedy!

DKoor
06-18-2008, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by tragentsmith:
For the xxxx time : History Channel is not accurate. Pilot accounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

+ real life has little to do with quite sterile IL2 experience (don't get me wrong, it's the best game that deals with warbirds outhere, but still only a game).

tragentsmith
06-18-2008, 05:54 AM
Ow man ! I didn't even bothered to llok at the video before posting, but I should have watched it.... Are you sure you didn't lloked at an episode from Macross ???

Look, your modern P51 at 1.15 making the same ascape manoeuvre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSevou7uq0Q&feature=related

DKoor
06-18-2008, 05:57 AM
No, I've been wrongly interpreted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

While it is nice, graphical interpretations of most of those fights can be ****canned regarding any kind of realistic accuracy.

However, pilot may be speaking the truth, he surely did something (I'd add probably everything considering whole story http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) right, and outflew the Germans this or that way.
Plus had extreme dose of luck, because you don't survive occasion where you have E/A on your tail closing and shooting frequently, let alone few such events in one flight.
Just the graphical interpretation is clearly wrong, no WW2 (not even nimblest ones) aren't capable of such turn as it was displayed.

R_Target
06-18-2008, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Pilot accounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Heh. Stupid pilots, what do they know? They weren't even there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Falcke
06-18-2008, 06:40 AM
Kudos to the first P51 pilot who manages to pull that maneuver at 4:15 in IL2.

DKoor
06-18-2008, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Pilot accounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Heh. Stupid pilots, what do they know? They weren't even there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Just want to say that I haven't said that.

Nor I implied it in any way.

WOLFMondo
06-18-2008, 08:44 AM
History channel out turns real events easily. I can't see a low speed turning fight with any version of the 109 loosing to a P51D.

Capt.LoneRanger
06-18-2008, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Pilot accounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Heh. Stupid pilots, what do they know? They weren't even there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're right. Very few pilots flew planes on both sides of the war at the same time or even in the same battle. So how CAN they know it was not a pilot-error or pure luck? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

joeap
06-18-2008, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
... but still only a game).

NO IT'S NOT
NO IT'S NOT
NO IT'S NOT
NO IT'S NOT
NO IT'S NOT

http://img84.echo.cx/img84/2518/hissyfit8wr.gif

I'M REPLAYING WWII OVER AGAIN IN MY SANDBOX AND MY SIDE MUST WIN.

Kettenhunde
06-18-2008, 10:20 AM
However, pilot may be speaking the truth, he surely did something (I'd add probably everything considering whole story ) right, and outflew the Germans this or that way.


Of course they are speaking the truth!

Keep in mind however that there is very large difference in the performance a 25 hour pilot can extract from a given design versus what a 600 hour pilot can extract from a given design.

All the best,

Crumpp

JG53Frankyboy
06-18-2008, 10:59 AM
one thing i'm always wondering when seeing/reading such reports of lonley fighterpilots (every nation !) fighting and shooting down enemy planes over enemy teretory is, how can they get confirmations for these kills..........................

SeaFireLIV
06-18-2008, 12:41 PM
I see this one time and again.

Someone pops up with evidence of what one pilot did and someone else refutes it, then counterclaims, then charts, the oleg is a commie.

The problem is you all want a simple answer, but the answer is never simple. Consider this:

The US pilot is telling the Truth he did out turn the 109.

The US Pilot knew his plane better.

The 109 pilot did not know his plane better. He was a rookie, or maybe damage or fatigued.Or made an error.

The point is, the pilot isn`t lying, he`s just talking from his view and how things worked as he saw it. You mustn`t suddenly decide that because this one pilot managed to do what he did that suddenly, every online pilot in a sim should be able to do the same under whatever circumstances.

Brain32
06-18-2008, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Falcke:
Kudos to the first P51 pilot who manages to pull that maneuver at 4:15 in IL2.

Kudos to the MiG-29SMT pilot that pulls the manouver at 4:15 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Xiolablu3
06-18-2008, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I see this one time and again.

Someone pops up with evidence of what one pilot did and someone else refutes it, then counterclaims, then charts, the oleg is a commie.

The problem is you all want a simple answer, but the answer is never simple. Consider this:

The US pilot is telling the Truth he did out turn the 109.

The US Pilot knew his plane better.

The 109 pilot did not know his plane better. He was a rookie, or maybe damage or fatigued.Or made an error.

The point is, the pilot isn`t lying, he`s just talking from his view and how things worked as he saw it. You mustn`t suddenly decide that because this one pilot managed to do what he did that suddenly, every online pilot in a sim should be able to do the same under whatever circumstances.


Should be framed and made a sticky.

Kettenhunde
06-18-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I see this one time and again.

Someone pops up with evidence of what one pilot did and someone else refutes it, then counterclaims, then charts, the oleg is a commie.

The problem is you all want a simple answer, but the answer is never simple. Consider this:

The US pilot is telling the Truth he did out turn the 109.

The US Pilot knew his plane better or he got lucky.

The 109 pilot did not know his plane better. He was a rookie, or maybe damage or fatigued.Or made an error.

The point is, the pilot isn`t lying, he`s just talking from his view and how things worked as he saw it. You mustn`t suddenly decide that because this one pilot managed to do what he did that suddenly, every online pilot in a sim should be able to do the same under whatever circumstances.

R_Target
06-18-2008, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Just want to say that I haven't said that.

Nor I implied it in any way.

I know. I think we misunderstood each other. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sirrith
06-19-2008, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
one thing i'm always wondering when seeing/reading such reports of lonley fighterpilots (every nation !) fighting and shooting down enemy planes over enemy teretory is, how can they get confirmations for these kills..........................

I think guncams http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and I tried that maneouver, haha, but it looks nothing like what the vid shows, lol.

DKoor
06-19-2008, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Just want to say that I haven't said that.

Nor I implied it in any way.

I know. I think we misunderstood each other. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

tragentsmith
06-19-2008, 04:52 AM
Haha,

the P51D is flying around 450 kph and maybe more, makes an instant 360? turn in less than 1 second without breaking his wing, which is way better than Oleg's spitfire, aims and shoot the engine at the same moment in his 360? turn, and start chasing without losing the slightest speed....

I'll buy it for "Pearl Harbour II : The IJA strikes back"