PDA

View Full Version : what was the most common varient of 109 at stalingrad?



thefruitbat
02-12-2008, 01:05 PM
Title says it all really, i am presuming early gustav's and friedrich's being steadily replaced, by the former, but in what numbers??

thanks in advance

fruitbat

JtD
02-12-2008, 01:20 PM
Have you checked this (http://www.ww2.dk/) site? It should give you the answer in great detail.

Out of my head, I'd say early Gustavs, most likely G-2, were dominant. G-6 arrived late 42/early 43. Probably some leftover E and F still in the force.

Kurfurst__
02-12-2008, 01:33 PM
Stalingrad - when? In the summer, or in the winter? Basically the G-2 models begun to arrive to the front in June 1942, if you can find which fighter units were based around Stalingrad in support of Army Group South, via ww2.dk you can pretty much tell what type of fighters were used in the area in the given time frame.

A quick and dirty check for daylight fighter strenght, on 1st November 1942, on __all__ (ie. West/East/Med) frontline and advanced Operational Training Units, something like

ca. 600 FW 190As,
ca. 40 109Es,
ca. 300 109Fs, and
ca 565 109Gs were in service.

Rough numbers only, but should be about right. And remember, this includes all LW units, wherever they were, and also some training units that did no fighting, just prepeared pilots for frontline duty (hence the 109Es, and they were used in backwater Scandinavian areas for some time, too).

Xiolablu3
02-12-2008, 01:48 PM
I would agree that it would be mostly 109G's with a few F's on the frontline.

Generally fontlines were given the new types where they would be put to best use in all airforces. ALthough older types were kept in service, in reserve or training facilities, the best types would be reserved for the units most likely to put them to good use.

It can be misleading for example that 109E's are 'in servive' in late 1942 as they will not be used in the primary theatres unless there was an emergency.

Similarly, if you look at a 'Snapshot' of the DDay landings air cover, you see a lot of Spitfire MkV squadrons in there, however this was mostly just the 'reserve' and the 2nd line Squadrons from the North of England, put up over the Landing Areas in the attempt to put up as many Aircraft as humanly possible in order to cover the landing area. In reality most of the Frontline squadrons in the primary theatres would have the top-line newest fighters as in the Spitfire mkIX and any Griffon engined Spitfires then in Service.

I would use mostly 109G2's for an ingame recreation, vs Yak9's and La5's/La5F's (non FN). This planeset creates a very good dogfight/battle. Throw in some FW190A4's too.

luftluuver
02-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Don't believe everything Kurfy says.

Stab/Sch.G.1 used E-7s til March 1943.

Xiolablu3
02-12-2008, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Don't believe everything Kurfy says.

Stab/Sch.G.1 used E-7s til March 1943.

Surely this would not be a dedicated fighter outfit tho?

Was it fighter-bomber? Or maybe some Unit that didnt see much fighting for some reason?

Like the RAF Units in the North of England which basically saw no fighting in the 2nd half of the War, and kept older types like the MkV SPitfire even in 1944. Was this German unit similar?

The Luftwaffe didnt keep a 'reserve' in the same way the RAF did, so comparisons are difficult, but surely this 109E unit in 1943 weould be some kind of 'reserve'.

Kurfurst__
02-12-2008, 02:52 PM
Ground attack/army close support unit, formed on the Eastern Front early 1942. It flew specially armored G/A versions of the 109E, then FW 190As and Hs 123 and 129.

http://ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

Usual flamebait, in other words.

thefruitbat
02-12-2008, 03:07 PM
Thanks for the replies, and particualy the site JtD http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

Seems to be pretty much as i had guessed, with the g2 started coming in around july/august in the area.

Kurfurst, any suggestions on how to find out which fighter units were based around Stalingrad, and where?

Also what boost would the friedrich's that were there be running around on? Didnt they get cleared for a higher ATA at some point, than the f4 in game?

Once again,

cheers fruitbat

JSG72
02-12-2008, 03:22 PM
AS far as FIGHTERs at Stalingrad goes JG3 and I/JG 53 started with F-4s/G-2s. And support from Rumanian 109Es

a few Italian fighters also took part Macchis, Folgores and Reggiane 2000s

I/II/and III JG 52 Got in the mix with G-2s during the transport escort stages.

luftluuver
02-12-2008, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Ground attack/army close support unit, formed on the Eastern Front early 1942. It flew specially armored G/A versions of the 109E, then FW 190As and Hs 123 and 129.

http://ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

Usual flamebait, in other words.
No Barbi. Just correcting one of your false statements.

thefruitbat
02-12-2008, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by JSG72:
AS far as FIGHTERs at Stalingrad goes JG3 and I/JG 53 started with F-4s/G-2s. And support from Rumanian 109Es

a few Italian fighters also took part Macchis, Folgores and Reggiane 2000s

I/II/and III JG 52 Got in the mix with G-2s during the transport escort stages.

Brillient, Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif, seems that JG3 was based at Pitomnik from 13/9/42 till 20/11/42, with BF109G's.

Trouble is, that i need to learn more airbase names to get a better idea, my bad, lol

fruitbat

Kurfurst__
02-12-2008, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:

Kurfurst, any suggestions on how to find out which fighter units were based around Stalingrad, and where?

I can`t give you much that is of use... either you find a good book on the subject that tells what units were participating in air combat near Stalingrad area, and look them up one by one at ww2.dk.. the other alternative is to go through ww2.dk, which list every station and equipment for all units, however that is a lot of work.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


Originally posted by thefruitbat:

Also what boost would the friedrich's that were there be running around on? Didnt they get cleared for a higher ATA at some point, than the f4 in game?

Indeed they were, the DB 601E of the F-4 was clearned for 1,42ata boost at the turnover of 41/42. Should give it similiar performance as the G-2s..

F-2s remained the same through their service.

thefruitbat
02-12-2008, 04:04 PM
Indeed they were, the DB 601E of the F-4 was clearned for 1,42ata boost at the turnover of 41/42. Should give it similiar performance as the G-2s..

F-2s remained the same through their service.

Curious question, what was the diff with the DB 601-H (F2) that meant it couldn't be boosted like the DB 601-E (F4)?

fruitbat

Kurfurst__
02-12-2008, 04:25 PM
DB 601H is probably a transcript error from Russian alphabet, meaning DB 601N. Apart from that, I dunno any particular reason, it just seems the high octane 601N was a development dead-end, and they concentrated on the low octane 601E, which ran on higher rpm and eventaully, higher MAP. And, AFAIK the 601E/605A are very similiar.

thefruitbat
02-12-2008, 04:30 PM
Ok, one thing i am finding difficult, is to find any maps that show luftwaffe bases full stop. Trouble is, modern day place names are either different, or are different to what the Germans called them in WWII.

I need to find something that will enable me to combine the resources at ww2.dk with place names i can relate to on modern maps?

any ideas?

fruitbat

JtD
02-12-2008, 10:35 PM
Pitomik and Gumrak are the two bases just West of Stalingrad.

A web search and the Il-2 maps should find you all bases once you know the name.

csThor
02-13-2008, 03:26 AM
For the "early" Stalingrad phase (= the german approach and attack on the city) the fighter units were:

JG 3 (all three Gruppen) with Bf 109 F-4, slowly receiving Bf 109 G-2
I./JG 53 - Bf 109 G-2
"Stalingrad Detachment" of III./JG 52 - Bf 109 G-2

For a few days II./JG 52 was at Stalingrad, too, but the situation further south in the Caucasus required it to be shifted there. II./JG 3 left its remaining F-4s for I. and III. Gruppe and retired to East Prussia for conversion to G-2 in late August 1942, reappeared only after encirclement of 6th Army.

Regarding the bases: The main base early on was Tusow, a flat stretch of Steppe north of Kalatch on the western bank of river Don. Then Pitomnik - again nothing else than a flat stretch of Steppe - became the main fighter base to shorten reaction and flight times.

thefruitbat
02-13-2008, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
For the "early" Stalingrad phase (= the german approach and attack on the city) the fighter units were:

JG 3 (all three Gruppen) with Bf 109 F-4, slowly receiving Bf 109 G-2
I./JG 53 - Bf 109 G-2
"Stalingrad Detachment" of III./JG 52 - Bf 109 G-2

For a few days II./JG 52 was at Stalingrad, too, but the situation further south in the Caucasus required it to be shifted there. II./JG 3 left its remaining F-4s for I. and III. Gruppe and retired to East Prussia for conversion to G-2 in late August 1942, reappeared only after encirclement of 6th Army.

Regarding the bases: The main base early on was Tusow, a flat stretch of Steppe north of Kalatch on the western bank of river Don. Then Pitomnik - again nothing else than a flat stretch of Steppe - became the main fighter base to shorten reaction and flight times.

Thanks for the info, I saw Tusow on ww2.dk, but couldnt find where it was. And i still can't, lol.

Is Tusow on our stalingrad map in game, cause i can't find it north of Kalatch on the Don, nor can i find any maps showing it, in my books or online http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Lots of maps seem to show Pitomik and Gumrak, how hard can it be to find a place!!

cheers fruitbat

leitmotiv
02-13-2008, 04:48 AM
Ones with many white stripes on the rudder and paintings of Knight's Crosses with the red and white ribbon.

JG53Frankyboy
02-13-2008, 05:00 AM
Tuzov (just another spelling in oncyrrilic letters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) is/was north west of Kalach.

and not to forgett the rumanians with their actually obsolete Emils worked still in the fighter role , not like thier LW comrades as fighterbombers in SchlG 1 ->

"The 7th Fighter Group returned to the Pipera airfield near Bucharest. Fifteen Bf-109E7s arrived during the spring of 1942 and were assigned to the 56th Squadron. Until 31 July the group trained with the new aircraft and pilots, under the command of cpt. av. Grigore Crihană. At the beginning of August it was declared combat ready and in September it was sent on the front near Stalingrad. Its main mission was to provide fighter cover for the 3rd Romanian Army.

The group arrived on 8 September on the Tuzov airfield with 37 Bf-109Es.The operations started badly, when cpt. av. Alexandru Manoliu, the commander of the 57th Squadron was shot down. He was replaced by lt. av. Alexandru Serbanescu. The first victory for the 7th Fighter Group came two days later, when adj. av. Constantin Urasachi shot down a Yak-1 at 10 km from Stalingrad.

The Romanian fighters were used mainly in bomber escort missions, which they executed with professionalism, as shown in a note of gen. Martin Fiebig, CO of the Fliegerkorps VIII: "the Stuka units in action over Stalingrad have reported several times that the Romanian fighters have protected them very well". On 19 September a patrulă covered the He-111 and Ju-88 formations on a raid to the city. They ran into 16 Yaks and engaged them, adding another victory to the group's list.

As a response, the Soviet bombers and recon airplanes started to appear over the airfield, where the Romanian group was based. The Romanian fighters attempted to prevent them from approaching, but because of the height and speed advantage of the Pe-2s, only a few were shot down. However one was bagged by cpt. av. Crihană, who didn't fly too much, because of his size. The Soviet fighters seldom passed beyond the Volga, so air combat was sporadic. Only 11 victories were confirmed to the 7th Fighter Group in September 1942. Because of the few available airplanes (the 57th had 4 and the 58th had 3) mixed formations with the IAR-80s were organized."

as a book, i can recommend BlackCross_RedStar Vol.3 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

thefruitbat
02-13-2008, 05:33 AM
Ahhh Tuzov, success!!

which would make it about here:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/ScreenHunter_2.jpg

according to this,

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/ScreenHunter_1-1.jpg

Strange that they never put on one of the most important luftwaffe bases on the map.

Thanks for the info on the Romanians, good stuff.

fruitbat

bhunter2112
02-14-2008, 12:31 AM
In july 42 I./Jg 53 received g-2 (first to get) left the Stalingrad area at the end of Nov leaving it's G-2 with Jg3 to return to Sicily.

From Ospreys Jg53 "Elite" book