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View Full Version : EVERYONE CONTACT SENATOR JOHN McCAIN!



howlingmunkies
12-17-2004, 12:37 AM
Years ago I had trouble with the FAA-- they misplaced the results of my instrument written test. Well I contacted John McCains office in Tucson (handled by his brother), and told him my issues. No ****, the results appeared in my hands within a week-- and I received a personally signed letter from the senator expressing his apologies.

Where am I going with this? If it is true that airplane manufacturers are putting a stop on Oleg and IC, then I believe that the Senator has the ability to help. As a former naval pilot, avid aviation enthusiast and ranking senator-- I couldn't think of any reason why he couldn't help.

Please, we must all voice our concerns on this issue!

Contact him here: http://mccain.senate.gov/

howlingmunkies
12-17-2004, 12:37 AM
Years ago I had trouble with the FAA-- they misplaced the results of my instrument written test. Well I contacted John McCains office in Tucson (handled by his brother), and told him my issues. No ****, the results appeared in my hands within a week-- and I received a personally signed letter from the senator expressing his apologies.

Where am I going with this? If it is true that airplane manufacturers are putting a stop on Oleg and IC, then I believe that the Senator has the ability to help. As a former naval pilot, avid aviation enthusiast and ranking senator-- I couldn't think of any reason why he couldn't help.

Please, we must all voice our concerns on this issue!

Contact him here: http://mccain.senate.gov/

Yen Lo
12-17-2004, 12:49 AM
No kiddin that stuff works man, I had probs with the Post office and my congressmen (Boswell) jumped in their dudu, and it got solved!!! Contact your congressman or senator it really worked for me.

Hans_Philipp
12-17-2004, 02:52 AM
I think there are very few politicians who would take up the defense establishment in order to satisfy computer gamers.

Policians tend to think in political capital, and lobbying for a change in policy by these companies will use a lot of the capital they could have used elsewhere (where there are more votes).

I think this is so significant that it deserves an honest attempt, and Sen. McCain is probably one of the few who could be slightly interested if the emails use the following themes:

1. Tribute to the men who fought and died in these battles
2. A living recreation of US history, and a way to teach that history to the American youth.
3. Aviation, and aviation history are alive in no small part due to the internet, simulators etc.
4. It promotes aviation.
5. It is a good recruitment method for our Armed Forces. (Kids immersed in sims like PF have a higher chance of growing up and saying "i wanna be a Navy pilot" than kids who don't. )

These are just a few...

Hans_Philipp
12-17-2004, 02:56 AM
BTW, my common sense tells me that this is too ridiculous a measure to stand.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I find the whole situation to be ABSURD.

Targ
12-17-2004, 03:01 AM
Try Ted Stevens as well. He was a flying tiger in WW2. Long shot, yes but much better than complaining on a forum.
http://stevens.senate.gov/

Hans_Philipp
12-17-2004, 03:07 AM
We also need good publicity on this. A good newpaper article, ridiculing the unjustified demand of these companies.

WOLFMondo
12-17-2004, 03:22 AM
This is silly. US companies now want to buy there own slice of history than see it portraid correctly.

stansdds
12-17-2004, 04:21 AM
This is not the first time this has happened. It has wreaked havok in the model railroading and plastic model building sector as well. Union Pacific Railroad decided that their name and logo were copywrited trademarks and demanded model makers pay royalties for using them to decorate kits and locomotives. Further more, Union Pacific Railroad claims that all defunct railroads that they have purchased or merged are also protected under copywrite law. Ford Motor Company has done the same thing. It has created a lot of ill will between the big corporations and the hobby community. In reality I think it boils down to greed. The bean counters and lawyers have found a legal way to extract more money from the consumer and line their own pockets. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

WWSensei
12-17-2004, 04:25 AM
I'm tickled that people think this is new.

It isn't and has been around for years. Even the old Dynamix company had to secure rights when they Aces Over The Pacific. Ubi certainly had to know this and someone dropped the ball and now they are acting like "the innocent victim".

Hehe, try using a UbiSoft trademark and let their lawyers get wind of it.

s.bush
12-17-2004, 04:52 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/11.jpg
You could even offer the senator a free copy of the sim in return for his help but watch his face after he finds out there are no torp bombers

s.bush
12-17-2004, 05:01 AM
Does that mean microsoft did their homework correctly?CFS2 is now 5 years old.

VMF223_Smitty
12-17-2004, 07:15 AM
The honorable Senator John McCain os already targeting Boeing, Northrop Grumman and others for other unrelated issues.

In part he writes:

"About two months ago, Ms. Druyun was sentenced to nine months in prison on public corruption charges. Her crime: negotiating the $30 billion deal with Boeing while negotiating with Boeing for a job. Ms. Druyun€s sentencing occurred months after Boeing€s board of directors fired her and former Chief Financial Officer Michael Sears for misconduct arising from the tanker negotiations. Boeing€s Chief Executive Officer Phil Condit soon left the company under a cloud of suspicion."

The entire text of his speech on the Senate floor can be found here:

MCCAIN STATEMENT ON US AIR FORCE ACCOUNTABILITY REGARDING THE BOEING 767 TANKER LEASE DEAL (http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=NewsCenter.ViewSpeech&Content_id=1332)

VW-IceFire
12-17-2004, 07:26 AM
I like the idea of lobbying a bit...some of us are on the outside of things by being in different countries but if these sorts of things can work then by all means.

On the other hand, I think you guys should be very organized and very smart. Find out the REAL issues involved, the details, and then make your case.

There would be nothing worse than contacting someone like that and giving them the wrong story. Give it a bit of time, do some planning...just my humble suggestion.

VMF223_Smitty
12-17-2004, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I like the idea of lobbying a bit...some of us are on the outside of things by being in different countries but if these sorts of things can work then by all means.

On the other hand, I think you guys should be very organized and very smart. Find out the REAL issues involved, the details, and then make your case.

There would be nothing worse than contacting someone like that and giving them the wrong story. Give it a bit of time, do some planning...just my humble suggestion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IceFire:
Some of the wisest words said on this forum in the past week.
We as a community have a lot of talent and intelligence. (there are always exceptions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

A section of this forum should be used for information gathering, dispersal and the beginning of a concerted effort to find out what is going on. Not with ranting, whining, rumors and bickering, but with an approach that reflects the above mentioned talent and smarts.

I for one, would be very glad to support any effort to resolve the issue that is in front of us.

Smitty

I added rumors and bickering to the above post.

Hans_Philipp
12-17-2004, 07:45 AM
Hear'Hear! I second these sentiments!

XyZspineZyX
12-17-2004, 08:00 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hello,

I am not an US citizen but I think that waiting in this matter shall only make things worse. React and react fast. This is an attack on the first and fundamental liberty of using a name of the public domain. Grumman, Republic and other aircraft or other constructors names are public domain and are not misused when put into a simulation. It is not a critic of the machines used by so many for so many years.
But yes it is a question of bucks and trying to get the last cent out of the pocket of the consumer. The liberal and capitalist USA have no shame of taking money they do not deserve, this moment of history are not theirs but a common and universal heritage of all mankind.
I thank some people to have put this stupidity forward so that everyone can see and understand the greed of these companies for witch money is more important than heritage and history.
One last reflection; because Oleg and Ubisoft did use their name did they loose any money?
Sensei

VMF223_Smitty
12-17-2004, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hans_Philipp:
Hear'Hear! I second these sentiments! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bump

ddsflyer
12-17-2004, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the link, I sent him a message.

Airmail109
12-17-2004, 11:46 AM
REBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBELLLLLLLLLLLLLll................. ..VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weather_Man
12-17-2004, 12:34 PM
Sorry, but I don't believe a company's product is public domain. Not even old ones out of production and/or played a significant role in history. Legaly, Grumman has every right to seek licensing for use of their trademark name and/or image of their product sold for profit. They do have a say in how their corporate image is portrayed.

public domain
Function: noun
1 : land owned directly by the government
2 : the realm embracing property rights that belong to the community at large, are unprotected by copyright or patent, and are subject to appropriation by anyone


(PD) The total absence of copyright protection. If
something is "in the public domain" then anyone can copy it or
use it in any way they wish. The author has none of the
exclusive rights which apply to a copyright work.

The phrase "public domain" is often used incorrectly to refer
to freeware or shareware (software which is copyrighted
but is distributed without (advance) payment). Public domain
means no copyright -- no exclusive rights. In fact the phrase
"public domain" has no legal status at all in the UK.

I'm not siding with them, I think it's BS if true. I just think people should know the facts to determine which angle to fight in this war. Sadly, we don't have much facts to work with yet to make an effective presentation. If UBI overstepped their bounds then there's really nothing to go on.

Contacting Senators may or may not help. Depends on Grumman's standing with them and whether the legal issue is solid, which it probably is. I think a better PR campaign could be waged against Grumman directly. Why not gather a list of names and addresses for people on the board of directors we can write to?

t0n.
12-17-2004, 12:55 PM
Why do you think Valve use fictional names for the weapons in Counterstrike? Because Colt, IMI, FN, H&K etcetera would sue the pants off them if they were dumb enough to try to capitalise on a registered trademark. Or Grand Theft Auto?

1C are bound by the same rules as Plastic Kit and replica manufacturers. If this is indeed the issue, then the fault isn't with Northrop who have no choice but to aggressivly protect their brands.

Eraser_tr
12-17-2004, 01:03 PM
Northrop Grumman, Boeing etc make between $10- 30,000,000 per plane sold to the airforce, navy and airlines. The bean counters need to back off and come up with an agreement with a statement "yada yada yada are registered trademarks of &lt;insert greedy corporation here&gt;"

McCain would be a good choice with his involvement in the armed services commitee, it could actually work, contact a few others that deal with corporations and business and 1C may be in good shape.

Turk_man
12-17-2004, 01:12 PM
Is this what is really happening? A statement from 1C would sure help. Still doesn`t explain why we don`t have a Typhoon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG51Beolke
12-17-2004, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by s.bush:
Does that mean microsoft did their homework correctly?CFS2 is now 5 years old. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and odds are M$ is P.O'd because they probably want to make CFS4 but no one would buy it, seeing what PF has to offer.

Chuck_Older
12-17-2004, 02:42 PM
Everyone, please do not contact Senator McCain.

We don't even know what the problem really is. Oleg has mentioned in a vague way, but we don't really know; we are guessing.

Don't shoot our collectives selves in the foot

LilHorse
12-17-2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Haddock55:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hello,

I am not an US citizen but I think that waiting in this matter shall only make things worse. React and react fast. This is an attack on the first and fundamental liberty of using a name of the public domain. Grumman, Republic and other aircraft or other constructors names are public domain and are not misused when put into a simulation. It is not a critic of the machines used by so many for so many years.
But yes it is a question of bucks and trying to get the last cent out of the pocket of the consumer. The liberal and capitalist USA have no shame of taking money they do not deserve, this moment of history are not theirs but a common and universal heritage of all mankind.
I thank some people to have put this stupidity forward so that everyone can see and understand the greed of these companies for witch money is more important than heritage and history.
One last reflection; because Oleg and Ubisoft did use their name did they loose any money?
Sensei <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but this is just about the most ridiculous rant I've seen over this nonsense. What do you think corporations do? They provide a salable product or service for the purposes of MAKING MONEY! And guess what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with making money. Even huge, big, heaping piles of money. HOOORRRRAAAAYYYY FOR CAPITALISM!!!!

And they absolutely have every right in the world to control the use of their names and images of their products in a commercial product.

It's not like I'm happy about all of this. But we don't know all the facts about what is happening. And I'm sure that it merely comes down to dotting and crossing a few legal "i's" and "t's". I'll bet some of my dirty capitalist money that all of this gets cleared up in a rather mundane fashion.

ElAurens
12-17-2004, 03:34 PM
Folks, please use your heads a little bit here.

Any move on the part of individual members of this community will only make matters worse. We don't know the facts, or the totality of the issue at hand. Give the producer and publisher a chance to clear this all up. Corporate law is not for those with quick tempers, and even quicker keyboards.

AFJ_Locust
12-17-2004, 04:05 PM
Hey I agree its a bad Idea to start e mailing your congressmen or anyone else for that matter.

About this situation, Lets let Oleg & his gang deal with the problem for now & maybe in the future our collective voice will be needed!!!

^S

VMF-214_HaVoK
12-17-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
This is silly. US companies now want to buy there own slice of history than see it portraid correctly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only that but those war planes research and construction were funded mainly with US tax dollars. Whats next? Will we have to puchase a license to sing and/or play the National Anthem at sporting events? Its is ashame indeed what low level money hungry lawyers stoop too for money.

carguy_
12-17-2004, 06:39 PM
ROFLMAO whole IL2 community acts like a running around headless chickenLOLOL!http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ashley2005
12-17-2004, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimail101:
REBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBELLLLLLLLLLLLLll................. ..VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


u been watching south park the movie too much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Irish_JG26
12-17-2004, 07:07 PM
S~ all,

Any grass roots campaign would need to first get the facts straight on the issue, complaint, etc. The fact that a trade name like Chance Vaught or Republic is no longer used does not mean that it lacks value or is in the public domain. Look at the big fight over the Indian Motorcycles name a few years ago.

McCain just recently got egg on his face for spouting off about Donald Rumsfeld and the so called lack of armored Hummers in Iraq. Since McCain was in Washington for the last dozen years or so when the funding for those or the lack thereof was appropriated by Congress, He and his peers were more to blame than anyone in the DoD. Since his public comments earlier in the week, it has been made known that there are 15000 Humvees in Iraq, and better than 80% were the armored version. It made the Senator look pretty moronic. I suspect that the Senator will be seeking to make sure that he knows what he is talking about before speaking in the future.

I do agree that in many ways the names in question are part of Aviation history and in many ways these sims are a form of living history. We are even talking to the Wright Patterson USAF Museum about setting up a flight sim room based upon IL2 so that visitors may experience a flight on a bomber or piloting a fighter in combat. This is a wonderful experience! Lets face it, even those who are fortunate enough to have the skill and resources today to own and pilot a P51 or a P38 or a Spitfire, etc, can only imagine what combat in those planes was like. Through the tools that Oleg and his team have provided, we can at least get a little taste.

I think that no matter what we choose to do to help Oleg, we should:

1. Get the story straight the 1st time.
2. Make sure that Oleg and Ubi think that what we are going to do will actually help and not hurt the situation.
3. Then proceed in an orderly fashion as opposed to a kneejerk, mostly emotional reaction to a perceived slight by the companies in question. Just my 2 cents.

Irish

ivanmoe
12-17-2004, 07:16 PM
I don't believe a word of this ****.

Remember the story about the content being left out of the game because it would require a 3rd cdrom?

Remember the sick programmer and the other excuses?

Well, I've had it.

I've purchased all of 1C's flight sims, mainly to support the genre.

But, I have no interest, whatsoever, in more reshash of RedAF uber-birds whupping up on the Luftwaffe.

LOL, the Russians didn't force the Germans to withdraw their A/C from the Eastern front, the 8th AF did.

But, wait, BoB is on the way!

Yeah, and it'll ship with three CD's, right?

Moe

Bull_dog_
12-17-2004, 07:55 PM
Not only should we email john McCain but I think George Bush Sr too...especially President Bush.

Now I have a Chi Chi Jima map but no flyable Avenger to recreate his mission in. I think a phone call from President Bush and President Bush might persuade a certain Defense contractor to grant Oleg some discretion. I wonder if Pres Bush flies flight simulators?

stelr
12-17-2004, 08:02 PM
As our saga continues....

Scene changes to German Forum:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Hey Hanz, ze dummies on ze Ami forum are buying zees one too...ya! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Stinger22
12-17-2004, 08:19 PM
Would it not be better, if this is true, to contact the companies directly? Perhaps remind them that people who are interested in sims are interested in military history. And because we are interested in military history know more than most the importance of the equipment they, the contractors, design, manufacture and sell. And therefore are probably the most avid proponents of further developement and procurement. And that we tend to express that to our congressman and convince other voters to also support such efforts. Therefore it is in their own self interst to not only allow but to encourage the growth of the sim market?

Companies are more responsive it can be expressed in their own self interest as opposed to being forced to to something or threatened.

F4U_Flyer
12-18-2004, 01:23 AM
Wheres that chicken little pic when you need it?? I will send the appropriate emails and letters when someone actually knows what the problem is! Not before! You should all follow suit!

XyZspineZyX
12-18-2004, 02:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hello,

If this story about Grumman is correct, and it could be let us not forget that they are paid by the US government to fight a civil war in Colombia! Yes a civil business is paid to wage war in place of the US army! Yes they are making a profit and are paid big bucks to kill people in all legality!
What can you expect from a country that does that and from a company that does it?

Sensei

Ruy Horta
12-18-2004, 02:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stelr:
As our saga continues....

Scene changes to German Forum:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Hey Hanz, ze dummies on ze Ami forum are buying zees one too...ya! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How come I think this one sounds the most realistic of all posts here in this thread?!

BlitzPig_Frat
12-18-2004, 03:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Haddock55:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hello,

If this story about Grumman is correct, and it could be let us not forget that they are paid by the US government to fight a civil war in Colombia! Yes a civil business is paid to wage war in place of the US army! Yes they are making a profit and are paid big bucks to kill people in all legality!
What can you expect from a country that does that and from a company that does it?

Sensei <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO, enlightening quotes from a TSCI carrying file clerk deep within the puzzle palace known as the Pentagon. You want to post facts and files, not at a tripod site, to prove your claims? Or does your covert OPs position prohibit such acts?

I don't know what is worse, the MOD who allows totally baseless trolls like this, or the guy who said it. Only at UBI...

TAGERT.
12-18-2004, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eraser_tr:
Northrop Grumman, Boeing etc make between $10- 30,000,000 per plane sold to the airforce, navy and airlines. The bean counters need to back off and come up with an agreement with a statement "yada yada yada are registered trademarks of &lt;insert greedy corporation here&gt;"

McCain would be a good choice with his involvement in the armed services commitee, it could actually work, contact a few others that deal with corporations and business and 1C may be in good shape. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>FACT: Trademark law are not going to change for us.

With that said, the whole DAM U GREEDY BASTAGES line wont work! Demanding them to not charge from something that they are legally alllows to charge for wont work either. In short we stand no change fighting/arguing with the trademark lawyers.. because it is their job to fight/argue and they are good at it!

The only chance we have is via the MARKETING dept of these companys.. Complaing that they charge TOO MUCH for it! Not that they should charge at all.. just too much!

Take the angle of this.. IRONIC that in real life Lockheed helped beat the AXIS aircraft with the P38. But, in simulations the ASIX aircraft win becasuse there is no P38.

So, *if* your not too lazy to actually make a phone call or write a letter.. Don do the GREEDY angle.. Go for the IRONIC aka SHAME angle.. BAD PRESS will have more effect than any lawyer can have.