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mynameisroland
09-22-2006, 05:10 PM
G6 early is meant to be the poorest Bf 109 vs relative opposition. On the Eastern front there are the La5 and Yak9/1B to contend with and on the Western front / Med theatre there are Spitfire IXc/P38 J/ P47 D and even the P40 M.

This was the lowest ebb of relative performance for the aircraft. However it is probably one of the most important periods for the 109 and it is very common on a lot of servers. Personally i never use the Mk 108 cannon and I rarely if ever fly the Bf 109 series after the F4.

How do good Bf 109 pilots use the G6 ( single 20mm variant ) against the Spitfire IXc or the La5 and win? What tactics do you use? Mostly how do you keep your energy advantage when you bounce when your elevator is so unresponsive?

Where is your performance advantage and what to you try and avoid?

inquisative Fw 190 pilot

carguy_
09-22-2006, 05:28 PM
Against Spitfire IX no chance.He will get you no matter what.Wingman is the only way.

La5 - get him above 5000m solo or strict B&Z lower.

Normally bounce should be done without any rough maneuvers cuz it is a huge loss of advantage.You can trim the elevators to get that snapshot,then get the hell outta there.

MK108 is very good for this type of aircraft.It counts when you got one or two shooting chances.


Escort missions with Ju87/Ju52/Hs129 expendable.Unable to perform good escort below 4500m.


Crappy rear view.Fragile.


But you can make it count in a 1v1 vs any plane.You just need to fight a r00kie as enemy.

mynameisroland
09-22-2006, 05:42 PM
See thats what I thought - pretty crappy plane. In a Spitfire I never fear its performance .. just its Mk 108. I think that the Bf 109 G6 looks great and its 'underdog' appeal makes me want to fly it more. After the luxury performance and high speed handling of a Fw 190 A5 or the allround ability of a Spitfire IX the G6 takes a lot of work.

I knew about its advantage against Russian crates above 4500m but that goes for all German fighters even the Fw 190 which is average up high. I thought the Bf 109 was meant to be good at dogfighting?

VW-IceFire
09-22-2006, 05:44 PM
I find the G-6 and up not to be as good at dogfighting as the earlier ones. The G-6 is more of a bomber interceptor...or rather the platform where they developed one from. Thus the gun pods and MK108 cannons. Kind of sacrificed its ability as a fighter I think. The G-6A/S and G-6 Late are far better...extra engine power makes up the weight difference.

carguy_
09-22-2006, 05:55 PM
Well ppl tend to forget it was essentially a G2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Naw,all 109 are good or very good at T&B but tactical advantage always stays on the VVS side.Soviet planes have the extra power where this Gustav seriously lacks.

But it is also interesting.Fighting very different planes is far from boring.

La7_brook
09-22-2006, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
G6 early is meant to be the poorest Bf 109 vs relative opposition. On the Eastern front there are the La5 and Yak9/1B to contend with and on the Western front / Med theatre there are Spitfire IXc/P38 J/ P47 D and even the P40 M.

This was the lowest ebb of relative performance for the aircraft. However it is probably one of the most important periods for the 109 and it is very common on a lot of servers. Personally i never use the Mk 108 cannon and I rarely if ever fly the Bf 109 series after the F4.

How do good Bf 109 pilots use the G6 ( single 20mm variant ) against the Spitfire IXc or the La5 and win? What tactics do you use? Mostly how do you keep your energy advantage when you bounce when your elevator is so unresponsive?

Where is your performance advantage and what to you try and avoid?

inquisative Fw 190 pilot BnZ fight or stall fight they both work , i found stall fight works the best ,well most fun lol, and then a wing man , helps too

carguy_
09-22-2006, 06:06 PM
Uhuh stall fight,B&Z yeah both work very fine until from nowhere another three red planes appear.Then you get chased down and killed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

tigertalon
09-22-2006, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Against Spitfire IX no chance.He will get you no matter what.Wingman is the only way.

Agreed. From my very limited experience about this two planes, there is NOT A SINGLE THING that a spit couldn't do (far) better. G6 looses much compared to G2, which is a pretty good match for IX IMO (turns tighter than the spit at extremely low speed, and climbs faster, especially between 4 and 7k).

cawimmer430
09-22-2006, 06:51 PM
Erich Hartmann never seemed to have a problem with the G-6. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Lordbutter4
09-22-2006, 08:00 PM
I tend to find the G-6 fine. I dont fly the G-2 just because I dont fly the Top of the line planes (I enjoy the challenge).

Against a spit driver your best bet is to try and slow him down. Your stall speed is much lower then his and your ability to manuveur in the stall is much better. 109's best turns are when the slats are open, which is near/at stall. Spits will always try to outturn you, you have to use this to your advantage. Slow yourself down and cut in on them, try to get them to pass in front of your cannon. If they do let them have it (most will be a great deflection, always curtains for a spit). If they keep evading thats ok too, your slowing them down.
Once you have the slow fight going, at some point the spit is going to try and extend or he will be fighting stall himself. Ive had spits fall out of the sky more times and kill themselves this way. A good trick is to use your engine power and loop yourself around on top of them. If you do this right you will end up with some slashing attacks on the spit. You will also end up with some E that you can spend on Alt which will just keep the pressure on.
All that being said its not an easy process. I find in late-war the 109 is one of the most difficult planes to fly along with most american stuff. Sure you can say just stay high and BNZ, but if im going to just do that give me a Gladiator, the rest are too boring and easy.

tigertalon
09-22-2006, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Erich Hartmann never seemed to have a problem with the G-6. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Which server did he fly? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
09-22-2006, 08:42 PM
i think the only advantage over spitfire is its less snappy, so just wring its neck.

its ok vs spits, until u get in trouble, then your REALLY in trouble.

JG52Karaya-X
09-23-2006, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The G-6A/S and G-6 Late are far better...extra engine power makes up the weight difference.

The G6Late is the same as the G6early but with the better visibility Erla hood, Galland Armour and a higher tailwheel. No extra engine power.

Anyway, yes the G6 really sucks against its 1943 competition and I would pick an F4 or G2 over it any time! They both are faster as well as turn and climb better than the G6 - the twin MG131 on the G6 are placebo anyway.

However I don't think that the later 109s with MW50 injection are bad at all. They - after the rather frustrating performance of the G6 - again show to be competitive or superior to their contemporary enemies.

People go on and on and on about the compressibility of the elevator but seem to ignore that a whole lot of other planes are victims of this phenomenon as well - it just takes some getting used to and some different tactics than the Focke Wulf rectangular "dive 90?, shoot, pull 90? up, extend" manoeuvers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What I personally love about the 109 is that it is such a dynamic fighter - other than the 190s (with the exception of the D9) it can build up energy very fast due to its excellent acceleration and climbrate. Furthermore it can do both turn fighting and energy fighting well.

ICDP
09-23-2006, 04:02 AM
The G6 early is faster than an F4 but slower than a G2. It is cabapale of around 400mph at it rated altitude. The G6 late is actually slightly faster at its rated altitude but not by much.

The realitiy is in this sim (as well as RL) the 109G6 and Spitfire MkIX are quite equally matched in performance and it is mostly down to the pilot. The often quoted 109G6 top speed of 386mph is incorrect for a 109G6 in fighter trim (no gondolas), it was good for around 400-404mph. As stated earlier the Bf109 has a slightly more forgiving low speed handling due to the slats. If all else fails use very low speed to force an overshoot/mistake by the Spitfire.

JG53Frankyboy
09-23-2006, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by ICDP:
........The realitiy is in this sim (as well as RL) the 109G6 and Spitfire MkIX are quite equally matched in performance and it is mostly down to the pilot. ............

by far not my experience, but anyway..............
im just wondering where the Maddox team find the ~300kg that is the ingame G6 heavier than the G2 !

fighter_966
09-23-2006, 04:51 AM
I have no problemos with g6 against Spits in Lan
partys ..I have been flown about from first Il2 as my opponents have, Only grudge for me that its vertical stabililators stiffens in 700kmh but then they should be around that speed (according what Lipfert says in his book)

JG52Karaya-X
09-23-2006, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

by far not my experience, but anyway..............
im just wondering where the Maddox team find the ~300kg that is the ingame G6 heavier than the G2 !

I dont know if you can really rely on IL2 Compare data for the aircraft weights...

Some real life values,

Normal takeoff weight for the G2: ~3030kg
Normal takeoff weight for the G6: ~3150kg

Manu-6S
09-23-2006, 05:10 AM
In '43 my only ride is an Anton if the G2 isn't available. G6s (all except the AS version) aren't a problem for SpitIX if the pilot know how to fly it: for this plane only Doras are a thread, everything else is almost useless.

At least in the '44 109 you can try to escape (from Spit... but not from the hunting P47 above your head).

Badsight-
09-23-2006, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
This was the lowest ebb of relative performance for the aircraft. However it is probably one of the most important periods for the 109 and it is very common on a lot of servers. Personally i never use the Mk 108 cannon and I rarely if ever fly the Bf 109 series after the F4.
oh man , the G6 & G6_Late are a DREAM to fly now

go back to 2003 (pre AEP), they were flying points for everything! . the difference between them & the G6/AS was beyond a joke

the G2 is a good close match for the normal Mk8 & 9s , the G6 & G6_Late lose that bit of extra performance that makes them the inferior ride

but its all relative to how well you know your plane & how well your flying in that session

JG53Frankyboy
09-23-2006, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

by far not my experience, but anyway..............
im just wondering where the Maddox team find the ~300kg that is the ingame G6 heavier than the G2 !

I dont know if you can really rely on IL2 Compare data for the aircraft weights...

Some real life values,

Normal takeoff weight for the G2: ~3030kg
Normal takeoff weight for the G6: ~3150kg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

than the G2 would be to light........... looking at he IL2compare weights.

so adding some kilogramms to the G2 would close the gap between these two models in case of climb and perhaps horizontal turn...

Kurfurst__
09-23-2006, 06:40 AM
IMHO the sense of great differences between G-2 and G-6 are much more opponent-related that between the two 109s, which have very slight weight and drag differences.

It's more than the case that flying the G-2 vs 1942 opponents, it's greatly superior, there are not too many good Allied planes(et) available. In 1943, there are a good number of potent Allied fighters to select from, the opposition is much tougher.

Historically, there were two saving grace for the lack of performance upgrades of the G-6 compared to the G-2 : first it was not much heavier (3100kg vs 3037kg, or do you notice on your car's handling if are not driving alone? It's the same 70kg.) The other that while on 1943 DF servers we have unlimited number of Allied planes, in real life the best ones were quite limited in number, ie. SpitV being the norm until late 1943.

HellToupee
09-23-2006, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by ICDP:
The G6 early is faster than an F4 but slower than a G2. It is cabapale of around 400mph at it rated altitude. The G6 late is actually slightly faster at its rated altitude but not by much.


g6 is a touch faster than the f4 at sealevel but after that f4 is pretty much faster at all heights. G2 is alot faster than g6.

tigertalon
09-23-2006, 08:19 AM
My personal preference about non-alco post E 109s:

1. G2
2. F4
3. G6_Late
4. G6_Early
5. F2

HayateAce
09-23-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

by far not my experience, but anyway..............
im just wondering where the Maddox team find the ~300kg that is the ingame G6 heavier than the G2 !

I dont know if you can really rely on IL2 Compare data for the aircraft weights...

Some real life values,

Normal takeoff weight for the G2: ~3030kg
Normal takeoff weight for the G6: ~3150kg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

than the G2 would be to light........... looking at he IL2compare weights.

so adding some kilogramms to the G2 would close the gap between these two models in case of climb and perhaps horizontal turn... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 109G2 remains incorrect in this game. Turns too well, feels like a Foo Fighter. Too light feeling. Oleg saw fit to add weight to the Lagg, but for some reason continues to ignore the G2.

anarchy52
09-23-2006, 09:11 AM
Top aces scored most of their victories flying that type.

Let's see:
Bf-109G6
weight: 3153kg
power/weight: 0.41 HP/kg
wingloading: 195 kg/m^2

La-5
weight: 3321kg
power/weight: 0.41 HP/kg
wingloading: 190 kg/m^2

La has 2.5 % lower wingloading, but it's heavier and larger wing and radial engine probably don't help with drag either. In real world those 2 were pretty close in performance at least below 3k. Above 3k G6 has distinct advantage.

In you-is-wrong world, La-5 has 20% sustained turn rate advantage, especially high speed.

While we're at high speed elevator responsiveness - where did willy screw up? Why is 109 so stiff compared to almost every other fighter?

ICDP
09-23-2006, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
The G6 early is faster than an F4 but slower than a G2. It is cabapale of around 400mph at it rated altitude. The G6 late is actually slightly faster at its rated altitude but not by much.


g6 is a touch faster than the f4 at sealevel but after that f4 is pretty much faster at all heights. G2 is alot faster than g6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has been a while since I tested the speeds of the various 109's. I found the G6 would reach just short 400mph at its rated alt, the F4 was around 7-10mph slower. The G2 is indeed faster by around 20mph at altitude. It would have been nice to get the 1.42ATA F4 which was a 400mph plus fighter.

Either way I find that if I have an advantage over contempory Spitfire in a 109 I tend to keep it. Co alt and speed it is down to luck and pilot skill.

Xiolablu3
09-23-2006, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The other that while on 1943 DF servers we have unlimited number of Allied planes, in real life the best ones were quite limited in number, ie. SpitV being the norm until late 1943.

I agree this used to be a problem.

A lot of servers now limit the amount of planes available, Ukdedicated2 maps in 1943 usually only allow 15-20 Spit IX's in any 1943 map, then you have Spit V's left.

Same with Me262 on 1945 maps, you can limit the numbers and therefore not worry about them being 'Uber' any more.

Much better in my opinion.

JG52Karaya-X
09-23-2006, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
While we're at high speed elevator responsiveness - where did willy screw up? Why is 109 so stiff compared to almost every other fighter?

Small elevator area and maybe poor position relative to the air flow so it is left out at higher speeds?

Anyway, I agree that the stiffness is a quite high.

tigertalon
09-23-2006, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
While we're at high speed elevator responsiveness - where did willy screw up? Why is 109 so stiff compared to almost every other fighter?

Small elevator area and maybe poor position relative to the air flow so it is left out at higher speeds?

Anyway, I agree that the stiffness is a quite high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still, stiffness does not affect planes as much as it should historically. Example: P-51 vs 109. Don't bother P51 being able to turn tighter than your 109 at high speeds, he will bleed all his speed in first seconds anyway. Same goes for all the famous couples: A6MvsF6F, Fw190vsSpit etc etc.

High speed maneouverability of these planes is completely useless if you are trying to outmaneouver your opponent. It is only useful in high deflection shooting and evading.

p1ngu666
09-23-2006, 11:32 AM
russian planes often have worse elivator than 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

g6 and spit IX are closely matched, but the spit pretty much has the edge everywhere...

Vike
09-23-2006, 12:11 PM
Hayate,historically the Me109-G2 caused a lot of probems to the contemporary soviet fighters.
If Oleg's team tones down this plane abilities,they would also tone down every soviet fighter abilities for the 1942/43 period and before,in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I *personnally* can bear with it! http://www.farcry-thegame.com/fr/images/smileys/partyconfetti.gif

[EDIT]
After the argument,here is the exemple: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.airpages.ru/img/bf109g2_1s.jpg

"Soviet pilot in the cockpit of Bf 109G-2/R-6 No. 13903, January 1943. Captured near Stalingrad and tested in the Soviet Union using the designation "Five-Pointer", <span class="ev_code_yellow">this fighter seriously worried the Red Army Air Forces leadership due to its excellent flight capabilities"</span>

-Here- (from a *russian* site) (http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg2.pl?page=imgbf109g2_1)


Originally posted by anarchy52:
Top aces scored most of their victories flying that type.

Let's see:
Bf-109G6
weight: 3153kg
power/weight: 0.41 HP/kg
wingloading: 195 kg/m^2

La-5
weight: 3321kg
power/weight: 0.41 HP/kg
wingloading: 190 kg/m^2

La has 2.5 % lower wingloading, but it's heavier and larger wing and radial engine probably don't help with drag either. In real world those 2 were pretty close in performance at least below 3k. Above 3k G6 has distinct advantage.

In you-is-wrong world, La-5 has 20% sustained turn rate advantage, especially high speed.

While we're at high speed elevator responsiveness - where did willy screw up? Why is 109 so stiff compared to almost every other fighter?

Interesting! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

By testing some stuff on crimea map @:
-full realism settings
-full throttle
-sea level
-rads closed

i got those figures:

109 G2 1942:
-TAS maxi=545Km/h

109 G6 "Late" 1943:
-TAS maxi=537Km/h
(pitch at 62% + ball centered gives 539Km/h)

109 G6 "early" 1943:
-TAS maxi=530Km/h
(pitch at 62% + ball centered gives 532Km/h)

109 F4 1941:
-TAS maxi=528Km/h

109 F2 1941:
-TAS maxi=520Km/h

Indeed,as a Me109 <STRIKE>troll</STRIKE> fan http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif,the G6 is the only one of the serie in which i can't fight with effectiveness when alone.

For me,the main problem with the G6-Early (and the G6-Late too) is its VERY bad accelerations and climb abilities. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Thus,i decided to make some engine tests between the G2 and G6-Early as both planes had the same engine,but with more HP for the G6 (!) I did those engines tests on ground with chocks.

I looked carefully at every dashboard indicators at some given regimes,to understand and extrapolate *what* would make the differences between the G2 and the G6 behaviour when in the sky.

At 100% throttle,the G2 and G6 engines behave *apparently* the same way,i.e 2700rpm.Ok.
Remembering the fact that they have both a DB605-A engine,but with a bit more HP for the G6,all seem quite normal...

So,i wondered what was the thing that would devour the G6 engine power like that,when i maneuver with this plane in the IL2-PF's sky. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Then,i noticed THE difference between the two planes:

The automated prop pitch indicator! (the two yellow needles you can see in this 109G2 dashboard screenshot,number 13 (http://www.partizanska-eskadrila.com/reference/109g.htm))

=>
At a given regime,the needles don't behave exaclty the same way,although it is practically the same engine! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

As this is the automated prop pitch which regulates the engine power and rpm while in maneuver in the sky,i'm quite certain that the automated prop pitch is THE G6's problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Nevertheless,i would think there is no hope that it will be corrected as the patch 4.06/07m and aboveall SoW:BOB are coming to us.
But i still hope in the SoW:BOB's future add-ons,we'll get a...

True and all-mighty Me109-G6! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/Me109G6-R6.jpg

@+

JG52Karaya-X
09-23-2006, 12:17 PM
Thus,i decided to make some engine tests between the G2 and G6-Early as both planes had the same engine,but with more HP for the G6 (!) I did those engines tests on ground with chocks.

Why do you think the G2 and G6 have different power outputs? Ingame they all have the same power, namely 1310PS at takeoff (1.3ata althought the ata gauge shows 1.42). None of them has 1475PS (1.42ata) which was cleared in late 1943.

Vike
09-23-2006, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Why do you think the G2 and G6 have different power outputs? Ingame they all have the same power, namely 1310PS at takeoff (1.3ata althought the ata gauge shows 1.42). None of them has 1475PS (1.42ata) which was cleared in late 1943.

Sorry i didn't know that.i knew there were mistakes in the ingame descriptions,but i didn't know for the G2/G6. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

So you said that our ingame G2/G6 have exactly the same engine power?
That would make my tests even more clearer about the fact there is something really weird with the automated prop pitch regulator... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

carguy_
09-23-2006, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Why do you think the G2 and G6 have different power outputs? Ingame they all have the same power, namely 1310PS at takeoff (1.3ata althought the ata gauge shows 1.42). None of them has 1475PS (1.42ata) which was cleared in late 1943.


The G2 presents ingame performance surpassing this of 109G2 rated Ata1.3.We had a looong thread about it.Lots of finnish tests too.Almost all performance figures are optimistic and fit the 1.42AtA rated G2 most likely.

Badsight-
09-23-2006, 03:28 PM
not true Carguy

the FB G2 performs as a 1.3ATA boosted G2 up to 4K , when you look at the climb times for 0 to 6K you gat a faster time than you should

but at low alts its climb power is as its meant to be

Vike
09-23-2006, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
MK108 is very good for this type of aircraft.It counts when you got one or two shooting chances.

I totally agree! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
And not only because i personally love the Mk108,but for the G6 "as it is in our sim",we can't play the fiery valiant knight like we can do in 109F4/G2/G6-AS equipped with 20mm canon,due to its sluggish engine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Especially when alone... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Boemher,the best you can do with the G6 is,i think,to stay as high as you can and use the MK108 for quick-kills,as your attack opportunities will be *very* short. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

At least,while in a dive,the G6 behaves almost like a G2.In a dive only. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Because as soon as you are obliged to raise the nose of your G6 at the horizon or above,prepare your parachute if an enemy is around. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

@+

Xiolablu3
09-23-2006, 10:11 PM
I was taken out by a 109 G6 last night on a aserver.

I was in a SPitfire IXe Clipped Wing, and I shot one 109 down and then his wingman was on my 6, I was low on the deck. I really had no idea what to do to escape? (I never fly the clipped Spits, always full winged)

I could not outturn him as I usually do in a SPit becasue of the clipped wing, and he was blasting his mighty Mk108 at me from about 100 metres.

I could not dive and gain speed because the first fight had made me low. I had no idea what to do except scissors, but he wasnt falling for that. His Mk108 took my wing off after a 1 minute chase.

109G6 is certainly a worry for a Clipped SPit IX. It can outturn him , outdive him, and possibly the cimb is very close too. Climbing eascape is of limited value once your pursuer is very close anyway, as it creates a very easy shot for him.

Has anyone any suggestions on what I could have done to eascape? Free ice cream for the best suggestion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kuna_
09-23-2006, 11:51 PM
Outturn him? On higher speed?
Spitfire should be more manouverable. And that is your ONLY card in close up and personal situations where Bf-109 is close on your six. If he follow he'll start to lose that kind of fight, if he tries angles on you (turn inside), you will simply outrun him (escape) because he must lower his speed.
On decent speed there's no way that Bf-109 can turn with Spitfire, Spit turn like bat on those speeds.

What you have explained there is classic scenario... conventional faster turn means little when stall speed is higher and in the end fighter that can utilise less energy better wins in such situations. When fight is close to the ground well it can be really impossible to defend such situation (no dive option to build up the speed).

Bf-109 is literally champion in that, hanging out on a prop truly gets a new meaning when performed by a Bf-109. Acceleration/deceleration is also remarkable. Spit will drop his wing insanely and will be tough to controll at such very low speeds...

It isn't really a wonder why I consider Bf-109 series as one of the most pleasant planes to fly, and exceptional dogfighter... I had major success with it on pure arcade dogfight open to all pistons servers. Outturned, literally outturned zillion Spitfire pilots. I started flying Sturmovik on Bf-109. It was somewhat tougher back in those days.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 01:04 AM
It was a clipped wing Spitfire IX Kuna. The 109 can turn at least as well as a clipped IX.

If I tried to pick up speed by flying straight, he would have had a very easy shot.

There is no correct answer, I dont think. I tried to use my fast roll to scissors, but the roll didnt actually seem that fast, to say that a clipped Spit is suppsed to roll as fast as a FW190 at lower speeds.

JG52Karaya-X
09-24-2006, 02:57 AM
Xiola, in IL2 every Spit can outturn any 109, especially the G6 which has a ridiculous turn time of 23secs...

Best turn time of the IXc clipped is ~19sec vs ~23 for both G6s so in a sustained turn fight you should have absolutely no problem of outturning your enemy. Maybe you didn't push the aircraft to its limits or you were flying a "dirty" turn with the ball not centered...

Willey
09-24-2006, 03:38 AM
... is teh suck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/1womo.gif

http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif

carguy_
09-24-2006, 03:49 AM
LOL if one`s havin trouble fightin G6 in a SpitfireIX,there must be something wrong with the pilot! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


You havin trouble?Make an Immelmann and then a high yoyo immediately.No Messerscmitt will follow this maneuver.At low speed flat turn the 109 has an initial advantage since the slats let it pull a higher AoA than the Spitfire so if he is good,he has a chance of getting a solution on you for a few seconds but that requires him to dump energy.If he misses,you are already on top of him.Sustained turn performance is also VERY different,about 4-6seconds.


So you just do not know the Spitfire.Horizontal maneuvers must be made with a huge doze of vertical maneuvers.In those situations the eliptical wings seem to create an anti-gravity zone.

Genie-
09-24-2006, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
It was a clipped wing Spitfire IX Kuna. The 109 can turn at least as well as a clipped IX.

... no wonder you have more then 3000 posts here...

tigertalon
09-24-2006, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Xiola, in IL2 every Spit can outturn any 109, especially the G6 which has a ridiculous turn time of 23secs...

I have to disagree. Bf109G-2 outturns the full winged spits at VERY low, stalling speed. When slats come out, it remains very stable, when spit becomes stally. I guess G-6 follows closely.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 06:48 AM
I am SURE that the 109G6 has a better turn time than 23 secs? Thats only one sec less than the FW190A.

Carguys post doesnt count as an answer, cos he didnt read the situation I was in. (Very low speed after downing one 109 and with his wingman on my 6 very close)

I dont fly the Clipped wing SPit IX much but it certainly seem very close in turn with the 109G6 at low speeds. I will try outurning him next time, if you guys are sure it will work.

Maybe it was just in my head that I could not, so I never pushed the Spit in the turn.

Oh and please read the situation I was in, before anyone else posts 'OMG he cant down a 109 in SpitIX wot a nub' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Brain32
09-24-2006, 06:56 AM
This is stupid lol. 109G2 will outturn a LATER(MkIX,MkVIII) Spitfire at very, very low speed IF(and that's a big IF because I yet have to see it different) Spit pilot does not have his flaps maped on a slider in which case he can effectively use combat flap setting. MkV will not be outturned by G2 under any circumstance, same goes for the "SpitMkOleg +25 lbs of pure BS".
Regarding G6 early Spit MkIX outruns, outclimbs and outturns it at all altitudes.
What 109's up to and including G6 can do is hang with a Spitfires in a turn when(and only then) they catch them at very bad E-state, a state in which Spit can not pull as insanely as usual because it will stall, usually happens at about 240kmh and less when anti gravity pods get weaker...
Ofcourse later models can't even do that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 07:00 AM
Ahem 'Clipped'

I have no problem outturning a 109 in a Full winged Spitfire IX.

Brain32
09-24-2006, 07:13 AM
Same goes for the clip, except it is not as good as full wing at very low speed and at higher altitudes(contrail level and higher). It still outturns the 109G6, strugles with G2 only at extremely low speeds(sub 300kmh)...

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 07:29 AM
DOes anyone have a link for IL2 compare? I googled and searched the board but could not find it.

I would like to check this Spit IX Clipped vs 109G6 turn myself, before I die a sad death again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG52Karaya-X
09-24-2006, 08:40 AM
Xiola, I had a look at IL2Compare 3.0.2 (that's the newest) and it shows a best turn time for the SpitIXc clipped of 18.98sec and a best turn time for the G6early of 22.9sec and this about the exact same time that I get in my tests.

Looking at the turn graph the G6early seems to be SLIGHTLY better below 280km/h but drastically worse above. Anyway the Spit will have outturned you long before you drop down to 280km/h and below.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 10:46 AM
Rgr thanks Karaya, I just realised (after todays flight) that I got into the habit of very shallow turns as I have always been energy fighting and trying to conserve my energy. I got into a clipped wing SPit and was unsure how far I could push it in the turn.

I have been flying FW190's and P51 so long I had forgotten how to fly a good old TnB fight.

Fighting Spitfires in a Zero A6m3 today I realised I had a lot more 'turn' left before the plane stalled and flipped.

I was basically not turning to the planes full potential. I also think maybe I was under 300k where the CLipped Spit and 109G6 are very close.

Next time I will feel confident that I can beat him in the turn http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thx.

p1ngu666
09-24-2006, 11:12 AM
try barrel rolling maybe?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//il2c.rar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 11:16 AM
Thanks Pingu for the Il2C.

Barrel rolling was maybe an option, but I was seriously at maybe 50feet just above the trees. It was possible I would lose too much energy and crash. I was having to jink each time he fired his Mk108, so it was impossible to build up any kind of speed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Will try your suggestion.

p1ngu666
09-24-2006, 11:53 AM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//P1020117.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//P1020119.jpg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shot-Down-Flames-Geoffrey-Page/...4690-7159033?ie=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shot-Down-Flames-Geoffrey-Page/dp/1902304101/ref=sr_11_1/202-1464690-7159033?ie=UTF8)

maybe hero slats wherent so effective irl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kurfurst__
09-24-2006, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
The G2 presents ingame performance surpassing this of 109G2 rated Ata1.3.We had a looong thread about it.Lots of finnish tests too.Almost all performance figures are optimistic and fit the 1.42AtA rated G2 most likely.

BS, the official specs at 1.3ata were 537kph at SL and 660kph at 7000m - the ingame 1942 109G2 certainly NOT surpasses these. Also it's sustained turn times are exactly spot on what was achieved in the only timed 109G turn test we know, the one from the NII VVS.

Really this G-2 is too good whining is getting boring, it's just so baseless.

JtD
09-24-2006, 01:00 PM
Yeah, and officially the G models would go 700+ in 1942. Sadly, physics didn't quite agree with official numbers.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 01:13 PM
I love 109G2/FW190A5 vs La5/Yak9 fighter duals, its a great match up.

RAF has its 'low point' a little earlier than the LW with the Spitfire Mk V (The worst competing Spitfire compared to contemporary opposition.)

Although when the LW are stuck with the 109G6, they have the FW190 which is a far better option in my opinon.

I have been flying FW190/P51 for so long now that I had forgotten how to turnfight.

Kernow
09-24-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
..the situation I was in. (Very low speed after downing one 109 and with his wingman on my 6 very close)
Given that situation, it doesn't really matter what you were in or what he was in, does it? The piss-poor tactical situation is far more relevant than the relative performance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Of course, you'd want to try something and the advice to try a tight turn would seem best, IMO (probably reversing every 90 degrees or so to make use of the good roll rate). Just not so tight it becomes a stall fight, where, as Brain pointed out, the Spit looses out due to its inability to use combat flap - unless you circumvent this restriction with a slider... As several have pointed out the Spit - inc clipped-wing Spit - generally easily outturns any 109, but it's also generally true that in a slow stall fight where the 109 can use combat flap the Spit will be outturned or will at least have next to no advantage. The exception being the Mk.V, which has a lower best turn speed anyway.

Pingu, that can't be true - he was turning a Spit after he'd been hit. Everyone knows the Spit can't turn once the paintwork is scratched.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 04:09 PM
You hit the nail on the head there Kernow. I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions.

I DID have time to do SOMETHING, because he was missing a lot when firing, but as I had to jink to avoid it, its hard to build up any kind of energy.

Like you say, in any plane in that situation, you are unlikely to escape. I usually think after I have been shot down 'Now what could I have done differently there?' and try it the next time I get into that same situaion.

This one had me stumped tho. I couldnt really think of anything I could have done.

I was however wondering wha the BEST course of action would have been, for example, if I was in :

FW190 - I would try to extend as fast as possible, whilst rolling left and right quickly to spoil his aim.

SPit non clipped : Pull hard and try and outturn him

Zero : Outturn again.

The CLipped SPit had me stumped for the best course of action tho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think the best course of action next time will be to not follow a bandit down so low and slow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kernow
09-24-2006, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
...
FW190 - I would try to extend as fast as possible, whilst rolling left and right quickly to spoil his aim.

... I think the best course of action next time will be to not follow a bandit down so low and slow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
You might have tried the 190 tactic, as I suspect the IX is faster than the G-6 on the deck, but it would be a real long-shot as the 109 would accelerate better to start with and if he hit you at all you'd lose all your performance anyway. Yes, on reflection, that last course of action is the best 'escape.' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Manu-6S
09-24-2006, 04:20 PM
Question about Spitfire's flaps since I'm not used to fly her:

With BF109 I usually use a little combat flaps, only in the initial stage of my turn, and I never fly stall fights; so after 1-2 second I turn off the flaps to regain speed.

Since Spits haven't "combat" position but flaps need several seconds between "normal" and "landing" stage, why don't you use only the first 2 seconds to tight the turn?

I can't remember well but maybe I just used this technique with success in the Spit... or maybe it's only the Spit quality. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
09-24-2006, 04:38 PM
yeah u can do that, just cycle the flap, u do risk jamming it. if you have wobbles then u often need to just for stability in a turn, 109 had manual flaps, u turn a wheel and they come down..

luftluuver
09-24-2006, 05:18 PM
There is enough whinning about the Spit without using unhistorical flaps settings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kwiatos
09-25-2006, 02:08 AM
Some nice story:

"Within few minutes, one of Horbaczewski's wingmen spotted German fighters approaching through a fiord's inlet, heading for the Beaufighters. There were two groups of four Bf-109's each, leisurely, almost nonchalantly carrying out a left-hand turn to take up position to attack the Canadians. Jettisoning our fuel tanks, we attacked. Horbaczewski went in first attacking the inner group and I engaged the outer formation. They were taken completely by surprise at first. They turned toward us having learned a thing or two in battles over France. They had been told the Spitfire shuddered when diving and with us approaching out of the sun they had not recognized our Mustang - they dived towards the sea.

In diving and climbing in a left hard turn, I engaged the group leader. By the way in which he scythed through the air, the edges of his Messer's wings stitching the sky with air-condensed threads, I realized he was a good pilot. He pulled out hard, but so did I! With the fuselage fuel tank still full and the Mustang's adverse lateral stability, there wasn't much room for imaginative maneuvering, so I had to hold a steady, smooth turn. With a few hundred revs always in reserve, I held on patiently. For 360 degree circle or more there was stalemate. I lowered flaps 10 degrees and was gaining on him. My solar plexus stopped churning as I felt sure of getting on his tail, all the time thinking: "Pull smoothly. Get that extra reserve throttle on".

I got him in my gunsights' illuminated ring, pulled straight through his line of flight, one diameter - two - three of deflection and then pressed the firing button. For a split second there as nothing then I saw the bullets punching holes, first on his tail section and then the fuselage, canopy and wings......

When converting from Spitfire VB's to Mustangs at ALG Coolham, in April/May 1944, Henryk Stefankiewicz and myself, tried many brainstorming ideas. When engaging the enemy low, over ground or sea, there was only one maneuver at the fighter pilot's disposal, an ideally constructed tight turn. When Mustang's speed dropped to 220-240 mph, by lowering 10 degrees of flaps the pilot could get on to his opponent's tail in no time. At a safe height, "Mysz" as he was affectionately known, and I, by altering the configuration of the Mustangs, proved it really worked.

There was considerable danger though. The Mustang was a great but unforgiving machine. When flaps were down, if pulled crudely, and at an even lower speed, say 200, it could stall. When told about our experiment, Horbaczerwski would not have it. He told us not to discuss it with the other pilots, saying: "Flaps or no flaps, I don't want to see my pilots falling from the skies"

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/cwynar/cwynar.htm

Kernow
09-25-2006, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
There is enough whinning about the Spit without using unhistorical flaps settings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Too right; no need for it anyway.

Nice account Kwiatos.

Back in the early days of IL-2 I used to fly 109s quite a bit. Despite being in a 'Russian' squad I ended up flying Blue in an attempt to keep numbers something like even. Remember those days? When a server with a 'realistic' planeset was one where allied and axis planes were not available to both sides, so Blue was outnumbered seeing as 90% of people could be found in La-5FNs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (it's still very good, but looking at IL-2C data for 109G-6/AS v La-5FN now and comparing them to the figs I got from testing in 1.1*, well, 'best ever FMs' have certainly changed a great deal). Anyway, the point is, I used to fly the 109 quite a bit in squad training or d/f rooms and the G-6/AS was the only one with something like a competitive FM. Back then there was no CEM, of course.

When CEM was introduced (FB I think) 109s initially flew better with manual prop management rather than the default auto, or so it was said. Now, I thought that had been fixed, but have been meaning to ask and there are a few experts on the current 109 in this thread. I never used to get on with the 190, but these days it's my prefered German fighter / jabo. I thought that was supposed to run best with the default kommandogaeret prop' governing, but it doesn't, so I only use that in the cruise and turn it off for max power, treating the prop as a normal CSP. It's that which prompts me to ask, how do you run the prop in the 109, manual or auto? If manual, what rpm is it a really good idea not to exceed?

carguy_
09-25-2006, 04:05 AM
On the 190 you can also use Auto PP when going faster than 390kph as the manual PP has trouble exceeding that.Very important for energy fighting.


As for the 109manual PP,the whiners ruined everything.Nobody uses it actually although the auto PP performs as bad as the FW190autoPP.Currently factory RPMs are about the only thing we have.The realistic trait of butchering your engine in exchange for two minutes of extra power up to 2950RPM is gone.Now you go over 2800RPM,you cook the engine instantly.So the whiners made a change that suggests that the 2800RPM figure is exactly the last thing relatively safe to run,letting overheat issues aside.

Ofcourse in this case those who fly blue instead of flying them they started "gaming the game" as in exploiting anything they could find.Needless to say,those were a minority,along with the idiot who wonderfully cheated in IL2 China championship,showing the exploit to all the crowd.Whiners did the rest.

Previously,running the manualpp was not safe.Now it is a sure way tomake your plane fall off the sky.Button inputs are "filtered" with a two second latency.


The worst example of this is the Emil.The engine runs on 90% power with the throttle pushed all over to 110%.


Finally,both the FW190/Me109 Kommandogerat systems seem to suffocate during steep climbs.The phenomenon is observed by the AtA gauge and results in sudden loss of power.

Ratsack
09-25-2006, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
On the 190 you can also use Auto PP when going faster than 390kph as the manual PP has trouble exceeding that...

I don't understand.

Ratsack

carguy_
09-25-2006, 06:07 AM
Ok.

What I found is that manual prop pitch on the FW190 makes the plane accelerate better up to 390km/h.Acceleration to speeds higher than that on manualPP is a lot worse than autoPP,even in a dive.

Additionaly,auto prop pitch tends to hold those higher speeds a lot longer than the manualPP when flying smoothly.Comes in handy when zooming up and running away leveled although always remember to switch to manualPP everytime the speed falls lower than 390km/h.

Generally it feels as if the manualPP was the 3rd gear,autoPP being the 5thgear.

HellToupee
09-25-2006, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Xiola, I had a look at IL2Compare 3.0.2 (that's the newest) and it shows a best turn time for the SpitIXc clipped of 18.98sec and a best turn time for the G6early of 22.9sec and this about the exact same time that I get in my tests.

Looking at the turn graph the G6early seems to be SLIGHTLY better below 280km/h but drastically worse above. Anyway the Spit will have outturned you long before you drop down to 280km/h and below.

latest il2compare lists g6 early best turn time of 21.64 sec at a best turn speed of 316kmh, i certianlly get well under 23seconds in my experence.

HellToupee
09-25-2006, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
As for the 109manual PP,the whiners ruined everything.Nobody uses it actually although the auto PP performs as bad as the FW190autoPP.Currently factory RPMs are about the only thing we have.The realistic trait of butchering your engine in exchange for two minutes of extra power up to 2950RPM is gone.Now you go over 2800RPM,you cook the engine instantly.So the whiners made a change that suggests that the 2800RPM figure is exactly the last thing relatively safe to run,letting overheat issues aside.


no their is no cumulative dammage, any pilot with half a brain could use the exploit indefinaitly with no dammage as long as they didnt exceed the limits like with overheat for example, u can run in overheat no matter what temp as long as u cool it below the overheat limit before a set time then run it back up to those temps again and again.


What I found is that manual prop pitch on the FW190 makes the plane accelerate better up to 390km/h.Acceleration to speeds higher than that on manualPP is a lot worse than autoPP,even in a dive.

generally accelerates better at all speeds it will also reach a higher top speed than autopp.

Ratsack
09-25-2006, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
What I found is that manual prop pitch on the FW190 makes the plane accelerate better up to 390km/h.Acceleration to speeds higher than that on manualPP is a lot worse than autoPP,even in a dive.

generally accelerates better at all speeds it will also reach a higher top speed than autopp. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's my experience, too.

Ratsack

whiteladder
09-25-2006, 08:01 AM
generally accelerates better at all speeds it will also reach a higher top speed than autopp.


That's my experience, too.

What do find is the best pp for maximum speed.

Ratsack
09-25-2006, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">generally accelerates better at all speeds it will also reach a higher top speed than autopp.


That's my experience, too.

What do find is the best pp for maximum speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In controlled conditions (i.e., Crimea, 1200 hours, wind turbulence off, overheat off, 100% fuel, clear weather, etc) I find max speed is achieved with 100% PP. It's generally about 10-15 km/h faster than in auto PP, although the margin varies with altitude.

In practice, 100% PP will very quickly lead to overheat at start und notleistung settings (110% power with boost on). In the online situation, I find that full power and 100% PP is great for initial acceleration and for emergencies (like when you absolutely must get another 100 m between you and that Spit). Otherwise, I follow the general rule that if I don't have a good reason to go for max performance, I will cool the engine.

cheers,
Ratsack

Brain32
09-25-2006, 09:29 AM
latest il2compare lists g6 early best turn time of 21.64 sec at a best turn speed of 316kmh, i certianlly get well under 23seconds in my experence.
Latest il2compare(v302) lists 23secs for turn time at 300kmh(300-320 is best turn) for G6Early, and I think it's pretty correct, maybe a bit more than that...

faustnik
09-25-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
generally accelerates better at all speeds it will also reach a higher top speed than autopp.

This is what I have found as well, with <80% being a safe range (this is for the A series, the Dora does great on auto). Unfortunately, it shouldn't be the case, the Fw190 should achieve the "manual" acceleration, speed and climb levels on "auto" with the overheat times associated with auto. It's no big deal, you can fiddle with PP and radiator as a work around, but, it does negate one of the historical advantages of the plane.

Has anyone specifically tested the benefits of manual pitch in the Bf109 an Spit IX? I know a lot of guys use manual pitch in both those planes.

Brain32
09-25-2006, 10:14 AM
Has anyone specifically tested the benefits of manual pitch in the Bf109 an Spit IX? I know a lot of guys use manual pitch in both those planes.
I haven't really tested just tried in "combat" and saw no real benefits of using PP, it seems that Spit can accelerate better in a dive with lower pp, while 109 can gain a bit while on low speed(climb and stall states into level flight) but that was highly subjective. Anything more than 60% PP on a 109G10 in level flight will kill the engine VERY quickly in my expirience.
Tempest is the plane that benefits by far the most by pp management of all planes in il2 and even has a nasty exploit related to it, which I reported to 1C...got no response...time will show...

Kernow
09-25-2006, 10:22 AM
Interesting, Carguy, I've found 100% to be best whatever the speed in the 190. If I switch to auto the rpm drops a little and speed too I'm sure. I do use auto for the dive if I'm throttled back as I don't want the prop windmilling at high rpm and thus causing drag, and auto seems to automatically give a low rpm with the throttle back. When I zoom I push the throttle forward and go back to manual pp. I fight at 90/90 and save 100% + WEP for running away. Max power does give a quick o/heat, but you have at least 4 mins from warning to permanent damage and you can go a long way in that time: far enough I find http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. The most noticeable difference between auto and manual in the 190 is in take-off distance: in auto you tend to need the whole runway - switch to manual and see how much less space you need.


The worst example of this is the Emil.The engine runs on 90% power with the throttle pushed all over to 110%.
Oh yes, I'd noticed that. I have been running the Emil in manual pp when I really need power. I don't know if it really helps and I do o/heat at once, but the engine just sounds so gutless in auto with a pathetic looking rpm.


Has anyone specifically tested the benefits of manual pitch in the Bf109 an Spit IX? I know a lot of guys use manual pitch in both those planes
Faustnik, I do use manual in the Spit IX, but in the opposite sense to the way I use it in the 190. In the Spit you do get 100% rpm with the throttle fully forward; in fact you get damn near 100% rpm with it back at 70% or so. So in combat auto is fine, but for cruising it runs the engine at higher rpm than is needed. I switch to manual for cruising and then hit auto for combat, although I don't know how much cooler that keeps the engine in the cruise - but it can't hurt and saves fuel. In the 190, as we've seen, you get less rpm than you'd want in combat, so auto is fine for cruising or diving with the throttle back, but for max power you need to go manual.

Kernow
09-25-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Tempest is the plane that benefits by far the most by pp management of all planes in il2 and even has a nasty exploit related to it, which I reported to 1C...got no response...time will show...
Didn't know about that. However, I'm not sure what they've done with the modelling of the Tempest rpm and 'WEP.' I did notice you can not get the max rpm out of the Sabre (3700) at 100% rpm ('pp') unless you engage WEP - you get about 3000 rpm otherwise. As far as I can tell you got 3700 rpm in a real Tempest just by pushing the propellor speed control fully forward. I can find no reference to any button, switch or the like that engaged a different rpm regime. It wouldn't be a wire locked barrier either, as 3700 rpm was used on every flight for take-off. To fly the Tempest iaw the Pilots' Notes you need to take-off and climb with 'WEP' on - max gives take-off / emergency power and 90/90 gives the '1 hour limit' setting for climbing and combat. You don't o/heat when climbing at 90/90+WEP with rad open - maybe after an hour, but I'm not testing that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. Turning WEP off at top-of-climb gives reasonable cruise settings. Anyone know what - if anything - the 'WEP' button actually represents in the Tempest?