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BSS_Vidar
04-19-2007, 02:21 PM
Can we get the AI gunners to start loosing accuracy when the player/pilot starts to aggressivley manuever his plane?

Real Life example: SBD alone with 3 Zekes out manuevers the Zekes with 9G turns, beating the Zekes into a head on senerio. The pilot shoots down 2 while the third losses his port wing tip from collision after a head to head pass.

Tailgunner never gets a shot off due to being either tunneled out, or the his 50 cal is just way to heavy to manipulate for a shot in the high G environment.

Too many times its been funny to watch Betty, D3A, and SBD drivers do Hi-yackas to bring their gunners to bear on you. They rip you to shreds with high accuracy in a plane pitching and rolling all over the place.

Can we get this dumbed down a bit plz?

MaxMhz
04-19-2007, 04:03 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif Sounds nice, but eh...

May I remind you the CPU cycles in your computer are limited?

What you suggest would increase the demands on computer processing beyond the limits of even the best systems around, So - Even if the developement team had time and were not busy with SoW:BoB and the IL-2 series were not finished with Sturmovik 1946 There's not a snowball's chance in hell they would divert all their resources to re-program all the AI routines in a game that's more than 5 years old...
Nice dream though - even if it stays a dream http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OneMug
04-19-2007, 04:50 PM
IMHO, ever since the first IL-2, the gunners have been 'way too accurate. Based on historical kills from bombers, I think it's unrealistic. But I don't think anything is going to change now though. Maybe BOB?

Now if you're "dead" 6 o'clock with no lateral relative motion, they SHOULD cut you to ribbons. Attack from where there will be the fewest guns pointing at you.

Against a Dauntless or Stuka, stay low, get close, pull up and blow them up before you get level with the gunner's field of fire. If they don't go down from that attack, roll away & dive. Repeat. (OTOH, I don't know why the AI pilots don't turn into you so the gunner will get an angle off and have a chance of hitting a plane below them.)

Against heavier bombers, start from a position above, to one side, and a little ahead of the bomber. Keep jinking even at a distance. That does seem to help not getting hit. When you see the tracers coming, start moving. You can avoid them, depending on the distance.

Fly a steep pursuit curve, trying not to get behind the bomber's wing line. ("Axis" bombers don't have a 360 degree field of fire. "Allies" do!) The more you "dive" in your attack, the more of the bomber's wings and engines you'll have to hit.

You have to keep a high "angle off" and make the gunners traverse their guns fast to keep them from hitting you. It's harder for you to hit them too. Shoot in range. DON'T slide in behind the bomber. Use your "delta" velocity & roll to a point that has the fewest guns shooting at you again. Fly back up to your attack perch. Keep jinking. Keep moving. Watch out for fighter cover.

Well, it's complicated and difficult. There are a lot of tricks. Pick a straggler. Hit the leader first (fewer nose guns from the bombers, compared to aft firing weapons. Also if you gt the leader, the squadron might scatter). Have your flight all attack at the same time. Etc.

Not that it's easy for me, I'll tell you. I got plenty of P-40s shot up with those damn Betty bombers because they were faster and had a 20mm canon in the tail! But I got a few.

This may be useful to newbies. Hope so. Also hope BOB has more realistic bomber gunners. OneMug

KG26_Alpha
04-20-2007, 09:24 PM
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by OneMug:
IMHO, ever since the first IL-2, the gunners have been 'way too accurate. Based on historical kills from bombers, I think it's unrealistic.

Whats unrealistic is the ratio in IL2 between bomber formations and fighters.

You cant have the historical bomber formations, one comprimise might be to have 1 fighter v 20 bombers if you want historical, as we know thats no exactly mission friendly as far as team play goes, IIRC Oleg had the bombers guns set to replicate massed formations with smaller flights of 4-8-16 so set the ai gunners to rookie depaendant on the formation size. One way I make massed bomber formations of 30 B17's is to have the "Box" set with only the outer formations with ammo and the inner set to empty, this gives a good size formation for coop play with no lag due to ai gunnery and pilots have to very careful attacking throuh the box.

As for AI firing when bombers are cut in half etc..well thats the game coding they shoot untill there are in the ground.

As stated better tactics are to be employed especialy against multi gun stationed bombers, read above.

S!

BSS_Vidar
04-21-2007, 01:29 PM
Better tactics? That goes without saying guys. I never, ever drive up a bomber's 6. I always attack in flanking passes and try to take out the pilot. Too much ammo is wasted on trying to take out the airframe. On SBD's and D3A's I come up behind and underneith the tail.

The problem is, many bomber pilots (no matter what they fly) start to yank-n-bank their plane around to get their AI's to do their diry work for them.

They don't have to make a program that counter's every G load, then makes you super-duper-puter run like molasis. Just dumb down AI gunnery (as a whole) a tad to even things out a bit for the gaming environment.

horseback
04-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Alpha, the ratio of bombers to fighters over German was the exception rather than the rule.

That is a late-war scenario, with large groups of bombers with the most modern turrets and well trained gunners firing heavy caliber guns, flying in formations designed to make the most of mutual protection.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">And they still desperately needed fighter escorts.</span> This game engine has always turned the bomber vs fighter contest on it's head.

Most early war scenarios involve small or very ragged formations that offered little in the way of mutual support, plus very poorly designed gunner postions, poorly trained gunners, and small caliber guns. A one fighter on a four bomber formation scenario handed ALL the advantages to the fighter pilot.

He had greater control of where his guns were pointed, he had the easiest deflection to compute, and he had an effective optical sight. A fighter with its guns set to converge at 300m could consistantly make effective hits on a twin engine or larger plane from 400m all the way down to less than 150m without any likelihood of being hit by return fire from is victim, even while approaching from a level six.

In game, the player is picked out from his AI wingmen for special attention at ranges and angles literally impossible for a real life gunner, no matter how gifted, to duplicate, even at Rookie skill levels. Part of this is due to AI piloting being supernaturally smooth and stable, part of it is due to the Godlike situational awareness of the AI, and I suspect that part of it is due to an unrealistic 'scoring' of the damage those light caliber guns do.

The AI gunner model is a load of ^%#&!^%*@, and should be acknowledged as such from a realism and immersion standpoint.

I understand and agree that since it can't be fixed in the current game engine, we have to deal with it as it is, but there is no justification for pretending that it is anything but silly and unrealistic.

cheers

horseback

KG26_Alpha
04-21-2007, 06:45 PM
Whos talking about bombers over Germany ?

The example I made works in any theatre.

There were hundreds of D017's He111 Ju88's bf110 attacking The British Isles at anyone time, Hurricane pilots didnt know where to start with them.

The point is in IL2 you cant really have the correct fighter v bomber ratios.

I know this as usually theres 4-5 fighters attacking a formation of 4 bombers and if you are the human bomber the ai gunners are useless and you have to make sure you have spent a lot of time with those gunner positions to defend youself, a human pilot will attack you untill hes guns are dry and then might try to ram you, AI attacking bombers take a few hits and break off usually, dependant on ai settings.

The short comming of bombers in IL2 works for the defender and the attacker, human in bomber v human in fighter = one dead bomber usually (depending on aircraft types) the earlier the theatre the better for the He111 & Stuka, Ju88 have wings that catch fire and explode pilots that are killed from mg rounds going through the armour plate, B25 is quite durable but no match for late war cannons but has the best defence of any bomber so long as your 20m off the deck.

Then theres the Pe3 best shot i ever made in the gunner was slicing off a FW190's starboard wing from 700m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif its also fast and durable for a early plane.

As for being silly an unrealistic there is far worse to be addressed in IL2 that fits in that category, as explained in my earlier post the host has the responsibility to set up the bombers correctly to make a more realistic mission for fighters and bombers.

IMHO of course. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif