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Mercanario
11-25-2007, 01:49 AM
whats peoples idea of the optimum convergence distance?..500m? 400?, 300?


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MelloYello
11-25-2007, 04:43 AM
i think ive read 300m, although dont rely on my answer as i havent played il2 1946 but will soon be joining you lads in the sky soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x6BL_Brando
11-25-2007, 05:30 AM
It's a movable figure and depends on experience and also the kind of a/c you are flying, how the guns are arranged and even the size of the gun-sight's ring(s).

Personally I prefer 250m in say a Hurricane or a Spitfire - apart from anything else, it forces me to work out an an angle and speed of approach that will put me that close in, when the target will fill my
, gun-sight and allow me to direct fire at the vulnerable areas of the plane, like the engine(s), the wing roots or the cockpit. Obviously this kind of accuracy gets progressively harder to obtain if you are going to fire from further out.

The main thing in my opinion is the quality of your 'merge'. It's more likely that you will find yourself getting involved in a lot of tail-chasing when you first start as it will seem to be the most logical attack method. If it's bombers you're chasing then 300m or less will seem crazy, as the gunners will be perforating you from up to 6-700m out and they are supernaturally lethal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Eventually you'll get the message and start by manoeuvering your plane into an advantageous position before attacking.

Go here (http://www.darts-page.com) and download and view Using the Sight as a Range-finder. (and any of the other offerings there, they are all good training aids).

Finally, I wouldn't start at anything over 300m. Remember the tip about the flight of nose-mounted cannon too, that you'll see in Dart's little film.

Good luck n' happy landings!

B

tools4foolsA
11-25-2007, 05:56 AM
Lot of people complain about 'weak guns', most likely because they shoot from too far.

300m was considered long range shooting. Plenty of the great aces closed in to 150m, 100m, even less!

Do the same and you will rip planes apart with anything that has more than two light MG's...

My convergence is usually set to 150m sometimes 100m.

I never open fire over 200m. If I close in fast on target then I start firing at around 200m
When hanging on the tail of a fighter I close in to 100m before opening up.

*****

Skunk_438RCAF
11-25-2007, 06:31 AM
Depends on the task.

For air combat I go with 150m, but for ground attack I set it to 300m.

GH_Klingstroem
11-25-2007, 06:52 AM
depends on what what plane u fly in the sim!! 150 for the US planes!

Mercanario
11-25-2007, 07:31 AM
100-150m..wow!, ive been using the default convergence of 500m..now i know why i dont bring anything down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fighterduck
11-25-2007, 07:34 AM
250-300m for big caliber like 20mm cannons. 150m for .50 cal machine guns

tools4foolsA
11-25-2007, 08:25 AM
100-150m..wow!, ive been using the default convergence of 500m..now i know why i dont bring anything down Hammer

Am able to get Blenheims in two/max three passes that way in my Hayabusa.

Use same tactics in 20mm armed planes; they do reach out further as mentioned above, but at 100-150m they rip planes apart with just a short touch on the trigger. Same goes for 0,50 cal, bank of 6 absolutely deadly at 100-150m.

****

LEBillfish
11-25-2007, 08:38 AM
No one elses convergence equals your own, and over time your own settings should and will change. You need to understand it first though, as their are two aspects to it....

First off, horizontal as in how far out the point the streams from the various guns will meet....Secondly vertical, as the further the range, the more the rounds must arc. Set it too far, and you may well be shooting OVER your target.

As to the range itself, IMLTHO there is only one way to set it. Run a QMB with your plane of choice vs. a target enemy you expect to fight often. Have Icons set to on "yet ignore them", and make an Ntrk.

Fly the mission, don't worry about range or if you're even hitting, simply shoot when you instnctively would (IOW...When by reflex you fire your guns)....Save the track and repeat a few times, then review the tracks.

ALL you are looking for in the tracks is from your cockpit the range shown in the icons when you fire......Mark them down, eliminate the excessive highs and lows, then add the rest up then divide them by the number of shots you counted...........You will find at that point your average "instinctive" range you shoot at.

Take that number and let your feelings determine any change to it (may gut feel you were shooting too far, so reduce it)....Yet no more then 20m.

I think you'll find most times you shoot well under 200m, and quite possibly under 150....Anything past that you're wasting rounds, you may get hits yet it is most likely 1 round out of every 20, not 1 out of every 2.


Remember, and I'll not bore you further with trigonometry, yet the further the range you shoot the larger an area you fill with your shots....All while your target fills an ever smaller point as to your view.

Try the above, and apply it.....I wager your kills and ammo required vastly improve.

(typically I've been using 179m, recently dropping it to 139m and my kills:rounds ratio sky rocketed as I was wasting rounds shooting over my target.....I'm even considering droping it to 100m.....As 90% of my shots are made at .10km or less.)

Taylortony
11-25-2007, 09:14 AM
best way is to dive at a tree, when you are at the range you like to shoot at aircraft, fire and see the spread around the tree..... adjust your convergence then try again till you have a tight spread of impacts around the tree....you are then good to go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif:

LEBillfish
11-25-2007, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
best way is to dive at a tree, when you are at the range you like to shoot at aircraft, fire and see the spread around the tree..... adjust your convergence then try again till you have a tight spread of impacts around the tree....you are then good to go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif:

I tried that......the tree won http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

x6BL_Brando
11-25-2007, 09:21 AM
best way is to dive at a tree

Good plan! A stationary aircraft even better perhaps - just avoid gun-sight view as you close in, you'll probably go in!

B

SeaFireLIV
11-25-2007, 10:48 AM
when I first started my convergence was just left at around 400m, then later I went to 250m.

Now my convergence ranges from 100 to 250 depending on the aircraft and what I expect to be attacking. I literally change it nearly every mission, especially online.

Goes to show how complex this sim really is...

M_Gunz
11-25-2007, 11:05 AM
What kind of shooting, what kind of attacks will you be making?

If your plan is to park behind an enemy's six and then shoot, you'd better go with 150 or less.

If you're going to be using great speed and deflection then 150 or less gives you next to zero
trigger time. Even 200m is cutting it short and close.

Let's see... P-47, P-51, FW-190, do I want to get slow and try to follow the turnfighter?
Gee, please do tell!

M_Gunz
11-25-2007, 11:25 AM
BF, one .50 set 3-4 feet below your sight line and your zero is say 200m then do you think that
the shots will have crossed the sight line at any distance less than 200m and still arc back
down by 200m? When the shots cross the sight line at 200m still going up then how far out before
they cross back over? Remember that the sights are 3 to 4 feet above the barrel.

I have a FW 190A-8/R1 aiming chart that shows wing 151/20's crossing at appx 150m on the way up
and 550m on the way down with high point appx .8m above sight line at appx 360m.
Same chart the convergence crossing is set by pairs 600m, 800m and 900m. At 600m all are perhaps
3m or so width.

190A-8, bomber buster, BnZ plane. Those charts are historic.

willyvic
11-25-2007, 01:34 PM
Some very good pointers here by Billfish and TT.

I run mine at 150 and have for some time. My primary rides are 47 and 51. That convergence seems to work well for my style. The thing I have to work on is to hold the friggn trigger longer when I shoot. My muscle memory keeps kicking in and I rat-a-tat instead of rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat...

Very frustrating when making that perfect pass on someone only to end up making him/her mad instead of inoperable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WV

Divine-Wind
11-25-2007, 03:23 PM
I myself have my convergence at around 200-250 meters (Can't remember and I'm too lazy to go check http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif) for machineguns and 150 for cannons. Any farther out and it's just a waste of bullets for me, especially with my aim!

And I have the same problem, Willyvic - I tend to count one-two-three and forget that seconds are one Mississippi long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Zoring
11-26-2007, 02:13 AM
For centerally mounted guns, on the nose and wing roots i take 200 meters, as that gives me a bit more range.

125-150m for wing mounted guns always, sometimes i use a mix, like for the Zero i'll have 200 meters for the MG's and 150 for the Cannon, works for me.

DuxCorvan
11-26-2007, 03:07 AM
I only shoot when I could reach the same with a stone. Point-blank range for fighters, very fast point-blank range in the front or top -because of the nasty gunners in this sim- for bombers.

I care more about not colliding than about aiming.

Anything else is a mix of luck and marksman skills, but always -even if you hit- a waste of ammo.

OMK_Hand
11-26-2007, 04:41 AM
Hi Mercanario.

Firing at convergence distance - i.e. the one you have set - maximises firepower.
I prefer where I can to shoot at planes when I'm close. I set the convergence to 137m which is approximately 150 yards.
This does change according to the mission, but it is my preference.
Now, I can never remember how to determine range from the different types of gun sights. So...

In the QMB I set up a succession of friendly fighters to fly with, and made sure that the icons were on.
In the game, the friendly was nice and straight and level. I closed to 0.13m as stated by the icon, centred the target in the gun sight, zoomed in, and took a screenshot. (Then fired on them, obviously.)
I did this for each of the gun sight types, against likely opponents (e.g. spitfire Vs. Me109) and built a catalogue of about 11 pictures of fighters in sights at 130m distance.
I now refer to these pictures to see how big the target should be in relation to the gun sight.
This doesn't help with calculating the lead, but I find it does help with range.

Hope this is of interest (and is not too retentive).

M_Gunz
11-26-2007, 05:06 AM
For most if not all the ring should be 10m (average fighter wingspan) at 100m.

You have a good deal of latitude, the plus or minus range you are effective so if you are
closing then start from beyond converge and end inside it unless you're going a lot faster
and might crash into the target or debris from your shots.

If you are closing at 100+kph (BnZ) then the target is effectively moving towards you by
the time the shots travel to him. At close range it's not so much but 200+m it can be
10's of meters. This is affected by the guns you are using as well but worth noting as
your shots may reach him higher than if you are co-speed at the same range.

Try starting your shots at 150m when you are coming in on a 400kph (250mph) target while
you are going 600kph. You are closing then at 56m/sec. Unless you can avoid to ram in
under 3 seconds you will have no time to shoot at all. However if you do slow down to
shoot then you will need to retrim to get a steady shot and lose your advantage same time.
And it's easy enough to be coming in with much higher difference in speed.

M_Gunz
11-26-2007, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I only shoot when I could reach the same with a stone. Point-blank range for fighters, very fast point-blank range in the front or top -because of the nasty gunners in this sim- for bombers.

I care more about not colliding than about aiming.

Anything else is a mix of luck and marksman skills, but always -even if you hit- a waste of ammo.

Hit the cockpit from a bit off to the side or above or below, even just a few 7mm hits will
get through most times. You only need punch to get through armor, structure or parts like
gear (try Tu-2 engines from direct behind, the gear protect them). A stream of smaller ammo
across his path from 4 to 5 or 7 to 8 o'clock will change the plans of most fighter pilots.
Well, P-47 has some side strength and IL2 has that armor tub but only sides and bottom....

Shooting into dead six, yah you gotta be close and probably destroy the tail before you get
to the pilot.

OMK_Hand
11-26-2007, 08:56 AM
For the Me109 sight, the wings of a Spit at 120m fill the ring.
For a FW 190 sight, the same spit fills 5/6ths of the ring.
A Me109 at 120m fills the central gap in the Spitfire ring, and is almost half as big again as the ring in the Tempest.
A few examples. I was possibly feeling a little tired and emotional when i made them, so 120m is close enough as a reference. The sights are all quite different, and tough to remember along with everything else.
These dead six pictures are for size reference only, they aren't a reminder to get behind him. In a fight, manouvre to fire is the key BECAUSE it's a fight.
One fires from whatever position one happens to be in when the opportunity is created.
If however an attack from the rear is all you have, then at convergence at least he'll get the full effect, and it'll be murder rather than a fight.

The point is, 'Know your ring'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When calculting lead, I read somewhere that whatever you think it should be, add some more. That works quite well too.