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View Full Version : Oleg, one really big (possibly bad) change in RCO1/2 IMHO..



XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 12:35 AM
First off let me say that my initial impression of the release candidate is good, but it seems like every fighter goes down way too easily now. A couple 20mm rounds sends almost any plane down. My poor 190 is now fragile. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I agree that it was too tough before but now every plane seems so fragile that there doesn't seem to be much difference in P-47, P-51, FW-190, La, etc. They all go down easily from very short bursts. After doing about 40 QMB I had to check if realistic gunnery was on because every plane was falling to pieces very early.

I think the "1 bullet = one less wing" bug is still there with the 190 as it happened several times.

Haven't tested bombers yet.

Anyone else please do some QMB tests and see if all the weapons seem too strong now or if the planes all seem too weak. Any opinion/input is welcome.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 12:35 AM
First off let me say that my initial impression of the release candidate is good, but it seems like every fighter goes down way too easily now. A couple 20mm rounds sends almost any plane down. My poor 190 is now fragile. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I agree that it was too tough before but now every plane seems so fragile that there doesn't seem to be much difference in P-47, P-51, FW-190, La, etc. They all go down easily from very short bursts. After doing about 40 QMB I had to check if realistic gunnery was on because every plane was falling to pieces very early.

I think the "1 bullet = one less wing" bug is still there with the 190 as it happened several times.

Haven't tested bombers yet.

Anyone else please do some QMB tests and see if all the weapons seem too strong now or if the planes all seem too weak. Any opinion/input is welcome.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 12:39 AM
Everything seems about right now to me.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 12:41 AM
i think the new gun strengths are just right.



Message Edited on 11/10/0303:49PM by xTHRUDx

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 12:55 AM
Man, this is surprising. I thought it was really obvious. I really did check to see if realistic gunnery was on, that's how easily all planes were falling. I just find this strange since it was so blatently obvious to me. I'll keep testing but I am pretty sure my impresssion will not change at all. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 01:01 AM
one bullet equals a lost wing ? what type of bullets where you getting hit by , 303,50cal/12.7,13mm,20mm,30mm,37mm? most of these planes carried good sized guns and I think any thing over 50cal would do a great amount of damage, have you ever saw how big one of those shells are.I shoot alot of 30 cal weapons and they will dammage a automotive engine with FMJ bullets with one shot as long as they dont hit it at a odd angle.Theyll also shear sheet metal fairly easly Remember these are planes not tanks , the most planes had no more armour then a humvee maybe at most as much as a stinger (8 wheeled APC) . So if planes are easlier damaged now I think it would be for the better
Good Hunting
BTW Im still on 56k so by the time i dl 1.2RC , 1.2 final will be releasd. lol so Im just waiting

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Your not getting my buffalo wings

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 01:02 AM
ammo effect seems realistic to guncam footage, my only complaint is about the super manuevering 190s now the mustang can no long stay on thier six with the added stick pressure slower roll, p40 and hurricane

the p47 seems to be alot quicker then the p51 now and just about as manuverable.

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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 01:04 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- First off let me say that my initial impression of
- the release candidate is good, but it seems like
- every fighter goes down way too easily now. A couple
- 20mm rounds sends almost any plane down. My poor 190
- is now fragile. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I agree that it was too tough
- before but now every plane seems so fragile that
- there doesn't seem to be much difference in P-47,
- P-51, FW-190, La, etc. They all go down easily from
- very short bursts. After doing about 40 QMB I had to
- check if realistic gunnery was on because every
- plane was falling to pieces very early.
-
- I think the "1 bullet = one less wing" bug is still
- there with the 190 as it happened several times.
-
- Haven't tested bombers yet.
-
- Anyone else please do some QMB tests and see if all
- the weapons seem too strong now or if the planes all
- seem too weak. Any opinion/input is welcome.
-

The guns do seem more deadly now, but to me they feel about right. That's just my opinion though.

DangerForward

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 04:18 AM
I would like to see the impact of the guns increased. I like FW's also. I have been hosed down several times since RC1. I only went down once.(very nice shot by a P-51, cut my tail off) I've had as many as 3 successive planes hose me down. two KI's and a LA7. One quit, the other two where cleared off my six. All fired a lot of ammo at me. A lot of it hit. I landed.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 04:41 AM
Man this is strange, I must have a bad copy of the patch. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

The game feels arcade-like to me now as I can down large amounts of planes with ease. Many people are reporting that the .50's and 20mm cannons seem improved in the RC so I guess at least some people notice a difference. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but many people would like to see planes fall apart too easily IMO. I thought the DM's in 1.11 were pretty good except for Lagg and 190 (which were too tough and used a simplified DM), now I think they are all too fragile or the weapons are too strong.

As far as the 190's "one bullet = one less wing" bug I am referring to the bug where one .50 caliber round from 300 meters away can tear a wing off the 190. This isn't me making this up, I put it in quotes because it has been known for a long time.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 05:00 AM
Thats funny

I was just in a DF server, testing out a 109G6 Early. She was flying well, almost like a G2. I come up behind a mustang, hit him well with MG's and 20mm cannon. I come around for another pass with just MG's (it was high deflection and not worth the cannon rounds), amazingly i hit, and he just blew up /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 05:01 AM
Couple of things going on here:

1. Oleg reduced the recoil of guns across the board. This has the greatest impact on wing-mounted guns, especially .50 calibers (20mm also, but not as much).

2. The 190 damage model is still simplified, it has just been made globally weaker. I think this is more noticable in it's reaction to multiple medium caliber hits.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 06:05 AM
I also cut Dora's wings with only 3 MG hits (from a Mustang) on that wing. I was able to reproduce this bug so there is a problem with 1.2beta. I did not try yet RC02.

Cutting the wings with guns was a very hard thing to do. You need to put from 50-80 MG hits on the same wing from less than 200m (1 sec of fire on the same wing), which is very hard unless the plane is not maneuvering.

Leadspitter don't expect that the pictures on guncams to give you the whole picture of an aerial battle. There you see only damaged planes that take the last hits, or plane carring pilots that have died already or planes that are maneuvering relative to other aircraft, not the attacker. This is why you don't see maneuvering planes in guncam films. This does not mean that planes were not maneuvering in battle.




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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 06:57 AM
S!

After updating to 1.2 RC01 (extracted both zip files, RC_01.zip & RC_02.zip) flew P51 against FW-190A8 in QMB. I got on the 190's 6 oclock, fired the shortest possible burst from about 300m (i'm guessing, it was definately more than 200m), my convergence was set to 300m. The burst was approx. 0.20 seconds, that's TWO TENTHS of a second, and the rear fuselage of the 190 came completely off. I can send the track in if anyone wants proof.


kyrule2 wrote:
- First off let me say that my initial impression of
- the release candidate is good, but it seems like
- every fighter goes down way too easily now. A couple
- 20mm rounds sends almost any plane down. My poor 190
- is now fragile. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I agree that it was too tough
- before but now every plane seems so fragile that
- there doesn't seem to be much difference in P-47,
- P-51, FW-190, La, etc. They all go down easily from
- very short bursts. After doing about 40 QMB I had to
- check if realistic gunnery was on because every
- plane was falling to pieces very early.
-
- I think the "1 bullet = one less wing" bug is still
- there with the 190 as it happened several times.
-
- Haven't tested bombers yet.
-
- Anyone else please do some QMB tests and see if all
- the weapons seem too strong now or if the planes all
- seem too weak. Any opinion/input is welcome.
-
- <center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg
-
- "Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:12 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Man this is strange, I must have a bad copy of the
- patch.- large amounts of planes with ease. - As far as the 190's "one bullet = one less wing" bug
- I am referring to the bug where one .50 caliber
- round from 300 meters away can tear a wing off the
- 190. This isn't me making this up, I put it in
- quotes because it has been known for a long time.


This happens to me all the time aswell. One hit one lost wing!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 07:33 AM
I'd like to update my previous post. I played the track back and this time I paused it a half second after firing, and counted exactly 36 shell casings under the wings, so exactly 6 rounds fired from each gun. Many of those appeared to have missed the target, but perhaps as many as 15 did hit. Maybe it's possible in RL for ~15 .50 cal bullets to tear off the tail of a 190? I can try to imagine the amount of damage my little car would sustain if it took the same amount of hits in under a half second. I doubt it would be driveable afterwards /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- S!
-
- After updating to 1.2 RC01 (extracted both zip
- files, RC_01.zip & RC_02.zip) flew P51 against
- FW-190A8 in QMB. I got on the 190's 6 oclock, fired
- the shortest possible burst from about 300m (i'm
- guessing, it was definately more than 200m), my
- convergence was set to 300m. The burst was approx.
- 0.20 seconds, that's TWO TENTHS of a second, and the
- rear fuselage of the 190 came completely off. I can
- send the track in if anyone wants proof.
-


S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 08:04 AM
Ok, I'm going to throw in my two cents, and I may owe someone change. I have absolutely no proof of how a .50cal round flirts with aluminum and sheet metal, but I have seen it penetrate both sides of a 2 ton safe with steel reinforcements, and throw up a ton of dirt on the other side. This is my point.....a 50 cal round is very, very powerful and probably will fly completely through any airplane, no matter what its angle or what it hits along the way. If your car was made out of the same material as these little airplanes and you shot it with 6 to 8 fifty cal guns on full auto, it would take a millisecond for your car to resemble swiss cheese. The British 303 round was powerful for its size, but the "big fifty" was a monster. It should literally shred the planes, just as it does now. If you doubt the power of a fifty, shoot a Barret .50 cal sniper rifle in semi-auto. Fire all 10 rounds as fast as you can. Now imagine doing that with 8 at the same time. That will change your mind, I promise.

I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 08:47 AM
Again to clarify, this isn't a thread about the .50.

I'm saying ALL planes fall easily to BOTH .50's and 20mm cannons. Way too easily IMHO (I'm talking about only a few rounds here). The FW-190 is now as fragile as a 109, and that isn't right. Every plane seems fragile and every plane seems to have awesome firepower, like I said, it feels very arcade like to me and seems to waste all of the detail they put into the damage models.

Also, the 190's rear fuesalage seems to break off VERY easily form any type of gun (except small caliber mg's), a few hits and the plane is ripped in half. I know the 190 still uses a simplified DM, but I think this is wrong. I do like the tail surfaces being easier to shoot off, at least that looks good and is realistic.

And I know for a fact that the 190's one hit equals severed wing is still there, it is quite obvious.

I'm going to send my report/impression of the weapon effectiveness/DM problem (IMO) to Oleg anyway. I can't help it, for me this is very noticeable and detracts alot form the game. So far my list contains:

1. Either weapons are too strong or DM of planes far too weak.

2. 190 still suffers "1 bullet = one less wing bug"

3. 190 rear fuesalge section is easily ripped in two by very few hits.

4. 190A max dive speed too low (breaks up at 860km/h).

I know there is alot about the 190 in here but there are three things I test ALOT:

-The FW-190
-Damage models
-Speeds at sea level

Anyway, just my opinion.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 11/11/0307:52AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:04 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Again to clarify, this isn't a thread about the .50.
-
-
-
- I'm saying ALL planes fall easily to BOTH .50's and
- 20mm cannons. Way too easily IMHO (I'm talking about
- only a few rounds here). The FW-190 is now as
- fragile as a 109, and that isn't right. Every plane
- seems fragile and every plane seems to have awesome
- firepower, like I said, it feels very arcade like to
- me and seems to waste all of the detail they put
- into the damage models.
-
- Also, the 190's rear fuesalage seems to break off
- VERY easily form any type of gun (except small
- caliber mg's), a few hits and the plane is ripped in
- half. I know the 190 still uses a simplified DM, but
- I think this is wrong. I do like the tail surfaces
- being easier to shoot off, at least that looks good
- and is realistic.
-
- And I know for a fact that the 190's one hit equals
- severed wing is still there, it is quite obvious.
-
- I'm going to send my report/impression of the weapon
- effectiveness/DM problem (IMO) to Oleg anyway. I
- can't help it, for me this is very noticeable and
- detracts alot form the game. So far my list
- contains:
-
- 1. Either weapons are too strong or DM of planes far
- too weak.
-
- 2. 190 still suffers "1 bullet = one less wing bug"
-
- 3. 190 rear fuesalge section is easily ripped in two
- by very few hits.
-
- 4. 190A max dive speed too low (breaks up at
- 860km/h).
-
- I know there is alot about the 190 in here but there
- are three things I test ALOT:
-
--The FW-190
--Damage models
--Speeds at sea level
-
- Anyway, just my opinion.

I do wish Oleg was willing to do a complex DM for the 190. Such an important plane, it's a pity that it's not up to FB standards, but they are very overworked and very short on time, so I doubt it will happen. Without complex DM, there may be little Oleg can do about quirky behavior like this.

But after a little testing, I think I can safely report that the P-47 followed closely by the Ki-84 now hold the title of toughest damn fighter in FB.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 09:38 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- ammo effect seems realistic to guncam footage

I agree. Damage from MG 151/20s has been underdone for quite a while now, glad its effectiveness is increased.