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BSS_Vidar
12-02-2006, 01:35 PM
Next weekend is the Hellcat vs the Zero. I'm no Hellcat fanboy, but this episode will show just how neutered the Hellcat is in this game, as well as some of the flight charaterisitcs in the Zero which are missing.

The effectiveness of the P-40 and the Wildcat vs's Ki-43's and early A6M2's was an eye-opening episode, as well as the characteristics of the P-39/400 series in this game. The Aircobra was a dog in real life due to low horse power and hight weight issues. It was restricted to 12,000 ft and below due to no supercharger and no O2 system for the pilot. German and japanese pilots licked their chops when they saw an Aircobra because it was canon foder to them.

I find it odd that the only U.S. planes with any balls were part of the Lend-Lease Act in early WWII. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif i.e, the P-39/400 series speed, climb, and agility charateristics, and the P-40 Field Mods freakishly strong machine guns.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
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slipBall
12-02-2006, 02:05 PM
I just finishing watching a re-run of Guadalcanal....I tried to read the credits at the end of the show...to see what sim if any was used....went bye way to fast to read http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WB_Outlaw
12-02-2006, 02:22 PM
I've seen the F-86 one and the Phantom one and I was not impressed. Aside from the pathetically out of context real video (in one case they showed a bomb or AGM missle in the middle of many AA missle firings), the even more pathetic combat and technical details, the graphics are just uninspiring at best.

--Outlaw.

BSS_Vidar
12-02-2006, 02:41 PM
No flight sim is being used. It's just CGI animation re-creating the events.

Agreed, sometimes producers edit the wrong file footage into the scene dispite what their technical advisors tell them just to fill space. It's unfortunate, but there it is... However, I fly Lock On which is much more detailed than IL-2 series graphics, and the CGI models in this series is superior to Lock On. If the jets in Lock On only looked that good!

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FritzGryphon
12-02-2006, 04:10 PM
I haven't seen the show, but just an ad for it.

It showed a plane turning, and it's formation turning with it. Rather than animating each plane seperately, they actually parented the rear 3 planes to the lead one (think 'welded wing').

If they are so lazy to do that, I shudder to think what the rest must look like.

BSS_Vidar
12-02-2006, 05:26 PM
I agree, they skipped a few steps with the formation stuff, but the 1v1's and the demonstration of the "Thatch Wieve" were terrific!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
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chris455
12-02-2006, 06:03 PM
German and japanese pilots licked their chops when they saw an Aircobra because it was canon foder to them.

Not Always. Below 12,000 ft, a P-39 could oftentimes outturn an Me-109 and Soviet P-39 units were highly effective against the Luftwaffe in many air battles, so much so that a number of Soviet pilots balked at receiveing newer Soviet equipment at the expense of having to give up their Kobras.
I agree that much of the modeling of US Planes ingame is contrary to the known performance of these type in a real world environment, but it is what it is.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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XyZspineZyX
12-02-2006, 08:02 PM
I hope this show gets air time on either the Military channel or History here in Canada. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Rjel
12-02-2006, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
I haven't seen the show, but just an ad for it.

It showed a plane turning, and it's formation turning with it. Rather than animating each plane seperately, they actually parented the rear 3 planes to the lead one (think 'welded wing').

If they are so lazy to do that, I shudder to think what the rest must look like.

If you're basing your opinion on a few seconds worth of commercials and not watching the show because of that, then you're missing out. I think the show has been very good. The animations of flight are as good, maybe even better, than what we have in IL2 IMO.

TimFromMA
12-03-2006, 06:41 AM
I know the original post was about the F6F v Zero, but I did not see that one yet. I did, however, see 2 other WW2 episodes as well as a Viet Nam era episode. I enjoyed them immensely and beyond that, my respect for WW2 pilots grew ten-fold. The things those guys did in the early months of the war with the materials they were given was near to miraculous.

While some episodes are better than others (as is true with any series), the show overall is worth viewing.

BH-21
12-03-2006, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
It was restricted to 12,000 ft and below due to no supercharger and no O2 system for the pilot.

This was only at Guadalcanal for the P-400 series. They used a British Oxygen system which the US didn't have in its supply chain. The P-400 was built for the British, but aquired when aircraft were needed very badly. This was also only in the early months of the campaign. The planes being refitted with US oxygen systems or only using them for strafing missions and other low altitude missions.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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triad773
12-03-2006, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Skunk241981:
I hope this show gets air time on either the Military channel or History here in Canada. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-446099415038383164&q=dogfight

for one of the videos. It's the only way I'd be seeing this series. Saw one of them before we had to get rid of our satellite dish.

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T_O_A_D
12-03-2006, 03:29 PM
Thanks triad773

I missed that episode.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tator_Totts
12-03-2006, 08:33 PM
Thanks great show.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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TAW_Oilburner
12-03-2006, 08:50 PM
That googlevideo isn't "dogfights". That was "dead mens secrets-dogfight over quadalcanal" (which I think was a better show). However, dogfights is a good show.

Xiolablu3
12-04-2006, 12:49 AM
The Google video is not hte show I was commenting on in your other thread Vidar.

This one seems much more balanced than the Pilot Episode of 'Dogfights' which I saw, which was totally from the US point of view.

That google video seems a much better show, whatever it is.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-446099415038383164&q=dogfight<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BSS_Vidar
12-04-2006, 12:55 AM
The P-400 is an exact copy of the P-39, but only with the canon added through the spinner. The P-400 was even heavier because of the added canon and just as underpowered. It was a Dog.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
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Xiolablu3
12-04-2006, 01:02 AM
If that google video is the show you were talking about Vidar, then I apologise as we were talking about 2 different shows.

That one posted is really good. I really like how they have got views from both sides.

I cant believe you dont like the 'Cats' in the game, they are amazing planes. Best forward view of any plane in the game, good guns vs fighters and very strong. Faster than the Zero and much better handling at speed.

I would take a contemporary 'Cat' over a Zero everytime. See your other thread for why.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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A_Rabid_Manatee
12-04-2006, 10:52 PM
This show could never carry my attention.

I think I just hate the way the narrator tries to be so dramatic.

And how it's more geared to people that have never played a war sim. They go into a lot of detail about very basic things.

Nimits
12-04-2006, 11:48 PM
And how it's more geared to people that have never played a war sim. They go into a lot of detail about very basic things.

Well, that is the vast majority of the tv-viewing world . . .

LEBillfish
12-05-2006, 01:30 AM
I'd most certainly not judge how a plane flew and stacked up from that show.....Seriously, I don't think the producers cared that much about plane stats to help you make a comparison...It's simply about how a selct few individual fights "won" by U.S. aces played out........<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Nimits
12-05-2006, 02:22 AM
Well, the show seems to rely on American and Allied after action reports and pilot accounts to describe the missions. Over the last 20 years or so historians have begun realizing that all sides grossly overclaimed even confirmed kills, but the fact of the matter is most English language histories of air war fare still rely on those reports (and as far as I can tell Japanese histories similarly rely on Japanese reports, with even greater exagerated claims). In fairness, while Shores, Lundstrom, and a few others have done some excellent research, alot of the WWII air war is still missing that sort of coverage. Sure, they could definately do their research better on some shows, but I do not expect them to write research a doctoral thesis on each air campaign.

The next episode of Dogfights looks to perpetuate the myth of the "Zero," with lines like "no American plane could beat it" or something like that in the promo. Even the most cursory reading of Lundstrom or Bergerud would reveal that the F4F held its own against the Zero, USN F4Fs actually achieving a slightly positive kill ratio against the A6M ("revised" figures, not wartime kill claims).

Still, its fun "lite" history (like most TV history shows). The aerial history on that show is no worse than anything you would get from a general military or aviation history book not written by Lundstrom, Shores, Parshall, et.al., and a heck of alot better than the UFO shows that seem to take up the rest of the time slots on HC.

shahram177
12-05-2006, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Nimits:
a heck of alot better than the UFO shows that seem to take up the rest of the time slots on HC.
Just for that I'm going to ask my little green friends to visit your home this evening and give you an impromptu proctological exam!
But yah great show! Amazing simply amazing visuals and a great story line. So great in fact that even my wife likes watching it.
But don't watch the show and play IL2 and expect the ally planes to be any thing but flying bricks!
The words P-51 and turning..in the IL2 world....just don't go together!
Can we say 300mph flat spin!

VF51_Flatspin
12-05-2006, 08:18 AM
I've found myself following the action thinking of what I would do next if in that situation. Happy when I guessed the proper tactic, taking "note" when I didn't. Moment-by-moment tactical breakdown of a dogfight is a rare find on television. The only thing that beats the recollections of the pilots for me are the few times I've actually gotten to speak to WWII vets willing to talk about their experiences.

The criticism for this series seems a little unfair to me, but of course you're free to watch whatever you want. It's CGI based on historical fact and personal recollection. There are known limitations. Let's not forget some of history's greatest documentaries and movies that have been forgiven certain discrepancies. What immediately comes to mind is: Victory at Sea with its constant replays of the same footage for different actions -- still one of the best PTO docs out there. How about the MiG 28 in "Top Gun", still a lot of fans for that out there.

Don't deny yourself the strengths of this series over a little eye-candy.

cmirko
12-07-2006, 12:12 AM
any chance that someone willing recorded the show ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, i watched the first episode (?) in which there were 3 fights (bud anderson, korea and vietnam), it was a good show and taught my gf a lot about dogfighting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

it would be great for someone to upload it to some torrent site, or via some other p2p system...

eagerly waiting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and thx in advance

BSS_Vidar
12-09-2006, 12:29 AM
Learned something new about the Hellcat over the Zeke in this show. The Hellcat could make a Zeke stall out in the Chandel.(Max performance climbing turn). When the Zeke stalled out, the Hellcat still had excessive power to climb and would pounce back down just like what the Zeke use to do to un-wise Wildcat pilots.

What really hit the nail on the head is the Zeke's horable perforance past 200mph in a dive. Ailerons were completly frozen, and the plane could not roll right effectively. This is missing in the Zeke's flight model - as well as the Hellcat's superior dive capabilities in-game.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
Blacksheep 1

Crash_Moses
12-09-2006, 05:33 AM
Strongly agree with Flatspin on this one. Showing the same CGI clip over and over and the repetitive narrative can be annoying but the play by play of the tactics used (good and bad) and the pilot testimony more than make up for any flaws.

Personally, I'd like to see more details and facts rather than some of the generalizations made but, hey, this show isn't targeting the hardcore history buff (or simmer for that matter).

Heck, it makes a good recruitment video. Invite some friends over. Have a Dogfight party. Maybe we'll get more converts.

Hmmm...wonder if they'll do an episode featuring the SBD...

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Tater-SW-
12-09-2006, 08:41 AM
What's interesting is how impossible it is to really understand dogfights until you've actually been in one. I'd read everythign I could get my hands on up to the point I started doing sims, and I just didn't get it completely. That's the best thing about sims, IMO, my understanding how it works made my reading so much more effective.

tater

VF51_Flatspin
12-09-2006, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
What really hit the nail on the head is the Zeke's horable perforance past 200mph in a dive. Ailerons were completly frozen, and the plane could not roll right effectively. This is missing in the Zeke's flight model - as well as the Hellcat's superior dive capabilities in-game.

LOL! I caught that too! Ain't that a kick in the pants! Maybe we can hope for this correction in 4.08m!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BillyTheKid_22
12-09-2006, 08:18 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have Military channel and 2 different history channel!!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VF2_Sarge
12-09-2006, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by VF51_Flatspin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
What really hit the nail on the head is the Zeke's horable perforance past 200mph in a dive. Ailerons were completly frozen, and the plane could not roll right effectively. This is missing in the Zeke's flight model - as well as the Hellcat's superior dive capabilities in-game.


LOL! I caught that too! Ain't that a kick in the pants! Maybe we can hope for this correction in 4.08m!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to to tell you..but according to Fritz, the info from the TV program in inaccurate and we should just learn to deal with the far superior Zero flight charateristics.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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R_Target
12-10-2006, 12:51 AM
I believe the aileron ineffectiveness on the Zero was at speeds over 250mph. I just took a quick spin in an A6M, and PF mirrors this figure pretty closely.

A high-speed roll to the right didn't seem especially more difficult than one to the left, however.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Zetler
12-10-2006, 01:04 AM
I start playing PF again watching this show, too bad all the American planes suck in this game not to mention the screwed up default load out gives all AI Hellcats rockets and bombs config even in escort and CAP missions. Which is one of the reason I never got far playing this game in the first place. The campaign is a total bore after a few missions, the Hellcat campaign being screwed up by the default load issues certainly didn't help. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

VF2_Sarge
12-10-2006, 01:48 AM
shhhh...you can't say things like that here, Zetler. You might hurt someones feelings.

Besides this particular post is about the TV program "Dogfights" that airs on the History Channel, Fridays at 10pm EST.

We know that are issues with modeling and configurement of some aircraft. Truth of the matter is, there is nothing that we can do about it at this point. All we can do is enjoy the sim that Oleg and his crew have provided as is. Some will say that the sim is has flaws because of what their data says and others will say that their data is correct and the planes are fine. Whatever, ok? I just would hate to see yet another good post and discussion go down the tubes because we got bent around the axel about the same old discussion that we already know the answers to.

But for what it matters. I agree IMO.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VF2_Sarge
12-10-2006, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
I believe the aileron ineffectiveness on the Zero was at speeds over 250mph. I just took a quick spin in an A6M, and PF mirrors this figure pretty closely.

A high-speed roll to the right didn't seem especially more difficult than one to the left, however.

Well, I don't know for sure. I do know that there is some performance loss with a Zero in a dive at high speeds. I have read in some places that the roll problems started at 200mph, 200kts, and up to 350mph. I do know that what ever the speed it is, the Zero should not be able to out run a Hellcat in a dive and that diving away from a zero and pulling up to the right was a common and sucessful tactic used by Navy and Marine Hellcat pilots. Because they knew that the Zero could not follow. Not saying that they do or do not in PF, I'm just saying.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BH-21
12-10-2006, 09:20 AM
Zetler don't bother playing any of the campaigns and dynamic stuff that comes stock with PF. They are pretty much fluff. There are many user made ones that are quite well made and you should be able to find something to suit your tastes. There is a sticky thread in the Mission Builder forum to help you find something.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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TC_Stele
12-10-2006, 11:16 AM
I talked to a pilot who flies one of the last remaining flying Zeros (an A6M5), who said that he saw considerable sluggishness with the plane from 210mph and faster, and that maneuverability just isn't the same at 160mph, which he sees is its optimal speed for its best dogfighting.

When he flies in airshows with some of the navy warbirds like the Hellcat and Corsair, he is always the first guy up and even able to come around on them when they're still getting airborne. However, after everyone has gained their speed and altitude, everyone just pulls away from him and he's the one trailing them in the airshow.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VF2_Sarge
12-10-2006, 05:50 PM
Episode: 06 - The Last Gunfighter

Skilled fighter pilots Paul Speer and Phil Wood, tackles the fierce North Vietnamese MiG over the killing skies of Vietnam. They fly the U.S. Navy's top fighter, the F8 Crusader. In one of the longest, gut-wrenching dogfights on record, Lt. Commander Richard Schaffert--out of missiles and with his guns jammed--takes on a lethal MiG-17 and the best enemy pilot he's ever faced. His only chance lies with the amazing capabilities of the F8 Crusader, "the last gunfighter." Using state of the art computer graphics, viewers will feel like they're in the battle, facing the enemy.

PREMIERE:

Friday, December 15
10:00 PM

Saturday, December 16
02:00 AM

Tuesday, December 19
11:00 PM

Wednesday, December 20
03:00 AM

All times EST<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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triad773
12-10-2006, 05:57 PM
It's a great series!



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Ccrashh
12-11-2006, 03:51 PM
I know this thread is about the History Channel's show. My apologies. I'm just responding to a topic raised here.


I just don't get it? Yes there are some issues with flight modeling of the Zero.
I just don't understand the hubbub.

F6F and F4U and P-38 and P-51 and Spitfire and P-47 and P-40C-M can still outrun and outdive any model of a Zero PERIOD. If you haven't screwed yourself to the deck any F4F and even the Buffalo can dive out and get clean away.
I hear it over and over "Don't get slow" and "Don't turn". Of course nothing will save you if your skylarking along and get jumped.
A 20mm has no friends.

So you can't fly the plane and have the EXACT advantages that the real plane had. There are still plenty of options to get out of a fight if you get in trouble. Provided you haven't run yourself out of altitude, airspeed and ideas pushing a bad situation and it becomes too late.

SOME RED drivers get upset when they can't push the stick over and immediately extend. If the blue guy has a head of steam and has better E when you push over he's going to stick there a few seconds more until you accelerate away. Those few seconds are murder.
Most Prima Donna's expect to be the guy doing the ambush. Give blue drivers some credit. They can do the same thing. Anybody can get anybody. Nobodys perfect.

As for maintaining energy? RED does have that locked up but when you zoom up in a RED bird if you get close 100 indicated your no longer flying the plane. Your along for the ride until mother gravity speeds you up. The Zero is a much lighter bird with VERY light wing loading. It may not keep the E going up but at 100 indicated it still has full control authority. At 80 it starts to get mushy but still has enough control to aim the platform. At 80 RED birds are falling out of the sky.


Latest reports of 4.07 say that the 50 cals are synched and yaw is no longer an issue. That is the best news yet for RED drivers.


What the F6F and the F4U really need is 6 degrees of sepration in TRAKir to take away the horrible blind spot to the rear.

Just a mirror in the Hellcat would be an improvement. Why is it the only "Navy" (US) fighter that you can't adjust the seat?

Ccrashh
1st Horseman

VF2_Sarge
12-11-2006, 08:23 PM
Oh man here we go again. Issues with flight charateristics are a dead subject here.

No offense m8.

And you can adjust the seat in IJA/IJN a/c..take the Val and try it out, and I believe the A6M2 not sure on that one though.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Poker_4H
12-11-2006, 08:55 PM
Can't adjust seat in a Val.
Zero - yes.

VF2_Sarge
12-11-2006, 08:57 PM
Thanks Poker..knew it was one of them.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ccrashh
12-11-2006, 09:09 PM
SARGE,

I'll assume you really EARNED those stripes you wear in your avitar.

However.. I asked about the Seat Adjustment in US NAVY fighters .. I never mentioned a Dive bomber. Or a VAL...

Nuff said about your last post.

Ccrashh
1st Horseman

Poker_4H
12-11-2006, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by VF2_Sarge:
Thanks Poker..knew it was one of them.

Well, I assume you have tested the zero in game against the Hellcat ............ riiiiiight ?
Figured with such familiarity you'd know that the zero seat raised....... after all, it's only after testing both aircraft in comparative tests would one post about such disparities in the game ........... riiiiiight ????
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mynameisroland
12-12-2006, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If that google video is the show you were talking about Vidar, then I apologise as we were talking about 2 different shows.

That one posted is really good. I really like how they have got views from both sides.

I cant believe you dont like the 'Cats' in the game, they are amazing planes. Best forward view of any plane in the game, good guns vs fighters and very strong. Faster than the Zero and much better handling at speed.

I would take a contemporary 'Cat' over a Zero everytime. See your other thread for why.


WTF!!! MY HELLCAT KEEPS GETTING PWONZORRED BY THESE GODAMN ZEROS IN A TURN FIGHT !!!!

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MrMojok
12-12-2006, 08:43 AM
F6F and F4U and P-38 and P-51 and Spitfire and P-47 and P-40C-M can still outrun and outdive any model of a Zero PERIOD.


Unless that zero is flown by an AI pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VF2_Sarge
12-12-2006, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Ccrashh:
SARGE,

I'll assume you really EARNED those stripes you wear in your avitar.

However.. I asked about the Seat Adjustment in US NAVY fighters .. I never mentioned a Dive bomber. Or a VAL...

Nuff said about your last post.

Ccrashh
1st Horseman

Ccrash...check your pm sir.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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shahram177
12-13-2006, 11:04 AM
F6F and F4U and P-38 and P-51 and Spitfire and P-47 and P-40C-M can still outrun and outdive any model of a Zero PERIOD.
....
Really! I because I can't seem to shake the dam things when I'm in a P-51.
I've gone so far as to use landing flaps threw turns before starting a dive to get away!

Poker_4H
12-14-2006, 12:26 AM
How far are you diving ?, and why are you killing your e-state by hard turns when fighting a zero in a P-51 ???
Zero can out turn and initially - I said initially out accelerate most planes, especially the corsairs and wildcats .. but after a few seconds the zero will fall back, and definitely once you pass their max dive speed.
A simple drop of 1000m and then start to climb though - you'll be dead quick.
most people don't hold their disengagement long enough, and once they turn or climb .. they are back into the realm of the zero.
P-51 vs zero - B&Z - NEVER turn.
I fly a zero a bit, and what I usually try to do is take a shallower dive than the enemy fighter - because I know they are likely to get impatient and climb back up too soon ... then I've cut the curve, have more E, and if I could shoot better, they'd be dead.
Join on Zekes and try it out ... fly the Allied planes they way they should be flown and you shouldn't have any problems being successful.
Believe me .. I die regularely on there so I know there's plenty of red pilots who can show you how to beat the zero.
S!

slappedsilly
12-14-2006, 10:27 AM
Like I've said before, in RL the U.S. have and has had the best planes, let someone else have a turn in the sim. It's only a game, who cares. Heck, fly the La-5, or 7 if you want a plane that can really fly!

R_Target
12-14-2006, 01:33 PM
You can outdive the AI Zeros. It's just going to cost you a lot of alt. Sometimes you can force them to crash too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's best to not get bounced at all. Keep your height and speed and you can take them out at will.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VF2_Sarge
12-16-2006, 12:01 AM
Tonights show

Dogfights : 06 - The Last Gunfighter

The F-8 Crusader in it?s battles over Hanoi and the tactics that the US Navy pilots used in order to defeat the North Vietnamese pilots in the their MIG-17?s and MIG-21?s. The last and best part of the show IMO was when ace pilot Lt. Commander Richard Schaffert takes on 4 MIG-17s for a period of ten minutes and only after running out of missiles and has his guns jammed after one short burst, was able to escape back to friendly lines. They say that Lt. Commander Richard Schaffert?s dogfight was a demonstration of text book flying for the F-8 and those lessons are still taught today at the US Navy Top Gun School.

Next Week:

Dogfights : 09 - Hell Over Hanoi

Airs on Friday December 22 08:00 PM

You're in the cockpit with some of the fiercest dog fighting ever seen in Vietnam! These pilots fight in a supersonic world, and split second decisions determine life or death. American F4 Phantom pilots Fred Olmsted and Dan Cherry take on the famed MiG-21--the most feared threat in the sky. Steve Ritchie, becomes a dog fighting legend as an Air Force Ace. First-hand accounts, rare archival footage and original shooting will supplement the remarkable computer graphics.

Dogfights : 03 - MiG Alley

Airs on Friday December 22 10:00 PM

Viewers will feel like they're in the battle, facing the enemy, while watching this new series that recreates famous battles using state of the art computer graphics. US Air Force fighter pilots risk their lives flying sleek F-86 Sabres above "MiG Alley", the most dangerous piece of sky in the Korean War. The high-speed twists and turns of history's first jet dogfights pit American aces Robbie Risner and Ralph Parr in the battles of their lives against nimble Russian-built MiG-15 fighters. First-hand accounts, rare archival footage and original shooting will supplement the remarkable computer graphics.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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darkhorizon11
12-16-2006, 01:31 AM
See it sucks with all these CG technology and what not coming so late... unfortnately a lot of these heroes from all air forces are dead and their first hand combat accounts are lost forever...

I mean imagine if they made one of these about Erich Hartmann, Adolf Galland, Joachim Marsielles, or Thomas McGuire? Although yes I know, Marseilles and McGuire were killed during the war, but still!

-HH-Quazi
12-16-2006, 03:46 AM
I missed the regular showing but the late night showing was about Brig. Gen. Robin Olds exploits in WWII in a P-38 against a 109 then moved into the Vietnam era with F-4's against MiG-21's. Then the next show was with the AVG & the Flying Tigers. Awesome, awesome series. If these are computer animation, why can't we get that kind of detail, HEHE<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BSS_CUDA
12-17-2006, 07:51 AM
Robin Olds is a Lying B@stard. he absolutely said that he could out turn a 109. and we know that's not true because it would be modeled in this sim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif still all in all its a very interesting series. the vector roll is a tough one to get used to doing. rolling away from your opponent to achieve a better solution http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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That was some of the best flying I've seen yet! right up to the part where you got killed.
you NEVER NEVER leave your wingman.

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brimigus
12-17-2006, 12:19 PM
I've been watching it too and been scratching my head.Robin Olds said he had no doubt his p38 was more agile at low altitude and could out turn a 109 no problem.I allways get totaly out turned and end up pancaked.Another in the AVG episode I think it was Tex Hill that got right on the tail of the 3 betty bombers and just sat there taking fire That to allways results in a firey death for me.Oh I allmost forgot how may times online do head on passes work and in the crusader episode who misses twice at and 8oc slash attack in a four on one battle.Either the games totaly porked or were just real good because all we do is engage.and since we dog fight more than real pilots ever did and with no fatigue,jangled nerves and change of getting killed we fly totaly differnt than they did.Robin Olds Attacked 50 plus EA with only his wingman on a sortie and got 3 and got away.I would like to see that pulled off on the Warcloud.

Nimits
12-17-2006, 01:40 PM
Turning off lables and padlock can do wonders for your survivability . . .

RamsteinUSA
12-17-2006, 02:45 PM
Now you guys are catching on, why us USA Pilots feel maligned.. even the real pilots that we actually know that flew those planes tell us what you have been watching on the history channel. Now you can see why we are miffed! and saddened by bogus modelling...

Ok, so they got it 90% right, but the 10% that's wrong ...really screwed the pooch..

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif



Originally posted by brimigus:
I've been watching it too and been scratching my head.Robin Olds said he had no doubt his p38 was more agile at low altitude and could out turn a 109 no problem.I allways get totaly out turned and end up pancaked.Another in the AVG episode I think it was Tex Hill that got right on the tail of the 3 betty bombers and just sat there taking fire That to allways results in a firey death for me.Oh I allmost forgot how may times online do head on passes work and in the crusader episode who misses twice at and 8oc slash attack in a four on one battle.Either the games totaly porked or were just real good because all we do is engage.and since we dog fight more than real pilots ever did and with no fatigue,jangled nerves and change of getting killed we fly totaly differnt than they did.Robin Olds Attacked 50 plus EA with only his wingman on a sortie and got 3 and got away.I would like to see that pulled off on the Warcloud.

WWMaxGunz
12-18-2006, 02:44 AM
If Robin Olds outturned every 109 he met then does that mean that no 109 could outturn him?
Please think a while. Planes do not fly themselves.
Does it mean that every gamer should be able to fly a model P-38 as well as he did is a sim
with much realism by sim standards as they are?

P-39 is a dog it says. Were all P-39's the same or even close in performance?
P-39D was sent to Russia. What followed was major changes in mass and internal structure.
What Russia accepted was P-39N series, much different from D model.

Do I expect the blanket-dweeb-journalists playing at being historians at the Propaganda
Channel note the difference? Not at all or they would have mentioned it. They just grab
quotes and homogenize them into pap for the average mental age of the TV audience, your
basic 12 year old in an average 30 year old body tired from work and wanting to coast along.

Look at the choices they gave for "the greatest dogfights in history" and devalue accordingly,
boys. Not to knock what those men really did but the presentations given are slanted with
few exceptions by the lack of much pertinent information.

VF51_Flatspin
12-18-2006, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by brimigus:
Another in the AVG episode I think it was Tex Hill that got right on the tail of the 3 betty bombers and just sat there taking fire That to allways results in a firey death for me.

Those were Ki-21 "Sally" bombers - not the Betty. Might make a significant difference! It was also dark so they were probably having a fairly hard time seeing him - so not hitting with all rounds (even though a lot did hit him). We'll find out very soon though just how much 'sniper' training the Sally gunners got in the sim.

Here's a little info on the Sally:

This twin-engined bomber was first flown in 1936 and was refined after combat experience in China. The Ki.21 looked clean and impressive, but was inherently obsolete. It was retired in 1943, despite the development of the Ki.21-II with far more powerful engines. 2064 built.

Type: Ki.21-IIb
Function: bomber
Year: 1941 Crew: 5-7 Engines: 2 * 1500hp Mitsubishi Ha-101
Wing Span: 22.50m Length: 16.00m Height: 4.85m Wing Area: 69.60m2
Empty Weight: 6070kg Max.Weight: 10610kg
Speed: 486km/h Ceiling: 10000m Range: 2700km
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darkhorizon11
12-19-2006, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
If Robin Olds outturned every 109 he met then does that mean that no 109 could outturn him?
Please think a while. Planes do not fly themselves.
Does it mean that every gamer should be able to fly a model P-38 as well as he did is a sim
with much realism by sim standards as they are?

P-39 is a dog it says. Were all P-39's the same or even close in performance?
P-39D was sent to Russia. What followed was major changes in mass and internal structure.
What Russia accepted was P-39N series, much different from D model.

Do I expect the blanket-dweeb-journalists playing at being historians at the Propaganda
Channel note the difference? Not at all or they would have mentioned it. They just grab
quotes and homogenize them into pap for the average mental age of the TV audience, your
basic 12 year old in an average 30 year old body tired from work and wanting to coast along.

Look at the choices they gave for "the greatest dogfights in history" and devalue accordingly,
boys. Not to knock what those men really did but the presentations given are slanted with
few exceptions by the lack of much pertinent information.

I agree, unfortunately its all about ratings. I wish it wasn't so biased as well...

Its still fun to watch though, probably my biggest complaint though is like you said, its too basic. Half the show is spent explaining why the pilot made the moves he did and his options vs. what actually happened...

TheBandit_76
12-19-2006, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Ccrashh:
I know this thread is about the History Channel's show. My apologies. I'm just responding to a topic raised here.


What the F6F and the F4U really need is 6 degrees of sepration in TRAKir to take away the horrible blind spot to the rear.

Just a mirror in the Hellcat would be an improvement. Why is it the only "Navy" (US) fighter that you can't adjust the seat?

Ccrashh
1st Horseman

Not too bad a post, you're pretty spot on. One thing, it's called 6DOF, or "Six Degrees of Freedom." You know, freedom to look around, free-like.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Having said that, the main 2 goofy things I see Zeros doing is:

1) Diving and rolling with USN birds at high speeds (should be able to do to Zeros what smart 190 players do to me when I'm in pursuit with the P38)

2) SEEMINGLY excessive zoom energy or energy retention after a blindingly tight turn. For examply, I can trick a Zero person into diving straight down on my while I am zooming at at him head on, but then I see the zero perform a 180 at full diving speed, SEEMINGLY not black out, maintain E and still have enough zoom to come up after me and hang from the prop, taking shots. I think this is from the age-old issue in olegs game that has always been a problem. You can pass another a/c head-on at huge closure rates, and still ac1 can perform a 180 and be in hot pursuit of ac2 in no time flat. That has always seemed off in this game.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BillyTheKid_22
12-19-2006, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ccrashh:
I know this thread is about the History Channel's show. My apologies. I'm just responding to a topic raised here.


What the F6F and the F4U really need is 6 degrees of sepration in TRAKir to take away the horrible blind spot to the rear.

Just a mirror in the Hellcat would be an improvement. Why is it the only "Navy" (US) fighter that you can't adjust the seat?

Ccrashh
1st Horseman

Not too bad a post, you're pretty spot on. One thing, it's called 6DOF, or "Six Degrees of Freedom." You know, freedom to look around, free-like.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Having said that, the main 2 goofy things I see Zeros doing is:

1) Diving and rolling with USN birds at high speeds (should be able to do to Zeros what smart 190 players do to me when I'm in pursuit with the P38)

2) SEEMINGLY excessive zoom energy or energy retention after a blindingly tight turn. For examply, I can trick a Zero person into diving straight down on my while I am zooming at at him head on, but then I see the zero perform a 180 at full diving speed, SEEMINGLY not black out, maintain E and still have enough zoom to come up after me and hang from the prop, taking shots. I think this is from the age-old issue in olegs game that has always been a problem. You can pass another a/c head-on at huge closure rates, and still ac1 can perform a 180 and be in hot pursuit of ac2 in no time flat. That has always seemed off in this game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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