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View Full Version : Want harder Ace AI when you fly IL2?



Jumoschwanz
03-02-2010, 05:01 PM
Then grab an old disk and try the original IL2, or Forgotten Battles 1.x, the AI in them is much harder to shoot down than in IL246 or in the latest "unofficial" versions.

I have four versions of IL2 on my hard drive, and last night I tried the same mission in QMB with all four of them. I flew the original IL2 patched to 1.2, the original Forgotten Battles patched to 1.21, IL246 4.09m, and also the latest mod pack as used on Spits_vs_109s.

I set a 109g2 with default ammo vs. four Ace Yak1b on the Smolensk map at 1000 meters altitude. I tried the mod pack first and sliced through all four opponents without getting a scratch, same for the official 4.09m.

Then I loaded up the original IL2 patched to 1.2, which was the last patch before Forgotten Battles was released. I actually think the AI in this was the best. The Yaks would break off and save themselves from head-on shots. Also I felt it was the most realistic, as there was a noticeable difference in the flight models and energy potential of my aircraft and the Yaks which I could exploit that was not an AI glitch.

I emptied all my ammo at the Yak1bs in the original IL2 and only got one smoking enough to bring it right down, the others went home with fuel leaks and some holes in them.

Forgotten Battles 1.21 AI was the toughest. Out of four tries in a row the four Yaks shot me down before I got them all every time!

Now, this was not all 100% the AI ability, but a lot of it was. The bf109 in IL21.2, and FB1.21 was much harder to fly than it is in current versions of this flight sim.

In the original IL2 I actually got the bf109 in a few bad spins which were not easy to recover from! In both the old versions the bf109 turns much worse than in current versions. I remember this from flying Forgotten Battles when it was current also, then the bf109 would not out-turn hardly any other aircraft in the sim, it's turning ability was more in line with the way the FW190 is currently.

The early AI I went up against seemed smart and tough. The wingmen were more apt to break away and act independently, they stuck on my tail much more tenaciously, and used zooming and booming on me as much as slower turning tactics.

Lastly, the Yak1b in the early IL2 versions would take many more hits to bring down than in current versions. It took several 20mm hits to get them down or to go home. In 4.09m they are definitely easier targets, and in the mod-pac the Yaks could be brought down using only machine guns, they were very, very fragile.

I remember several years ago I did an experiment online with Aviar on his old dogfight server. He let me pull in behind his La-5fn with my early Stuka and empty my machine guns out on him, they had no effect at all, it was like throwing tennis balls at him.

I can not say which version of the sim offers the most realistic experience, as I am not a real WWII combat pilot, all I can do is compare them to each other first hand as I have all my old disks and patches saved since 2001 to play with.

I know I enjoyed fighting the FB AI much more, as it was much more of a challenge.

When a single fighter can slice through four or more Ace AI opponents in the 4.09m QMB flying hard settings like I can easily, it gets pretty boring. Flying the original IL2 and the tough AI in FB, and wrestling with the tougher flight models was a real kick.

I imagine by now 90% of the online community flying on HL probably never flew these old versions we did online, and I believe if they were made to they would cry bloody murder.

After flying these again, it is very easy to see why in the first three or four years flying this sim online, it was very common to see much larger numbers of Red pilots on a server than blue, only the dedicated wanted to fly the bf109 that could not turn.......

The old-school IL2 pilots that were used to flying these old versions almost have to have a training edge that newer IL2 pilots may be missing out on.

Now if you will excuse me, I owe four FB 1.21 Yaks a severe beating....

Aviar
03-02-2010, 05:18 PM
So many changes made to the AI over the years. I really can't remember what some of them used to be like. Good for you, still playing the old versions.

I know the current AI loves to B&Z, something the AI didn't do much of several years ago....or am I mistaken about that?

Aviar

Jumoschwanz
03-02-2010, 05:31 PM
Well, I did beat the old FB AI, but I had to Z&B them to do it. Thing was, you COULD Z&B them without them ending up at your level of E in their slower aircraft.

The original IL2 AI will use Energy tactics. They will fly about four kilos away from you, then turn and fly straight at you for a high speed pass, the FB AI lost this trait.

Anyway, you certainly can not use the same tactics on the older AI, and it seems to me their attacks are more like what a human opponent might put up. This is because the FB AI will stick to your but like glue and really dog you, and the Original IL2 AI will switch back and forth between decent Energy and turn fighting to try and do you in.

The current AI will Z&B you if they have a faster aircraft than you, and they will T&B with you if you have the faster aircraft. But the original IL2 AI will do both with the slower aircraft, it is really neat.

No question though it is much more of a challenge to shoot those old IL2/FB yaks down than it is in ANY current incarnation of IL2 for many reasons, they act differently, your bf109 turns worse than they do, and it takes a really good hit, or a LOT of poorer hits to bring them down.

I DO think they take too many hits to bring down, I put a dozen 20mm shells into one before it quit flying because it lost a wing.

You could bring down a half-dozen fighters in the latest mod pack with the ammo it takes to bring down one Yak in the original IL2.

mortoma
03-02-2010, 05:39 PM
I think some of that might be from the tougher damage model we used to have. You mention killing only one Yak in the original while the rest flew away with leaks and holes. I remember it being harder to damage planes back in the early days. And there was a combined effect due to the guns being a touch less effective on top of that!!

I'm not that nostalgic about the old IL2 like some people are. I think the flight models ( especially certain aircraft ) was very poor. I remember the P-39 being tough to get airborne after takeoff, as if you only were taking off with half throttle or something. It was a joke because I played a campaign in the P-39 and there was a modest hill off the end of the runaway and sometimes I could not get over it. I could have gotten a real life Cessna 172 over the same type of hill easily with a lot of margin too. Something was wrong back then. The FW-190 felt like it weighed very little and the slightest attempt to turn had you flopping all over the place at a near stall. Could not manuever in the thing at all!

Jumoschwanz
03-02-2010, 05:48 PM
Every aircraft back then was more unique. There was one squad I remember who flew FW190s online for a while. When you got on their tail, they would go vertical and fall straight back at you in a controlled stall and end up with their guns pointing right at you.

I don't think most of us learned how to fly the aircraft back then, because the patches and new versions of the sim just FLEW at us very quickly with their changes in FMs.

We were slow to adopt historical tactics with the fighters, like Erich Hartmann's for instance, we were more apt to try slow T&B fighting than energy fighting, but we were having fun with a new toy then and had to try it all.

I would not completely trade the Official 4.09m for any other version, older or non-official, I think it has the best overall and smartest balance of everything.

PF_Coastie
03-02-2010, 06:31 PM
Also, the Luft whiners got their way on several radical changes over the years. Better damage models, way over the top MG151 damage upgrade and improved flight performance for the 109's. To ME, the MG151 damage upgrade was the single biggest game changer for this sim and was way overkill.

That said, some of the Russian birds were way over modeled on their damage/flight models.

mortoma
03-02-2010, 06:46 PM
Jumo, do me a favor and try to take off in the P-39 ( original IL-2 ) and tell me what the initial climb after takeoff is like. I remember writing Oleg about the weak P-39 initial climb and he ended up changing it. I think he agreed with me on that one once I challenged him to try it himself. I also got Oleg to fix the terrible taxi of the first Me-262 when FB came out. He wrote me back that time. It was almost impossible to taxi that bird at first.

ROXunreal
03-02-2010, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
Also, the Luft whiners got their way on several radical changes over the years. Better damage models, way over the top MG151 damage upgrade and improved flight performance for the 109's. To ME, the MG151 damage upgrade was the single biggest game changer for this sim and was way overkill.


sigh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sillius_Sodus
03-02-2010, 08:36 PM
I also remember the P-39's doing bat turns and it was very hard going up against them even is an F4 or G2.

I do miss the raindrops on the windscreen though.

Aviar
03-02-2010, 09:10 PM
I do miss the raindrops on the windscreen though.

Yea, that was when the Mossie windshield wiper actually worked in the rain.

Aviar

Stiletto-
03-02-2010, 09:15 PM
Mortoma I remember how much speed you had to get in the P-39 to take off, I believe the MiG-3 was the same way, you had to let it roll down the runway and just ease back on the stick before the end or it wouldn't get enough lift to sustain flight.

Jumoschwanz
03-02-2010, 09:20 PM
I did get into a P-39N-1, and yes it was sluggish, but a lot of the aircraft are really sluggish compared to how they fly now, there are a lot of odd traits in them that are good for a laugh now, especially how easy they stall and spin compared to now.
The aircraft in IL2 now are a cinch to fly compared to how they were early on in this sim's history.

My original IL2 installation is patched to 1.2, the last patch it had, so it may be different than a pure old IL2 install, or one of the Demo versions.

Coastie, I am sure that the axis 20mm cannons in this sim were never any better than the Hispanos or Russian 20mm. I always thought the Russian 20mm cannons were the hardest hitting of all. I guess it is all what you are used to getting hit with!
For sure the four 20mm Hispanos on the Hurri and Tempest and F4UC are just as powerful as any 20s carried by any aircraft in the sim.

Also, the single biggest game changer I think was making the bf109 a better turning aircraft at low speeds.

That single change made the 109G2 the standard 1 vs. 1 dueling aircraft, and made it so many, many virtual pilots migrated from flying allied aircraft to axis.

If the bf109 was never made to turn better than it does in FB 1.21, there would still be more people flying allied than axis aircraft online, and right now and for the last few years it has actually been reversed, often the axis, or blue team has all the players it needs and the allied or Red side of a server is hurting for pilots!

Anyway, back on topic, it is definitely good for some kicks to try out the older versions of the sim and see how different they are to fly.

Erkki_M
03-02-2010, 11:02 PM
I remember in the original game, one guy, I think it was Wallu, sent Oleg an email and asked him to give 109 pilots a Luger to shoot themselves with once they ran into LaGG-3s or La-5s. Oleg replied something like "Luger round had bad penetration, I will give you parabellums"! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

One of the Bf109 fixes came in the next patch.

M_Gunz
03-03-2010, 04:56 AM
151/20 ammo mix did not get put right until late in the series. Best not to compare German 20mm until then.

italianofalco
03-03-2010, 07:56 AM
AI of 3.04 FB version was the best. S!

Jumoschwanz
03-03-2010, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
I remember in the original game, one guy, I think it was Wallu, sent Oleg an email and asked him to give 109 pilots a Luger to shoot themselves with once they ran into LaGG-3s or La-5s. Oleg replied something like "Luger round had bad penetration, I will give you parabellums"! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

One of the Bf109 fixes came in the next patch.

Yes in the Forgotten Battles 1.x, flying the bf109 and FW190 was a real challenge vs. VVS aircraft. If you fly those axis aircraft, then the AI(or online) is very tough to beat in this version of the flight sim. If you switch sides, and fly a Yak1b vs. a bf109, it gets a lot easier for you. The original IL2 things were more evenly matched, I don't know why the axis aircraft lost their turning ability in early Forgotten Battles, but it is history now.

It did teach those faithful to flying axis aircraft to do something besides turn though. You had to develop hit and run techniques, team tactics or rely on energy fighting to get the job done.

The bf109F model was a lot better than the 109G in early FB, it could almost hold it's own vs. the Yaks and Laggs, but not many flew it back then because they had the mindset that newer was better.

I remember going around and around in circles on the deck with a Lagg on one dogfight server, I was the only one flying the 109F that day, and I surprised the Lagg pilot when I could turn with him and shoot him down because he did not have a problem with all the other 109s on the server, which were "G" models.

One of my favorite memories is when JV44 Rall was in his FW190A, zooming and booming GR142Pipper and GR142Astro who were down on the deck beating up all the axis aircraft, covering each other with their Yak fighters.

One of them got really mad about it and started preaching to Rall about how he would come down and dogfight with them if he was a real man!

Rall was a pioneer 190A Z&Ber in IL2 online, and I am sure he is still at it....

Hawgdog
03-03-2010, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
FW190s When you got on their tail, they would go vertical and fall straight back at you in a controlled stall and end up with their guns pointing right at you.



hehe, worked every time!

DKoor
03-03-2010, 11:54 PM
Lol...

Thing is... Jumo is right.

After all these years I loaded up the old FB Ai and it was tough as hell. And all things considered, most realistic too.

Two things.
Ai follows you in turn, and no more BS rocket boost climbs.
Meaning in a way they are more "humanish".

MG151 are ridiculous tho, so that may be a deal breaker for some.

Avivion
03-04-2010, 01:19 AM
Anyone tried IL2 FB Ace Expansion Pack (Ver 2.04)? The AI in that seems to fight rather impressively, sure beats the current versions.

Treetop64
03-04-2010, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Aviar:
So many changes made to the AI over the years. I really can't remember what some of them used to be like. Good for you, still playing the old versions.

I know the current AI loves to B&Z, something the AI didn't do much of several years ago....or am I mistaken about that?

Aviar

As good as they were in their day, playing the old IL-2s makes one appreciate just how good the current version is now. I still play the original, unpatched IL-2 from time to time.

And yes, the AI likes B&Z when appropriate. I remember in older versions of the game when AI flying P-38s and P-47s would try to T&B with the best of them, and would fail every time! It was hilarious and frustrating at the same time.


Originally posted by Avivion:
Anyone tried IL2 FB Ace Expansion Pack (Ver 2.04)? The AI in that seems to fight rather impressively, sure beats the current versions.

Agree 100%. Still have FB Ace Pack, too, but not installed. Dadaelus (sp?) is apparently working on the AI for v4.10 (thank God...). So far they got it working so that the AI aircraft and ground gunners can't see you if you're in the clouds, or if a cloud is between you and them. However, I sure hope they perform a proper overhaul on AI evasive tactics, especially at veteran and ace levels. Rookie and Novice are fine as they are. Veteran and ace antics, though defeatable, are ludicrous... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif