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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 08:34 PM
I pretty new pilot & have been practicing alot using the quick mission builder and applying stuff from Shaw. I can beat both "rookie" and "average" consistantly in 1 vs 1 using same-ac (using Lafn5 i think).

Couple questions/observations:


Gunnery -- From my exp, it seems like gunnery is the most important skill in fighting. Practicing alot of TnB, I learned to get on the enemyies' tail (AI) pretty well, but it would still take me 10 minutes and all my ammo to shoot the bastage down! I could never even dream of doing rope-a-dope with that lack of gunnery skill, correct? Even BnZ is tough for me. How good is everyone else at gunnery? Now I'm playing mostly against "rookie" AI pilots so I can get lots of gun practice in--it is definitely helping ALOT.


E -- vs same-ac "rookie" AI, I do a lead turn on initial HO-pass and immediately get on his 6...however...I always end up having waayyy too much closure so I end up having to climb pretty steep behind him as he turns (like a high yo-yo?), cut throttle, and sometimes even drop flaps so that I don't overshoot. It works out so I'm on his 6, but I was wondering what a better pilot would do. With E being so important and all, I assume this type of E-bleeding tactic is a no-no, so what would I do instead? Just stick with the climb and return to BnZ? What's funny is that I just finished a high-G lead turn to get on his tail and I'm still way higher on E.


Dueling -- Are there any popular 1 vs 1 dueling sites/ladders around?

thanks for any help.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 08:34 PM
I pretty new pilot & have been practicing alot using the quick mission builder and applying stuff from Shaw. I can beat both "rookie" and "average" consistantly in 1 vs 1 using same-ac (using Lafn5 i think).

Couple questions/observations:


Gunnery -- From my exp, it seems like gunnery is the most important skill in fighting. Practicing alot of TnB, I learned to get on the enemyies' tail (AI) pretty well, but it would still take me 10 minutes and all my ammo to shoot the bastage down! I could never even dream of doing rope-a-dope with that lack of gunnery skill, correct? Even BnZ is tough for me. How good is everyone else at gunnery? Now I'm playing mostly against "rookie" AI pilots so I can get lots of gun practice in--it is definitely helping ALOT.


E -- vs same-ac "rookie" AI, I do a lead turn on initial HO-pass and immediately get on his 6...however...I always end up having waayyy too much closure so I end up having to climb pretty steep behind him as he turns (like a high yo-yo?), cut throttle, and sometimes even drop flaps so that I don't overshoot. It works out so I'm on his 6, but I was wondering what a better pilot would do. With E being so important and all, I assume this type of E-bleeding tactic is a no-no, so what would I do instead? Just stick with the climb and return to BnZ? What's funny is that I just finished a high-G lead turn to get on his tail and I'm still way higher on E.


Dueling -- Are there any popular 1 vs 1 dueling sites/ladders around?

thanks for any help.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 08:58 PM
If you get close before you shoot. The two 20mm guns on the La5FN should take out another La5FN in one short burst.

If your practicing turn fighting. I wouldn't worry about E retention on a La5Fn 1vs1. He can't do anything you can't do.

If your going to overshoot him. Pull throttle all the way back, drop two stages of flaps, and pull up. When your speed is down, push back down on him.

If your not good at slow sissors. Break away, get altitude, and dive back down on him.

Conserve your ammo. the AI will waste his, and then he's easy meat for you.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:04 PM
Azzii wrote:
- I pretty new pilot & have been practicing alot using
- the quick mission builder and applying stuff from
- Shaw. I can beat both "rookie" and "average"
- consistantly in 1 vs 1 using same-ac (using Lafn5 i
- think).


First of all AI will never be a good substitude of human opponent.


- Gunnery -- From my exp, it seems like gunnery is the
- most important skill in fighting. Practicing alot
- of TnB, I learned to get on the enemyies' tail (AI)
- pretty well, but it would still take me 10 minutes
- and all my ammo to shoot the bastage down! I could
- never even dream of doing rope-a-dope with that lack
- of gunnery skill, correct? Even BnZ is tough for
- me. How good is everyone else at gunnery? Now I'm
- playing mostly against "rookie" AI pilots so I can
- get lots of gun practice in--it is definitely
- helping ALOT.


Gunnery depends on some factors:convergence,firing distance and deflection shooting.

Basically all you have to do is practice.I fly <u>online</u> from May 2002(LW only).80% of my kills are scored by surprise.That gives some thinking.


Never give away energy.If you foresee an overshoot,just go up(trading E for alt).




"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:26 PM
I'd have to agree that giving up too much E is not a good thing. It's just too easy then for someone (AI or human) to bounce you at the worst time.

As far as gunnery goes, it takes practice. You'll learn how to inflict alot of damage with short bursts once you really get your rounds on target. You can do more damage in the 5 or 7 o'clock areas than directly at the bandit's 6. Deflection shooting takes a lot of learnin'. Some get it. Others prefer to get in really close so there's no guessing. The latter is probaly the best bet. But remember if your closing speed is really fast then you've got to give yourself time enough to pull off target. Otherwise it results in an unintentional taran. Which is really embarassing if you're flying LW! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:35 PM
LilHorse wrote:
- But remember if your closing speed is really fast then
- you've got to give yourself time enough to pull off
- target. Otherwise it results in an unintentional
- taran. Which is really embarassing if you're flying
- LW!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


You wanna start somethin` ,eh?!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:50 PM
HA! Believe me, Carguy. I've probably done it way more than you! I find it more effective for scoring kills than using the MK-108 as presently modeled. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:55 PM
He wanted to turn fight La on La. That's the advice I gave him. No harm in giving up E in that situation. Just get on his six,and he can't get away.

If he wanted to fight a 109 against the La. I would have given him a compleletly different advice.

Da Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 12:35 AM
I also am a hopeless shot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .. the following helps



GUNNERY PRACTICE

1) Load Quick Mission Builder
2) select a target initially something tame like an early I16
3) set speed to quarter speed and shhot trying to hit specific spots like wing root or radiator
4) record track
5) play track back from the targets perspective to see what is going wrong
6) repeat until you are perfect then increase to half speed then full then try double


Here is a copy of the RAF 1943 gunnery manual

http://www.msnusers.com/WTEGalway/Documents/raf%5Fgunnery.pdf

its on a MSN group I set up so i am not sure, you may need to login to download it.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 12:46 AM
Playing... or flying against the ai at any level is neither particularly difficult and once you master it will soon become boring.

If you want to use the acm's you've learned from Shaw's book the only place you'll actually use them correctly is vs multiple human opponents.

Playing a one vs one duel does not in my opinion reflect the skills that are required to play well - the addition of multiple friends and enemy a/c allow you to create an environment that will let you kill the enemy with the least risk to yourself by ensuring you have the maximum advantage in either type of a/c, numbers, position or altitude.

If you want to re-enact what is was like for those pilots 60 years ago and if we are honest that is why we play these games go online, multiplayer.

FB's multiplayer allows a reasonably realistic 16 plane arena - there are other game out there that have 500 planes in one arena - don't limit yourself to one product - try them all - all have strengths and weaknesses - howevever the skills learnt in one allow an easy transition to another.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 01:23 AM
Don't worry too much.

Actually, human pilots are easier to shoot down than the AI. Just look at the way AI manages those negative G maneuvers, super low-speed overshoots. Sometimes it feels like they have speed breaks installed, too - fly to catch up and then they suddenly slow down at an unbelieveable rate.

In short, in tactical management AI is super dumb, but in certain ACM skills, they excell. Perfect moves, no mistakes, superb gunnery.

Usually the real challenge when fighting human players is the tactical management part. When you can corner them low and slow, most usually they come down easier than AIs, or they make mistakes and stall out.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:55 PM
Thanks for all the replies.


WTE_Galway-- Thanks for the idea of playing 1/4 speed...didn't know you could do that. Not sure why I'd replay it from that target's perspective tho. I've actually read most of that '43 Britsh RAF book that deals with gunnery. Most of what I practice now relates to that. Sweet book.


What I don't like about the group vs group thing is that, as one guy mentioned, 80% of his kills were from "suprise" [and luck]. Sneaking up on some poor unknowing bastage and blasting him out of the sky is not my idea of fun.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 07:07 PM
Online with limited icons (no enemy icons, friendlly icons at shorter ranges) I score most kills by surprise as well. I see a dot in the distance, and stalk it for a while until I pretty sure it's a bandit, then I close in /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

I have yet to really fly in an organized team (used to do that when i played Warbirds) though pilots working together can really be effective. Hell I got suckered last week. I chased a 190 into the middle of nowwhere, and apparently he vectored a friend into the fight, classic drag and bag, I didn't see his buddy until it was too late. Luckily I was in a p47 so he didn't kill me outright, but he damaged my flaps, gear, and throttle controls, and shot up my oil pan. I ended up trying to land at 200MPH with no gear...I failed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 07:12 PM
About the shooting unsuspecting victim in the back, you will learn to love it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif !!

From the moment you spot him (that might not always be from his rear quarters) - moving your self into position without him seeing you. The closure - getting closer - closer - don't pull the trigger yet - getting closer.... you adrenaline will start pumping... it is a blast...

I can see why it rubs against the notion of 'chivalry' - but the best airmen weren't the cavalier types, they were the ones who survived.

You will find as the game progresses on you, that your tactic thinking evolves beyond shooting and ACM - this game just get's better and better all the time.

Someone said that Combat Flying was like chess at 400KPH - I do so agree on that - and I love it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EDIT:

The above post is spot on - I forgot that element. You may THINK he is not aware of your presence, maybe he is not - maybe he is!


Message Edited on 07/09/0306:15PM by Tuposti_Yanev

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 08:00 PM
Azzii wrote:

- What I don't like about the group vs group thing is
- that, as one guy mentioned, 80% of his kills were
- from "suprise" [and luck]. Sneaking up on some
- poor unknowing bastage and blasting him out of the
- sky is not my idea of fun.


But that's how it was usually done. Most kills in WWII were as a result of a bounce, they didn't know what was happening till they started taking hits. The "dogfight" was the exception rather than the rule.

And BnZ is a skill that is not easy to master (I'm still trying). It takes a lot more thought, patience and discipline than just TnBing. Try it, you'll like it.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 08:13 PM
Tuposti_Yanev -- you may be right, I might learn to like it. We'll see. ;-)

I definitely don't care whether what I'm doing is "historically correct" or not ...if I did I'd just watch the History Channel. =P


I have to agree...BnZ is hard as heck. Of course, "suprise" is not a pre-req for BnZ.



Message Edited on 07/09/0307:43PM by Azzii

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 08:51 PM
Hey Galway..your link shows an error 303 access denied, is any way you can upload it in another site?

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Pawnee1995.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 08:53 PM
I found (many pages of) that book online on simhq.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 10:53 PM
Azzii wrote:
-
- Couple questions/observations:
-
-
- Gunnery -- From my exp, it seems like gunnery is the
- most important skill in fighting. Practicing alot
- of TnB, I learned to get on the enemyies' tail (AI)
- pretty well, but it would still take me 10 minutes
- and all my ammo to shoot the bastage down! I could
- never even dream of doing rope-a-dope with that lack
- of gunnery skill, correct? Even BnZ is tough for
- me. How good is everyone else at gunnery? Now I'm
- playing mostly against "rookie" AI pilots so I can
- get lots of gun practice in--it is definitely
- helping ALOT.

Hah, This is a good tip: You must not have the target fixed in the same realtive position (your gunsight) you want, all the time. I make most of my kills by, letting the target slide through my gunsight gently and start shooting, before the supposed "centre" of your aim solution and continue a little after this point. This method is also helping you in your aiming, with BnZ tactics.
-
-
- E -- vs same-ac "rookie" AI, I do a lead turn on
- initial HO-pass and immediately get on his
- 6...however...I always end up having waayyy too much
- closure so I end up having to climb pretty steep
- behind him as he turns (like a high yo-yo?), cut
- throttle, and sometimes even drop flaps so that I
- don't overshoot. It works out so I'm on his 6, but
- I was wondering what a better pilot would do. With
- E being so important and all, I assume this type of
- E-bleeding tactic is a no-no, so what would I do
- instead? Just stick with the climb and return to
- BnZ? What's funny is that I just finished a high-G
- lead turn to get on his tail and I'm still way
- higher on E.
-
-
It really depends. If there is no danger of an other enemy that might be lurking to get on your six, you can easily cut throttle. You can also do this if your weapons are weak (like on the buffalo B-239) and you really want to make the kill.

However, if you fly the FW-190, with multiple enemies close to you, you really should decide to climb and preserve E. Not only is the FW-190 not a turn-fighter, it's awesome weapon array allows you to make a kill with very little ammo wasted. In planes like the P-11c or, the B-239, You really need alot of ammo for a kill.


This is in average situations, with an average pilot. There are ppl who are aces on the weirdest aicraft. A good plane to practise flying in general (including gunnery) is the Hurricane mkIIc. Make sure you have this version because it has 4X20mm guns and is a very good gun platform.

But above all: Enjoy yourself!

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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