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View Full Version : Depth Charges ... I wonder ....



Maj_Solo
11-02-2005, 02:41 PM
How do they move in the water? I was DCed for an hour or so (died). I always jink 30 degrees when hydrophone guys yell DCs in the water. I am simulating while I check the events in free camera. I was at 80m depth at the bottom. Everytime I jinked I only got about 10 - 15 meter to the side and just sustained some minor damage to Flak and Gun, nothing to tower and none whatsoever to hull integrity. Then I did not jink one time but kept full speed ahead and therefore had something like 30m lead from the last DC drop point when they exploded. The result was fatal flooding in the forward compartment! huh? forward compartment .... they must have been moving in the horizontal at DC speed or something or at least sub speed, except from the usual complaint that they drop to 80m in like 10 sec, definitely in shorter time than 15 sec.

I heared complaint they drop too fast but what is the concensus so far on the DCs and their damage?

(I guess G√ľnter Slick was not so slick after all) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Kaleun1961
11-02-2005, 04:23 PM
I agree that they sink too quickly. Some clever person recently did an article on here about the sinking rates of DC's and proved how flawed the sink rate is in this game.

Many U-boats were not outright killed by DC's. It took a lucky close hit to kill a U-boat. What usually happened is that the U-boat took a lot of damage from repeated hammering, smashing systems inside the boat, and eventually the boat had to surface. If a depth charge ruptured the battery casings, salt water could mix with the battery acid and make chlorine gas. The U-boat had to surface immediately to ventilate the boat and of course the escorts would be waiting.

W.Irving
11-02-2005, 04:26 PM
I would recommend against running at flank speed unless the destroyers are pinging you for depth (i.e. when they have you pinned down). What's the point in remaining silent anyway?
Right-click on the CE and give 20 degrees of rudder (any more, and you'll lose speed) and order flank speed when a destroyer is dumping. Otherwise slow ahead + silent running.

You might want to blow ballast as well (remember to press A before you reach the surface http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif), or at least change depth "the normal way" now and then, to make it a bit more difficult for the lads in the RN.

jooo9
11-02-2005, 04:28 PM
The trick is to go deeeeep- between 160 and 240 meters- and when a DD is done deph charging yah, turn off your engines. (You really need to go deep. The only times I was ever killed by deph charges was at between 15-60 meters.) The momentum will keep your sub moving foreward for some time, so the DDs will deph charge where that last heared you, which should be a safe distance away at that point. When the DD has gone away, rev up your engines and continue on course.

Maj_Solo
11-02-2005, 04:34 PM
That is what I do, I try silent running, but it was my 5th patrol and he just didn't let me off the hook so I got tired and started experimenting. And so I did something I normally don't and got so surprised by the result. Silent running yes and when they go ping ping ping, especially if the ping stops and you hear engines at max rev I go flank speed and turn 30 and then I go silent just before the last charges detonate, but as I said this guy I could not fool... I will not continue straight never again I can almost gurrantee that ....

And also I want to repeat I could not go any deeper, see floor was 9m below keel so 80m was max.

W.Irving
11-02-2005, 04:34 PM
You could also set a default speed of, say, 1 kt. The screws turn at less than 10 rpm, so no cavitation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fekin_Von_dEtRi
11-02-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
I agree that they sink too quickly. Some clever person recently did an article on here about the sinking rates of DC's and proved how flawed the sink rate is in this game.

Was it this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/6711048763/r/6711048763#6711048763)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

baggygreen
11-02-2005, 05:00 PM
Also Maj Solo, you said that you go back to silent just before the depth charges go off - Once they've exploded you have some more time, dependant on which way the destroyer has turned following the attack, during which you're able to run at a quicker speed without being detected, due to the disturbances in the water. It helps you escape the immediate vicinity of where they think you are, and then after 20 or 30 seconds i bring her back down to slow ahead, silent. I also try to dive an extra 20 or 30m.

cheers,
baggy

Maj_Solo
11-02-2005, 05:29 PM
OK, I try to clarify the original question:

Is there an unrealistic FORWARD motion of the DCs once they splashed into the water? If anyone have an opinion just let us hear it.

I seldome get into this situation anymore, being DCed but next time I am going to follow the last DC dropped, check where it hits and where the sim decides to give me damage.....

Fekin_Von_dEtRi
11-02-2005, 05:38 PM
No.
The depth charge should not have any real forward motion once it has been dropped.

Nothing in the game on how the DC's are moddled is correct really.
They reach very deep depths very quickly, which they should not do, so any other error in behaviour wouldn't suprise me.

Ratek
11-02-2005, 07:21 PM
Maj_Solo you mentioned the floor was closeby, could it be that you hit the bottom right as the DCs hit? You were after all going at flank speed which would mean severe damage if you hit the bottom (it seems the bottom is worse than a ship).

I have never experienced any damage pop up away from the DC. They always damage the nearest areas properly. And they go down in a straigth line.

Perhaps the last DC was dropped quite late and happened to be in front of you? The DDs do that at times.

Kaleun1961
11-02-2005, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Fekin_Von_dEtRi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
I agree that they sink too quickly. Some clever person recently did an article on here about the sinking rates of DC's and proved how flawed the sink rate is in this game.

Was it this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/6711048763/r/6711048763#6711048763)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, that was the article I was thinking of. A good one, too, I don't mind to brag on your behalf.

AO1_AW_SW_USN
11-03-2005, 12:53 AM
If you find yourself in the shallows (15-60 meters depth) try to play chicken with the destroyer!

What I mean is try to run +/- 25 degrees and pointed towards the DD's fantail (back end of the ship) and head at full or flank speed towards the destroyer. When she makes her depth charge drop it will be too late and you will have the charges explode aft of you. That's when you launch a decoy and put as much distance from the decoy and yourself as you can.

Another point in this tactic is that you will be in his baffles (a noisy area that's created by the destroyer's own propellers) and will effectively be in his blind spot. The draw back is that the DD will be in your baffles too!

Since I've used this tactic, I have never been lost at sea in shallow waters.

W.Irving
11-03-2005, 03:54 AM
There are several unrealistic aspects with depth charging in the game. The max depth of 100 metres for the early war dc's seem accurate though.

In the game though, there is some turbulence a few seconds after the blast while in real life the turbulence should last for minutes!

One other thing that annoys me is the bold decoy. I measured the running time of the thing and timed it at 3 minutes, whereas the real bold operated for 30 minutes!

As Kaleun pointed out, single dc's were seldom lethal. Some boats were attacked for hours, sometimes days, and were eventually sunk, scuttled or had to surface. Several hundreds of dc's were sometimes dropped. This doesn't happen in SHIII. Either you sustain minor damage to the tower and gun(s) and manage to slip away after 10 mins, or you're killed instantly.


Message for Strategic Simulations: Try adding a bit more of simulation to the next game in the SH series!

Rant over.

Kaleun1961
11-03-2005, 06:13 PM
Another aspect of this game that is unrealistic is how you know what damage has been inflicted on your external systems while you are still submerged. You should not know these things until after you surface.

How can you tell from inside your sub if your deck gun or flak guns have been damaged by a DC explosion?

Ratek
11-03-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
How can you tell from inside your sub if your deck gun or flak guns have been damaged by a DC explosion?
Well that argument begs the question: How do you know how bad the hull is damaged?

W.Irving
11-04-2005, 02:11 AM
Bravo, I say!
The % indicator must go. Crush depth should be altered though, but you shouldn't know how damaged your boat is.

Fekin_Von_dEtRi
11-04-2005, 02:39 AM
How can you tell from inside your sub if your deck gun or flak guns have been damaged by a DC explosion?

Have a look outa the window of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

CRSutton
11-04-2005, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
Another aspect of this game that is unrealistic is how you know what damage has been inflicted on your external systems while you are still submerged. You should not know these things until after you surface.

How can you tell from inside your sub if your deck gun or flak guns have been damaged by a DC explosion?

I always leave a man on deck to report back to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Kaleun1961
11-04-2005, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by W.Irving:
Bravo, I say!
The % indicator must go. Crush depth should be altered though, but you shouldn't know how damaged your boat is.

I agree to a certain extent. We should not be able to say with such precision how damaged our hull is. That is too "Star Trek-like" to me: "Captain, we only have 33% left on our dilithium crystals and I don't how much longer she'll last!" We should however be able to know in a rough way, as it does seem plausible that a chief engineer must have been able to reckon that some damage had been done to the hull. Perhaps there were indications of hull damage, like visible deformities on the interior walls or subsystems attached to the hull taking damage which could indicate a problem. We should have something like this: light damage, moderate damage or heavy damage. Not quite so precise as what we now have, but enough to scare us so we are not too sure of pressing our luck with a damaged boat.

HeibgesU999
11-04-2005, 05:10 PM
Wasn't there a fix to DC's, because in the initial release the escorts always dropped them behind the uboat.

I personally have never been killed by DC's at depths greater than 100m

And I avoided two escorts once in 40m of water. This was really fun!

Ratek
11-04-2005, 05:33 PM
Then imagine playing tag with a couple DD a few Corvettes and an Armed Trawler in 25 meters... Intense!!!

In the end, when you finally make the getaway, you are so worked up about it that you just want to pop that nice Tribal passing 400 meters behind you. And of course it misses and you have another round with them.

W.Irving
11-04-2005, 05:52 PM
Re light/moderate/heavy damage - good idea, Kaleun. Although I'm not sure what sort of damage the pressure hull sustained.

If it consisted of riveted plates, I'd expect the rivets to pop out, exposing slits through which the water could pour in.

But these are German subs, so I shall assume their hulls were steel plates carefully welded together. Would the welds break?

Or would the hull simply be severely dented around the affected area, making it lose its resilient egg shape and just give way to the pressure, stretching and tearing and finally exposing a hole in the bottom of the 'crater' (this of course happening extremely rapidly)?

However, I am betting the pressure hull didn't even sustain any significant damage from depth charges, but simply acted as a membrane, transferring the shock into the interior of the boat! The boats had internal ballast tanks, inside of the pressure hulls (bloody stupid, IMO). Perhaps the plumbing for these tanks was prone to giving way.

Does anyone here actually know what happened to the hull when exposed to depth charges (perhaps modern day subbers)? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kaleun1961
11-04-2005, 06:02 PM
The ballast tanks were inside the pressure hull!!?? I had no idea of that. I had always assumed that they were on the outside. I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of the pressure hull dented. They were welded together, not riveted, so I imagine a weld letting go would rip like the backside out of a cheap pair of pants worn by a fat guy bending over. Once they let go, they let go in a big way.

[No offence intended toward those ectomorphic individuals who frequent this forum. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif]

Ratek
11-04-2005, 06:45 PM
There was for a time a 'fight' between rivet proponents and weld proponents in most navies about submarines and U-boats.

The main advantage claimed by the 'riveteers' (I just made that up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) was the riveted plates would make noises when it began to get stressed to it's breakingpoint, meaning any crew would have ample warning. Meaning also that they could testdive the sub with safety to determine how deep it could go.

'Welders' held firm to their knowledge that welded subs were much stronger, and they were. Thus making the knowledge of the crushdepth of the riveted sub useless as welded subs could just go deeper without fear, and much deeper with fear. But then the crews had to rely on the yard's specifications, which were often very much less than what the boat was capable of.

Oh yes, it was mainly the broken pipes and such that caused a sinking. The pipes' joints would burst, causing a slow flooding from which the boat couldn't recover.... fall... fall... CRUSH!!!
Few were sunk by means of cracking open the hull by DCs, in fact I have never heard of that, but then again I haven't digged into that, so perhaps some of you guys could show me?

W.Irving
11-04-2005, 07:15 PM
The main ballast tanks were located outside of the pressure hull, but there were still interior tanks that could be flooded or blown to the preference of the captain. I'm sure it was useful on some occasions. I'm no engineer, but if I built a submarine designed for warfare I bloody well wouldn't connect the inside of the boat to the ocean more than was absolutely necessary!

Ratek - as I thought. I am sure there were occasions where uboats had their hulls pierced or broken in half (under the keel shot with dc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif), but they cannot have been that many. To begin with, there is a flimsy deck on top of the boat which probably would have absorbed a lot of the shock. Secondly, the size of the dc warheads are the same as the torpedo warheads, and they more or less required direct contact to blow a hole (as they are not shaped). Ships hulls were also riveted (not counting the Liberty http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Kaleun1961
11-04-2005, 07:23 PM
Maybe you are referring to the trim tanks? With them they could adjust the trim of the boat by pumping water fore and aft. It saved them from having to send men back and forth.

W.Irving
11-05-2005, 04:38 AM
I'm pretty sure the boats had additional internal dive tanks, along with the trim tanks. For those "Mein gott - kanadischer Bomberflieger auf dem Horizont!!!" moments. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Ratek
11-05-2005, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by W.Irving:
Ratek - as I thought. I am sure there were occasions where uboats had their hulls pierced or broken in half (under the keel shot with dc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif), but they cannot have been that many. To begin with, there is a flimsy deck on top of the boat which probably would have absorbed a lot of the shock. Secondly, the size of the dc warheads are the same as the torpedo warheads, and they more or less required direct contact to blow a hole (as they are not shaped). Ships hulls were also riveted (not counting the Liberty http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Well, a few could of course have been sunk by broken backs and perhaps if the hull was already weakened it could burst. But that is very much chance-hits.

But a DC wasn't as strong as a torpedo, it was at most 300lbs, while most torpedoes were about 300kg+. That is about double, and in the case of the Japanese Long Lance it was almost eight times (a full ton of explosives, it was the most advanced torpedo of the war).

W.Irving
11-05-2005, 10:04 AM
Got my units mixed up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
I assume 300lb is about (or slightly less than) 150 kg..

Ratek
11-05-2005, 08:05 PM
Yup, actually more like 140kg, but it is always fair to estimate it to be half a kilo.
But it all depends on what pount is used. Imperial, metric (500 grams), short or long pounds, and I think there is even another one.

U-268
11-06-2005, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by W.Irving:
Bravo, I say!
The % indicator must go. Crush depth should be altered though, but you shouldn't know how damaged your boat is.

In the U-Boat. realsimulation mod the % meter for damage has been removed.

W.Irving
11-07-2005, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by U-268:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by W.Irving:
Bravo, I say!
The % indicator must go. Crush depth should be altered though, but you shouldn't know how damaged your boat is.

In the U-Boat. realsimulation mod the % meter for damage has been removed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't find a mod called that, only the website..

Kaleun1961
11-07-2005, 02:28 PM
I think he means the Real U-boat mod, which is available at that site, and also one or two other sites.

You can also manually edit the game files so that you do not see the hull integrity display. Or, you can use SH3 Commander, which allows you to choose whether you see the hull integrity display.

There is also a mod which allows you to randomize the crush depth for each boat. You will now never know for sure how deep you can go.

W.Irving
11-07-2005, 02:30 PM
Okay. Thanx, I think I'll finally submit to the group pressure and download SHIII Cmdr. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kaleun1961
11-07-2005, 02:32 PM
Once you use it, you will never want to play again without it. Make sure to carefully read the documentation. Many people fail to do so and then end up with some issue or other, which is usually covered in the documentation.