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View Full Version : Lagg 3 Good design poor manufacture ?



XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 05:16 PM
As the Lagg3 isn't too bad a plane in FB and as we all know the La5 & 7 developed from it were excellant aircraft, is it possible that the Lagg was a good design that just suffered from poor quality manufacture ?

Or were substantial changes made in the change from Lagg3 to La 5 ?

I'm curious as the Lagg3 '43 is reported to have better performance than the La5 in some ways. ?

Did the Lagg3 jsut get a bad rep much like the P-39 did in the US & UK ?

thoughts ?

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 05:16 PM
As the Lagg3 isn't too bad a plane in FB and as we all know the La5 & 7 developed from it were excellant aircraft, is it possible that the Lagg was a good design that just suffered from poor quality manufacture ?

Or were substantial changes made in the change from Lagg3 to La 5 ?

I'm curious as the Lagg3 '43 is reported to have better performance than the La5 in some ways. ?

Did the Lagg3 jsut get a bad rep much like the P-39 did in the US & UK ?

thoughts ?

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 05:18 PM
Saburo_0 wrote:
- As the Lagg3 isn't too bad a plane in FB and as we
- all know the La5 & 7 developed from it were
- excellant aircraft, is it possible that the Lagg was
- a good design that just suffered from poor quality
- manufacture ?
-
- Or were substantial changes made in the change from
- Lagg3 to La 5 ?
-
- I'm curious as the Lagg3 '43 is reported to have
- better performance than the La5 in some ways. ?
-
- Did the Lagg3 jsut get a bad rep much like the P-39
- did in the US & UK ?
-
- thoughts ?
-
<img
- src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df00
- 2.jpg">
-
- "Anytime you have an opportunity to make things
- better and you don't, then you are wasting your time
- on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

could be, but lagg's die like poo when comperd to my yak 3 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG


http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG


http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 05:28 PM
Well, the La5 is just a LaGG 3 with a diffrent engine. The guns were moved and insteada of 2 Mgs and 1 20mm they used two 20mm. Was a good design, crappy engine/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Take a look to the sky just before you die. Its the last time you will!
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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 06:11 PM
Rattler, Thought I read somewhere that the Center of Gravity was changed & this resulted in greater maneuverability. Don't have any good books on Laggs yet so...
Now how much of a change I don't know, maybe the improvement was slight?

Anyway just interested, & tired of whining posts.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:12 PM
If you pick up this month's Aviation History, you will find a huge article on the Lagg designs which would answer all your questions. Great read, very good magazine.

Lagg 3 was strong design, better with the radial.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I read somewhere that they where rushed trough production and because of that, nicknamed, the flying coffin. It is also rumored that the material for the canopy became non-transperant after some use.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:31 PM
The La5's didn't get good until the La5FN. Alot of changes were made from it being a Lagg.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:47 PM
Hedus, Thanks for the tip I will definitely look for that magazine!


BuzzU,

Do you know what sort of changes were made ? And were these then incorporated in the Lagg3 '43 ?
It's interesting because the Yaks outfitted with the same enginge as the La5 for tests weren't very good apparently....

http://www.freeflights.net/takeoff/boxart/aer_lagg3.jpg


http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:57 PM
Here's a good site for you to read about the la's

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Lavochkin.html

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:12 PM
LaGG like many other "modern" Russian planes suffered due to extremely bad timing for their introduction into service. Designed before the beginning of the War, they all were very "raw", there were a lot of quirks to iron out, but there was no time. Yak-1 was rushed into production even before testing, manufacture of it started using design blueprints, for example. Changes needed to be done during the hardest for Russians period of military defeat and evacuation of many aircraft and component manufacturing plant Eastward. Many materials thought to be plentiful before the war become in deficit. Many promising pre-war technologies, like delta-wood, become very hard to use in those hardest for Soviets times. Some substandard components were introduced to substitute for hard to produce stuff. For example normal birch and pine was used instead of delta-wood. War instruments had to be given to man fighting at the front at any cost, and they were.
Soviet problems were not unique - British earlier and Germans later were facing almost same set of problems, and tried to resolve them by similar means. In case of Russians, once new manufacturing base had been established, there was non-ending effort to improve the quality of the tools of war. Some new (unexpected before the beginning of the war) sources of raw materials appeared - Lend-leas. Shortage of aircraft aluminum thought to be unsolvable - proved to be much less of a problem with all the shipments of aluminum from US, and developing own manufacturing base. Before the war ended Soviets were designing and producing full metal aircrafts, just when Germans started to produce wooden.

With access to very advanced research facilities of TsAGI (Subsonic Wind Tunnel there was newer, bigger and better then even one in Langley) Russian designers were well equipped at some point (end of 1942) to start working on improving quality of the planes - and they did.

By the way, Stalin himself was involved in resolving the problem with rotten quality of plexiglas in the cockpits of Russian planes. On one of the meetings with Russian pilots one of them start comparing quality of plexiglas in LaGG-3 with plexiglas in P-40 canopy. In the presents of those pilots Stalin called the manager of the plant producing Plexiglas for aircraft canopies and asked if he had a technology to produce same quality as in P-40. Having receiving the response, that the technology was there, just some materials were missing, Stalin obligated the manager of the plant in set period of time (don't remember, something like four weeks) start producing "American plextiglas" under the threat of being "personally responsible" He (Stalin) personally took care of establishing the supply of needed materials for this project. Needless to say, in four weeks problem with bad plexigals was over.




AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 07/18/0303:21PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:26 PM
Here is an excerpt from the memoirs of P.M.Stefanovski - the pilot who complained to Stalin. I wish someone would translate, for I don't have a talent. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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â¿çü ? á² *â¥**. ² ¨* ¯?¥¤¦¨ ¤¨?¥ª²?³ ç ⤠?¥çª ¯â¨²ü ª ÷¥²â ¯¥ª¨ .
- ªüª â ¯²?¥á³¥²¿ â?¥¥*¨ ¤¿ ¯¥?¥²?骨 ¯?¨ç⤲â ? - ¯?¨ ² ¨*. - ¤ ? Ӟ â ¥¿¶ ?ª³. ˆ ÷²á *âé ¯¥ª¨ á *¥ µ³¦¥, ÷¥ * "ª¥?²¨¥" ¨ "² ³ª¥". - ?³áª ¥ª¨ çâ* ¥ * ¥².
- € â, ²â ?¨ ߪâ¥â, - á? ²¨¿ * ª €¥ª *¤?³ ¥?¥¥â¨÷³, - *¥¥¤¥** ³³÷¸¨²¥ áç? ´* ?¿ ª á¨* * ç ¤ ¨ ¤¥ é²¥ * *¥ â ?¨é*é á?.  ¦¥, ²â ?¨¨, - ç ª÷¨ ˆ. Ӛ. ² ¨*, - ¯?¨¤¥²¿ ¨ç¥*¨²ü ¯?¥ª² ¯² *â¥*¨¿, â?¨²ü â *¥, ÷² ¤¿ ¯?¨á?¥²¥*¨¿ * âªâ ¯¥²â ç ª?² ´* ?¥ ª á¨* á¿ç ²ü ¥²÷¨ªâ ç ª?â ²ü ¥ â ¯¥²¥ â*¥ ´¥? ¤¥é²â¨¿ ¨²?¥á¨²¥¥é ¯?²¨â*¨ª .
Ӛª?¥ ª ÷¥²â ¯¥ª¨ á ³³÷¸¥*, ´? ´* ?¿ * ⥵ ¥?¨é*µ ¥² µ ¨ç¥*¥* ¨ ¤¥ * ¯?¨¯á¥*¨¥ ¤¿ â ?¨é* á? . ª ¯?² ¨ á²? ?¥¸¨¿ ÷¥*ü â ¦*é â¯? á?üá *⨠´ ¸¨²ª¨¨ ¥² ¨..."

From http://www.testpilot.ru/review/300x/shield_1.htm



AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 11:57 PM
Buzz thanks for the link.

here's a quote that stands out.

At Gorkii extensive efforts were now being made to improve the LaGG-3's performance and combat capabilities. Refinements were added to increase speed but not validated by the NII VVS. Later trials carried out by the NII VVS were conducted in "less than sympathetic" conditions with the aircraft fully laden with rocket projectiles, the canopy removed and radiators shutters left fully open continuously. Their report further condemned the plane as now having a high noise level, high control column forces and poor range.

"Less than sympathetic" conditions. WTF ? Was the plane a killer or something that the pilots hated it & wanted it out of service ? earlier the article says it wa more survivable than the Yaks but disliked.... Seems like part of the story is missing.....hmm,
oh well.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 12:56 AM
The part missing is that plane was originally designed for M-106 engine which suppose to go into production pretty much at the same timeframe. It was suppose to have 1300 hp on take-off. With the evacuation of the industries, need for mass production of planes dictated that more mature version of this engine M-105 (1000 hp) was kept as "interim" solution, temporarily, before M-106 or M-107 were "perfected" with all consequences of having less powerful engine installed in the planes which were becoming heavier.
Well - M-106 never saw the production. M-107A was finally declared good enough in the mid of 1944 and installed in Yak-9U, Yak-9UT and in one of versions of Pe-2.
But before that Soviet designers were so desperate, that production of licensed Merlin engine was also considered.

Russian planes are so light, carry little of ammo and have limited range just because of this - M-105 (later VK-105PF2) engine maximum power output grew to 1250 hp, but that was it. Reading the memoirs of Russian aircraft designers, engineers (Yakovlev, others) you are being constantly reminded about the straggle of saving any weight possible at all the development stages. Nothing like P-47 or Hellcat was possible for Russians.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942