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View Full Version : Herr Heinkel's problem with German Air Ministry ?



ViktorViktor
12-01-2007, 04:50 AM
I have now read about 2 Heinkel designs which are judged today as well-done, yet were turned down by the RLM. Another Heinkel product (He-219) did see its share of combat but it's war contribution is said to have been blunted by political opposition.

The first design was the He-112, which ultimately lost out to the Bf-109 despite good marks from the test-pilots who flew it.

The other design was the He-280, the world's first JET combat aircraft, which preceded the Me-262, flying first in April 1941 (with jet engines).

This leads one to wonder just what sort of relations the Heinkel concern had with the military and political leaders of Germany.

Was there any discrimination going on here, and why ? I'd like to know.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JtD
12-01-2007, 04:56 AM
Relations varied.

It's not always the best performing plane to win a contest. Other qualities are as or even more important.

And 1941 wasn't a good year for new designs anyway, as the war was to be won pretty soon and no long term (more than a year) developments were allowed to proceed.

DuxCorvan
12-01-2007, 05:34 AM
It was not because Heinkel was not loved, but because of Messerschmitt being the pretty child of Göing and the RLM.

cawimmer430
12-01-2007, 08:27 AM
It's quite obvious that Willy threw the better parties. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


On a side note, I hear the He-219 was a real badass and if the design had been given some priority it would have been a real threat to the Allied bombers.

Kurfurst__
12-01-2007, 08:35 AM
Professor Heinkel. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ViktorViktor
12-01-2007, 08:36 AM
The Bf-109 was chosen over the He-112 back in the 1930s to be the Luftwaffe's main fighter for the upcoming war - despite the fact that the He-112 was much more maneuverable, had a much better view, wide-track landing, and a better field performance. The Bf-109 was a little faster, but the RLM test pilots favored the He-112 overall. A later combat evaluation in Spain favored the He-112 over the Bf-109. So why did the He-112 lose out ?

And if 1941 was a bad year for innovative German designs (that is jet designs) why didn't the same lack of interest kill the Me-262 project like it did the He-280 ?

The He-219 got put into service, but I have read that it could have played a much bigger role in the Luftwaffe were it not for political in-fighting. But what exactly was going on here when there is talk of 'political in-fighting' ?

leitmotiv
12-01-2007, 08:51 AM
Milch wanted to rationalize production. He saw no need for the 219 when the Ju 88 was the standard Luftwaffe bomber/heavy fighter. He was also extremely angry at Heinkel for BS-ing about the He 177 program. Supposedly H was somewhat of a big corporate weasel---but Messerschmitt was a formidable weasel, too, as well as being a BS-er (witness the colossal Me 210 screwup). The head of the state-run Junkers operation (stolen from Hugo Junkers by the ruthless Milch) was another uberweasel who made incredible promises about the Ju 88 program. As with the U.S. aviation industry, weaseling goes with the trade.

ViktorViktor
12-01-2007, 09:01 AM
Thanks for not mentioning Focke-Wulf and Kurt Tank when you wrote about weasels. Don't know what I'd do if it turned out the FW-190 was weasled as well.

leitmotiv
12-01-2007, 09:06 AM
From what I've seen Tank was pretty good about delivering the goods---one reason he was honored with the Ta designation for his later designs. Ta 154 was a flop, but that was due to the essential glue factory getting wasted by the RAF in a saturation raid on general targets.

JtD
12-01-2007, 02:31 PM
It's said that Udet told Heinkel that his plane was better than the 109, but the 109 was good enough and easier, cheaper and faster to produce. Thus the 109 was built and the 112 lost out.

BfHeFwMe
12-01-2007, 04:32 PM
Heinkel wasn't very well liked because he was a true independent who could make his own decisions and formulate his own business plans. He was the real power behind the jet engine birth in Germany, along with several other important technologies. The engines that ended up in the 262 among others wouldn't have existed without his R&D. It was his plan to establish domination in the German aviation industry by not only having the capability to produce cutting edge airframes, but also hold the keys with the new jet engines under his domination. No other major airframe manufacturer in Germany produced it's own engines. He had remarkable foresight into the future, be thankful the nazis shot him in the foot and tried to stop him.

You could say he wasn't liked, the nazi hierarchy wanted their hands in the enterprise as they did with Junkers, raking off the top ripping off their own contracts. Heinkel wouldn't have any of that, was too good of a businessman to get tangled up and suffered as a consequence. Nothing like having your engines ripped off from under you and used to save your competitors sinking project, while yours are discarded.

Heliopause
12-01-2007, 05:11 PM
-It also has to do with aircraft production capabilities I think.

-The He 280 didn't have the range like the Me 262 did.

cawimmer430
12-01-2007, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
No other major airframe manufacturer in Germany produced it's own engines.


What about Junkers? I thought they made their own engines and even sourced them to other aircraft companies.

zardozid
12-01-2007, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
It's said that Udet told Heinkel that his plane was better than the 109, but the 109 was good enough and easier, cheaper and faster to produce. Thus the 109 was built and the 112 lost out.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I read the same thing...(somewhere)

Kurfurst__
12-02-2007, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
...but Messerschmitt was a formidable weasel, too, as well as being a BS-er (witness the colossal Me 210 screwup).

Well if you`d have done some reading on the 210`s story, you`d realize the 210 screwup was largely rooted in the fact that the RLM itself was pushing hard for the new aircraft, which could not be properly tested due to the lack of time before it went into production. Oh, yes, and take your anti-seizure pill if you wish to reply.

Now as far as the anti-Heinkel conspiracy goes, I guess that originates to Prof. Heinkel himself. Milch personally hated Messerschmitt, so if he was giving contract to his firm, I guess it was the good decision at the time for the LW. He simply choose the better product.

As far as the He 112, it really had nothing to offer over the prototype Bf 109 it competed, it was more difficult to produce and it displayed continous teething troubles during the test. IIRC it`s fate was sealed when it failed it`s spinning tests in direct comparison with the 109. The situation for the RLM was clear, one competitor could be produced quickly, which was very specifically designed for ease of maintaince in field conditios, and it was seen free from development delays, with equivalent or better performance. And while Heinkel was able to improve the He 112 later on, he was always one development phase behind Messerschmitt, who`s fighter was already in production anyway.

JtD
12-02-2007, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:

Well if you`d have done some reading on the 210`s story, you`d realize the 210 screwup was largely rooted in the fact that the RLM itself was pushing hard for the new aircraft, which could not be properly tested due to the lack of time before it went into production. Oh, yes, and take your anti-seizure pill if you wish to reply.

Wasn't it Messerschmitt who said he could actually match the timeframe the RLM asked for? Afaik, he also made the decision to built the plane that quickly and he made changes to the original design that proved to be wrong.
Now while some of the RLM staff are certainly to blame, Willy was having a huge share in that giant failure.

HuninMunin
12-02-2007, 07:39 AM
The He 112 was an aircraft still deeply in the 30s.
It was a "handcrafted", complicated and expensive design.
The hundrednine won because it was cheap and easy to produce - and in addition still had overall better performence in terms the RLM valued above all ( and did rightly so as later prooven ) : speed and climb.

The Heinkel team did a hell of a job on the He 100 though.
THAT was a stunning aircraft of enormous potential.
It would have been of immensive benefit to the Luftwaffe in the war ( seeing it's range, speed and overall "roundness" in piloting terms).
This was the aircraft the Luftwaffe needed to suplement the Messerschmitt.
But it had two obstacles in the way that could not in any way be passed.

1. It utilized the DB engine that was at the time reserved for the 109 and 110.
Absolutely no chance to get the needed HP for the design to shine ( the RLM asked for a Jumo powered version but Heinkel felt that an aircraft build for superior speed equiped with a
substandard engine would make no sense ).

2. The role in combat it could have filled so perfectly was allready blocked by Göings dearest child ( the 110 ).

Imagine the ZGs beeing equiped with a single engined fighter of the He 100s qualities instead of the failing 110.

While we are at it; you can see Göings stupidity looking at the FW 187's history.
It really makes you drool.
Or makes you thank god for his "effords"; depending on how you look at it.

sgt.dumpster
12-02-2007, 09:57 PM
ok ,thats enough bashing the bf109 tonight!! Hate all you must;herr but there is one hell of a reason that beautiful plane seen it all through till the end........................herr marken...

WOLFMondo
12-03-2007, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
From what I've seen Tank was pretty good about delivering the goods---one reason he was honored with the Ta designation for his later designs. Ta 154 was a flop, but that was due to the essential glue factory getting wasted by the RAF in a saturation raid on general targets.

Quote needed for that other thread on bombing...

K_Freddie
12-03-2007, 01:57 PM
You know these corrupt military politics hasn't stopped yet.

Look at our own "defence force' or what's left of it. The 'favoured bidder' was chosen over the bidder with better equipment.
This 'favoured bidder' now sits in jail, but if his co-conspirator get's into office, a big $$ pardon will surely be on the way.

Our 'allies', the US and UK are no different, as are many other greedy little 'Milch's' around the world.

And all the while your brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers die in combat due to 'below par' equipment.

Nobody must talk about patriotism, nationalism, etc... it's all one big con http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WN_Barbarossa
12-03-2007, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
And 1941 wasn't a good year for new designs anyway, as the war was to be won pretty soon and now long term (more than a year) developments were allowed to proceed.

You mean they were NOT allowed to proceed?
BTW that short term thinking delayed the development of many important weapons, sadly.

Korolov1986
12-03-2007, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by WN_Barbarossa:
You mean they were NOT allowed to proceed?
BTW that short term thinking delayed the development of many important weapons, sadly.

He's saying that short term projects were not considered important, and that they felt they had the time for long term projects. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Xiolablu3
12-03-2007, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
...which was very specifically designed for ease of maintaince in field conditios


I have read that Kurt Tank hated the Bf109 because it was so finnicky and awkward to service/work on in the field?

I thought he designed the FW190 to be totally different to the Bf109, in that it could be rugged and easily maintained in the field?

Maybe these are just rumours?

While looking for the truth on Tanks opinions on the Bf109, I found this site, listing strange Bf109 related projects, if you are interested :-

http://www.adlertag.de/flugzeuge/projekteeng.htm

JtD
12-03-2007, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by WN_Barbarossa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
And 1941 wasn't a good year for new designs anyway, as the war was to be won pretty soon and now long term (more than a year) developments were allowed to proceed.

You mean they were NOT allowed to proceed?
BTW that short term thinking delayed the development of many important weapons, sadly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"now long term" = "no long term"

Sorry. Thanks.

LEXX_Luthor
12-03-2007, 11:07 PM
Yough I'd like to see He-100D for an optional campaign scenario in BoB And Beyond. Given we got The Lurch, Oleg might model the ultimate WW2 Dora himself, or the modders might do it if Oleg opens the planes.

HuninMunin::

:
:
:
2. The role in combat it could have filled so perfectly was allready blocked by Göings dearest child ( the 110 ).

Imagine the ZGs beeing equiped with a single engined fighter of the He 100s qualities instead of the failing 110.

While we are at it; you can see Göings stupidity looking at the FW 187's history.
:
:

Vanderstok
12-04-2007, 02:51 AM
I think some of us have the He-112 and He-100 mixed up. Just to get things clear: the competitor of the Bf 109 was the He-112 and this was not the better plane at that time:
http://www.luchtoorlog.be/img/me109bc/he112.jpg

Heinkel then designed the He-100 "super pursuit" plane and this was indeed a very modern design, much easier to build, aerodynamically optimised for speed, wide undercarriage, good alround visibility. However, too much time was lost developing the concept of "evaporative cooling" which was too complex.
http://d94132.u23.simplenet.com/images/He-100/He100.JPG

One could argue that the He-100 never made it to production because of Heinkel's problem with the Air Ministry but I think it was mainly because of bad timing: why order another fighter, based around the same engine?

Still, I do hope some day there will be a He-100 addon for SoW BOB! I think it's one of the best looking fighters from WW2 and I'm sure it had lots of development potential.

HuninMunin
12-04-2007, 04:57 AM
I've put the 100 in here because ( as you said ) it was the real competitor to the 109s monopole in the timeframe it could have entered production.
The performence the 100 could have provided in relation to the 109 was significant and I think it wasn't so much of notion that the improvements were to be to small to justify a production but rather that the 109 was allready the best fighter in the world at the time.
The 100 was seen as a kind of overkill.

As stated that was obviously shortsighted because the He 100 offered one thing above all: range.
And a level of pilot comfort ( both ergonomical and performence wise ) that would favor missions over great distances.

@ Lexx
Oh how I agree.
I'd rather have an alternative early war then an alternative late war anytime.
I would pay some serious money to have the Fw 187, He 100 or to go futher a Do 19 or even better a Ju 89 in a fictional 1940 version.
The V-2 prototype of the second made to world reford flights ( 9.3 km height @ 5 tons and 7.2 km @ 10 tons ).

LEXX_Luthor
12-04-2007, 07:23 AM
Yea -100 had some range that could have pushed RAF far inland, although when did the Dora version come out, as earlier evap versions didn't really work out as far as I know. Of course, for "balance" the RAF Fighter Command must have something too match He-100, say Hawker Hunter and Supermarine Swift maybe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif Actually, I'd love a revitalized modernized Battle of Britain THE SIMS about 1959 with the Soviets on the Channel coast, naturally after a modernized revitalized Battle of France with flyable Dassaults.

LEXX_Luthor
12-04-2007, 07:30 AM
vanderstock, very nice 100 lineup pic, thanks for poasting that...would that be Heinkel's "factory defense?"


~> http://d94132.u23.simplenet.com/images/He-100/He100.JPG

JG53Frankyboy
12-04-2007, 08:03 AM
indeed, the Heinkel Fighter hade some development:
He112
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW2/He112-V3-1.jpg

He112B
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/He112-07f.jpg

IF the IL2 game would have staied pure to the easterfornt scenario http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/He112-B1-01f.jpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HuninMunin
12-04-2007, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yea -100 had some range that could have pushed RAF far inland, although when did the Dora version come out, as earlier evap versions didn't really work out as far as I know. Of course, for "balance" the RAF Fighter Command must have something too match He-100, say Hawker Hunter and Supermarine Swift maybe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif Actually, I'd love a revitalized modernized Battle of Britain THE SIMS about 1959 with the Soviets on the Channel coast, naturally after a modernized revitalized Battle of France with flyable Dassaults.

I think the Dora 0 series was build in early summer 1939.
I think in May or June; I'm to lazy to go to the shelf right now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Maybe the timeframe in wich the Sovjets recived theirs could give a hint.