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VonShlagnoff
11-09-2008, 03:41 PM
Had a trial lesson today, in recent weeks I've been thinking about turning this into a career but wanted to leave it until I'd actually flown one to see if I even had the basics, which I did, found it quite natrual too.

Now I'm aware how expensive it is to get your commercial licence, so I'm trying to work out how to save the cash over the next few years and then go to Canada and start from scratch and do the whole thing in a oner.

Now my question is, I play a lot of off line IL2 with an MS FFB stick, and was wondering if getting a copy of the latest MS Flight Sim and good set of controls, rudder pedals, throttle stick etc,track IR would using this help in just brushing up on the basics, or are they too much of a game?

VonShlagnoff
11-09-2008, 03:41 PM
Had a trial lesson today, in recent weeks I've been thinking about turning this into a career but wanted to leave it until I'd actually flown one to see if I even had the basics, which I did, found it quite natrual too.

Now I'm aware how expensive it is to get your commercial licence, so I'm trying to work out how to save the cash over the next few years and then go to Canada and start from scratch and do the whole thing in a oner.

Now my question is, I play a lot of off line IL2 with an MS FFB stick, and was wondering if getting a copy of the latest MS Flight Sim and good set of controls, rudder pedals, throttle stick etc,track IR would using this help in just brushing up on the basics, or are they too much of a game?

Motion-Mx
11-09-2008, 03:46 PM
I'm no pilot but I can vouch for MS Flight Sim,It's amazing.

The attackers of the twin towers used MS FS to train.

Stiletto-
11-09-2008, 03:57 PM
I understand why you'd want to get Flight Simulator, from the civil point of view but apparently Black Shark is by far the best at simulating the physics of a Helicopter, according to reviews. It's out in Russia and should hit the rest of the world shortly.

WTE_Galway
11-09-2008, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
Had a trial lesson today, in recent weeks I've been thinking about turning this into a career but wanted to leave it until I'd actually flown one to see if I even had the basics, which I did, found it quite natrual too.

Now I'm aware how expensive it is to get your commercial licence, so I'm trying to work out how to save the cash over the next few years and then go to Canada and start from scratch and do the whole thing in a oner.

Now my question is, I play a lot of off line IL2 with an MS FFB stick, and was wondering if getting a copy of the latest MS Flight Sim and good set of controls, rudder pedals, throttle stick etc,track IR would using this help in just brushing up on the basics, or are they too much of a game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't fly anymore but used to do a bit of mucking about in GA stuff a few years back.

Good luck with it as a career !!!

In my initial training I was banned from using MSFS for landing practice by my instructor. It was teaching me bad habits.

The way MSFS behaves on the edge of the flight envelope (incipient stall, flare etc) is not modeled at all well. For example in my version of MSFS the default Cessna tended to nose up severely with stick back pressure even when about to stall - hence you learn to avoid excess back pressure when landing in MSFS. On the other hand the actual Cessna I trained in required to pull the yoke very firmly back almost to your chest as you flare.


PROs
****
MSFS is excellent practice for navigation, some IFR. With trackIR enabled, it is even good for practicing VFR circuits and approaches. its good for getting the hang of steering with your feet on the ground.


CONS
****
I would not recommend it for final landings or stalls and spins, its my opinion that the 109 in IL2 actually lands more like a Cessna than the "Cessna" in MSFS.

TX-EcoDragon
11-09-2008, 08:20 PM
Agreed. . .

You can use MSFS for a procedural trainer, especially if you have guidance from a flight instructor, or at least a current pilot, plus appropriate textbooks/ground school materials.

Just getting the sim could very well cause you to spend time doing things incorrectly and building bad habits that you will only have to unlearn when the time comes to do it "for real".

The included lessons are not appropiate to the rating/certificate level they claim to be for, and nothing like the actual lessons you would have for Private, comercial certificates etc - so don't bother much with those.

I have used FSX as an aid with student pilots, but only for things like navigation, communications, and limited maneuvers demonstrations. Some addon aircraft are pretty good provided you avoid the edges of the performance envelope. . .but of course that is much of what you must do when learning to fly.
Once you are an experienced pilot they become more useful - you can use them accurately, and get reasonably appropriate results in the IFR environment etc.

Organizations such as VATSIM.NET are a good way to get semi-realistic ATC (the main problem is the lack of enough controllers to actually simulate Clearance Delivery
/Ground/ Tower/Departure/ Approach/Center controllers etc and there isn't near enough other traffic out there. There are also not that many people using self announce procedures as you would find at an uncontrolled airport. That said, if you find a well staffed area, the controllers are trained very well, and will simulate the experience of flying and communicating in controlled airspace quite well.

In summary, yes, you should get it - you already fly sims, so you will already have areas of bad habits, but that shouldn't be too big of a problem as long as you don't go into it thinking that your time in IL-2 has any real bearing on real world flying. You should also get the appropriate private pilot textbook for your location, and ideally find a mentor or instructor who can give you a little guidance.

There are books out there on this very subject.

If nothing else, send me a PM and I'll be happy to help get you set up as best I can (though my familiarity is with aviation in the US).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
Had a trial lesson today, in recent weeks I've been thinking about turning this into a career but wanted to leave it until I'd actually flown one to see if I even had the basics, which I did, found it quite natrual too.

Now I'm aware how expensive it is to get your commercial licence, so I'm trying to work out how to save the cash over the next few years and then go to Canada and start from scratch and do the whole thing in a oner.

Now my question is, I play a lot of off line IL2 with an MS FFB stick, and was wondering if getting a copy of the latest MS Flight Sim and good set of controls, rudder pedals, throttle stick etc,track IR would using this help in just brushing up on the basics, or are they too much of a game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't fly anymore but used to do a bit of mucking about in GA stuff a few years back.

Good luck with it as a career !!!

In my initial training I was banned from using MSFS for landing practice by my instructor. It was teaching me bad habits.

The way MSFS behaves on the edge of the flight envelope (incipient stall, flare etc) is not modeled at all well. For example in my version of MSFS the default Cessna tended to nose up severely with stick back pressure even when about to stall - hence you learn to avoid excess back pressure when landing in MSFS. On the other hand the actual Cessna I trained in required to pull the yoke very firmly back almost to your chest as you flare.


PROs
****
MSFS is excellent practice for navigation, some IFR. With trackIR enabled, it is even good for practicing VFR circuits and approaches. its good for getting the hang of steering with your feet on the ground.


CONS
****
I would not recommend it for final landings or stalls and spins, its my opinion that the 109 in IL2 actually lands more like a Cessna than the "Cessna" in MSFS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TheGozr
11-10-2008, 12:04 PM
its my opinion that the 109 in IL2 actually lands more like a Cessna than the "Cessna" in MSFS.

This is what i said for a long time Il2 is a different variants of Cessna like FM.. or Boat like.

Sirrith
11-10-2008, 12:17 PM
I'm a glider pilot (pre-solo) and I have to say IL2 and FSX did help me understand the basics and some theory, but I wouldn't trust them for anything else.

TX-EcoDragon
11-10-2008, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sirrith:
I'm a glider pilot (pre-solo) and I have to say IL2 and FSX did help me understand the basics and some theory, but I wouldn't trust them for anything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should get Condor - it's Awesome!!

http://www.condorsoaring.com/

S!
TX-EcoDragon
http://www.txsquadron.com

http://www.iac38.org

M_Gunz
11-10-2008, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
You should get Condor - it's Awesome!!

http://www.condorsoaring.com/

S!
TX-EcoDragon
http://www.txsquadron.com

http://www.iac38.org </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, that's incredible looking and ... trains with fewer bad habits? LOL!

I notice the output set up for external aids, even sim box possible it looks like?
Haven't looked at the prices though.

PhantomKira
11-10-2008, 09:46 PM
FS is good for Instrument work, that's about it. I wouldn't trust it for VFR, or for touch and goes.

Stingray333
11-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Yo, kind of an un-related question, but I think it belongs in this thread. With the upcoming release of DCS: Black Shark, I am wondering: can you fly reasonably well in helicopter sims with the typical stick/throttle/rudder combo we in the fixed-wing flight sim community are used to? Or do you really need a collective to fly well?

I have no idea what the collective is or does, but with DCS Black shark hopefully to be released in North America in the near future, I am beginning to wonder about these things

Stingray

TX-EcoDragon
11-11-2008, 12:47 AM
Well, you can get by with the HOTAS just fine really. There are some interesting mods you can get for the Cougar and Saitek sticks that feature a collective.

http://www.leftside-limited.com/

WhiteKnight77
11-11-2008, 12:47 AM
The collective is what makes the helo go up and down.

There is a swashplate on helos that turns control motion into a blade action. If you pull up on the collective, you push the swashplate up giving all blades the same angle of attack so the bird can rise. If you push forward on the cyclic stick (the typical control stick between your legs), pushes on the back of the swashplate to give the blades more angle of attack on the back of the rotordisk for forward flight and vice versa for backwards flight. For turns, the opposite side of the swashplate is pused up depending on which way you push the cyclic stick. Rudder pedals increase or decrease the angle of attack on the tail rotor swashplate (or pushes up on the opposite side of the swashplate depending on which rudder pedal you press in a dual rotor helo like a 46 or 47 for the front rotor and the same side for the rear) for pedal turns where you rotate around the center axix of the bird.

This pic of a MH-53 from HM-14 shows the angle of attack of helo blades as well as the swashplate underneath the rotorhead.

http://www.whiteknight77.net/images/hm14thumb.jpg (http://www.whiteknight77.net/images/hm14.jpg)