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View Full Version : For the Sake of Fairness.........



LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 06:25 AM
Hi All;

My recent posts on the new FM have been as I've clearly stated simply based on feel and experience "here" not in r/l as I have always made it clear......To be blunt, 4.02 has been absolutly unflyable, the bouncing when up to speed rediculous at best and so dramatic that I cannot imagine any fighter Sim or R/L wise being so.

HOWEVER.......I have read a couple posts where folks are discussing though their stick profiles have not changed in the config.ini, after adjusting it, recalibrating the stick, to even replacing the config.ini they suddenly found relief.

So till I have time to try all of that out, in the sake of fairness I need to recant all of my statements as there is nothing unreasonable about settings going wonky on a new patch even when not visible and my statements were harsh due to the extreme nature of the dramatic change.

In kind I'd also like to make a request for help.

That request being is anyone else finding this situation?.....If so were you able to resolve it and how?

Thanks for your help and attention.

Kelly

nakamura_kenji
10-19-2005, 06:31 AM
yes do i use basic standard stick setting always have best found for most situations so just keep normal.

now find plane very senstive little movement, very much notice when do speed test hard keep plane form moving outline. but on when come fly plane limit on i found very much easy there no feel ride on edge stall like before v_v.

it was much noticble level off climb vertical ki-61-I-otsu 90mph before i have much balence plane stall now fly easily feel odd

FlatSpinMan
10-19-2005, 06:31 AM
This is the internet!There is no place here for reasonableness and decency! The nerve!Mods, ban her!!!

(Sorry, I have nothing useful to contribute but I do admire your character for posting this, we need more of this.)

=========================

Lucius_Esox
10-19-2005, 07:25 AM
Agree with you LEBillifish,
I am also beginning to wonder about my settings. There are some like us who are reporting it as almost unflyable while others are reporting things smoother.

I tried again last night online and pretty much the same experience. This time I flew as smooth as I know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yeah ok it might not be as smooth as some but, jeeeez kid gloves or what..

My instalation could probably do with a re-install so I'm gonna try that. Incidently (and I dont think this is it) I was one of the one's who installed the non merged patch first???

We'll see

LEXX_Luthor
10-19-2005, 08:49 AM
Always keep a backup of settings file before every Patch. Backups help if you re~install too.

But you don't ever have to actually re~install if you keep a complete UnPatched PF 3.0 backup folder -- store all your Patches in the backup game folder, but don't run the Patches there ( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif ), copy the Patches to your play folder and run the Patches there, then Delete those Patches (they are still in your backup game folder).

If I recall, the most needed backups are...

Skin folder (ever lost that?)
Users folder (simple way of saving all settings files in Users folder)
Mission folder

several files in basic FB/PF game folder...

"Conf" file ... grafix settings
"rcu" file ... command settings
"bldconf" ... FMB settings

Once I lost my FMB, I just got a blank blue screen and could not exit FMB unless re-start computer. I finally traced it to "bldconf" file which was fully corrupted with bizzaro ASCII characters instead of text. Keep a backup.

If you have complete UnPatched PF 3.0 backup game folder, then you can just keep your backups in there as normal. Play from Patched play folder.

BaldieJr
10-19-2005, 09:08 AM
1X=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80
1Y=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80

sunflower1
10-19-2005, 09:22 AM
For the life of me I couldn't figure out what Seafire and Billfish were talking about, its good to know that THAT problem should be solvable.

My question: where do I get a quarter slot to install in an empty 3.5" drivebay?

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
1X=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80
1Y=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80

can't be the issue as I'm flying;
1X=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1Y=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1RZ=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0

so at little input should be less responsive.

Loki-PF
10-19-2005, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Hi All;

My recent posts on the new FM have been as I've clearly stated simply based on feel and experience "here" not in r/l as I have always made it clear......To be blunt, 4.02 has been absolutly unflyable, the bouncing when up to speed rediculous at best and so dramatic that I cannot imagine any fighter Sim or R/L wise being so.

HOWEVER.......I have read a couple posts where folks are discussing though their stick profiles have not changed in the config.ini, after adjusting it, recalibrating the stick, to even replacing the config.ini they suddenly found relief.

So till I have time to try all of that out, in the sake of fairness I need to recant all of my statements as there is nothing unreasonable about settings going wonky on a new patch even when not visible and my statements were harsh due to the extreme nature of the dramatic change.

In kind I'd also like to make a request for help.

That request being is anyone else finding this situation?.....If so were you able to resolve it and how?

Thanks for your help and attention.

Kelly


Kelly,

I'm confused (OK thats normal!)...I thought your first post on 4.02 was that things were *too* stable and smooth. Now not?

Scen
10-19-2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Hi All;

My recent posts on the new FM have been as I've clearly stated simply based on feel and experience "here" not in r/l as I have always made it clear......To be blunt, 4.02 has been absolutly unflyable, the bouncing when up to speed rediculous at best and so dramatic that I cannot imagine any fighter Sim or R/L wise being so.

HOWEVER.......I have read a couple posts where folks are discussing though their stick profiles have not changed in the config.ini, after adjusting it, recalibrating the stick, to even replacing the config.ini they suddenly found relief.

So till I have time to try all of that out, in the sake of fairness I need to recant all of my statements as there is nothing unreasonable about settings going wonky on a new patch even when not visible and my statements were harsh due to the extreme nature of the dramatic change.

In kind I'd also like to make a request for help.

That request being is anyone else finding this situation?.....If so were you able to resolve it and how?

Thanks for your help and attention.

Kelly

I'm with you a 100 percent on this one. I noticed the same observations you made in the FM thread.

Interesting this post is very close to my conclusion. Clearly I need to fly more but I think the older Joystick settings might be a problem. Of course I will have to test it out.

Off the cuff I like 4.01 better. I will give it a week or so before I form a full opinion.

Scendore

BaldieJr
10-19-2005, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
1X=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80
1Y=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80

can't be the issue as I'm flying;
1X=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1Y=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1RZ=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0

so at little input should be less responsive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have no filtering. You also allow your stick to hit 100% deflection. Try last 4 numbers 73 73 73 25. If that helps, tweak the last number more to your liking (I use 80 filtering because I always over-react).

dieg777
10-19-2005, 10:25 AM
here are mine

1X=0 27 38 52 63 69 75 83 85 95 100 0
1Y=0 28 44 55 62 70 79 88 85 95 100 0
1RZ=0 3 5 11 15 25 38 56 75 90 100 0

these are for a saitek x-45

the rudder is still too sensitive and needs toned down - cant say Iv noticed a big difference in the new patch - have flown me 109E and G6 A/s; fw 190 D; spitfire IX and hurricane and snap stalls arnt so easy now is the only main thing I can put my finger on.

for a challenge here are captain browns settings that he felt replicated the feel of real aircraft- this was for an old patch but you could give them a bash if you want

pitch 0,1,3,7,9,14,18,23,27,33
roll 0,0,1,2,3,4,6,10,12,17
yaw 0,0,1,2,5,6,8,11,14,16

captain brown was a test pilot who flew british and captured luftwaffe planes and someone let him loose on fb and these were his settings

good luck

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
1X=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80
1Y=0 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80

can't be the issue as I'm flying;
1X=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1Y=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0
1RZ=0 3 10 18 27 37 48 60 73 87 100 0

so at little input should be less responsive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have no filtering. You also allow your stick to hit 100% deflection. Try last 4 numbers 73 73 73 25. If that helps, tweak the last number more to your liking (I use 80 filtering because I always over-react). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the point, it's not in my reactions....In fact I find it almost impossible to stall now......It's when I'm giving little to no input that it jumps all over. When in a hard manuever it's smooth.

crazyivan1970
10-19-2005, 10:33 AM
I am not experiancing any wobbling or jumping.. I am not sure how to help in this situation.. i`ll just post my stick settings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ms ffb2

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 39 52 60 66 71 77 82 88 94 100 0
1Y=0 31 44 58 69 76 79 84 91 96 100 0
1RZ=0 35 44 54 60 68 74 85 89 97 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Loki-PF:
Kelly,

I'm confused (OK thats normal!)...I thought your first post on 4.02 was that things were *too* stable and smooth. Now not?

No, my first comments were that & still are till I figure this out were that the plane would react as though G forces/drag/stalls/loss of E/etc. had no to little effect.......IOW you could slam back on the stick in a hard climb and never feel a stall coming on almost instantly regaining all engine torque & E....Rolls, climbs, turns, any manuever simply pull it and go without negative effect.....

However what is driving me really nuts is the fact that when I have E, am up to speed, adding little input having trimmed and lined up on my target.......The plane jumps all over as though I'm in the worst turbulance we have.

SO..........With that in mind I'm wondering if my stick is not jiving with the new patch software.....The sim seeing no to little movements as little violent jerky motions. Naturally try and add a slight input to correct and it only amplifies it.

So two different issues. One relating to feel/sensing what is happening to your plane...The second jerking all over with little input.

Yet when I fix the one, the other might come around as well.

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 10:37 AM
Thanks for the stick settings guys but I'm positive that's not it........Mine much more conservative then all of yours.......It's the sim reacting to the stick....

Cadet_Bobo
10-19-2005, 10:44 AM
I found using this utility "IL-2 Sticks" and selecting "curved" for elevator and rudder worked nice for my old Microsoft Sidewinder FF
http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#087

Might be helpfull

Scen
10-19-2005, 10:44 AM
Which Flight Stick are you using?

BerkshireHunt
10-19-2005, 11:29 AM
Billfish,
I don't know if you're using a force feedback stick - I am: a Logitech Wingman Force 3D. So far, I'm finding the game almost unplayable (certainly unenjoyable) with force feedback enabled.
In 4.01, the ground effect turbulence was, frankly, ludicrous. The stick would thump repeatedly and with complete regularity at 0.5 second intervals - bang, bang, bang, bang - presumably to indicate that you were experiencing buffeting near the ground.
In 4.02m that has gone completely - to be replaced with sporadic jerks about 20 seconds apart characterised by a violent buzzsaw vibration of the stick and a sudden jerk forwards (it's always nose down). This happens at any height, not just near the ground.

The point I'm making is that these effects seem hard coded into the FM, they don't seem to have much correlation with joystick input or filtering. I assume they are meant to indicate buffeting linked to angle of attack and flight speed but if so, they're horrendously overdone.

I can't use force feedback at all with this patch (if I did I'd get vibration white finger) and I'd be interested to know if any of the beta testers had such a stick.
There's something strange about the FF implementation because the stick starts jerking about long before a mission is 100% loaded - and that never happened with 4.01.

Right now, unless I'm missing something, it seems like a very cheesy attempt at adding simulated turbulence. If you fly without FF you simply see your aircraft's nose wobble at odd intervals - but I get that plus the stick goes crazy.
Yes I've recalibrated, yes, I've cut and pasted over a fresh conf ini.

I'd like to think that a wrong version of the patch has been released but that seems unlikely.
So far, I can't think of anything good to say about it...

dagenham_dave
10-19-2005, 11:39 AM
i find nothing wrong with the flight model, it would seem to fly quite well actualy, i will be able to test dive rates against other a/c soon, but it would seem that different a/c have different weights?
stick needed no recalibration.

civildog
10-19-2005, 11:53 AM
I have an Evo Cyborg and have tried all the seetings imaginable, replaced the config w/ the old one, even reinstalled the whole mess again with no improvement.

Some practice has helped a little but the biggest frustration is that same that Billfish describes: small movements cause way too much wobble. Even at full speed and fully laden with fuel you get the same ridiculous wobbly nonsense unless making gross movements of the stick.

And yeah, I've noticed the same thing with stalls: it's all but imossible to enter a turning stall in most planes. I flipped a Cobra around so hard at one point it rolled right over like it was a Mustang. Only effect was the thing was shaking and rattling like mad - - but it didn't enter the flatspin or tumble it used to.

This is nuts. With every patch this stuff changes too much, back and forth, I no longer have any trust in the flight models or the damage models because there is no consistancy in any of it. 4.01 seemed just fine except for some damage modeling. The flight model was great, the planes had heft to them, and turn stalls happened.

BaldieJr
10-19-2005, 12:07 PM
filtering

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Scen:
Which Flight Stick are you using?

Logitech Extreme 3d Pro......and before a stick debate develops let me just say I bought this after my 6 year old MS SW PP died. Compared all the sticks out there with a twist for rudder, and this stick was the most solid of the bunch.

HOWEVER.......If other Logitech users are experiencing the same problem, that will say a lot......Not that the sticks are bad, or the patch, just simply they aren't playing well together and we need to find out how to resolve it........

and no buying a CH/Saitek/etc. is not the answer.

BaldieJr
10-19-2005, 12:11 PM
i said
filtering

hamselv2
10-19-2005, 01:12 PM
CrazyIvan said:
'I am not experiencing any wobbling or jumping.. I am not sure how to help in this situation'.

For CrazyIvan: you mention that you dont experience any wobbling. I can also find planes in 4.02 that DONT wobble - e.g. Zero and P38L Late.
The problem is that I can easily find one that does, and that's my favorite plane:
Spitfire 9c LF CW. As I have stated in another thread I use a Microsoft Forcefeedback 2 Pro USB stick, with maximum forcefeedback. When I see people stating that they do or dont experience the wobbling it would be very useful if they mentioned what planes they had flown.
If someone says: 'I dont feel any wobble' and he has only flown a Zero I wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but if he says that there was no wobble in a 4.02 Spit9c LF CW I would be very interested - both in what stick he was using, and perhaps even the slider settings for the joystick. My own stick settings are those that I've used in 3.04 and 4.01, and they can't seem to make that Spitfire fly in combat. I still haven't tested other settings for sliders or forcefeedback.

lowfighter
10-19-2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by hamselv2:
CrazyIvan said:
'I am not experiencing any wobbling or jumping.. I am not sure how to help in this situation'.

For CrazyIvan: you mention that you dont experience any wobbling. I can also find planes in 4.02 that DONT wobble - e.g. Zero and P38L Late.
The problem is that I can easily find one that does, and that's my favorite plane:
Spitfire 9c LF CW. As I have stated in another thread I use a Microsoft Forcefeedback 2 Pro USB stick, with maximum forcefeedback. When I see people stating that they do or dont experience the wobbling it would be very useful if they mentioned what planes they had flown.
If someone says: 'I dont feel any wobble' and he has only flown a Zero I wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but if he says that there was no wobble in a 4.02 Spit9c LF CW I would be very interested - both in what stick he was using, and perhaps even the slider settings for the joystick. My own stick settings are those that I've used in 3.04 and 4.01, and they can't seem to make that Spitfire fly in combat. I still haven't tested other settings for sliders or forcefeedback.

Good point, the zero or F2M don't wobble too much, a different affair with spits, corsairs.
Well, probably we will adapt...till next patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

F19_Orheim
10-19-2005, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
i said
filtering

Could you elaborate that Baldie mate, explaining how this works as if I was a 5 year old?

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-19-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
i said
filtering

Could you elaborate that Baldie mate, explaining how this works as if I was a 5 year old? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesnt filtering smoothen out the curve you have set for stick input, if so how much is required?

ive used filtering but all it did was making the response of my stick input slower ingame but it didnt make the aircraft movement smoother

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 02:08 PM
filtering (I believe) reduces the little spikes that makes the game think the stick is being lightly twitched.....Yet is normally only applied to older sticks.

LeOs.K_Walstein
10-19-2005, 02:16 PM
I`d like to say that I have no problems at all. I think that the new FM tends to make the aeroplane sway more or less slightly, but I don´t find it difficult at all. I don´t feel it is exaggerated or anything! My joystick works well! I did not calibrate it or anything (after having installed the patch).

I`m using "Logitech Extreme 3D Pro".

I hope you can solve your problems
Wallstein

Jagdgeschwader2
10-19-2005, 02:34 PM
I just patched up and I can see no problems with the handling at all. Perhaps it does come down to control setups. I'm using CH products all the way and I'm solid as a rock. In fact I have to say I like this new FM. Elevator trim now works
great for me. Set it and forget it almost. I was a bit worried after reading all the posts here but no problems so far. Off to do more testing. Oh and I use the default stick settings.



http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s.jpg

hamselv2
10-19-2005, 02:59 PM
I've now flown online approximately 1 hour in a Spit Mk5b LF CW, and it's as ROCK STEADY as in 4.01 ! When comparing to the bouncing Spit Mk9c LF CW (see my reply earlier in the thread) there is a BIG difference.
As I've seen other 4.02 planes being 'non wobbling', my observations lead me to the conclusion that it's only SOME particular planes that have had their flight model changed in a way so that they wobble. I think that it's not the joystick sensitivity in general that has been changed.

Airmail109
10-19-2005, 03:13 PM
What wobble? your just all **** pilots, and Ive noticed bugger all difference between 4.01 and 4.02....I can still send 190s down like flies in my MKIII....your just a bunch of fools whining about stuff that hasnt been altered....placebo effect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

"quote:
Originally posted by effte:
And the reason for yaw when rolling (adverse yaw) is, of course, that a wing generating lift generates drag. As you deflect the ailerons, one wing generates more lift, hence more drag - and then yaw.



Yes! Because of this the rising wing will slow down somewhat, and the dropping wing will accelerate if the pilot doesn't counter this with rudder. As it is adverse yaw is still less pronounced in the sim than in most real world aircraft that require substantial rudder pressure in particular when making abrupt aileron inputs to the left and right. Adverse yaw is the primary reason we have a rudder on aircraft, to "coordinate" the rudder with ailerons in effect means applying rudder pressure in the direction of turn during the time the ailerons are deflected."

go figure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

TheGozr
10-19-2005, 03:25 PM
LEBillfish
If you need help you can jump into Our PROWAR comms. I can help you ,Just tell me.
This can be fix real quick with some test.

crazyivan1970
10-19-2005, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by hamselv2:
CrazyIvan said:
'I am not experiencing any wobbling or jumping.. I am not sure how to help in this situation'.

For CrazyIvan: you mention that you dont experience any wobbling. I can also find planes in 4.02 that DONT wobble - e.g. Zero and P38L Late.
The problem is that I can easily find one that does, and that's my favorite plane:
Spitfire 9c LF CW. As I have stated in another thread I use a Microsoft Forcefeedback 2 Pro USB stick, with maximum forcefeedback. When I see people stating that they do or dont experience the wobbling it would be very useful if they mentioned what planes they had flown.
.

Umm...pretty much every plane that is out there mate - had to. But were are not in the same situation. I don`t use FFB effects, never did. It makes stick too lose. I posted my stick setup above in this thread. Try them, see if it works out for you.

Woof603
10-19-2005, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:



and no buying a CH/Saitek/etc. is not the answer.

S! Billfish, I beg to differ, if I may (but on another subject this time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

I've been flying FBPF etc since Oct 2002, mostly offline, rarely on. I use CH throttle, stick and pedals at default settings and regardless of the patch I have never had any problems such as you and many others describe. I have never had to recalibrate, edit the ini
or make any other alterations as the patches changed. I'm an old R/L pilot, in more ways than one, (only ww2 era aircraft flown are the T6, C47/DC3 and Beech 18) and each new patch seems to bring to me a new level of realism. I've just spent the afternoon fooling around with 4.02 and all the suspect aircraft mentioned on the boards and each and every one performed as close to real life as I remember and imagined. I'm no ace or slick stick, believe me, so I have to believe it's the CH setup that's providing me with all this pleasure. This is not a paid endorsement http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

VW-IceFire
10-19-2005, 04:27 PM
Billfish: I had the same problem. It took some doing but I've got it fixed...try replacing (if you've got a backup) your config.ini with the 4.01 version. Also try recalibrating your joystick, creating a new pilot, and recreating your joystick settings.

Something gets buggered up with the patch process and I couldn't fly at all. It was like my joystick would send 100% movement value for 1% actual movement on the stick.

MLudner
10-19-2005, 04:49 PM
Well, so many things being subjective, I have no difficulties to report yet. I just spent my lunch hour in a Bf-109G10 tangling with an Ace La-7 and while it was a bit different (I can't quantify it yet) the 109 flew fine. In fact, I experienced an interesting moment during a really tight left turn behind the La-7 where due to the fact that I was verge of stall the wing would not raise until I kicked some right rudder and I actually perceived almost physically the sensation of the air pressure against my wing. I had not experienced that before in the game and that was pretty cool.
I use a Saitek X-52 with all settings at default. I don't screw with such things: I just learn how to fly 'em as they are.

Spectre_USA
10-19-2005, 04:53 PM
Interesting.

I am experiencing the same things in a Hurricane while flying the Battle over Britian
campaign. Absolutely no input from me, as I have it trimmed nicely, but the nose is
just all over the place. Up, down, left, right, just all over.

No placebo effect here, as I have not flown a single mission in any prop sim
in just about a year. It never was this weird when beta testing FB.

I honestly don't feel it's joystick thing, as I am applying zero input to
my X-45...

harryklein66
10-19-2005, 05:04 PM
I've had the wobbling problem too :/ and notice exacltly what IceFire said about the Joystick sensitivity (with 4.02beta4 and 4.02m and never with 4.01m ).
Nothing subjective here.
But adding filtering at ~40% of the slider,look's to have solve the problem (!?)

civildog
10-19-2005, 05:10 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif (That would be MLudner)

I noticed the same thing in other planes. Overall, this version doesn't just reward coordinated turns, but it seems to require it. Snap rolls are much more precise, too.

And rolls with the 190? Holy Toledo!, I thought I was in Falcon for a second, but that's the way I have read that they were.

Now I have to test the rolls in the other radial birds to see if they roll better to one side orthe other like they are supposed to.

MLudner
10-19-2005, 05:55 PM
I'm gonna take that "I'm with stupid" icon in my usual, good natured humor ....

LEBillfish
10-19-2005, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Woof603:
S! Billfish, I beg to differ, if I may (but on another subject this time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

I've been flying FBPF etc since Oct 2002, mostly offline, rarely on. I use CH throttle, stick and pedals at default settings and regardless of the patch I have never had any problems such as you and many others describe. I have never had to recalibrate, edit the ini
or make any other alterations as the patches changed. I'm an old R/L pilot, in more ways than one, (only ww2 era aircraft flown are the T6, C47/DC3 and Beech 18) and each new patch seems to bring to me a new level of realism. I've just spent the afternoon fooling around with 4.02 and all the suspect aircraft mentioned on the boards and each and every one performed as close to real life as I remember and imagined. I'm no ace or slick stick, believe me, so I have to believe it's the CH setup that's providing me with all this pleasure. This is not a paid endorsement http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.


Actually we almost were of the same mind (are you feeling an urge to wear a dress?).......Yet CH products is not the answer though no doubt a superior product........

The stick is not the problem, I've heard this same complaint now from many.......In kind though "filtering" may "relieve" the problem it still exists.......

Frankly, you should never have to adjust your stick set up "for the FM".....That in a way is a hedge or cheat to make due with less skills (which we all could acquire with practice so no one better).

Sticks should be set up to accomodate "your individual natural and habitual input errors"....Hence the low numbers near center, for the ever so slight movements we apply when not intending to. If you are "constantly" applying pressure 360degrees around the stick at all times to control it, you'll point blank wear yourself out in no time. So we adjust (or should) the inputs to accomodate for a gradual increase in sensitivity or result, so little corrections stay little......

Anywho, you're right in that you should NEVER have to change settings due to FM. I never have because of, I adjust them for my manner of manipulating the stick.

So if suddenly simply to make the plane fly right you must change settings.....Then that says there is a problem elsewhere. In this case from what some are saying it seems to be some minor corruption in the config.ini and settings/user files.

However, before I try those I'm going to try some maintenence software, just to see if some change can be discovered........

Would be curious to know though, did anyones config.ini change in any specific way?

Woof603
10-19-2005, 08:21 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEBillfish:

Actually we almost were of the same mind (are you feeling an urge to wear a dress?)

QUOTE]

A dress? No, but I have a closet full of fm pumps.

LEBillfish
10-20-2005, 01:53 AM
Brief update:

The problem once more was a constant minor in distance yet violent twitching of the plane in all axis....Imagine our rough turbulence yet constantly UNLESS you were on the verge of a stall/hard climb/hard turn.....Essentially generating excessive drag. When trimmed and up to speed flying level or diving......The plane jerked all over.

Can't say what step helped but something did considerably. Here are the steps I took (and mind you I discovered my 4.01 files had not copied to the CD well, couldn't even access it).

1. Ran norton WinDoctor & checked for any corrupt files/links/registry whatever...Found a few that linked to 4.02 yet were mostly Ubi based connections.

2. Ran various antivirus and spyware checks...nothing.

3. Renamed my config.ini, user files and directories, settings, etc.. Anything that we can change via inputs. Then after step 5 let IL2 rebuild them.

4. Checked Video & sound cards & their settings.

5. Deleted stick profiles.

6. restarted IL2 and let it rebuild. Reset new files to my settings which took using "Setup.exe" as well.

7. Made a new pilot.

8. flew QMB briefly just to run it not to check

9. Adjusted stick to maximum filter, flew briefly again....reset filters to 0.

10. "Copy & pasted old config and other file info into new files (simply erased contents of new and replaced it with old text).

11. Flew QMB after adjusting filter to max..

12. changed filter back to 0.


Result.......The violent jerking stopped. What is left is what I assume to be the sim and new FM. What I'm wondering is at this point seeing the difference and how the new FM is, is if it might not be in some way related to the radically changed "centering" of the plane when you release the stick. It's a much more violent movement then before. So perhaps something between my stick and that aspect of the FM were trying to accommodate each other.

Not a programmer so have no idea. Yet it would have been as though the stick sent a input/signal, and the sim tried to snap you back to center....Yet since you were still adding input, it would jerk back and forth in all axis.

One thing I noticed is speed dramatically improved.....ex. with problem plane would fly 390km/h max., same settings trim and so on, 430+ was easily obtained. What that tells me is that the control surfaces were actually moving creating drag....Just twitching mind you yet that enough to slow you down.

Not sure it's resolved, Yet is now flyable so can seriously look at the FM try and learn it then judge if a problem still exists.

dagenham_dave
10-20-2005, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
filtering (I believe) reduces the little spikes that makes the game think the stick is being lightly twitched.....Yet is normally only applied to older sticks.

and as most hardware is "old " after about 3 months, that makes"most" sticks require some kind of filtering, no???
i run X-45 with very slight filtering on the pitch, alsi put a slight "curve" on the roll axis aswel. works just fine.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

civildog
10-20-2005, 02:46 AM
OK, I won't whine as loudly now about the newest FM. I still don't like it because I still think 4.01's FM was better, and I am awfully tired of having to relearn this **** game every few months, and I still don't trust anymore that it's all that accurate since every patch has made too many back-n'-forth changes, but I think I've got the bouncing/wobble thing down to manageable levels.

I swapped out the config.ini with my old one from 4.01m and now it's much more flyable. I don't know why this is so, but at this point I'll take it because I have to. The touchiness to fine movements is still there, but not nearly as bad as it was. And I can get planes into turning stalls now.

The 190's aren't too difficult to kill now - if you can catch them. Same with the Heinkels, and Stukas. The damage models seem a lot more reasonable again. It does my heart good to once again be able to blow the wings and engines off Heinkels with the Cobra's cannon.

msalama
10-20-2005, 02:52 AM
...and I still don't trust anymore that it's all that accurate since every patch has made too many back-n'-forth changes...

You don't have to, you know, because things like this happen with beta SW. We're flying w/ BoB _beta_ FM now, which is something EVERY SINGLE ONE of us should remember...

PS. ...by which I don't mean that reasonable critique isn't a good thing. Of course it is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEBillfish
10-20-2005, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by dagenham_dave:
and as most hardware is "old " after about 3 months, that makes"most" sticks require some kind of filtering, no???
i run X-45 with very slight filtering on the pitch, alsi put a slight "curve" on the roll axis aswel. works just fine.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

no.........You're speaking of mechanical wear, and even with that my first and last stick a MS SW PP which is much cheaper then this new one ran fine for 6 years.

Dirt can affect pickups, but if it's clean, there is little to affect it's electronics other then new outside interferance. My guess is a stick is like most electronic things now a days....They don't gradually fade out/wear...they either die in a flash or start spitting and sputtering showing dramatic problems as circuts heat up or lose connections from bad welds and components.

msalama
10-20-2005, 04:12 AM
Hey, where are the "wambulance" pics???

Spectre_USA
10-20-2005, 09:37 AM
Thanks for updating this LEBillfish, it means there is hope.

Will follow your 12 step program and hope for the same results. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

civildog
10-20-2005, 03:09 PM
msalama
You don't have to, you know, because things like this happen with beta SW. We're flying w/ BoB _beta_ FM now, which is something EVERY SINGLE ONE of us should remember...

The more I've played this game the more I've realised in the last year that you are right about that...but...

...that may be fine and dandy to those of you who might like paying all the money and time this game has cost, but I resent being a playtester without compensation. I paid for a finished game, not a beta.

No, "getting" this game isn't compensation. I don't like having UBI/1C randomly change the game on me because they won't take the time to propery develop the thing BEFORE release. You know, doing that before releasing a game used to be the standard, and it was a mark of a bad developer to foist a game on th buyer and expect that the patches would make it ok, eventually.

I want the game I paid for, and no - I can't play that one now because I am forced o use the constant patches to play it online at all. I suppose if I didn't want to play online that would be a different story. But half the reason for purchasing the game was because it was an online game! Of course there must have been some fine print somewhere on the box that said the game would be constantly screwed with and I'd have to just put up with it because 1C/UBI was too lazy - or thinks I'm too stupid to care - to do it right the first time.

I've brought this up before: that I'd far prefer waiting the extra time to buy (that's right, I'd be more than willing to pay for the work) a complete product than to have this nonsense keep happening. If I want to be a playtester I'd sign up for it. I PAID for a PRODUCT, dammit.

As it is this will be the last thing I ever buy from this company. I'm not going to waste my time with BOB for two reasons: 1) Why the hell should I pay for it when I've been an involuntary member of the development team because they messed up the game I already paid for by turning it into a testbed for BOB? 2) If this is any indicator of how this company develops it's products then God help us all when the patches start rolling in for BOB.

LEBillfish
10-20-2005, 04:06 PM
Well this "Bob Beta Guinea Pig" debate I find simply silly..........We whine, gripe, bi*ch, demand, more more more, now now now, gimme gimme gimme........A beta comes out, what does 90% of the community try to do?...."get their hands on it".....Naturally the great "whens the patch/what's in the patch/why are you with holding the patch threads are legendary".....

The devil with a cattle prod couldn't keep 99% here......Mostly those now complaining about being 'Bob Beta Testers" from volunteering to be full fledged Lab Rats to test the plague.....In fact, it's many of the same that constant;y pester to be made Beta Testers.



Personally I feel it is purely out of generousity that 1c gives us 90% of what we get, which is more then we deserve as we already got what we paid for........So you get something for free and you now say you're abused?

I'm grateful for the generous efforts of 1c and them kindly letting us in on their work........Then again, I'm not an ingrate.

For those that don't see it as a generous gift........

Pshaaawww.....

civildog
10-20-2005, 04:32 PM
"Gift" my hind end. This isn't sourgrapes, I'm a customer not some Maddox sychophant singing 1C/UBI's praises for allowing me to play their wonderful experimental game.

It would be "generous" of 1C/UBI to screw with the game I paid for if they the provided the "gift" as a side game to be played for free if I provided feedback on it, or as a demo, and left the core game alone. That way those people like you who think this ludicrous seesawing is just fine can play with all the wonderful free demos and experimental code, and the rest of us can get on with enjoying the game we paid money for.

It's not "generous" at all to expect me to put up with the constant patching because they can't finish screwing with it - or can't get it together enough to produce a finished product the first time. That's just shoddy workmanship. They want to provide a full-on comlete upgrade (not "patch" that's old programmingspeak for "fix" so it's a joke the way it's applied now) at a fair price - fine. If I like it, I'll buy it.

Not even Microsoft pulls this kind of ****.

msalama
10-20-2005, 04:49 PM
Not even Microsoft pulls this kind of ****.

They don't. You're right.

But then again we've a situtation of you being very harsh with your criticisms and the others being pretty mild. Which means... yeah, what?

-HH-Quazi
10-20-2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by CivilDog:
"Gift" my hind end. This isn't sourgrapes, I'm a customer not some Maddox sychophant singing 1C/UBI's praises for allowing me to play their wonderful experimental game.

It would be "generous" of 1C/UBI to screw with the game I paid for if they the provided the "gift" as a side game to be played for free if I provided feedback on it, or as a demo, and left the core game alone. That way those people like you who think this ludicrous seesawing is just fine can play with all the wonderful free demos and experimental code, and the rest of us can get on with enjoying the game we paid money for.

It's not "generous" at all to expect me to put up with the constant patching because they can't finish screwing with it - or can't get it together enough to produce a finished product the first time. That's just shoddy workmanship. They want to provide a full-on comlete upgrade (not "patch" that's old programmingspeak for "fix" so it's a joke the way it's applied now) at a fair price - fine. If I like it, I'll buy it.

Not even Microsoft pulls this kind of ****.

You do not appreciate the efforts of the developer to continually try to improve the game you paid $$$ for? To continue to offer more ac, maps, campaigns, etc., at no cost to you? I believe you have been around for quite sometime and remember all the extras we have recieved since Forgotten Battles was released, since the original was released for that matter. And you believe this is a bad thing?

arcadeace
10-20-2005, 05:36 PM
I€m not sure this should be seen as some sort of experimental guinea pig phase. 4.01 could be viewed as the next step in design to adequately continue an evolving process of improvement. After a while they could only adjust so much from the 3.xx patches and think of all the complaints if no further FM changes were done.

VW-IceFire
10-20-2005, 05:49 PM
Well despite fighting with things...I'm still very disappointed in the new FM.

I like the new weapons/DM tweaks, I like the new map, and I like the new cloud tweaks (much higher FPS) but I rather do not like the FM.

The inertia to rolls is gone...instant rolls now. Even in slow rolling aircraft..just feels too fast and too crisp. Not that I have any real basis of comparison.

Inertia to everything is gone really...you can power your engine on the ground and around the taxiway you go. It used to take a bit to get it rolling and that felt so good.

Aim is bloody hard because it twitches all over the place...despite the fact that I think I've fixed the worst of it...its still REALLY hard to keep control of. I tried some gunnery today and I missed alot...even easy dead 6 shots from .15 and I couldn't even center the crosshairs for long enough to sustain a burst.

I'm extremely frustrated at the moment...not sure what to do.

LEBillfish
10-20-2005, 06:47 PM
Ice fire, save a copy of your conf.ini and try my stick settings if you think you've fixed the out of control twitching......My settings still not helping that much, but I know they are much more conservative then most.

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 3 8 15 24 35 48 60 73 87 100 10
1Y=0 3 8 15 24 35 48 60 73 87 100 10
1RZ=5 3 8 15 24 35 48 60 73 87 100 10
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

civildog
10-20-2005, 08:29 PM
-HH-Quazi
...

You're right, I have been around a long time, since the original IL-2 - which I thought was just fine and superior in some ways to FB/PF.

But that doesn't invalidate my point: yeah, yeah, all the "free" goodies are great, but I would greatly appreciate it if the developers wuld not dribble out so many conflicting patch changes al ong with them.

I don't want to test the changes for them, I want to learn to play this game and enjoy it online and alone. If I have to wait longer for a whole new game or add-on, which I might even have to pay for....

...sound familiar? remember that this is what we all had to do with the original IL-2, I remember a lot of outrage from a lot of people then too...

...then I will wait for the improvements until then. But until then I don't want to keep having to go back and forth with this nonsense.

Which brings me to FoolTrottel:

Yes, they DO change MY game. If I want to play MY game as it is advertised (online) I am forced to put up with the experimentation by 1C/UBI. Which is the precise reason why so many people continue to play this game online in spite of the constant griping about the changes.

My point is that UBI/1C should just wait until they get the program developed the way they want, beta-testing it along the way with people who want to test it, not the paying customers who don't want to, and then release a finished product.

This is the sort of nonsense that makes an already marginal market even tighter. Flight sims aren't exactly breaking any shelves in the stores. If shooters did this with the customers then the companies wouldn't make them. We put up with it because this game is all there is on this subject and the company knows it and doens't really give a rip.

The last time I saw this kind of thing was with the Falcon franchise. I played every iteration, including the Mac and Amiga versions, but Falcon 4 killed it all. Flanker was far better.

Why? Flanker was a finished product that played when you loaded it. Flacon required equipment upgrades, patches, then more patches, and then after all that the company gave up on it because they said the customer base wasn't there.

No kidding, guys. The previous versions ran fine out of the box, didn't require computer upgrades, and cost less. Sounds a lot like the original IL-2 versus this mess. Jeez, UBI/1C doesn't even do us the courtesy of fully documenting all the changes, instead they know all of us will just figure it out and pass it along. The only reason they get away with it is because this is the only game available that can still (but only barely now) be called realistic.

I have Silent Hunter 3. Runs great no constant fiddling by the developers. I had the other versions, too, same thing. I have FarCry..same thing, pathces but the core game stays the same. The patches fix minor problems but don't force the game back and forth. Flanker was the same. Why is this one so messed up?

If the developer wants my money and support then I want a finished product in return. It's that simple.

VW-IceFire
10-20-2005, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Ice fire, save a copy of your conf.ini and try my stick settings if you think you've fixed the out of control twitching......My settings still not helping that much, but I know they are much more conservative then most.

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 3 8 15 24 35 48 60 73 87 100 10
1Y=0 3 8 15 24 35 48 60 73 87 100 10
1RZ=5 3 8 15 24 35 48 60 73 87 100 10
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
I tried it....unfortunately its worse than the settings I had...don't even understand why yet. But I couldn't even aim against a stationary ground target...too much bobbing of the nose up and down...and then a bit of rudder and its wobbling back and forth.

Tried all sorts of fighters...

LEBillfish
10-20-2005, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

I tried it....unfortunately its worse than the settings I had...don't even understand why yet. But I couldn't even aim against a stationary ground target...too much bobbing of the nose up and down...and then a bit of rudder and its wobbling back and forth.

Tried all sorts of fighters...

Did you try the steps I did?....

Xiolablu3
10-21-2005, 10:29 AM
I have got htis problem too, I updated the patch today and its appalling, the front end of the fighter is bobbing up and down with the slightest stick movement.

I use a MS Preciosion Pro attached to a gameport, and it was fine in 4.01.

Now its like a mass of overcompensating and shaking and wobbling along in all planes. I noticed it stright way in the first plane I flew, a 109F (a very stable plane in FB/PF).

Kills are a matter of luck now as to how much you can fight teh wobble.

I have been messing for an hour trying different joystick settings, very low to start even tried 1,2,4,6,8,12 etc and its still as bad. I think its something else.


Does anyone have a proper fix??

VW-IceFire
10-21-2005, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

I tried it....unfortunately its worse than the settings I had...don't even understand why yet. But I couldn't even aim against a stationary ground target...too much bobbing of the nose up and down...and then a bit of rudder and its wobbling back and forth.

Tried all sorts of fighters...

Did you try the steps I did?.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes...

I'm contemplating to maybe just junk the whole thing and reinstall the game after I clean every trace of it out...but I'm not sure if that will fix it or not.

rr9
10-21-2005, 03:30 PM
I think this bobbing is caused by rudder trim.

VW-IceFire
10-21-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by rr9:
I think this bobbing is caused by rudder trim.
Up and down bobbing of the nose...caused by rudder trim.

And if so...wouldn't trimming it out work? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
10-21-2005, 04:16 PM
Not sure if this will work but using your settings Billfish...this is my result:

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/Bobble109.TRK
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/Bobble47.TRK
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/BobbleSpit.TRK

LEBillfish
10-21-2005, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Not sure if this will work but using your settings Billfish...this is my result:

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/Bobble109.TRK
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/Bobble47.TRK
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/BobbleSpit.TRK


Just watched the p47 track....It's hard to tell from that hard moving action......Make a new one flying say a FW190A6...your opponent and empty loadout B17.....Trim, ger up to speed, get on his 6 and just stay there...break off and return to it again.

If like my problem at 100m zoom in and you'll note the sight (hence nose of the plane) will jump up and down & side to side so bad you'll not be able to lock on the target with it even at 50m.

Right off your track looks like you've not trimmed. But hard to say as you're right into a turning fight. If you have then my "guess would be" try resetting your trim controls (in the key mapper).....Then, if you use anything other then the keyboard for trim, delete the profile and make a new one for IL2.

Let me know what happens.

rr9
10-22-2005, 01:38 AM
If you have enough rudder trim, trying to compensate for it looks exactly like the movement in your P-47 track. If you've gotten rid of the problem by now, you can easily bring it back for a moment by just applying enough trim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MLudner
10-25-2005, 01:14 PM
Okay, now after more experimentation I still have not experienced this bobbing thing. I'm not saying y'all are making it up or anything; I'm trying suggest it might be something other than the patch FM changes. If it was that I believe I would be experiencing it as well. However, at the moment I have no definite ideas what it might be.
However; you might be over-controlling. Though yes; you are experienced in the game and flight simulations the shift in FM might require some readjustment; more some people than others. New pilots - and to this FM we are all new - tend to make that mistake to one extent or another. I was when training in an R-22 for my first 9 flight hours. Try adjusting the way you handle your stick.
Right now the FM in BoB 2 for 109E4's is driving me nuckin' futs and I just can't land one. I've gotten Spits and Hurricane's down, but not 109's. I figure it's me...