PDA

View Full Version : Late 109 impossible to blackout?



ECV56_MagOO
02-21-2005, 04:48 PM
Since original IL-2 I flew almost exclusively russian/allied planes, but now I have to learn to fly late 109 effectively beacuse a new western front campaign in my squad, the thing is, while test flying late 109 models I found out that is actually impossible to blackout with any of these planes, it isn't a bit odd? I mean, I can blackout with a SBD!!

BUT then again, I AM just learning to master these birds, maybe i am doing something wrong that prevents me to pull the G's required to pass out.
Any tips?
S!
Pato

ECV56_MagOO
02-21-2005, 04:48 PM
Since original IL-2 I flew almost exclusively russian/allied planes, but now I have to learn to fly late 109 effectively beacuse a new western front campaign in my squad, the thing is, while test flying late 109 models I found out that is actually impossible to blackout with any of these planes, it isn't a bit odd? I mean, I can blackout with a SBD!!

BUT then again, I AM just learning to master these birds, maybe i am doing something wrong that prevents me to pull the G's required to pass out.
Any tips?
S!
Pato

HeinzBar
02-21-2005, 05:33 PM
S!,
You may want to check your in-game settings. It is very easy to blackout/redout in any plane when pulling high G moves.

If you're not getting blackouts, then it must be your settings or stick profile (not adding enough deflection).

HB

Syama
02-21-2005, 05:43 PM
That's wierd because I swear I blackout easier in the 109 than other planes.

Tully__
02-21-2005, 05:49 PM
At high speeds you may need some nose up trim to help overcome the very high elevator forces the 109's suffer from. Without that aid you may not be able to turn hard enough to black out. The aircraft is certainly capable of blacking you out though provided the "Blackouts/Redouts" difficulty setting is turned on.

ECV56_MagOO
02-21-2005, 06:15 PM
Yep finally was able to black out in G-10 and G-14 BUT only with full elevator trim up, still trying with K-4, no luck yet.
BTW isn't strange such poor elevator response for a fighter plane? I mean, blackout is directly subordinated to the aircraft's ability of pulling High G's, is historicaly correct such a poor performance on late 109's?
S!
Pato

Bull_dog_
02-21-2005, 07:31 PM
Well you may open up a can of worms by asking that question...the 109 fans will say that it is inaccurate for the most part...I've read contradicting information. Based on what I've read, I think the turn rates and control effectiveness are pretty good...there is still a side of me that thinks it is a little too good at slow speeds....mainly G2.

Some things that I have read consistantly about the 109 states that it had poor control harmonization...by that I mean the rudder and ailerons were light and effective while the elevator was heavy. The 109 didn't like high speed, especially in thick air.

I just picked up a book written by a British test pilot who had the opportunity to fly all sorts of German aircraft, primarily after the war and was a top test pilot. He flies a 109G6 and wrote stuff that was pretty consistant with what I just said...he stated that at 400mph at like 10,000 ft (can't remember exactly but it was in thick air) the controls were almost locked...he said he wouldnt go any faster than 440 due to the heavyness....in addition, the cockpit is cramped which may or may not make it difficult to put as much into the stick and exagerate the elevator effectiveness.

All in all, the 109 has heavy elevators in game, it did in real life but I can't say if it is an accurate portrait of what it was really like....but from a standpoint of relativity I think it is good...I suspect the blackout can't be had at high speeds...but if you do a loop of 45 degrees, i'll bet you can black out...the only plane I really can't get a blackout in consistantly is the Lightning J model...but you can get a black screen if you do everything just right.

JG52MadAdler
02-21-2005, 08:16 PM
I wish
Check your settings.
You need a pillow and a drool bucket in the 109
You will be sleeping allot!

mortoma
02-21-2005, 09:20 PM
I read something on some website called "The myths of the 109" and that guy said it's a myth that it had heavy elevator forces. At least until 470 or so MPH. But Oleg made it lock up at only 470 KPH!!! Quite a bit slower than 470 MPH I'd say. So I think the Maddox crew got confused between metric units and imperial. Makes sense......

LeadSpitter_
02-21-2005, 09:21 PM
you can definatly blackout with the late 109s especially the 109k high speeds 700-890kmph without trim and even moreso with trim.

mortoma close that website and never open it again, the 109 had one of the smallest and worst elevators of any ac during the war.

AC that had a tighter sustained turn radius

f2a2
b239
p36
h75
h82
p40b c
p39
i16
i153
yak
la
hurricane
spitfire
ki43
ki44
n1k2 george
raiden
zeke
ki84
ki100

and many other.

The 190 is clearly the better ac, and the 109 was obsolete very early but had no choice to be used just like the

p40s
p39s etc

while they were tighter turning ac both low and high speed they were considered obsolete

by just these 3 factors

range
alt
speed

dont forget 80% of the inventory was the 109g6 and 190a8 in 1944-45

ECV56_MagOO
02-21-2005, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
you can definatly blackout with the late 109s especially the 109k high speeds 700-890kmph without trim and even moreso with trim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed!, I was trying in the 300-400Kph range with no blackouts, but high speed pullups do effectively knocks you out.
Thanks for the input

S!
Pato

HayateAce
02-22-2005, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
you can definatly blackout with the late 109s especially the 109k high speeds 700-890kmph without trim and even moreso with trim.

mortoma close that website and never open it again, the 109 had one of the smallest and worst elevators of any ac during the war.

AC that had a tighter sustained turn radius

f2a2
b239
p36
h75
h82
p40b c
p39
i16
i153
yak
la
hurricane
spitfire
ki43
ki44
n1k2 george
raiden
zeke
ki84
ki100

and many other.

The 190 is clearly the better ac, and the 109 was obsolete very early but had no choice to be used just like the

p40s
p39s etc

while they were tighter turning ac both low and high speed they were considered obsolete

by just these 3 factors

range
alt
speed

dont forget 80% of the inventory was the 109g6 and 190a8 in 1944-45 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, close this website made from a wood and never open again.

So Leadspitter, if you list the Ki84 as a tighter turner than the 109, you must add P51C to that list as well. The veteran Japanese pilot(s) that evaluated "Evalina," a captured and REPAIRED P51C stated that she would out turn their Ki84 Franks.

MEGILE
02-22-2005, 05:48 AM
I can blackout in the BF-109K4.
I just choose not to.

Vipez-
02-22-2005, 09:41 AM
here we go again leadspitter.. the famous 109 bad elevators myth..

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/


109 was famour to having not having special roll rate at high speeds, but it was not famour for having bad elevators. Infact it had better elevators than most planes. Period. Just because, its like so in the game does not mean it was so in real life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

AndyHigh
02-22-2005, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
mortoma close that website and never open it again, the 109 had one of the smallest and worst elevators of any ac during the war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truth hurts, huh? Few quotes:

Me 109 G:
- How difficult was it to control the 109 in high velocities, 600 kmh and above?
The Messerschmitt became stiff to steer not until the speed exceeded 700kmh. The control column was as stiff as it had been fastened with tape, you could not use the ailerons. Yet you could control the plane."
- Ky¶sti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

"-Many claim that the MT becomes stiff as hell in a dive, difficult to bring up in high speed, the controls lock up?
Nnnooo, they don't lock up.
It was usually because you exceeded diving speed limits. Guys didn't remember you shouldn't let it go over. The controls don't lock up, they become stiffer of course but don't lock. And of course you couldn't straighten up (shows a 'straightening' from a dive directly up) like an arrow."
- V¤in¶ Pokela, Finnish fighter ace and Me 109 trainer. 5 victories. Source: Interview of V¤in¶ Pokela by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.


So basically controls should "lock" only at a very high speeds. And "locking" here means that they were just very stiff, which required more power to use them. Use off elevator trimmer was needed in dives where speed was like 850 km/h and above. Ilmari Juutilainen (95 confirmed kills) writes in his book that he once dived with speed of over 1000 km/h (1100 km/h actually) and recovered just over tree tops while speed was still 900 km/h. He also claims that the factory limit was 950 km/h which means the plane shouldn't break below that speed.

Remember that these pilots were used to planes such as Brewster and Hawk-75, which were more like turn fighters, before they began to fly 109Gs.

JG7_Rall
02-22-2005, 11:09 AM
I think that the 109 elevator issue is a lot like hte P38 compression issue. Both of these aircraft's poor tendancies tend to be well documented and therefore way overdone. I think we can all agree that at higher speeds, the 109's elevator certainly became stiff and the ailerons were very, very stiff, just like we can all agree that the P38 did suffer from compression, like all other planes (albeit more so). However, it seems like the margin between the control lockup and compression of the 109/P38 (respectively) and other AC of the time is way overdone compared to what it would be in real life.

The 109 should have poor elevator authority at really high speeds, but it should still be controlable, much more so than in game. And right now, the K4 starts to lock up at 400 kph, which is rediculous. We also must remember that a lot of these claims about 109's locking up came from allied fliers who were used to good high speed maneuverability in their a/c.

heywooood
02-22-2005, 10:59 PM
Bf109's had a reclined seatback to reduce blackout effect...the pilot did not sit as upright, so the blood loss in positive G as well as excess blood flow to the brain in neg. G manoevers was significantly reduced. There was a reference made to this in a recent Flight Journal where Black 6 was flown and described in detail. The pilot was reclined to reduce the overall height of the fuselage to a minimum..just as the overall thickness or width was at a minimum..(pilots always refer to being very snug in the 109's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) After the Emil pilots noted that they suffered fewer blackouts than in other types - the seatback was reclined slightly further in later marks...

The method was copied in modern F-16 Viper...
...However - due to higher G loads in the F-16
the seat rake is greater and the side effect for fighter pilots is severe neck strain.

I've read that Viper pilots can have chronic neck pain for the long term if they have accumulated many hours in the F-16.

wayno7777
02-22-2005, 11:20 PM
Who the heck wrote that they set their feet on top of the pedals so they wouldn't black as easily. I think it was R.R.S. Tuck. Could've been Knoke, though.

MOH_MADMAN
02-23-2005, 12:19 AM
want to black out in a late 109?

booom down high speed and try to save the other 109 thats on deck and turnin like a spit. ohh yes youll black out for a bit o time for sure. best way to make kills w out black out in late 109...high deflction shots at short distance. gl

pourshot
02-23-2005, 01:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wayno7777:
Who the heck wrote that they set their feet on top of the pedals so they wouldn't black as easily. I think it was R.R.S. Tuck. Could've been Knoke, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spitfire had 2 positions for your feet on the rudder bar.