View Full Version : ta183 did fly?????????????

03-04-2005, 08:06 AM
i found this page just now


look at the picture in the bottom right hand corner. the ta183 looks too crisp to me but it does raise some questions

what do u think

03-04-2005, 08:06 AM
i found this page just now


look at the picture in the bottom right hand corner. the ta183 looks too crisp to me but it does raise some questions

what do u think

03-04-2005, 08:15 AM
IF the photo is real...this may explain it:

"Jigs and plans for the Ta 183 were seized from Focke-Wulf by Soviet occupation forces and delivered to the MiG design bureau. Six of the German designed jets were reportedly built from March 1946. The first Soviet Ta 183 flew, equipped with a British Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine, on 2 July 1947. These early test flights led to modifications of the original design. Wing fences and leading-edge slats were added, and the horizontal tailplanes were shifted lower on the fin. These changes addressed low-speed manoeuvrability and stalling speed issues. "

03-04-2005, 08:23 AM
Hmm....... thats interesting. I didn't really think that the Ta-183 flew, thought it just made it to development stages. I could be wrong though, many say that it where the idea from the MiG-15 came from, im sure we've heard it all, still a cool pic fact or fictio http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif !!!

03-04-2005, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
IF the photo is real...this may explain it:

"Jigs and plans for the Ta 183 were seized from Focke-Wulf by Soviet occupation forces and delivered to the MiG design bureau. Six of the German designed jets were reportedly built from March 1946. The first Soviet Ta 183 flew, equipped with a British Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine, on 2 July 1947. These early test flights led to modifications of the original design. Wing fences and leading-edge slats were added, and the horizontal tailplanes were shifted lower on the fin. These changes addressed low-speed manoeuvrability and stalling speed issues. " <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nice info but if you look clossly at the tail you can just make out a swastika & if the russians did fly it i would have thought they would have removed the swastika http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

03-04-2005, 09:04 AM
Sorry, the pic is a fake.

03-04-2005, 09:28 AM
check this out

I have seen photos of the ta-183 captured by the russians posted by soviet troops, Its the same place they got their tandum me163 from and many of the captured 262s. Im not sure if it ever flew and I think the data is still classified

03-04-2005, 09:41 AM
Ta-183 Huckebein

In late 1942, Focke-Wulf engineer Hans Multhopp headed up a design team that started aerodynamic studies for a new turbojet fighter. This culminated in 1945 as a fighter project known as "Huckebein" (a cartoon raven that traditionally makes trouble for others).On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities.

After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15.

03-04-2005, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CKY_86:
i found this page just now


look at the picture in the bottom right hand corner. the ta183 looks too crisp to me but it does raise some questions

what do u think <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If real it is probally from the work the russians did with the idea after the war. It clearly infulanced alot of the MiG15 design

03-04-2005, 11:04 AM
hey tagert, the photo i seen had german markings, I have no idea if it was airworthy. Maybe that was written to decieve the allies, there was a great deal in who got what scientists and technology between the allies. It makes no sense for russians to make prototypes and put german markings on one.

.Most of the germans surrendering wanted to go to the british or americans and specifically went west to surrender because of russian treatment to the german civilian and military forces. Many also fled to south america

03-04-2005, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
hey tagert, the photo i seen had german markings, I have no idea if it was airworthy. Maybe that was written to decieve the allies, there was a great deal in who got what scientists and technology between the allies. It makes no sense for russians to make prototypes and put german markings on one.

.Most of the germans surrendering wanted to go to the british or americans and specifically went west to surrender because of russian treatment to the german civilian and military forces. Many also fled to south america <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh.. well imho if it had German markings then it was problly edited or a fake pic? In that I dont recal them building a prototye to capture.. At least not one that was flyable.. But I could be wrong.

03-04-2005, 11:14 AM
That thing always reminds me of the SAAB J29.

03-04-2005, 12:28 PM
bump http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

03-04-2005, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Engrs:
That thing always reminds me of the SAAB J29. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The SAAB J29 is one wicked little jet.

03-04-2005, 01:37 PM
the only thing the Russians captured of the Ta-183 was research & drawings & blueprints & models

no Ta-183 ever made production

03-04-2005, 02:07 PM
That pic looks really fake and the parachute is kind of suspect. I don't know if the 183 was supposed to have one in real life but even if it was the pic definitely looks computer generated.

03-04-2005, 02:10 PM
Great site for color palettes by the way, good find http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

03-04-2005, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Engrs:
That thing always reminds me of the SAAB J29. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i'd say the Tunnan looks more like the Me. P.1100 rather then the Ta-183 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

03-04-2005, 04:08 PM
The picture is a fake - the plane's not covered with the same amount of "crisps" as the rest of the picture is.

The first jet that actually made it up into the air (designed by Prof. Kurt Tank) was a plane called "Pulqui" (built in Argentina).

Just as a sidenote: the grandpa of a friend of mine was a fighter pilot during WW2 (among JG26) - he knew Kurt Tank pretty well and was even offered to come with him to Argentina.

03-04-2005, 05:40 PM
spend hours looking thru my photos and its a Messerschmitt P.1101 not a ta183 but with a the same tail configuration


03-04-2005, 06:09 PM
Nope. Not as a German plane. An Argentinian version flew for a little while and the Russian MiG 15 although NOT directly influenced, looks similar.

That picture is most def. a fake.

03-05-2005, 12:12 AM

For a brief moment in the early 1950s, Argentina stood at the forefront of aviation development. The Pulqui series of jet fighters was a result of a bold undertaking envisioned to push the Argentinean industry into a completely new era. Alas, it was not to materialize.
The name Pulqui (meaning Arrow in the local Mapuche language) was actually used for two different aircraft, which had absolutely nothing in common except for the jet propulsion. Here's a brief history of these two projects.

IAe.27 Pulqui I
Immediately after the end of World War II, the Argentinean government opted for a rapid expansion programme of its Air Force. Under the government initiative, the Fábrica Militar de Aviones in C³rdoba (then called Instituto Aerotécnico) was encouraged to seek foreign contacts for the planned development of domestic jet aircraft.

In 1946, the factory commissioned the famous French aircraft designer Ӱmile Dewoitine (the same who gave his name to the French Dewoitine factory, and escaped from France to South America due to the German invasion). Dewoitine designed the first ever Latin American jet fighter, the IAe27 Pulqui I. The development progressed quickly and the prototype aircraft took off for the first time on August 9th, 1947 in the hands of Captain Osvaldo Weiss.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Pulqui I preserved in the Argentinean Air Force museum in Buenos Aires. </span>


It soon turned that Dewoitine's unquestionably wide experience with aircraft construction was not quite enough for the revolutionary new propulsion and the new aerodynamic challenges. His fighter was an all-metal tricycle-gear construction, but of conventional straight-wing design adorned by the unmistakably Dewoitine-shape fin that seemed a bit out of place on the high-speed airframe. Power was provided by a single rear-mounted Rolls-Royce Derwent engine.

During test flights the aircraft proved severely underpowered and had low overall performance. Coupled with complexity of maintenance and operation, the programme was abandoned and Dewoitine returned to Europe.

The Argentina's Air Force was not put off by this misfortune but continued to seek for another aircraft.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Nothing can better emphasize the technological difference between the Dewoitine and Kurt Tank designs than these two cockpit photos. Pulqui I left, Pulqui II right. </span>

The Argentina's Air Force was not put off by this misfortune but continued to seek for another aircraft.

Ta 183 goes to Argentina
In the post-war world, many qualified German personnel found their way to Argentina. The Argentinean government was quick to approach the arguably most talented of all German aircraft constructors, Dipl. Ing. Kurt Tank. Famous for the immortal Focke-Wulf Fw 190 / Ta 152 series of fighters, Tank was not slow to pick the chance of starting his professional life again. He managed to collect a large team originating from the Focke Wulf design bureau and established himself in C³rdoba in 1947.

Kurt Tank's assignment was to design a far better airplane than the Pulqui I. It had been decided from the beginning that the new fighter would be named the Pulqui II. For that Tank was very well prepared for the job. From the late 1944, his team had been working on a 2nd generation jet fighter for the Luftwaffe under the designation Ta 183 Huckebein. It was an advanced jet, extraordinarily compact in size and aerodynamically clean, sporting a 32º swept wing, and accomodating a Heinkel He S011A jet engine which would bring it to calculated maximum speed of 967 km/h at an altitude of 7000 meters.

Equipped with the invaluable aerodynamic research data from this project, all Tank had to do was to finalize his ideas and produce a prototype aircraft. What Tank didn't know was that the very same data were simultaneously worked upon in the Soviet Union for development of an aircraft that would eventually become MiG-15.

Like the MiG-15, the chosen powerplant for the Pulqui II was Rolls Royce Nene II. The Nene was more powerful than the He S011A but required a redesigned new fuselage with a larger cross-section due to it having a centrifugal rather than axial compressor. The resulting product was the IAe.33 Pulqui II.

The new fighter was a real beauty. The high-mounted negative-incidence wings were swept back 40º, even more than the Ta 183. The long fuselage was perfectly circular in section with the engine buried inside right at the center of gravity. The airframe was finished off with a graceful swept-back T-shaped tail. The pilot sat in a pressurized cockpit under a teardrop canopy. Armament would include four fuselage-mounted 20mm cannon. Contrary to the previous Dewoitine design, many elements incorporated into the Pulqui II were totally new in the fields of aeronautical construction, placing the Argentinean aero industry amongst the most advanced during those years.

IAe.33 Pulqui II
The first prototype - IAe.33 Pulqui II nº 1 - was actually an engineless glider, with the purpose of studying the aerodynamic behaviour of the airframe. Like all of his previous designs, it was Kurt Tank himself who test-flew the glider. After a series of tests, Tank arrived to the conclusion that the airframe showed no design flaws, and the construction of the powered prototype was ordered.

The first flight of the IAe.33 Pulqui II nº 2 took place on 16 June, 1950 with Osvaldo Weiss at the controls. The second flight which took place three days later was entrusted to ex-Focke Wulf test pilot Behrens. Kurt Tank also completed a good number of the test flights undertaken during the following weeks. The new aircraft proved successful in most respects, but like its "cousin" the MiG-15 it displayed some handling difficulties at the extremes of the flight envelope. Lack of operational range was another problem which wasn't solved until the fifth prototype.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">IAe.33 Pulqui II nº 5 </span>

Unlike the earlier prototypes which are believed to be painted silver with red trim, the nº 5 was white overall white with red arrow along the fuselage. The red colour also extended to wingtips, top of the fin and the entire horizontal plane. This aircraft had a modified wing as described in text.

While the testing program with nº 2 was taking place, two other prototypes were built, the Pulqui II nº 3 and nº 4, which were incorporated into the flight testing program in 1952. Disaster struck during a visit to the Cordoba factory by president Juan Domingo Peron, when Behrens crashed in the nº 3 during a demonstration flight and was instantly killed.

Pulqui IIe
The last prototype, nº 5, was a modified version to increase the operational range and wore a designation Pulqui IIe. It featured a reinforced "wet" wing containing two integral fuel tanks.

Meanwhile, the economic crisis that hit Argentina beginning in 1953 forced the slowing down of armament development programs. The high-cost high-profile Pulqui II project was halted, first temporarily, but the fall of Peron administration in 1955 meant it was never to recover. Kurt Tank moved on to another projects, first trying to return to Germany but then moving on to India. Most of his team ended up leaving Argentina to find work in the United States and other countries. Kurt Tank himself was not to return to his life and work in Germany until 1970s, where he died in 1983.

Today, the sole Pulqui I and the Pulqui II nº 5 are preserved at the Argentinean Air Force€s Museum in Buenos Aires.


03-05-2005, 12:16 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Messerschmitt Me P.1101</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">A side view of the P.1101 showing the placement of the </span>


powered by a single Heinkel-Hirth He S 011 turbojet
level speed of 1000 km/h (621 mph) at 7000 meters (22966 feet)
fuel capacity of 1000 liters (264 gallons), for 1/2 hour of sea level flying time
operate at altitudes of 14000 meters (45931 feet)
armed with four MK 108 30mm cannon
pilot protection from 12.7mm (.5 inch) from the front
pressurized cockpit

Engineer Hans Hornung, of Messerschmitt, began to create the first of the Me P.1101 single-seat, single jet engine fighter designs. Only nine days after the specification was issued by the RLM (July 24, 1944), the first Me P.1101 had taken shape on paper. The fuselage was short and wide, with two round air intakes on either side of the cockpit, which fed the single He S 011 jet engine which was located in the lower rear fuselage. 710 liters (188 gallons) of fuel could be contained above and below the turbojet. The wings featured two different sweepback angles, a steeper angle (40 degrees) near the fuselage and a shallower angle (26 degrees) outboard. Flaps were located over the entire trailing edge to aid in slow speed operations. Another 170 liters (45 gallons) of fuel could be carried in wing tanks located in each of the inner wing sections, making a total of 1050 liters (277 gallons). The V-tail unit (110 degrees of separation) was mounted on a boom that extended above the jet exhaust, a feature that would be present on all future Me P.1101 designs. A steel plate was used on the underside of the tail boom, to protect the enclosed radio equipment from engine exhaust heat. The nose wheel of the tricycle landing gear retracted to the rear and the two main wheels retracted forwards into the wing roots. A single SC 500 bomb could be carried, partially stowed in a belly recess. The main armament was to consist of two MK 108 30mm cannon, located in the lower forward fuselage sides.
The next Me P.1101 design dated from August 30, 1944. It was basically similar to the first design, but sleeker. The fuselage had a more pointed nose section, and was designed to hold a variety of armament. As in the first design, two circular air intakes, located on either side of the cockpit, fed the single He S 011 jet engine which was located in the rear fuselage. There were two protected fuel tanks above the engine and behind the cockpit that held 830 kg (1830 lbs) of fuel. The wing was "borrowed" from the Me 262 outer wing, was swept back at 40 degrees and mounted mid-fuselage. A V-tail was also to be fitted on this design, with the jet engine exhausting below the tail boom. The nose wheel retracted to the rear and rotated 90 degrees to lie flat beneath the weapons bay in the nose. Both main wheels retracted inwards towards the wing roots. Provisions were made for a drop tank, and even for a towed fuel tank using the V-1 wing! The armament was to be either a MK 112 55mm cannon or two MK 108 30mm cannons, with a possible third MK 108 or MK 103 30mm cannon being able to be squeezed in. One of the more advanced weapon proposals for this design variant of the Me P.1101 was for the upward firing SG 500 "Jagdfaust" (Fighter's Fist). This was basically a thin cased 50mm high explosive rocket propelled shell housed in a vertical tube. Two of these would have been placed in the fuselage nose, and a single SC 500 bomb could also be carried beneath the fuselage.
Even a ramjet powered P.1101 was proposed, the Me P.1101L (L for the Lorin ramjet). The fuselage was enlarged to accept the Lorin ramjet tube, and the undercarriage was kept simplified and low to the ground. Since a ramjet does not operate until a certain speed is reached, eight solid-propellant rockets with 1000 kp thrust each would be ignited to reach the ramjet's operating speed. Only a very short takeoff distance would be needed, but the aircraft's range would be limited, thus the Me P.1101L would have to be deployed near key Allied bombing targets.
After obtaining many differing results from a variety of wing profiles and fuselage shapes from windtunnel testing, Messerschmitt decided to actually build a full-scale, flying test aircraft. Since many of the components were already built (wing assembly, undercarriage, engine and controls), it was felt that the aircraft could be flying and giving more accurate test results in a relatively short time. There was no official backing from the RLM of Luftwaffe High Command for the construction of this test aircraft. On November 10, 1944, Engineer Hans Hornung brought the initial design phase of the final variant to a close by handing over all documents and design data to the Construction Bureau. The selection of the construction materials was begun shortly thereafter on December 4, 1944, with component manufacturing commencing under the direction of Mortiz Asam( who, after the war, helped design the Aero Spacelines "Super Guppy" for the US). A time-saving, yet risky approach was tried on the final version of the Me P.1101: Production was to run parallel with statistical calculations and with detail construction. Despite delays due to the worsening war situation and transportation of some of the components, construction slowly took place at Messerschmitt's Oberammergau complex in the Bavarian mountains of southern Germany. This complex was unknown to the Allies, and never suffered any bombing raids during the war. An experimental testing program was also being devised. It was intended to begin the test flights with the wing sweep set at 35 degrees, and later to try a 45 degree sweep, since the wing was designed to be set at different sweepback angles while on the ground. The first test flight was to take place in June 1945. Also, a combat version was also being developed from the research version then being constructed.
The Me P.1101 V1 was about 80% complete when the Oberammergau complex was discovered by American troops on April 29, 1945, a few days before the war's end. The fuselage was constructed out of duralumin, with space provided beneath the cockpit for the air duct. Located behind the cockpit and above the engine was the fuel supply of 1000 liters (220 gallons). The rear fuselage tapered down to a cone, where the radio equipment, oxygen equipment, directional control and master compass were mounted. The underside of the rear fuselage was covered over with sheet steel, for protection from the heat of the jet exhaust. Although a Jumo 004B jet engine was planned for the first prototype, the more powerful He S 011 could be added on later versions with a minimum of fuss. The wing was basically the same as the Messerschmitt Me 262 wing from the engine (rib 7) to the end cap (rib 21), including the Me 262's aileron and leading edge slats. A second wing assembly was delivered in February 1945, in which the leading edge slots had been enlarged from 13% to 20% of the wing chord. The wing covered in plywood, and could be adjusted on the ground at 35, 40 or 45 degrees of sweepback. Both the vertical and horizontal tails were constructed of wood, and the rudder could be deflected 20 degrees. Also under design was a T-tail unit and a V-tail also. The undercarriage was of a tricycle arrangement. The nose wheel retracted to the rear and was steerable. The main gear retracted to the front, and included brakes. The cockpit was located in the nose, with a bubble canopy giving good vision all around. The canopy was kept clear by warm air which could be drawn from the engine. Cockpit pressurization was to be incorporated in the production model, as was either two or four MK 108 30mm cannon. The production model was also to fitted with cockpit armor, and up to four underwing X-4 air-to-air missiles could be carried.
A few days before the Allied Army was expected to appear, Messerschmitt had all the engineering drawings, calculations and design work placed on microfilm and packed in watertight containers. These containers were then hidden in four locations in surrounding villages. On Sunday, April 29, 1945, an American infantry unit entered the Oberammergau complex, seizes a few documents, and destroyed much of what remained with axes. The Me P.1101 V1 incomplete prototype was also found, and pulled out of a nearby tunnel where it was hidden. Within a few days of the German capitulation, American specialists had arrived to assess the significance of the seized Messerschmitt complex. After questioning some of the Messerschmitt employees, it was learned of the missing documents. When the American team tried to recover these hidden microfilmed documents, they found that the French Army had already recovered some of the documents.
One of the men in the American research team was Robert J. Woods, of the Bell Aircraft Works. He and Messerschmitt chief designer Woldemar Voight lobbied for the completion of the Me P.1101 V1 prototype in June 1945. This proved to be impossible, due to the fact that most of the design documents were now in France (which they refused to share at this point in time), and other key information had been destroyed. The prototype was by now showing damage due to the rough treatment it had been receiving, such as sitting outside in the elements and even as a photographical curiosity for American GIs.
The Me P.1101 V1 was shipped to the Bell Aircraft Works in Buffalo, New York in August 1948. More damage was sustained when the aircraft fell off a freight car, which in effect ruled out any possibility for repair and flight testing. The P.1101 was fitted with an Allison J-35 jet engine, and mock-up weapons (6 x Mg 151 and 4 x MK 108 cannon) were pasted on the fuselage sides. Bell used the Me P.1101 as the basis for the X-5, during which individual parts of the P.1101 were used for static testing. Sometime in the early 1950s, the remainder of the Messerschmitt Me P.1101 V1 was sent to the scrap yard, thus ending this unique and distinctive aircraft's history.

03-05-2005, 12:19 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">X-5 Aircraft</span>



The X-5 was the first aircraft capable of sweeping its wings in flight. Its mission was to study the effect of wing-sweep angles of 20, 45, and 60 degrees at subsonic and transonic speeds. With the ability to sweep its wings from 20-degrees, for optimum low-speed handling qualities, all the way to 60-degrees for maximum high-speed performance, the X-5 successfully demonstrated a concept which would later be successfully incorporated into the design of a number of combat aircraft, including the F-111, F-14, and the B-1B. Results of the research program provided a significant full-scale verification of NASA wind-tunnel predictions for the reduced drag and improved performance resulting from increasing the wing sweep as the speed of the aircraft approaches the speed of sound. The pilots found they could use the variable wing sweep as a tactical control to out-perform the accompanying escort aircraft during research missions.

Two X-5s were manufactured by Bell Aircraft Company. This single-place jet-powered aircraft, measured 36 ft in length with a wingspan of 19 ft (with the wings swept back 60 degrees). The wings could be swept back 20 to 60 degrees. The X-5 weighed 10,000 lb when fully fueled. The X-5 was powered by an Allison J-45-A jet engine with a static thrust of 4,900 lb. The maximum speed was 716 mph and the maximum altitude reached was 49,919 ft. The aircraft was equipped with and ejection seat. The first high-performance aircraft to feature a variable, in-flight wingsweep capability, the Bell X-5 completed its maiden flight at Edwards on June 20, 1951 , with Jean Ziegler, a Bell test pilot, at the controls. It was last flown on Oct. 25, 1955 by a young National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) test pilot named Neil Armstrong.

Perhaps less well known than its more famous stable mates, the X-5 had a number of unusual features. Born from an aerodynamic concept under development in the dying days of Nazi Germany, it came to fruition in the skies over Edwards where it engendered features used by the front-line combat aircraft of several nations today. Then, its research tasks completed, the aircraft spent its remaining years as a useful and hard-working member of the AFFTC€s flight line fleet.

Late in World War II, the German aircraft industry was desperately seeking new ways of improving the performance of its revolutionary new jet fighters. By 1945, German scientists were well aware that a swept-back wing was invaluable for speeds in the high subsonic range, approaching 600 mph. The new wing shape had certain inherent disadvantages, however, including instability at lower speed ranges, and it required longer runways for takeoff and landing. To better study the concept, the Messerschmitt company developed its P.1101, a research aircraft with fighter-like lines. The P.1101 was little more than a single Junkers 109-004B jet engine with a straight-through inlet and nozzle; the aircraft€s cockpit, wings and tail assembly were all located above the thrust line. The sweep angle of its thin wings could be changed manually, on the ground. Nearly completed by war€s end, the Messerchmitt aircraft never flew. Its design, however, and the concepts it was created to study, intrigued U.S. engineers.

Bell Aircraft Corporation, in particular, was intrigued with the possibilities offered by this strange craft. Bell was one of the most research-minded and innovative of the wartime aviation companies and, soon after V-E Day, it began to offer proposals to the Air Materiel Command to exploit and follow up on the German research. Finally, in 1949, the company received a contract to construct two variable-sweep-wing test bed aircraft based upon the wartime design.

The two X-5 aircraft which resulted resembled the general lines of the P. 1101; they were, however, advanced designs in their own right. Although the German plane was nominally a fighter design and some thought had been given to developing the Bell design into a combat aircraft, the X-5s were pure research airplanes. They were small, for one thing--36 feet in length with a (swept-back) wingspan of only 19 feet--and the 4,900 pound thrust of their single Allison J35-A-17 engine was just sufficient to move a pilot and the complicated wing assembly to a useful maximum speed of Mach 0.91--about 700 mph. But the pot-bellied little craft had a number of insuperable advantages. Unlike the more famous of its X-plane sisters, it could easily take off and land under its own power. Moreover, unlike its German-speaking predecessor, the pilot of the Bell plane could change the sweep angle of its wings in flight, repeatedly if necessary.

Like so much else in the field of aerodynamics, the concept was far more complicated than it might seem. Changing the sweep angle of a wing might be mechanically simple enough, but the act of doing so changes the aircraft€s center of gravity and that in turn alters its relationship to the center of lift. Bell engineers compensated by mounting the wing pivots on the outboard edge of each side of the fuselage. A push-button on the control stick activated an electric motor which pivoted the wings by means of a gearbox and jackscrews. As this was happening, another pair of jackscrews simultaneously pushed the entire wing assembly forward (or back) on rails, up to 27 inches, to maintain the optimum center of gravity. The wings of the X-5 could be moved through its full range, from twenty to sixty degrees of sweepback, in 20 seconds.

Clearly, an aircraft which could change the sweep of its wings at will would enjoy enormous advantages in performance. Wings could be swept far back in flight for a speed advantage, yet extended nearly straight for easy takeoff and a safe landing speed. The concept came to be known as €œvariable-geometry€ and was immediately dubbed €œswing-wing€ by the public. Bell test pilot Jean €œSkip€ Ziegler took the unusual plane aloft for the first time on 20 June, 1951. During its highly successful research program, the X-5 was flown by a succession of the Air Force€s and NACA€s most noted test pilots, including Joe Walker, Scott Crossfield, Lt Col €œPete€ Everest and Brig Gen Albert Boyd, among others. Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong, later to be the first person to walk on the moon, also flew the diminutive plane.

The little white X-5, perched on its stalky landing gear, was by no means an uncomplicated aircraft, nor were its flight characteristics in any way benign. In the NACA test program, the X-5 demonstrated severe stall-spin instability. Its stall and spin qualities were best described as €œvicious.€ Air Force test pilot Maj Raymond Popson, in fact, lost his life on 14 October, 1953, when the second X-5 crashed during a flight to study its ability to recover from a spin. Nevertheless, both the aircraft itself and its test programs were highly successful. Variable-geometry wingform was indeed a practical proposition. Not only were low- and high-speed capabilities enhanced, but test pilots soon discovered that changing the wing sweep in flight allowed them to outmaneuver their chase planes in simulated dogfights.

Although the mechanism by which the X-5 changed its wing sweep made this particular design impractical, development of a viable variable-sweep aircraft had to await Langley Aeronautical Laboratory€s concept of an outboard wing pivot in the mid-1950s (Langley was a NACA research laboratory in Hampton, Virginia.) The Air Force€s F-111 and B-1 bombers, the Navy€s F-14 fighter and many aircraft types from other nations all owe their existence to the odd-looking research plane which emerged from the flames of World War II.

As for the surviving X-5 itself: after the completion of its research programs, the small veteran remained on the Edwards flight line as a working airplane for several years. It€s dependability and proven versatility over a wide speed range made it a natural chase plane, and so after its days of glory it quietly performed line duties for later, more advanced flight programs. In 1958, it was finally transferred to the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB, where it may be seen today.

03-05-2005, 12:22 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Mig-15 or I-310</span>


The Mikoyan and Gurevich (MiG) design team utilized captured German technology when developing the layout of the MiG-15. The plane's 35 degree swept wing, fuselage mounted engine and clean lines gave the aircraft exceptional performance. Powered by a unlicensed copy of the famous British Nene centrifugal flow jet engine, the MiG-15 was capable of speeds up to Mach .934. The initial prototype, the I-310, made its first flight in December 1947 and won a fly-off against the Lavochkin La-15. The MiG-15 went into production and entered front line service in 1949.

Sorry for the link... update.

03-05-2005, 12:26 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">La-15</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">The Mig's main competitor the Lavochkin La 17</span>

The Mig I-310 was of a conventional layout, heavily influenced by German research on aeronautics and considered to be the best compromise by the Mig OKB, however it was a indigenous Soviet design. It consisted of mid mounted 35? swept wings, with the main undercarriage fitting into them, a short circular section fuselage which housed a pressurized cockpit with an ejection seat, engine and a large T-tail, the only real problem was the engine. The choice was between an Axial-flow design based on a German design and a centrifugal design based this time on the British "Nean" engine (VK-1PO). In the end the centrifugal engine was chosen.

Fortuitously as it turned out, as in September 1946 the British agreed the export 10 "Nean" engine to the USSR at once, with a further 15 in March 1947 and more to follow. By the end of October 1946 the Soviets were issuing production drawing of the "Nean" to No 45 Production Factory for production (the "new" engine being designated RD-45 after the factory) with Mig receiving full installation drawing for the engine by February 1947.

The first prototype (S-01) was finished on the 27/11/1947 with the first flight being on the 30/12/1947, flown by Vikitor Nikolayevich Yuganov. A number of changes were made such as the increasing of the tail plane sweep to 40? from 35?, the cutting back of the rear fuselage to shorten the the jet pipe by 320mm. The second prototype (S-02) was fitted with the more powerful Nean-2 engine, with the third aircraft (S-03) having all of the above modification as well as airbrakes installed to the rear of a strengthened fuselage and hard points under the wings and armament fitted. This aircraft took to the air on 17/6/1948 and was extremely successful in testing and in August 1948 the design was given the go ahead for production, by 1956 a staggering 12,000 had been made in all versions and it was in use in the 1990's around the world as a trainer, the Mig-15 UTI.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">La-15 </span>

Small swept-wing jet fighter, production version of the La-174D with RD-500 engine. Weight increased by 142kg compared with the prototype, and flight performance slightly suffered. But this deterioration did not affect outcome of trials.
Pilots loved La-15 for easy handling and reliability. Pressurized cockpit allowed to increase ceiling against other contemporary fighters.
Production version normally was used without external tank. Flight endurance was only 40-50min, but performance was better than with the tank. Ceiling was up to 14800m.

La-150 [Type-3] - The first jet fighter of the Lavochkin bureau. The La-150 had a straight shoulder wing. The engine intake was in the nose, the engine outlet ended after the wing, below the tail, to reduce trust losses. The engine was a copy of the German Jumo 004, and was unsufficiently powerful (850kg RD-10). Five built. 1946.
First seen 08/03/1947 Soviet Aviation Day, Tushino.
La-152 [Type-4] - Straight-wing jet fighter. The La-152 was a mid-wing aircraft with the pilot positioned aft of the engine, and its wing was also thinner than that of the La-150, although its design was initiated only a few months later. To avoid duct losses, the engine was placed in the extreme nose, with an exhaust under the wing trailing edge. Three built; the second and third prototypes were known as La-154 and La-156. One 900kg RD-10. 1946.
First seen 08/03/1947 Soviet Aviation Day, Tushino.
La-154 - The second La-152. Differences between La-152, -154 and -156 were minor. The La-154 had a Lyulka TR-1 engine, but was never flown.
La-156 [Type-5] - The third La-152. Differences between La-152, -154, and -156 were minor. The La-156 had an afterburning RD-10F engine which was 30% more powerful than that of the La-152.
First seen 08/03/1947 Soviet Aviation Day, Tushino.
La-160 19.3K [Type-6] - Developed as Project 'Strela'. Swept wing test aircraft and fighter prototype. The La-160 was a swept-wing development of the La-152. It was the first swept-wing Soviet fighter. Used mainly for research, because the aircraft was too small to carry much fuel or armament. One 1170kg RD-10F. 1947.
First seen 08/03/1947 Soviet Aviation Day, Tushino.
From Lavochkin's home page: 1 19.3K.
La-168 [Type-15] - The La-168 had an high-set, swept wing. In contrast with the La-150/ 152/ 160/ 174TK series, the engine was behined the pilot, with an exhaust nozzle at the extreme tail. It was designed around the newly-acquired R.R. Nene engine, but lost to the competing MiG-15. One 2270kg R.R. Nene. 1948.
First seen 1948 Soviet Aviation Day, Tushino.
La-172 - The La-172 was essentially lighter, smaller than La-168, with the less powerful R.R. Derwent engine. It was intended as a 'frontal fighter', rather than as an interceptor. One 1600kg NII-1. One built. 1948.
La-174D [Type-21] - Service designation La-15; later the NATO Reporting Name 'Fantail' was assigned. Similar to the La-168 but smaller.
First seen 1949 Soviet Aviation Day, Tushino
La-174TK - The La-174TK was developed in parallel to the La-172; it reverted to the configuration of the La-152 and had very thin, unswept wings. Performance was inferior than that of the La-172, and the development was discontinued. One 1600kg NII-1. One built. 1948.
La-176 27.3K - The La-176 was a swept-wing fighter similar to the La-168, but with increased wing sweep and the VK-1 (R.R. Nene) engine. It was the first Soviet aircraft to exceed Mach 1 in a dive. (Foreigners' "blah-blah". It was the first a/c capable to fly horizontally at supersonic speed.) One built, development was abandoned after the loss of the prototype in a fatal crash. One 2700kg Klimov VK-1. 1948.
From Lavochkin's home page: 1 27.3K.
La-180 - Factory designation of the La-15UTI trainer version.

03-05-2005, 12:28 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Su-9 K</span>


Single-seat jet fighter-bomber with two RD-10 engines, installed under the wing. Su-9 often mentioned as "resembling the Me-262", but the Su-9 was far more advanced. And "Me-262 layout" was so common among twin-engined aircraft....
'K' was equipped with booster-actuated airbrakes, installed between the engines and ailerons. Airbrakes were deploying both upwards and downwards. To cut Landing Roll brake chute was used in addition to the airbrakes. Pilot had a catapult seat for emergency bail out. Solid state RATO boosters U-5 became a standard option, one on each side of the fuselage. Each U-5 provided 575kg trust during 8sec.
In addition to powerful array of barrel weapons (salvo 7.33kg/sec to 8.57kg/sec) Su-9 could carry two FAB-250 or single FAB-500 bombs.
Full-size mockup was presented to the State Commetee on January 31, 1946. Aircraft was built in 1946. On August 3, 1947 it was demonstrated to public during Tushino airforce parade. In December 1946 it successfully passed all trials and was recomended for series production. But at the time P.O.Sukhoj had even more advanced and better performing Su-11 'KL' aircraft ready, and Su-9 was abandoned.
Designation later was used for unrelated Su-9 known on the West as a "Fishpot".

03-05-2005, 12:32 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">J-29 Flygande Tunnan...</span>


Saab 29 4 1948-50 prototypes, never in AF service
J 29A 224 1951-53 -1963(65) 29101-29324
A/J 29B 361 1953-55 -(1957) 29325-29685
S 29C 76 1954-56 -1970 29901-29976
Saab 29D 1 1955 -(1954)
J/A 29E 29 1954 -(1958)
J/A 29F 308 1955-58 -1968(76)

wingspan 11 meters 36 feet 1 inch
wing area 24.0 sq_meters 258.34 sq_feet
length 10.13 meters 33 feet 2 inches
height 3.75 meters 12 feet 3 inches

empty weight 4,845 kilograms 10,680 pounds
max loaded weight 8,375 kilograms 18,470 pounds

maximum speed 1,060 KPH 660 MPH / 575 KT
service ceiling 15,500 meters 50,850 feet
range 1,100 kilometers 680 MI / 595 NMI

* The Swedes were thoroughly intimidated by the fall of Norway and Denmark to Hitler in the spring of 1940, as they knew their country could not withstand a German assault. This led to a high-priority effort to improve Sweden's defenses, with a strong emphasis on the development of modern combat aircraft.

By the end of the war, it was obvious to the engineers of the primary Swedish aviation company, Svenska Aeroplan AB (SAAB), that jet power was the way of the future for combat aircraft. However, Axis and Allied jet development efforts were largely secret, and the Swedes had little knowledge of the technology.

They worked hard to catch up. By the fall of 1945, they were able to get their hands on the British de Havilland Goblin centrifugal-flow turbojet engine, presently arranging to manufacture it under license. SAAB used the Goblin engine to provide the Flygvapnet (Swedish Air Force) with the first indigenous Swedish jet fighter by fitting the engine to the J-21 pusher-prop fighter, developed during the war. The first jet-propelled "J-21R" flew in 1947.

The J-21R was a step in the right direction, but it was still well behind the times. As an interim measure, until Swedish industry could provide up-to-date combat aircraft, the Flygvapnet obtained a quantity of British de Havilland Vampire F.1 jet fighters, giving them the designation "J-28A". The first J-28A Vampires reached operational service in 1947.


* In the meantime, SAAB was working on advanced design studies for jet fighter aircraft, beginning with the "RX-1", which was roughly along the lines of the Vampire, and then the "R-101" or "Cigar", which was more along the lines of the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star. SAAB engineers had no knowledge of the P-80 when they drew up the R-101 design, and when they found out about the Shooting Star they realized they were several years behind the times and went back to the drawing board.

By October 1945, they had come up with a fighter design study built around the Goblin, featuring the engine stuffed into a fuselage with a straight-in intake in the nose and a straight-out exhaust in the rear, and the pilot perched above the engine under a sliding bubble canopy. The laminar-flow wing was to be very thin, and so the tricycle landing gear had to retract into the fuselage. The resulting fuselage had a fat appearance. The fuselage extended above the exhaust to support the tail assembly, this configuration giving the tail adequate clearance on steep take-offs despite short landing gear.

The Flygvapnet was interested in the design, but then SAAB learned that de Havilland had developed a new centrifugal-flow turbojet named the Ghost that was substantially more powerful than the Goblin. SAAB engineers worked with their de Havilland counterparts and determined that the Ghost could be fit into the new fighter design.

Through the assistance of the Swiss, SAAB engineers were also able to get their hands on German aerodynamic research data from the war that demonstrated the effectiveness of a swept wing for high-speed flight, and so modified the original straight wing to a wing with a sweepback of 25 degrees. The design study of the revised jet fighter concept, with the Ghost engine and swept wing, was complete by early 1946.


The new fighter was expected to have a top speed of 1,000 KPH (620 MPH), and the Flygvapnet became very keen on it. A formal development program was begun in February 1946 under the project designation of "R-1001". Wind tunnel tests were performed, and a SAAB 91A Safir light piston aircraft was fitted with a half-scale version of the 25-degree swept wing for flight tests that began in the spring of 1946. This odd experimental aircraft was designated "Aircraft 201".

* In the fall of 1946, the Flygvapnet ordered three prototypes of the fighter, which was given the designation "J-29". The initial prototype made its first flight on 1 September 1948, with test pilot Robert Moore at the controls.

The prototype was powered by a de Havilland Ghost 45 engine, with 19.6 kN (2,000 kgp / 4,400 lbf) thrust. It had power-boosted ailerons, and leading-edge slats fitted to the outer part of the wings to reduce landing speed. The slats were extended automatically when the flaps were lowered.

Performance exceeded expectations, and despite the aircraft's tubby looks, the J-29 proved surprising agile. The first two prototypes were unarmed, but the third was fitted with four 20 millimeter cannon, presumably the Hispano Mark V, built under license in Sweden. The cannon were fitted under the nose intake and had 180 rounds per gun. A fourth prototype was also ordered, flying in 1950.

Fixed photo...

03-05-2005, 12:37 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Ta-183</span>

Hans Multhopp holds a scale model of his Ta 183. Multhopp who, as a young gifted aerodynamicist at Focke-Wulf, was a member of Kurt Tank's advanced design team responsible for the Ta 183. After the war, Multhopp accepted a job with the Glenn L. Martin Company in Baltimore, Maryland. Multhopp was Tank's theoretical advisor who recognized and understood the advantages of the swept wing.

In January 1944, Entwurf 5, design description Nr. 279, was advanced by Focke-Wulf engineers, This fifth design draft contained plans for two versions of a new fighter. The first, Plan V (P V), was to be powered by a HeS 01 1A and be equipped for high altitude operations at 46,000 ft (14,000 m). Plans for this aircraft were approved by the RLM which sanctioned further development under the GL/C designation Fw 2522. At the same time it also became the new official Entwurf 3, replacing the former Draft 3 concept study, which had already been abandoned. The second variant was a short stubby fighter design with swept wings and powered by a turbojet and rocket motor. The HeS 01 1A was augmented by a bi-fuel rocket motor to be mounted above and slightly aft of the turbojet. Known as Plan VI (P VI), the new design study appealed to the RLM which sanctioned continued development of this interceptor fighter. This design study then became the official new Entwurf 2 (with the cancellation of the 1943 Plan 11 concept study). Initially Focke-Wulf applied the RLM GL/C designation Fw 232 to the new fighter,but since this number had already been assigned to Arado for their Ar 232 transport which, was in active service with the Luftwaffe (although in very modest numbers), the Air Ministry reassigned the unused GL/C number 183 to the design, concurrently allowing Kurt Tank to add the first two letters of his surname as a prefix.

Created under the direction of Dipl.-Ing. Hans Multhopp, the new Focke-Wulf fighter design had been expanded to include four possible variations of the theme. The first of these, the Ta 183 Ra- 13, was equipped with the HeS 0 11 R which was a turbojet fitted with an auxiliary bi-fuel rocket motor. The Ta 183 Ra-2 was similar but switched to the Jumo 004B and had an increased wingspan. The Ta 183 Ra-3 was to revert to the HeS 011 but without the rocket motor. While generally similar, the Ta 183 Ra-4 was to serve as the definitive interceptor fighter powered by the HeS 01 1A.

After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15.
But one thing about the Mig 15 though... 1946 is the cut off year for IL-2 aircraft.

Added some extra info... and fix photo.

03-05-2005, 01:54 AM
excellent posting Woofiedog

you can see the lineage in the Pulquie , LA-15 , Mig-15 , & especially the J-29

but its a stretch to say the Ta-183 , in the stubby configuration that we see it drawen as , would have made it to final production

the lengthened Pulquie & Mig showed what was needed to make a decent handeling plane out of the Huckbien's research

03-05-2005, 03:05 AM
Badsight... I agree that the orginal Ta-183 would have ended up more like the Mig-15 or Pulqui II.
One thing though is the time needed to make these changes... which Germany do not have at that time period.

03-05-2005, 10:43 AM
Woofiedog.....I salute you. You have posted one of the best historical articals these forums have ever seen/read. Good work.


03-05-2005, 10:10 PM
TX-Bomblast, Badsight... Thank's