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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:43 PM
It was common after the WWII to invent reasons why Germans could have such a high kill records. This was common for example in US and England. One claim those 'reseachers' made was that Germans counted every engine for a kill (so you get 4 kills for a B-17 and so on). This was probably because those individuals couldn't accept that the 'dirty nazis' could have done so much better than they.

Unfortunately this claim lived very long (and some people still believe in it). Later many US and English historians have maid some real research and come to the conclusion that the German kill verification system was actually much more strict than what the allies used. For example read the biography of Erich Hartmann (something like 'The German black Knight' in english) which is written by an US writer. There are some writings about German points, but is not the same as kill records.

During the war many German pilots even din't bother to make a victory claim sometimes, because they knew that it wouldn't be accepted. Of course they were times when they maid and it still wasn't accepted. Hartmann had something like 1400 missions, 825 combats and 352 kills (if I remember right - can check it I someone want). That's not very well actually. If I would doubt something, it would be that someone can score 71 kills in 70 missions (Gunther Scheel)! Also Hans Joachim Marsseille scored 158 English and American planes and those can be even verified from the Allieed sources (so I've read).

About Germans shooting only rookies? Not true. Every side lost aces every this and then. Aces just make less mistakes which would result in their death. Sometimes even aces made novice mistakes (like stayed watching his last victim go down in flames).

What about the claim that ace leaders got all the kills? Not true either. Some pilots got high kill records even when flying as a wingman. I'm not sure if the following was a standard system in Luftwaffe, but at least in JG52 the pair leader was the one who had more kills (at least after 1942 and this is wrong in the game!), not the one with the highest rank. Hartmann got promoted very slowly (he wasn't considered to be of officer class), but he could and was sometimes leading with a higher ranking person as his wingman.

I have read quite many aviation books. Unfortunately I cannot understand Russian, so this the following opinion is based on the short translations from Russian books. They seem to have a kind of 'scifi' (or 'avifi') feeling. Russian books make some very interesting claims and at least the number of shot down Finnish planes is much bigger than the losses in Finnish records. But I still don't doubt that leading Soviet aces couldn't have scored 60+ kills.

And just in case. I'm not a nazi, commie or pro anything (only pro peace maybe). And my point in a nut shell: there wasn't any more 'air' in the German kills records than any other side!!!




Message Edited on 08/27/0308:46PM by Bruusteri

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:43 PM
It was common after the WWII to invent reasons why Germans could have such a high kill records. This was common for example in US and England. One claim those 'reseachers' made was that Germans counted every engine for a kill (so you get 4 kills for a B-17 and so on). This was probably because those individuals couldn't accept that the 'dirty nazis' could have done so much better than they.

Unfortunately this claim lived very long (and some people still believe in it). Later many US and English historians have maid some real research and come to the conclusion that the German kill verification system was actually much more strict than what the allies used. For example read the biography of Erich Hartmann (something like 'The German black Knight' in english) which is written by an US writer. There are some writings about German points, but is not the same as kill records.

During the war many German pilots even din't bother to make a victory claim sometimes, because they knew that it wouldn't be accepted. Of course they were times when they maid and it still wasn't accepted. Hartmann had something like 1400 missions, 825 combats and 352 kills (if I remember right - can check it I someone want). That's not very well actually. If I would doubt something, it would be that someone can score 71 kills in 70 missions (Gunther Scheel)! Also Hans Joachim Marsseille scored 158 English and American planes and those can be even verified from the Allieed sources (so I've read).

About Germans shooting only rookies? Not true. Every side lost aces every this and then. Aces just make less mistakes which would result in their death. Sometimes even aces made novice mistakes (like stayed watching his last victim go down in flames).

What about the claim that ace leaders got all the kills? Not true either. Some pilots got high kill records even when flying as a wingman. I'm not sure if the following was a standard system in Luftwaffe, but at least in JG52 the pair leader was the one who had more kills (at least after 1942 and this is wrong in the game!), not the one with the highest rank. Hartmann got promoted very slowly (he wasn't considered to be of officer class), but he could and was sometimes leading with a higher ranking person as his wingman.

I have read quite many aviation books. Unfortunately I cannot understand Russian, so this the following opinion is based on the short translations from Russian books. They seem to have a kind of 'scifi' (or 'avifi') feeling. Russian books make some very interesting claims and at least the number of shot down Finnish planes is much bigger than the losses in Finnish records. But I still don't doubt that leading Soviet aces couldn't have scored 60+ kills.

And just in case. I'm not a nazi, commie or pro anything (only pro peace maybe). And my point in a nut shell: there wasn't any more 'air' in the German kills records than any other side!!!




Message Edited on 08/27/0308:46PM by Bruusteri

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:48 PM
Ooopps. I posted a new thread, I ment to post this under the thread "Truth about german fighter pilots score system"

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:48 PM
What they say, there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old and bold pilots /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Roy Baty
IV/JG51 M├┬Âlders

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:51 PM
We have gone over this so many times in the past. Must we do it again? Yes they were accurate, jesus.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:16 PM
<u>Germans practically did not have any claim verification procedures for the claims of the enemy planes been shotdown behind enemy lines</u> - screaming "Horrido" over radio was enough... To simply put it - all pilots claims were accepted and confirmed. While reading books about Hartmann or Rall - you always notice how much effort they put into filling all necessary paperwork - the only real requirement for submitting the claims on the Eastern Front.
Of course, situation was totally different when there were need to claim planes shotdown over "Germany proper" - here all shotdown planes could be easily traced to a wreaks on the ground - not much room to owerclaim.
Generally plots of all nations were very imaginative claiming victories over territories controlled by the enemy or over surface of sea or oceans, and understandably very accurate when claiming victories over ground firmly controlled by friendly forces or metropolitan areas.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Well, the fact every claim was confirmed is not true, what proportion of these claims were confirmed, I don't know, but in a recent article in the "Aero Journal" about the high scoring german pilots, there was a photo of a claim record which mentioned all available data and the commanding officer of the unit (which was flight leader) as a direct witness, printed above the sheet two conclusions by the confirmation service (claim not confirmed, later confirmation possible).

Apart from that, about 80 percents of Molders'claims in the West can be confirmed with the opponent's records, while about 100 of Marseille's claims can be found in British records (and this while these records are not complete, a lot of them having been lost for the units operating in north africa).

That said, there was overclaim in the LW, about 3 claims being made for 2 aircraft actually shot down by german fighters (at least in the West, in the East, it was reportedly about 2:1).

For the russians, the confirmation system varied a lot depending on the front areas and the years of war, a high overclaim rate could be observed in the first year (or the first 18 months) of the war (4 or 5 to one), while, later, the confirmation system proved very accurate (the aircraft being credited only if they fell in soviet controlled territory and no shared kill being individually credited).

And one thing must be remembered : the elite units or the best pilots often, at least in the VVS (but it seems it was the same in the LW and in the USAAF (8th air force, the Pacific being another story)), overclaimed far less than average.

P.S. : for the two first soviet aces, their real tally most probably corresponds to the official one, or is even higher, Pokrishkin having claimed at least 87 (some said the figure was in excess of 100, but 87 is the highest detailed list I read so far) german aircraft (a number of his kills were not credited because of his bad relationship with his CO in 1941-1942, 12 fell behind ennemy lines at a time when these were not confirmed, and one was attributed to AA gunners because they had fired on the Ju-88 first even if the gunners themselves said he had shot it down with rockets), while Kozhedub, according to his regiment's pilots claimed 65 germans individually shot down and 29 shared kills (he was never credited for these), and you can add the two P-51s which mistakenly attacked him and that he shot down (the surviving pilot saying they had been shot down by a "red nosed Focke-Wulf").

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:16 AM
nicli wrote:
- Well, the fact every claim was confirmed is not
- true, what proportion of these claims were
- confirmed, I don't know, but in a recent article in
- the "Aero Journal" about the high scoring german
- pilots, there was a photo of a claim record which
- mentioned all available data and the commanding
- officer of the unit (which was flight leader) as a
- direct witness, printed above the sheet two
- conclusions by the confirmation service (claim not
- confirmed, later confirmation possible).

Yes. I didn't mean that every claim was confirmed. Pilots made claims, wrote a report, posted it to Berlin and waited many months or so (later in the war had to wait longer) to see if it was approved. Sometimes they didn't even bother to write a claim report. I guess every ace had more claims than what got approved. What puzzles me is that if it took so long to approve a victory, it means that many of the victories in '45 should be unapproved. And the claim reports burned in Berlin bombings or when the ruskies came. But the approval ratio should have been about the same as in '44.

I have pic of such a kill claim report (approved) in a book with all discriptions, signatures, stamps etc (you can see that it took about 6 months to approve that one in 1944). I'm not sure if 6 months is a standard time or just an exceptionally long.

- That said, there was overclaim in the LW, about 3
- claims being made for 2 aircraft actually shot down
- by german fighters (at least in the West, in the
- East, it was reportedly about 2:1).

Yes. Say if there was P-51s escorting B-17s. A downed 109 could have been claimed by not just multiple P-51s, but also by multiple B-17s and each of those B-17s by multiple gunners. Even that didn't prove that the 109 was downed at all. That's means that the same 109 got counted multiple times. I'm sure the situation was about the same in LW and VVS, etc. An approval system might have had a hard time to track these situations (I doubt they ever cross checked claim reports). But that doesn't mean that Hartmann scored only 50% of those 352 kills and Galland 66% of 104. Especially I find kill records more reliable for pilots who opened fire at very close ranges like Hartmann and Pokryskin. Often there was no guestion about did the plane go down or not, they just had to convince the people at the office.

- And one thing must be remembered : the elite units
- or the best pilots often, at least in the VVS (but
- it seems it was the same in the LW and in the USAAF
- (8th air force, the Pacific being another story)),
- overclaimed far less than average.

Very probable, even I haven't seen statistics.

- P.S. : for the two first soviet aces, their real
- tally most probably corresponds to the official one,
- or is even higher, ...

Yes. Like I said. Common for each side. If counting uncertain victories the best Finnish guy had over 100 kills (now 93, cannot remember number of uncertain kills). Besides, as I said, I do believe that the Russian top aces really shot down 60 planes or so. I only said some Russian books looks 'scifi' (propacanda probably as written in Soviet Union time). Actually I haven't found anything which would make me think differently about any nationality (principle: innocent uneless otherwise proved /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

It seems we have very much the same opinion about this subject.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:03 PM
But of course they were accurate. As the records so very accurately show, the Germans actually won the Battle of Britain and annihilated the RAF! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:25 PM
Bogun wrote:
- Germans practically did not have any claim
- verification procedures for the claims of the enemy
- planes been shotdown behind enemy lines -
- screaming "Horrido" over radio was enough... To
- simply put it - all pilots claims were accepted and
- confirmed.


What G.Rall told us in 14th june this summer, he said that every kill had to be confirmed either by someone who saw it or the crashed plane had to be found (now everyone who have seen this before, raise your right hand..... 1,2,3,4,5... ok enough - thank you )

And I always thought that "Horrido" ment same as british "Tally Ho" ( I'm in visual contact with enemy )
Not sure though...

So screaming "Horrido" wan't enough to get a kill

Regads

SheerLuck Holmes

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:15 PM
Slush69 wrote:
- But of course they were accurate. As the records so
- very accurately show, the Germans actually won the
- Battle of Britain and annihilated the RAF!
- cheers/slush


The germans records don't show anything like a victory in battle of Britain.

What is true is that their single seat fighter units claimed far more victories than they suffered losses but that corresponds to historical reality.

The bulk of german losses during BoB was suffered by medium bombers or stuka units.

Having said that, we should not mix the german (or british) propaganda claims in radio speeches, daily communicates, etc...with the LW or RAF internal records (the latter being far more accurate, even if not perfectly so).

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:25 PM
The reason German kills were so high is very simple: They flew their pilots until they died.

Richard Bong, the USAAF's top scoring ace got forty kills in around 50 missions, or about one kill every time he flew a combat sortie. Then we pulled him back stateside, and wouldn't let him go back into combat. I'm sure if he had 1500 combat missions, he'd likely have just as many kills as Hartmann, if not more.

The same thing happened with every pilot who scored enough kills; they were pulled back stateside. We dropped our Experten into the training camps, to raise the general quality of our airmen. It seemed to work too.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:29 PM
Salute

The Germans overclaimed just like everyone else. Some nations like the Soviets and the Japanese overclaimed by larger amounts, (4-1 for those two) others like the Germans and Americans by less. (1.5 - 1)

Anyone who does any kind of serious research into the subject can, by comparing the opposing side's loss and claim records, determine how much overclaiming went on.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:34 PM
claimed east was probable too very right,

because low altitude much easy to reconitze if the bird go down and exploded







Message Edited on 08/29/0301:35AM by Skalgrim