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View Full Version : Why doesn't 190,109 have rearview mirrors?



Oilburner_TAW
08-31-2005, 06:08 PM
I'm one of those who doesn't have a particular plane they fly all the time, I hop around depending on what's needed on the server (Greatergreen!). A couple of days ago I had to fly blue to even teams and I started wondering why none of the German fighters (at least the one's I flew) had rearview mirrors. They are such a blessing. Anybody know the reasoning behind this?

HoneySeeker
08-31-2005, 06:36 PM
Because the real planes didn't have them. Possibly they were found to be of little to no use at all?

StellarRat
08-31-2005, 06:45 PM
I believe Oleg was trying follow the historical facts. Most of the planes with poor rear visibility have them. The P-51D should have one and doesn't. I believe Oleg was trying follow the historical facts. Also, "illegal" mirrors were frequently added by ground crews for pilots that requested them.

VW-IceFire
08-31-2005, 06:48 PM
I think alot of German pilots felt they didn't need them. Some RAF pilots specifically requested mirrors, some specifically requested them removed.

The 190 has very good rear visibilty...if you look at the FW190A-4 for instance...in its year, its probably the best rear vision of anything except perhaps the I-153. The 109 I find not as good...but my theory is that the cockpit is just far too cramped for a mirror to be useful anyways. Not sure.

Seems more of an Allied plane feature. But not in all cases.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-31-2005, 06:56 PM
I've read several 109 pilot accounts in which they refer to a rear-view mirror. I think some pilots had them rigged up in the field. The overall impression I get is that a lot of pilots preferred to get rid of the mirrors because they were more distracting than helpful because they offered a "blury" image with all the vibration, in some cases they had an appreciable impact on the pilots field of view to the twelve o'clock position and they had a nasty habit of reflecting sunlight into the pilots eyes.

fordfan25
08-31-2005, 06:59 PM
i may be wrong but didnt the hellcat have a rear view mirrior as well?

ClnlSandersLite
08-31-2005, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The 190 has very good rear visibilty...if you look at the FW190A-4 for instance...in its year, its probably the best rear vision of anything except perhaps the I-153.

Nah, the only thing obstructing the rear view on the lightning it the elevator.

alert_1
09-01-2005, 12:18 AM
Me109/Fw190 was so fast in RL (and didnt dogfight in RL) that there was no need for them. On the other hand, La7 got them in 1944...does it mean something? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Abbuzze
09-01-2005, 01:57 AM
Personal I think the way the rearview mirrors are modelled bad in FB/PF.
Of course planes which had them out of the factory or were reequiped at the front with them should have them - No question!

But there should be a menuepoint like the detailed/normal clouds, if you check it, there will be allways a mirror, you can disable the mirror to increase FPS in critical situation but the body of the mirror should not disapear.

They way mirrors are useable at the moment is much better than in in RL. RL pilots didn´t had the possibility to switch of the mirror to get a better view to their upper 12 o´clock postion.

I think If you decide to use a mirror and benefit of it, you should also have the disadvantage of limited view to the front. All the time.

ploughman
09-01-2005, 02:21 AM
RL pilots didn´t had the possibility to switch of the mirror to get a better view to their upper 12 o´clock postion.

RL pilots could bob their heads from side to side to see around visual obstacles. We won't have that until BoB with Track IR.

WOLFMondo
09-01-2005, 02:38 AM
What Ploughman says. Planes with cut down rear fuselages like the FW190 didn't need mirrors as much as those with backs like the Spitfire or P47.

One thing though, the FW190 seating position is in a reclining position, this probably didn't make it too easy to see right out the back of the plane. probably gave all the pilots a bad neck years later.

tigertalon
09-01-2005, 02:42 AM
When they were considering the installation of rear view mirrors on german fighters, one of Luftwaffe top aces said:"When you see bogey in your rear mirror, it's already to late. So, no need for rear view mirrors."

Can't remember well who was it. Guenther Rall I suppose.

Abbuzze
09-01-2005, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">RL pilots didn´t had the possibility to switch of the mirror to get a better view to their upper 12 o´clock postion.

RL pilots could bob their heads from side to side to see around visual obstacles. We won't have that until BoB with Track IR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes and all planes in FB, except the 109 G/K have the possibility to move the pilotshead fore and back, just change between gunsight and normal view. So there is no Problem to watch "behind" the mirror even in PF!
But still simply removing the mirror when I go into a turningfight is silly.

JG53Frankyboy
09-01-2005, 03:33 AM
i think proper teamtactic , formations and radiocommunikation is better than any rearview mirror.

btw, during the Battle of Britan lot of Bf109Es had mirors ! all fieldmodifications.

WOLFMondo
09-01-2005, 03:54 AM
I must admit, the mirror on the P47 and P38 have saved me many times. being able to see a plane a few K's away despite flying with a wingman could have saved either of us. At least it buys you more time than you would have had seeing the enemies tracers go by and then reacting.

Jaras
09-01-2005, 04:28 AM
Stupid question:
How to turn on mirror on P38, P47 ???

Oilburner_TAW
09-01-2005, 04:53 AM
You have to map a key (i think). For me it's ctrl+M. You can toggle between no mirror, low detail, high detail...look in the controls.

Amen wolf, that's the whole point of this. That little piece of glass has saved me many, many times.

JG53Frankyboy
09-01-2005, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I must admit, the mirror on the P47 and P38 have saved me many times. being able to see a plane a few K's away despite flying with a wingman could have saved either of us. At least it buys you more time than you would have had seeing the enemies tracers go by and then reacting.

in the game, oh yes, they are very usefull (sure the IAR80s not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

-no vibrations
-no speed loss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
-huge dots in the mirror
-rearside view is much worser than in real because of no "headmovement"

F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
I've read several 109 pilot accounts in which they refer to a rear-view mirror. I think some pilots had them rigged up in the field. .

I also have come across this a few times.

F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 07:03 AM
I really haven't touched the mirrors in the sim before because of framrates and I had a slow machine, but the other night I used them online for the first time and They really improve visibility.

LStarosta
09-01-2005, 07:14 AM
My car has a rear-view mirror.

Archangel2980
09-01-2005, 12:22 PM
I wonder if the mirror could give your position away with the sun reflecting off them.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-01-2005, 01:16 PM
As already said, the pilot can move his head. 190 was well know to have excellent all-round visibility, aided by it's nose down attitude in flight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

fordfan25
09-01-2005, 01:25 PM
Why doesn't 190,109 have rearview mirrors?


well its not like the FW needs one any way. seeing as it ant be kiled from the 6: position even with nuc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
09-01-2005, 01:27 PM
You obviously didn't see Oleg's comment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

berg417448
09-01-2005, 01:54 PM
Some 109's had them custom installed:

"Hermann Weber was a Luftwaffe pilot from 1941 to 1945, ending the war as Gruppen technical officer for I/JG4. Although he flew many types of aircraft during the war, almost all of his combat time was in Bf-109s (F, G, and K models)."

Throughout the war, Hermann had his own personal aircraft. When he commanded 4./JG4, his plane was Yellow 5, a Bf-109G-6 named "Whisky." Upon leaving Romania, Hermann gave that plane to the Romanians, and got a reconnaissance version for his personal plane. This was a much different aircraft from any other he flew. First off, it had a rear view mirror, which none of his other planes were ever equipped with. Second, the plane was built to a much higher level than standard fighters. All of the rivets had been filled and sanded, and the plane had outer gear doors (like the Bf-109K-4) which sealed the wheel wells very well. This gave his plane much better performance and endurance than the other aircraft in his unit, so he was always the last man in the formation to land.

As one would expect, Hermann had many things to say about the Bf-109. He pushed the Bf-109 about as far as it would go with regards to performance, having once flown a Bf-109F-4 up to 13 000 metres (over 40,000 feet), where he had to breathe direct pressure oxygen and the temperature was -70 degrees C. He also dove a Bf-109 to an indicated air speed of 950 km/h, and had a wing root fairing pop off! Hermann remembers all Bf-109s as having very strong torque, which could be quite unforgiving to a novice pilot. The interrupter gear for the cowl guns would fail on occasion; if the aircraft had an aluminum propeller, then a small hole would be left. The wooden propellers, however, would splinter.

Hermann Weber's description of the Bf-109K-4 as "the ultimate death trap for pilots," whose pilot was "all shook up" whenever the engine-mounted 30mm gun fired, we gain an amazing insight in to the world of sixty years ago by listening to veterans (by the way, the Bf-109K-4 was, according to Hermann, a very poor dogfighter due to its altered centre of gravity). He also believed that the P-51 was "a much hotter airplane" than any Bf-109. Among the most interesting and unexpected pieces of information I heard was Hermann's assessment of Romanian fighter pilots. Having flown with and sometimes commanded Romanian pilots, he felt that they were of a higher quality than German pilot, especially in their flying skills, due to the fact that they were drawn from the nobility and that almost all of them already knew how to fly before they joined the Romanian air force.€

Abbuzze
09-01-2005, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Some 109's had them custom installed:

"Hermann Weber was a Luftwaffe pilot from 1941 to 1945, ending the war as Gruppen technical officer for I/JG4. Although he flew many types of aircraft during the war, almost all of his combat time was in Bf-109s (F, G, and K models)."

Throughout the war, Hermann had his own personal aircraft. When he commanded 4./JG4, his plane was Yellow 5, a Bf-109G-6 named "Whisky." Upon leaving Romania, Hermann gave that plane to the Romanians, and got a reconnaissance version for his personal plane. This was a much different aircraft from any other he flew. First off, it had a rear view mirror, which none of his other planes were ever equipped with. Second, the plane was built to a much higher level than standard fighters. All of the rivets had been filled and sanded, and the plane had outer gear doors (like the Bf-109K-4) which sealed the wheel wells very well. This gave his plane much better performance and endurance than the other aircraft in his unit, so he was always the last man in the formation to land.

As one would expect, Hermann had many things to say about the Bf-109. He pushed the Bf-109 about as far as it would go with regards to performance, having once flown a Bf-109F-4 up to 13 000 metres (over 40,000 feet), where he had to breathe direct pressure oxygen and the temperature was -70 degrees C. He also dove a Bf-109 to an indicated air speed of 950 km/h, and had a wing root fairing pop off! Hermann remembers all Bf-109s as having very strong torque, which could be quite unforgiving to a novice pilot. The interrupter gear for the cowl guns would fail on occasion; if the aircraft had an aluminum propeller, then a small hole would be left. The wooden propellers, however, would splinter.

Hermann Weber's description of the Bf-109K-4 as "the ultimate death trap for pilots," whose pilot was "all shook up" whenever the engine-mounted 30mm gun fired, we gain an amazing insight in to the world of sixty years ago by listening to veterans (by the way, the Bf-109K-4 was, according to Hermann, a very poor dogfighter due to its altered centre of gravity). He also believed that the P-51 was "a much hotter airplane" than any Bf-109. Among the most interesting and unexpected pieces of information I heard was Hermann's assessment of Romanian fighter pilots. Having flown with and sometimes commanded Romanian pilots, he felt that they were of a higher quality than German pilot, especially in their flying skills, due to the fact that they were drawn from the nobility and that almost all of them already knew how to fly before they joined the Romanian air force.€

Interesting, do you have this informations from a book or something?

For this problem with the changed center of gravity, did he mentioned any source? I mean did he described any cause for this?
I know the postition of the radio was different in the K4, but whats the weight of such a radio?

Maybe the retractable rearwheel? - But 109F´s were equiped with such a system, but without such problems.

K4 was just an aerodynamic refined G10.
I heard this K4 handles bad sometimes, but never with an explanation for this.

p1ngu666
09-01-2005, 03:55 PM
ww2 radios where heavy

berg417448
09-01-2005, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
Some 109's had them custom installed:

"Hermann Weber was a Luftwaffe pilot from 1941 to 1945, ending the war as Gruppen technical officer for I/JG4. Although he flew many types of aircraft during the war, almost all of his combat time was in Bf-109s (F, G, and K models)."

Throughout the war, Hermann had his own personal aircraft. When he commanded 4./JG4, his plane was Yellow 5, a Bf-109G-6 named "Whisky." Upon leaving Romania, Hermann gave that plane to the Romanians, and got a reconnaissance version for his personal plane. This was a much different aircraft from any other he flew. First off, it had a rear view mirror, which none of his other planes were ever equipped with. Second, the plane was built to a much higher level than standard fighters. All of the rivets had been filled and sanded, and the plane had outer gear doors (like the Bf-109K-4) which sealed the wheel wells very well. This gave his plane much better performance and endurance than the other aircraft in his unit, so he was always the last man in the formation to land.

As one would expect, Hermann had many things to say about the Bf-109. He pushed the Bf-109 about as far as it would go with regards to performance, having once flown a Bf-109F-4 up to 13 000 metres (over 40,000 feet), where he had to breathe direct pressure oxygen and the temperature was -70 degrees C. He also dove a Bf-109 to an indicated air speed of 950 km/h, and had a wing root fairing pop off! Hermann remembers all Bf-109s as having very strong torque, which could be quite unforgiving to a novice pilot. The interrupter gear for the cowl guns would fail on occasion; if the aircraft had an aluminum propeller, then a small hole would be left. The wooden propellers, however, would splinter.

Hermann Weber's description of the Bf-109K-4 as "the ultimate death trap for pilots," whose pilot was "all shook up" whenever the engine-mounted 30mm gun fired, we gain an amazing insight in to the world of sixty years ago by listening to veterans (by the way, the Bf-109K-4 was, according to Hermann, a very poor dogfighter due to its altered centre of gravity). He also believed that the P-51 was "a much hotter airplane" than any Bf-109. Among the most interesting and unexpected pieces of information I heard was Hermann's assessment of Romanian fighter pilots. Having flown with and sometimes commanded Romanian pilots, he felt that they were of a higher quality than German pilot, especially in their flying skills, due to the fact that they were drawn from the nobility and that almost all of them already knew how to fly before they joined the Romanian air force.€

Interesting, do you have this informations from a book or something?

For this problem with the changed center of gravity, did he mentioned any source? I mean did he described any cause for this?
I know the postition of the radio was different in the K4, but whats the weight of such a radio?

Maybe the retractable rearwheel? - But 109F´s were equiped with such a system, but without such problems.

K4 was just an aerodynamic refined G10.
I heard this K4 handles bad sometimes, but never with an explanation for this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was info from a lecture to IPMS modelers in 2003 which was posted on a website. There was no further information as to exactly why he belived the center of gravity was altered.

HeinzBar
09-01-2005, 06:02 PM
S!,
The Luftwaffe didn't need a mirror because they didn't wear makeup http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HB

kameron1974
09-02-2005, 03:54 AM
Only softcodks and sunday drivers need mirrors.