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Grey_Mouser67
10-02-2005, 09:07 PM
Anyone notice how a 109 pilot is immune to Pilot kills from dead six? At least, since I've been paying attention for it, I've not been killed from dead six when flying a 109 (only F-4 and later since I've been watching) nor have I killed one from behind.

I did get a kill from a head on against AI, but it seems that the pilot is impervious to PK's.

Now every other aircraft I fly isn't like that except maybe the IL-2...odd comparison I'd say. Pk's are normal against Fw's, Jugs, Mustangs, Hellcats and Corsairs...all of which had a reputation of being stronger and more structurally durable and armored.

In addition, the later model 109's have bullet proof glass...seems like armor aught to be tougher than bullet proof glass...anyways was wondering if others had noticed the same thing and had some information regarding pilot armor in the 109 and other aircraft.

Badsight.
10-02-2005, 10:18 PM
while in past patches Bf-109s have been fragile , losing engines & oiling up the cockpit . . . .

Bf-109s have ALWAYS had a measure of strength from dead - dead six

its a waste of ammo to shoot one when your following level , especially considering how easy their motors are to smoke on slight deflection hits

Kuna15
10-02-2005, 10:41 PM
I can repeat what Badsight said I agree with him 100%. From dead 6 Bf-109s are tough but when they show profile we can cut 'em up, with for instance .50cals, in no time.

About PK I didn't noticed although some Spitfire MK.5C on my 6 (not really 'dead' 6) PKed me from 600m. I was in Bf-109G-2, but that was really bad luck + his great gunnery.

It is quite possible that Bf-109 has lower chance for dead 6 PK than some other planes...(also armoured).
A lot of players were talking about P-47D-27 (that model specifically) and PK. They were complaining about high chance for PK on D27 model unlike on D22 or D10.
I didn't really check that one out.

FritzGryphon
10-02-2005, 11:39 PM
I tested out the rear pilot armor on the 109K4 and P-47D27. Shooting M2, AP rounds only, from 50m range. About 10 degrees left of rear, and 10-15 degrees above. 6 trials each.

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With the 109K4, the pilot consistantly took 3 'headshots' to kill. Possibly 4-5 hits to the head, given I was firing two at a time. The armor could be penetrated, but reduced the damage to the pilot.

Firing from the side, the pilot is killed in one 'headshot'.

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With the P-47D27, the pilot armor would stop the M2 rounds completely. The 'headshot' message does not appear, and the ricochet flash effect (like you see often on the IL-2) is shown. The armor is more effective than that on the Bf-109.

However, the P-47 armored headrest is not as wide as that on the Bf-109. It was possible (and occured in all trials) to hit the side of the pilot's head. When this occured, the pilot died in one shot.

The other way the pilots could be killed from 6 o'clock, was to shoot past the armor with the explosive M2 rounds. The rounds blow up against the top of sides of the canopy, killing the pilot.

Generally speaking, the P-47 pilot seemed to die in fewer shots, as the headrest is too small. The Bf-109 armor glass protects a much wider area. Even though it can be penetrated, it causes the pilot to be injured rather than killed. This ties into my experiences online, as I usually end up with a red screen after being hosed down by M2 from behind.

The canopy is much larger on the P-47, and would make a wide net to catch any explosive rounds from cannons or machine guns. A MG151 round striking the top of the bubble canopy would almost certainly kill the pilot. The 109 cockpit is squat and flat, and is unlikely to be hit, especially from dead 6.



Tracks don't properly save gunner positions or arcade arrows, so you can play around with it yourself.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/guntestreal.mis

ECV56_Rolf
10-03-2005, 06:34 AM
When you say "Headshot" you mean the arrow going through the armor, and a lot of plane before, or a clean headshot?

carguy_
10-03-2005, 09:22 AM
What about pilot kills?You can wound the pilot,shoot controls,shoot gauges,shoot Kommandogerat,shoot throttle too.
In Me109 two areas are the most armored - directly in front and directly behind the pilot.As for other areas everything bigger than 8mm penetrates.

Kuna15
10-03-2005, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
When you say "Headshot" you mean the arrow going through the armor, and a lot of plane before, or a clean headshot?

I have noticed that sometimes HEADSHOT does not means neccesarily PK. It hits the pilot in the head, I think, but it isn't fatal wound.

FritzGryphon
10-03-2005, 04:01 PM
When you say "Headshot"

Yes, the 'headshot' message appears with every hit to the head, fatal or no.

If there is no armor, it is almost always fatal.

F19_Ob
10-03-2005, 05:17 PM
From dead six the plane usually breaks before pilot gets killed.
However, cannon hits always have one shrapnel-arrow that goes straight (arcademode) and if it reaches the pilot it dies or get hurt. Fighter armour wont hold against cannon fire.
One of the reason for why there arent more PK's from cannonfire from dead 6, on all planes ,is because of inpacts on the rear surfaces and edges such as elevator, rudder and tailplane.
This disables the shrapnel-arrows to reach the pilot= no PK.
This isn't speciffic to the 109 only.

Grey_Mouser67
10-03-2005, 05:46 PM
I'll keep paying attention to it...only hit my radar screen a month ago or so.

Seems like at least some others noticed the unusual toughness from dead six...so it wasn't my imagination. I've had as many as 5 arrows going through the pilot...but I've had that on other planes too without pilot kill so that didn't mean much to me...I just couldn't remember the last time I was Pk'd from six oclock in a 109...I could remember lots of Fw examples.