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Sirrith
05-24-2008, 06:34 AM
Well, I've been playing offline mostly, so I have no idea if this is an accomplishment or not, but I can successfully take on 4 average level AIs in 109F4s or a6m2-21s in my spit mk Vb. However, whenever I fly online, I get hit by 1 short burst from players over 300m away, and my wing falls off, or my fuselage gets cut in half. When I do manage to hit someone online, all I get are little bits flying off, even with cannon hits, and even when I hit them multiple times.

I'm aiming for the right spots, I think, the wing root and the engine/cockpit, and Im hitting the right spots, at least it shows Im hitting the right spots, but its not doing much.

What am I doing wrong?

PBNA-Boosher
05-24-2008, 06:51 AM
No, you don't suck. You're just not used to it. Offline play is entirely different than Online play, naturally. Offline, the AI follow established patterns based on criteria you give them by the input to your plane and its given conditions. Online, players make decisions based on their own aircraft, their squadron commander's orders, the mission objectives, and their own personal feelings. It's a lot to combine, very complicated, and that's why the human brain can generally outwit the AI. Humans are not logical.

Because of this, humans do unexpected things, which is exactly the reason why some pilots are good and some are not. You may know every combat trick in the book. You can loop (generally a bad idea), Immelmann, Split Ess, or Scissor your way through the sky but unless you add something to the mix your opponent will be able to follow you anywhere.

The best advice I can give is not to get into a dogfight at all. I know that sounds contradictory, but it really is true. Your aim as a fighter pilot is to maximize your kills while minimizing the threat to yourself. Stay high, spot your targets down low, and dive on them to make a high speed pass. The best way to practice this is in the QMB. Give yourself the advantage and put 4 unarmed enemy bombers as your target. Make diving passes on them. Try to concentrate your fire in one area. Right now you're probably not hitting with most of the ammo you fire. We can blame some of it on ping and packet loss, but most of it is probably flying off past your target. A real life pilot was a good shot if 20% of his shots fired hit the target. Find out what distance you like to fire at and adjust your convergence for that distance. You'll then need to learn to lead your target properly. The K-14 gunsight in the P-51D-20NA can help you with that. It will require precise control of all of your flight surfaces and takes work. Nobody said it would be easy.

Tully__
05-24-2008, 06:58 AM
Probably nothing. Online is a different animal.

There are a number of factors to consider:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>First, experienced human pilots are much better at estimating deflection shots than the offline AI are. If you're not flying straight but not turning hard enough for the AI to use their deflection shooting routine, they will miss every time. You can't rely on this when flying against humans.
<LI>When flying offline you have no lag to contend with. Though you're seeing good hits at your end, what the server sees will be slightly different. With time you'll get a feel for the slightly different aim required when flying online and suddenly find your hits are much more effective.
<LI>Humans are generally better pilots than AI in general. They use their aircraft better and understand the weaknesses of your aircraft better than the AI do. Expect this to show when they shoot at you. [/list]
For more specific advice you might need to tell us in more detail under what exact circumstances you're having difficulty, but it's normal for pilots who are experienced and do well against offline AI to find they're having a great deal of difficulty coming to grips with online human pilots.

strider1
05-24-2008, 07:06 AM
Shooting from too far away? Like the saying goes, when you think you are close enough, get closer!

Check your convergence settings. Learn how to judge distance to targets by how they fill the sight ring. There's a reason why the sight is a particular diameter.

Read and Practice. Nobody gets good at this without many hours of doing it to refine their skills. See here: Joint-Ops (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5011006166).

Best of luck!

Strider1

DKoor
05-24-2008, 07:38 AM
On most quake servers you'll be required to shoot from distance because sometimes you wont be able to follow hard maneuver that E/A will do when you get closer.
However if you in Spit jump someone in from above, you may wait until you are closer to riddle him.
People on such servers regularly shoot from 500m distance.

However on "realistic" like servers you would do better if you hold your fire until you get closer than 300m... because effect will be greater.
And E/A usually wont undertake evasives, because if he saw you coming he would already be evading your attack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Practice is the key to success... also you'll find that IL2 is completely different game on "realistic" like settings (no externals, cockpit view only, CEM)...

Also regarding your evasive maneuvers, be sure if you just flat turn hard, you'll be hit 9/10 times by experienced player! Those are some of the easiest shots there is!
All he need to do is put the aircraft's nose at one point of your projected flight path and open fire - you'll just run into his shower of bullets!
That's why it is always good to when you already choose to turn really hard, make some twisting in the maneuver too; another words don't hard turn flat! Especially in vertical plane. That'll get you killed many time on pit on servers, let alone on pit off where successful hitrate in deflection is logically - considerably higher.
I'm saying all this because that is what I see people doing on these servers all the time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif .
They probably got the idea that's a good evasive maneuver - offline http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Sirrith
05-24-2008, 09:24 AM
Boosher: I try to stay high and dive down on enemy whenever I fly, but I either never find anyone, or they're all at under 1000m and I cant spot them because Im too high, or if I fly too high and dive down, I have too much speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I guess I'll just have to practise on AI bombers to get altitude and angle right.

Tully:
well, theres no particular scenario where I have difficulties, its just whenever I happen to get hit (either after a TnB contest with another plane and his wingman comes in, or after a failed bounce, or after I climb back up and someone else happens to be waiting for me up there) it disables my plane 95% of the time after 1 short (less than 1 second) burst.

Strider:
I always try to shoot when Im in closer than 200m, I have my guns set to converge at 150, and I know approximately how to judge the distance. Maybe its because of my ping like Tully suggested, since I'm in Hong Kong now...

DKoor: I always play on realistic settings offline(externals on though, because I like looking at the pretty planes while im flying :P )
Online, I play on servers without the wonderwoman pit, but usually with externals on. all other things pretty much set to realistic.
For evading I try barrel rolling or skidding, but thats only when I have time to react, because most of the time I'm trying to fly with 1 wing or half a plane within 0.5 secs of being bounced :P

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-24-2008, 10:15 AM
The best advice I can give is not to get into a dogfight at all. I know that sounds contradictory, but it really is true.

The absolute best advice you can get right there and a tactic that was taught and practiced in real combat. If you find yourself constantly in what many consider a "dogfight" you have made a mistake. Gain experience online and try to always have the tactical advantage and you will fair much better no matter what plane your enemy is in. Just hang in there and take your lumps, trust me it will get better.

Welcome!

S!

Bearcat99
05-24-2008, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Sirrith:
Well, I've been playing offline mostly, so I have no idea if this is an accomplishment or not, but I can successfully take on 4 average level AIs in 109F4s or a6m2-21s in my spit mk Vb. However, whenever I fly online, I get hit by 1 short burst from players over 300m away, and my wing falls off, or my fuselage gets cut in half. When I do manage to hit someone online, all I get are little bits flying off, even with cannon hits, and even when I hit them multiple times.

I'm aiming for the right spots, I think, the wing root and the engine/cockpit, and Im hitting the right spots, at least it shows Im hitting the right spots, but its not doing much.

What am I doing wrong?

You might just suck.. for the moment at least... but the goods news is... we all sucked at some point or other and now many of us while we may no longer suck we still have a ways to go... so don't feel so bad... Besides as so many have said.. there are so many other factors that will influence online fighting... I suggest that you get out of dogfight mode.. and try flying some coops...

DKoor
05-24-2008, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Sirrith:
For evading I try barrel rolling or skidding, but thats only when I have time to react, because most of the time I'm trying to fly with 1 wing or half a plane within 0.5 secs of being bounced :P http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif he he

Depends on server you are flying...

Here's one scenario.

You fly FW-190A... let's say, 5 for instance.

You spot LA-5 in the distance (wonderwoman server, 5km distance usually, you have arrows http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif ).

When you spot an arrow go up (to hold energy basically, as much as possible) then climb a bit so that the gap in alt isn't too big (less that 1,5km preferably).

Now if he goes head on you from above just point guns at him and shoot, rip him to bits.

If he doesn't, and goes up maneuvering on your tail, just point nose down (shallow dive) and fly away in your home direction. You'll outrun him.
At this point you may separate enough from him then wait for friendlies, or take another head on and wait for his possible mistake... choice is up to you.

Point of the whole story.
You know your aircraft greatest strength (guns, speed) and you are using it.
In both situations you are in advantage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif in spite of him having an alt advantage over you!

Another example.
Fly a Spitfire Mk.V vs FW-190A4.
It's an interesting matchup...
Spit will generally be in trouble if he finds himself at lower altitude than FW.
You can't outrun a FW...
Heck you can't even outturn it at high speed!
Now if the situation is same like in prev scenario (with FW-190A5) you don't stand much chances best thing would be a sharp tunr in FW direction which includes a barrel roll to disrupt FW aim a bit.
Once you start turn you should actually persist in it, if you break to try to reverse the turn, you'll likely get shot because you will be a target which requires almost no deflection for a short amount of time. Also your pursuer will probably "catch up" with your turn and get another chance for shot at you.

The worse thing you can do, and what I see often online, is to actually misjudge the speed and distance between you and E/A... in a sense that he will probably get into a sharp climb after he makes a pass on you, and if you try to match his climb (in order to shoot him) you'll likely to stall way way before him... and so if you stall at 500-600m below him, that is a dream come true for FW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif . I know I got loads of kills in such way in various aircraft online.

What you should do (if you chose offense) is to shorten the gap in altitude between you and FW, shorten the gap in energy... once you do that you have some chance.
However that is extremely tough thing to do, because you'd need to survive several passes undamaged for that which is near-miracle situation vs experience player.

If you choose defense, your rate of survival may be better. Your goal is to deny him of as any passes on you as possible.

Anyhow... if I may offer you the same suggestion as Bearcat.
Fly coops. They are much more goal oriented than DF's.

quasar666
05-24-2008, 06:54 PM
Just fly online and have some fun, I suck pretty hard. But i do no care at all. I like to fly Il-2's and get blown out of the sky all the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Or just practice or something. IDK!

SeaFireLIV
05-24-2008, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:


You might just suck..

Bah. Just what I was going to say. Except I was going to leave out the `might` and the `just`.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Looks like we`re getting an influx of new users who`re experiencing the shock of flying a realistic sim... as many of us did 4-5 years ago.

quasar666
05-24-2008, 08:26 PM
Bah humbug, n00bs, i hate them so much. We aces looks so bad because of them. You sure are not welcome in the officers hall.

Go sit in the rain. twit.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

M_Gunz
05-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Sirrith:
What am I doing wrong?

You did the most right thing possible just by asking that and being willing to change what you do.

quasar666
05-24-2008, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sirrith:
What am I doing wrong?

You did the most right thing possible just by asking that and being willing to change what you do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great answer without answering anything at all.

You are my hero. ****!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-24-2008, 11:23 PM
You did the most right thing possible just by asking that and being willing to change what you do.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

The fact that your not making the mistake so many make (including veteran players) by blaming it on the aircraft tells me in due time you will do just fine. Hang in there.

S!

stalkervision
05-24-2008, 11:48 PM
On'line and off-line play are two completley different animals. You are throwing yourself in to a big shark pool and your only a minnow still. It will be a while till you can come away unscathed.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif My advice, get and stay at very VERY high altituded in your plane ( U-2 range) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and zoom down to pick off targets of opportunity at mid altitudes. Then climb back to altitude in a zoom climb. ABSOLUTELY NO DOGFIGHTING YET! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Just don't rip off the wings diving down to do it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also if you miss your target because of your extreamly high speed let the guy just go. Zoom climb back to altitude and wait for another victum unless you damaged the previous guy bad. Then you can dive down for anther diving pass at him.

This style of air combat will get you very far. Many top ww 2 aces practiced it. The key is learning to get hits at close range before you crash into your victums.

I call this high speed drive by aerial shooting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Gnomie
05-25-2008, 05:07 AM
I've seen this advice many times before too: "don't get in a dogfight, you're better off getting altitude advantage and make quick passes before moving out of the danger zone again". Isn't this pretty much the definition of boom-and-zooming? And isn't that considered to be among the more difficult techniques there are, and therefore not very advisable for novices?

I've seen people recommending beginners (like me) to stick to more maneouverable aircraft like the Spit and the La-7, which are TnB-planes. Yet a turn-and-burn fight very easily becomes a "classic dogfight" where nobody has a significant energy advantage, which people advise against. There seems to be a slight contradiction here...

What I've been trying to do lately is something in between: I've bee flying the La-7 or Yak (which seems to have slightly better high-speed performance, and a good rate of climb). I normally climb to maybe 1000-1500 meters above my enemies, single out a target and swoop down on them at maybe 500-600 kp/h, coming up on their tail or at a small deflection angle, firing a burst and then deflecting out of their way and climbing up a little, before coming down again. (I think this might be called a yo-yo..?) The idea is to maintain a slight energy advantage all the way, but not as extreme as in full boom-and-zooming.

Is this the tactic that you're recommending for beginners? So far I think it's working pretty well, but I need to improve my aim for it to be very efficient. That should improve with time, I guess.

DKoor
05-25-2008, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You did the most right thing possible just by asking that and being willing to change what you do.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

The fact that your not making the mistake so many make (including veteran players) by blaming it on the aircraft tells me in due time you will do just fine. Hang in there.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wait until he tries a P-51 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

M_Gunz
05-25-2008, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by quasar666:
Great answer without answering anything at all.

You should talk.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2008, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by quasar666:
Great answer without answering anything at all.

You should talk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was complimenting your answer Max.

Hangman68
05-25-2008, 08:34 AM
Havok's advice is dead on, what i do is pick a base far from the action, cycle through my views for the highest target then try and clime above, then enter the furball. Boom n Zoom is more disapline then a hard tactic to learn, and yes the 51 is a disapline bird to fly, i ate more dirt flying it then any other a/c, i still eat alot but not as much as i had when i began http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Sirrith
05-25-2008, 09:38 AM
Well, I guess I'll try that then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and I dont fly the p51 because I dont like it, hehe *hides from hoards of angry p51 lovers*

M_Gunz
05-25-2008, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by quasar666:
Great answer without answering anything at all.

You should talk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was complimenting your answer Max. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I guess the ****! part threw me. Sorry bout that Quasar!

stalkervision
05-25-2008, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Gnomie:
I've seen this advice many times before too: "don't get in a dogfight, you're better off getting altitude advantage and make quick passes before moving out of the danger zone again". Isn't this pretty much the definition of boom-and-zooming? And isn't that considered to be among the more difficult techniques there are, and therefore not very advisable for novices?

I've seen people recommending beginners (like me) to stick to more maneouverable aircraft like the Spit and the La-7, which are TnB-planes. Yet a turn-and-burn fight very easily becomes a "classic dogfight" where nobody has a significant energy advantage, which people advise against. There seems to be a slight contradiction here...

What I've been trying to do lately is something in between: I've bee flying the La-7 or Yak (which seems to have slightly better high-speed performance, and a good rate of climb). I normally climb to maybe 1000-1500 meters above my enemies, single out a target and swoop down on them at maybe 500-600 kp/h, coming up on their tail or at a small deflection angle, firing a burst and then deflecting out of their way and climbing up a little, before coming down again. (I think this might be called a yo-yo..?) The idea is to maintain a slight energy advantage all the way, but not as extreme as in full boom-and-zooming.

Is this the tactic that you're recommending for beginners? So far I think it's working pretty well, but I need to improve my aim for it to be very efficient. That should improve with time, I guess.

It appears this slight varation is working for you Gnomie. That is all that is important. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BigC208
05-27-2008, 12:10 PM
You do suck for now! You and I both by the way. I have been playing Il2 since it came out and have been of and on online for 4 years. Off line I'am the Ace of the base...Online I'm just fodder for the first 3 or 4 weeks when I get back online. Even when at my best I still get exited when I score a kill, it just does not happen all that often. Don't dispair there's hope for us all. Just play the game a lot and you'll be better than 90% of the folks who show up every now and then.

-HH-Quazi
05-27-2008, 12:44 PM
In either tatic, speed is key. I find it harder to maintain speed in a TnB tatic because I get so caught up focusing and keeping an eye out on the ac I am df'ing that I allow my ac to loose enough speed to put me in a detrimental disadvantage. Therefore I generally like to use the BnZ tatic so I can out distance myself from my adversary in an efficient manner after making a high speed pass & taking my shots. Although give me a A6M5 b or c & I will be more than happy to take my chances in a TnB energy loosing tatic, hehe.

Gnomie
05-27-2008, 01:04 PM
What gun convergence distance do you guys use for BnZ? I've seen some .ntrk files where the pilot opens fire and makes lots of hits at ~ 400 meters, but I think this sounds very high.. yet because of the speed difference you don't have many seconds to fire before going past.

In general, do the guns loose nearly all their effectiveness if firing at a target beyond the gun convergence distance? (that sounds logical..)