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CorsairDill
02-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Anyone have any helpful tips, or links, to some tips on flying and combat flight manuevers in Pacific Fighters?

I'm mostly a new pilot, and can't seem to shake any bad guys and once they get behind me, I'm pretty much dead where I fly.

Any help is appreciated!

CorsairDill
02-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Anyone have any helpful tips, or links, to some tips on flying and combat flight manuevers in Pacific Fighters?

I'm mostly a new pilot, and can't seem to shake any bad guys and once they get behind me, I'm pretty much dead where I fly.

Any help is appreciated!

LEXX_Luthor
02-22-2005, 11:18 AM
Depends on what you fly and what you fly against. Tell more.


Wellcome to Forgotten Board

CorsairDill
02-22-2005, 11:24 AM
Well I'm not really talking about any plane in particular, since I'm flying single player campaigns. I just mean how do you generally shake enemies? I can't get one off my tail at all once they get behind me, no matter what I do, and I'm just curious to know some tips from some veteran PF pilots out there.

LEXX_Luthor
02-22-2005, 11:37 AM
Zeroes? Corsairs? Depends on what you fly, and what you fly against. Tell more.

EJGr.Ost_chamel
02-22-2005, 11:59 AM
I do not agree with Lexx, that you have to tell first, what you want to fly, before you start reading http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .
There are a lot of basic concepts of Air combat, that do not depend on the situation. Here are three links that I would recommend to you:

http://www.speakeasy.org/~mefletcher/warbirds.html
http://www.musketeers.org/training.htm
http://www.il2flying.com/content/category/1/76/2/

The materials in first link were written for WarBirds - so anything dealing with abilities of plane types might be different in IL-2. But anyway the most things on this excellent side can be applied to IL-2 too!

Greetings
Chamel

Kapt_A
02-22-2005, 12:02 PM
What Lexx means CorsairDill is each plane has it's 'tricks' that gives it an advantage and Disadvantage.I'm sure if you choose 2 aircraft many will explain which is better and why.

chris455
02-22-2005, 12:24 PM
Lexx is right.
You flying the Corsair with a Zeke on your 6?
I may tell you to extend away horizontally, using your superior speed, if he's not too close already. Or, I may tell you to dive, and roll to the right. Or split-S.

The exact same advice if you are the one flying the Zero will almost certainly get you killed.

Give us a scenario.

Stiglr
02-22-2005, 12:45 PM
Learn two key concepts:

1) Energy Management: whether you're turning 'n burning, or booming and zooming, or a combination, you're using or abusing energy. You need to learn this if you're really going to shine and stay alive.

2) Situational awareness: You have to know who the greatest threat to you is, at ALL times, and manage the situations of all aircraft in the air (yes, including noticing the ones you don't see right away). And the situation changes every few seconds. You even need to learn to manage which planes you ignore in situations where you can't keep it all in your head. You have to learn when you have the advantage, when you're disadvantaged, when to strike, when to run.

The various tactical maneuvers, such as immelmans, split-Ses, max perf turns, slips, barrel rolls, scissors, vector rolls, pursuit rolls, wingovers, hammerheads, etc., those are all learnable... but alone, they're useless unless you have a good grasp of the two main concepts above.

Texas LongHorn
02-22-2005, 09:47 PM
Hey CorsairDill, while the aforementioned energy management and situational awareness are super important, so is good theory. I recommend picking up a copy of "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert L. Shaw. This book is "the" bible for fighter combat, quite literally. If it's good enough for the boys at Top Gun school it's good enough for me <ggg.> It's published by the Naval Institute Press and worth every penny of its purchase price. All the best, LongHorn

EnGaurde
02-22-2005, 09:52 PM
1. never stop looking around

2. dont forget to look around.

3. force overshoots with chopping the throttle.

4. look everywhere at once.

5. learn to fly on the verge of stall, and to recover from a spin.

6. look around you at all times.

7. shoot only when you are close enough to see the country insignia on the wings or fuselage.

8. look around. Always.

9. have fun. And look around.

fordfan25
02-22-2005, 10:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
1. never stop looking around

2. dont forget to look around.

3. force overshoots with chopping the throttle.

4. look everywhere at once.

5. learn to fly on the verge of stall, and to recover from a spin.

6. look around you at all times.

7. shoot only when you are close enough to see the country insignia on the wings or fuselage.

8. look around. Always.

9. have fun. And look around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol yep.

o and dont fly in servers with ki-84C's there tottal BS unless your going to fly the ki-84C...then its completly fair http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOL

god i hate KI-84s ...if only i had my trusty
-4 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

geetarman
02-23-2005, 08:32 AM
What Stigler said. And - learn good gunnery techniques. All the fancy flying in the world will do you no good if you can't shoot the bad guy down.

MrQBerrt
02-23-2005, 03:05 PM
Here is a suggestion that will most certainly not be popular with the crowd here.

Put yourself on invincible mode and fly a quick mission against 1 bandit (on veteran or ace). Let him get behind you and start practicing different moves on him. You'll get a lot more time to practice this way as you wont ever get shot down. Then you can see what works and what doesn't. It's hard to see what works when you get shot down within the first 30 seconds of each dog fight.

Also there are several standard defensive manuevers like the scissors, split-S, barrel-roll, etc. A lot of web sites talk about these maneuvers. If you want descriptions of these, ask and I or someone else will give you a good description or link.

One good beginners technique is to start rolling (as long as you have a plane that rolls fairly well). Then pick a random time to pull up. You are a bit harder to hit while rolling, and it makes it hard to tell which direction you will pull up into.

Tully__
02-24-2005, 02:59 AM
Browse through the articles at SimHQ's Air Combat Library (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html), even the stuff aimed at jet sims is useful and the articles aimed at prop sims are excellent.

VF-3Thunderboy
02-24-2005, 05:23 PM
Corsairdill, keep it simple.

Use altitude to your advantage. Dont get into the bad habit of dogfighting 100 feet off the ground. Start at 22,000 ft, and dive onto 1-2 then 3-4 planes at 16,000 feet, have 1-4 wingmen to take some heat off.
Practice that and in a month you should get pretty good, in 2-3 months youll catchup to almost everyone.

Stiglr
02-24-2005, 11:09 PM
2-3 months???

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

You gotta be joking. Some of us have been at this for YEARS. It takes a long time to learn these hard, hard lessons. Lots of virtual deaths, too. It doesn't happen in a few months.

But the process is a lot of the fun.

markiz26
02-25-2005, 02:55 AM
I have been flying both p51's against me-109 online and everytime I get into a dogfight I get shot down. I absolutely can not shake a me-109 off my tail. P51 doesn't turn as hard and I still cannot find out it's advantage over me-109. If there is any hope for me can anyone help me please!?

Gatt59
02-25-2005, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:


3. force overshoots with chopping the throttle.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VF-3Thunderboy
02-25-2005, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2-3 months???
You gotta be joking.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, 2-3 months with proper tactics and you will off to a pretty good start.

2-3 months with improper tactics and youll be 2-3 months behind.

It took me over a year to figure out altitude in CFS2. a whole friggin YEAR + change. Alot of the CFS2 players still havent figured that out yet, and what is left of CFS3 online shows little improvement, from what I hear...

but yea, thats 2-3 months, 3-5 hours a day,every day as I recall...

I have trained in CFS2, and with PROPER tactics, and some serious puter time, 2-3 months will get you up to speed real quick, even with newbies- Ive seen it alot of times. The main problem with these sims is doing the WRONG THING for months on end.

2-3 months with proper tactics will bring you up to speed. Its important not to waste time doing wrong things! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stiglr
02-25-2005, 11:41 AM
No, just knowing the tactics doesn't work at first. You have to experience it (you know, those countless sorties where you keep getting killed the same way, until the light comes on, you finally get the lesson, do things the right way next time, and then you survive or get a kill?).

I agree that working within a squad format that places and emphasis on training will cut the time dramatically. But, I also feel there are more "good squads" out there that are full of hot sticks who can't teach the concepts than there are squads who can.

All in all, it's a long, hard, sometimes frustrating road. But that's why this sim stays on your drive and holds your interst far longer than your average shoot 'em up FPS.

CreaseKeeper
02-25-2005, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gatt59:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:


3. force overshoots with chopping the throttle.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, good, at least I'm not the only one that thinks that advice is insane.

-S-

Drunken_Moose
02-25-2005, 12:22 PM
Oh yea guys, another question! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When I'm at 10,000m, what do I do? You really can't see anyone from up there. So...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif You dive randomly on an unexisting prey then pull back up if you don't find anything?

Thanks!

TacticalYak3
02-25-2005, 12:31 PM
With respect to those who have posted, but your approach is rather flawed. You really ought to acquire the skills necessary to ensure that he doesn't get on your six - that's the key to success in this game.

To be successful often just requires a lot of work watching for bandits attempting to acquire your six. Of course then there are tactics to deal with regarding how to keep a bandit out of your rear quantrant, not to mention experience in how to approach a 1 vs 1 or multi-bogey situation.

Regards

VF-3Thunderboy
02-25-2005, 04:39 PM
...Basicly, if your a newbie, and going at it in say a Corsair or even the Hellcat at 6000 ft, and you take on 2 zeros at 6000 feet, your setting yourself up for the exact failure as stiglr speaks so warmly of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif,and then I can buy your PF on e-bay for $15,00 bucks, thanks...

YOu need to set up missions that are fun to fly, and teach you something about flying.

So again Corsairdill, I highly reccomend you get started on the correct foot.

Set up yourself and a wingman in a Hellcat at 22,000 ft. Set the zero at rookie at 18,000 ft.

and work on that for a week. Then add more zeros/wingmen, and in 3 months you will be getting good at this. Then try Corsair, Wildcat


K*I*S*S

This is the stuff that all these guys wished they had learned early on...but thunder was flying CFS2, not Il2...too bad... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
Learn to watch your AIRSPEED, and understand how fast you are going. You need to keep it high if possible.

Then work into different setups. It may take a while to get gunhits also. the Il2 series is a bit more difficult at first. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thats what you need to do to get this baby rolling. Altitude, and attitude!! I guarantee it, or Ill buy back your PF for $15.00 bucks on e-bay!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Crouchy Eagle
02-26-2005, 09:55 AM
I'm also a NOOBS to this game for 3 months now (expect to retain the title Mr. Newbie for a long time). However, I have improved lately and here are the steps that I took to become better (didn't get kill by AI anymore and didn't get kill in the first 3 minutes during an Online session and was able to shake off the enemy a few times):

- Read tutorials from http://www.il2flying.com/content/section/1/2/. Read and practice, read and practice.
- Flew P51 exclusively off-line for long time just to learn the plane's behavior against AI pilots in all situations . Turn on wing tip's smoke and try different flying maneuvers (wing tip€s smoke makes all maneuver visible when you review the fly in the saved tracks. I gave up on P51 because the plan is so sensitive to the spin and stall. Switch over German Bf109. I loved it: very stable and its climbing ability is awesome. You can shake a tailed AI pilot easily with the climbing (still trying with Online real pilots).
- Record online flying sessions and watch how you get kills, how they zoomed on you and many more things that you could think of.

Summary: I€m to go read more, practice more, get killed more but I€ll not give up and will enjoy my 1st victory (may be in a year). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

joe3rd
02-27-2005, 10:19 PM
Well bud what the guy's are saying about your planes speed/energy is correct, Lose your speed/energy=losing the fight most of the time.
Of coarse just like everything else there are exceptions to the rule above,*Noteabley the IL2's ground hugging slow flying tactic's.
As far as situtational awareness goes that comes with experience only.
The IL2 series (F/B,A.E.P.,P/F) has many aircraft,enough to confuse and boggle your mind as well as fustrate you.
Most have the advantage/disadvantage senarios
your best bet would be to narrow down your aircraft choices to two or three planes,and GET TO KNOW YOUR PLANES! Know their stong points and weaknesses then use these to there full potential.
In closing you may also want to ask some of the more experienced prop simmers for simm
settings i.e. stick settings,key commands as
having these set and knowing from memory what key to use when will greatly improve your overall not only kills but flight ability.
example f6 veiw enemey key command.
Remember it's a Computer Program that simulates
Virtual Flight and Combat.
Thus garbage key commands in to your Computer=
Doing "The Roasted Wennie Thyngie" or garbage out.
The Key Commands, Learn em Set em up all of em!
And Learn when and how to use em!!!!

EnGaurde
02-27-2005, 11:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> OK, good, at least I'm not the only one that thinks that advice is insane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

baaah ahahah ok Experten, all'y'all stick to only a few ideas and toss out anything else!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

so overshoots are not a valid tactic???

answer: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

the saddest part is you dont consider its even worth trying when everything else might have failed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

all i can say is, when speed and height zoomers have missed me on their first gunnery pass, which i bet on surviving more often than not as ive busted my butt looking for them in the first place http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif , they pop out in front.

dont always work, but then again dont always not work enuff times to keep me trying it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

CreaseKeeper
02-27-2005, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> OK, good, at least I'm not the only one that thinks that advice is insane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

baaah ahahah ok Experten, all'y'all stick to only a few ideas and toss out anything else!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

so overshoots are _not_ a valid tactic???

answer: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

the saddest part is you dont consider its even worth trying when everything else might have failed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

all i can say is, when speed and height zoomers have missed me on their first gunnery pass, which i bet on surviving more often than not as ive busted my butt looking for them in the first place http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif , they pop out in front.

dont always work, but then again dont always not work enuff times to keep me trying it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cutting throttle as a LAST and DESPERATE attempt MIGHT be a valid tactic. Chopping the throttle and giving up valuable E in a fight is pretty much suicide IMHO. If someone chops throttle on me, I grin as I high YO-YO and come back down behind them as they sit there helpless and blow them away.

Top Gun tactics are stuff movies are made of.

-S-

EnGaurde
02-27-2005, 11:49 PM
i guess its down to aircraft type, ive had enough of euro theatres of ops for a while and currently fly PTO.

my zero just cant outrun anything, pretty much.

so what good is using running as a fallback tactic.

you can yo yo hi or low if you want, but if i see you try, ill turn any which way, pick the nose up and shoot you half way thru it.

If youre yo yo-ing on a zero itd wanna be a fast zero, as a slow one flown by anything near a competant pilot will kill you for being smack bang in the midst of its environment. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

If it was me in that 'cat, id be standing crouched in that cockpit, smacking my hand on the outside of the fuselage whilst shouting yah, yah, giddup... and trying to fly very far away, also leaving yo yos to movie stars as you suggest?

meh.

overshoots work for me as i cant rely on speed, and i can gain energy back fast enough to keep me satisfied. Mebbe as useful E for a Zero is much lower than for the wildcat.... but then youd already know that.

CreaseKeeper
02-28-2005, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
i guess its down to aircraft type, ive had enough of euro theatres of ops for a while and currently fly PTO.

my zero just cant outrun anything, pretty much.

so what good is using running as a fallback tactic.

you can yo yo hi or low if you want, but if i see you try, ill turn any which way, pick the nose up and shoot you half way thru it.

If youre yo yo-ing on a zero itd wanna be a fast zero, as a slow one flown by anything near a competant pilot will kill you for being smack bang in the midst of its environment. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

If it was me in that 'cat, id be smacking my hand on the outside of the fuselage whilst shouting yah, yah, giddup... and trying to fly very far away, also leaving yo yos to movie stars as you suggest?

meh.

overshoots work for me as i cant rely on speed, and i can gain energy back fast enough to keep me satisfied. Mebbe as useful E for a Zero is much lower than for the wildcat.... but then youd already know that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty much all I fly is the 5a when I can, but mainly Zekes.

I would NEVER cut my throttle to get a con to overshoot me EVER, but that's me. I E fight as much in a zeke as I do a 'sair, as E is valuable to me. As for a yo-yo, that is one of the most used dogfighting techniques there is, and if done right, will reseat you on a cons 6, no matter what maneuver they try and pull off while you do it.

If throttle chopping works for you, then by all means continue to use it, but suggesting a newbie try it against anyone with half the skills of a chimp is mean, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-S-

HotelBushranger
02-28-2005, 04:25 AM
Do all you people seriously think 22,000 feet is NORMAL dogfightin altitude?

*Feints* Oh my...

Far out, I NEVER go higher then 5000 metres, which is what about 12,500-15000 feet? I don't see the point of flying soooo high, it takes ages to get up there, there's nothing to see but contrails, (which also gives off your position), and last but definitely most important, YOU CANT SEE THE GROUND! Who would wanna fight the evil axis without enjoying beautiful scenery?

Mad, stark-raving mad...

Acidcrash_112th
02-28-2005, 07:30 AM
indeed, but some aircraft perform better at high altitude than at low/mid altitude

basically its all about flying to your aircrafts advantages, forcing the enemy to fight on your terms, not you on theirs

Stiglr
02-28-2005, 10:28 AM
Bush Ranger wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I NEVER go higher then 5000 metres, which is what about 12,500-15000 feet? I don't see the point of flying soooo high, it takes ages to get up there... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoken like a guy who has a (poor climbing) P-40 in his signature graphic. It's thinking like that that got lots of Allied pilots killed in the early going. Their planes couldn't bother to struggle up to 20K feet, which is where the Japanese bombers were, and the Zeros above them. So they got their @rses handed to them.

Chennault was the first to realize that a P-40 with altitude and airspeed could deal with the Claudes, Oscars, Nates and "Zeros", and that explains the Flying Tigers' successes.

Altitude is LIFE. It's potential energy that you can trade for maneuver speed, for maneuver space, and to escape in. Down on the deck turning circles, you soon find that you can't go down any further, and then you've had it.

Myself, I make sure to have 3km of air under me before even bothering to go look for trouble.

VF-3Thunderboy
02-28-2005, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do all you people seriously think 22,000 feet is NORMAL dogfightin altitude? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im talking a begginer and mission builder here, not online.

I think its a bit low for a good dogfighting scenario.

Its for advanced pilots...your probably correct on that...Thats why you should start with altitude early.

This is for advice to a rookie. Your saying he should do horizontal combat, set himself up as a TARGET, and not learn proper piloting skills?? Thats exactly what hes trying to avoid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

You should be able to start missions at 25,000 feet, cant you??

Drunken_Moose
02-28-2005, 12:13 PM
I experienced vertical turning alot yesterday against an Average AI. (Flying upside down for a while before diving back onto the target, or where I think it is).

Is that a valid figure? I do not loose much speed, I keep it at aroud 280-300kmh.