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tolodada
06-04-2005, 12:46 PM
Hi everybody,

was just playing around a little offline.
Flying a FW190D, I had to realize that a spit from 1942 outclimbed me without problems, even at 7000m.

How realistic is that ? What am I doing wrong ?
Is it the same online ?

Thx for any hint !

DRAGON_2_GO
06-04-2005, 12:50 PM
Well, the 190 had a reputation for it's bad climbing performance. You weren't flying wrong but your tactics were, if you let yourself be out-climbed.

WOLFMondo
06-04-2005, 12:52 PM
190's don't climb bad! :P They do if the AoA is too high.

Fly at a different angle. The 190's climb best around 350kph and a shallow climb. At that speed and a shallow angle you'll leave the Spitfire behind.

ICDP
06-04-2005, 03:12 PM
Don't use the enemy AI as a yardstick. The AI don't blackout, overheat, or suffer from normal stalls. They get a massive boost in performance in ALL areas.

I can mostly live with this because if they weren't able to cheat they would be dead meat for even a semi decent human pilot.

At slower speeds a Spitfire Vb will outclimb most the Fw's, so keep it fast (over 400kph).

VW-IceFire
06-04-2005, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by tolodada:
Hi everybody,

was just playing around a little offline.
Flying a FW190D, I had to realize that a spit from 1942 outclimbed me without problems, even at 7000m.

How realistic is that ? What am I doing wrong ?
Is it the same online ?

Thx for any hint !
FW190s have their best climb rate at a much higher speed than other fighters. At 300kph to 350kph they get their best speed/climb setup...while the Spitfires is considerably lower around 230-250kph. If you climb at his speed, he wins...if you climb at yours, he looses.

ImpStarDuece
06-04-2005, 07:32 PM
What Spitfire IXc do we have in the game? Is it a Merlin 61 engined mark with 12 or 15lbs boost or a Merlin 66 engined Spitfire IXc running at 18lbs boost? The Merlin 61 appeared in July 1942 and the Merlin 66 appeared in early March 1943.

At low altitude the extra boost gives the Merlin 66 engined IX a serious kick to max continous climb and level speed . It adds about 900 feet per minute maximum continous climb below 13,000 feet and about 25mph below 10,000 feet.

Best climb speed for a Spitfire is about 260 kph IAS, best climb speed for a 190 is about 340 IAS. So in a slow climb the Spitfire really will catch the 190. At higher speeds the smaller, thinner profiled wing of the 190 is superior in a climb.

Tachyon1000
06-04-2005, 11:39 PM
Not to be a ********, but how is it that you folks know about optimal climbing speeds, etc for these planes? Are your sources included in the game or are you utilizing other resources??

ImpStarDuece
06-05-2005, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Tachyon1000:
Not to be a ********, but how is it that you folks know about optimal climbing speeds, etc for these planes? Are your sources included in the game or are you utilizing other resources??

Your not being a ******** http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There is a stack of information regarding performance figures out on the internet as well as a lot of incredibly detailed and accurate books.

I have about 150 bookmarks for WW2 aviation sights, everything from ammunition and weapons through to pilot accounts and official performance trials.

Some of the bettter ones are;

Spitfire performances tests; (http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/)

WWII Airpower (http://www.ww2guide.com/guns.shtml)

Combat Tactics in the Pacific (http://rhinobytes.com/haze/mcguire.htm)

Tony Williams MG and Ammunition site (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm)

WWII Aviation Essay Page (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html)

General Military Archive (http://yarchive.net/mil/index.html)

You also might want to look up IL2Compare, which although not 100% right all of the time, is a good general source for turn times, climb rates, level speed and climb speeds. The latest version is 2.05 for PF 3.04. Hardballs Aircraft viewer is also really good as is IL2 Wingman, though it's only in a Beta stage.

Check the IL2 Essential sticky at the top of the General Discussion page.

EPP_Gibbs
06-05-2005, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
What Spitfire IXc do we have in the game? Is it a Merlin 61 engined mark with 12 or 15lbs boost or a Merlin 66 engined Spitfire IXc running at 18lbs boost? The Merlin 61 appeared in July 1942 and the Merlin 66 appeared in early March 1943.

At low altitude the extra boost gives the Merlin 66 engined IX a serious kick to max continous climb and level speed . It adds about 900 feet per minute maximum continous climb below 13,000 feet and about 25mph below 10,000 feet.

Best climb speed for a Spitfire is about 260 kph IAS, best climb speed for a 190 is about 340 IAS. So in a slow climb the Spitfire really will catch the 190. At higher speeds the smaller, thinner profiled wing of the 190 is superior in a climb.

(1) Look at the boost dial in game. It will tell you.

(2) Thin profile 190 wing? Do you mean thickness? I thought the Spit had one of the thinnest wings in the business. Thinner than a 109, certainly. It's one of the reasons it could be dived to very high speeds.

WOLFMondo
06-05-2005, 07:06 AM
The boost dial doesn't always tell the truth. Some dials don't work and some are 100% correct but dont' display correctly due to this.

The Spitfire IX's and VIII's we have I think are at 18lbs boost.

NorrisMcWhirter
06-05-2005, 06:17 PM
tolo: don't climb vs a Spit unless you've made a high speed pass on him and you have plenty of energy advantage (you are diving in on him at speed and he is climbing or slow).

If you don't have a large energy advantage and still (perhaps unwisely) feel the need to climb, make sure your speed is at least 350kmh as you should both outclimb and outrun him; when you've placed a decent distance between yourself and him (>3km), turn into it for a head on shot or try to climb over it for a bnz.

Ta,
Norris

tigertalon
06-06-2005, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by DRAGON_2_GO:
Well, the 190 had a reputation for it's bad climbing performance.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Here is a quote from the comparative trial of the Spitfire VB with the [captured] Focke-Wulf 190A3 (pilot Arnim Faber, landed at Pembrey, 23.06.1942) , flown by the Air Fighting Development Unit at Duxford in July 1942.



Climb:The climb of the FW 190 is superior to that of the Spitfire VB at all heights.

The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the FW 190 is considerably steeper. Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the FW 190 is about 450 ft/min better up to 25,000'. With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the FW 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the FW 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it.



Don't judge WW2 airplanes by their performance in this sim. Especially not Fw190 and spitfire (maybe in 4.0, but not in 3.04).

Asgeir_Strips
06-06-2005, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRAGON_2_GO:
Well, the 190 had a reputation for it's bad climbing performance.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Here is a quote from the comparative trial of the Spitfire VB with the [captured] Focke-Wulf 190A3 (pilot Arnim Faber, landed at Pembrey, 23.06.1942) , flown by the Air Fighting Development Unit at Duxford in July 1942.



Climb:The climb of the FW 190 is superior to that of the Spitfire VB at all heights.

The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the FW 190 is considerably steeper. Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the FW 190 is about 450 ft/min better up to 25,000'. With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the FW 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the FW 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it.



Don't judge WW2 airplanes by their performance in this sim. Especially not Fw190 and spitfire (maybe in 4.0, but not in 3.04). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WOLFMondo
06-06-2005, 09:32 AM
Which Spitfire VB where they testing against? There were allot of different VB's with different engines, superchargers and boost pressures. I think one of the VB's we have is one of the ones used uptil 1944 with the suped up low altitude supercharger.

Against AI is one thing but I've been out climbed easily by 190A4's online while in a VB.

VW-IceFire
06-06-2005, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Tachyon1000:
Not to be a ********, but how is it that you folks know about optimal climbing speeds, etc for these planes? Are your sources included in the game or are you utilizing other resources??
1) Some of us spend alot of time practicing in one or two planes. You get to know your plane by flying it, reading about it, and getting a sense of how it really works. Then you fly it like that and you start to see what its good at and what its not
2) Use a program called IL2 Compare. Its not perfect but its a good basic way to tell various performance levels.

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/IL2_PF/pf_essential_files.htm#018

3) We've apparently got a late 1942 Spitfire Vb...representing the Spitifres that were delievered to the VVS (Soviet AirForce) and used mostly in 1943. That compared with the data in IL2 Compare suggests that the version we have climbs better, particularly the LF Vb, than the FW190A-4 and most other versions of the FW190. But thats not the whole story either. FW190s were infamous for their energy advantage approach, roll over dive and slash attack, and zoom climb returns to altitude. Although not perfectly represented in the game, any FW190 pilot, if flying properly, will walk all over any Mark Vb...even if its later than the ones often talked about in comparison between FW190 and the Mark Vb.

Some more fuel in the fire.

No doubt we'll see a whole 9 page post about Spitfires VS 190s and modeling attributes of both. Its my understanding that 4.0 changes much of this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif