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View Full Version : Anyone tried the Bombing/Ricochet thing yet??



fluke39
08-13-2003, 04:47 PM
i was kinda hoping it may have been possibly a typo and refered to bullets ricocheting off tarmac etc..

anyone tried it at all ??

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

fluke39
08-13-2003, 04:47 PM
i was kinda hoping it may have been possibly a typo and refered to bullets ricocheting off tarmac etc..

anyone tried it at all ??

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 04:55 PM
yep, we tried it...

i did the best ricochet, but it wasn't on purpose /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

i dropped my bomb on a parking area on a betonned base, at about 750 kph (me262A2)...

the bomb ricoched over the parking, continued over taxiway, over runway, over the second taxiway, over another parking, and finally exploded in a row of bomber that were all accross the base...

quite funny, better to hit something if you want to be sure of where your bombs are to explode... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:06 PM
i was able to skip a bomb i dropped from a P39 over the water it skipped like a stone. this is cool but i dont think that regular bombs can do this in real life. the british had to make special bombs to skip over the water to blow up dams. they were barrel shaped. seems a bit unrealist but cool nontheless.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:26 PM
Its realistic, the Brits developed the barrel shaped bomb in order to facilitate counter rotation. The bomb was actually spun backwards before it was dropped so it would skip much furter than a conventional bomb dropped in the same fashion. At least that's how I understood it.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:50 PM
One thing I did notice is they never fixed the bug where if you have a bomb delay set (no matter how small) the bomb's will not damage the ship. Skip bombing is so much harder with zero delay.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:10 PM
Well if you set a delay, wouldn't the bomb sink after hitting the ship and explode underwater? Don't see why the ship should be damaged that way.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

fluke39
08-13-2003, 07:14 PM
EmbarkChief wrote:
- Its realistic, the Brits developed the barrel shaped
- bomb in order to facilitate counter rotation. The
- bomb was actually spun backwards before it was
- dropped so it would skip much furter than a
- conventional bomb dropped in the same fashion. At
- least that's how I understood it.
-

And so it would "stick" to the dam as it rolled down it

also i have seen a few pictures of mitchells skip bombing( what i guess are normal) bombs into Japanese ships in the pacific

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:28 PM
AirBot wrote:
- Well if you set a delay, wouldn't the bomb sink
- after hitting the ship and explode underwater? Don't
- see why the ship should be damaged that way.
- Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you're wrong.

IIRC, when skip bombing the bomb bounces on the surface, hits the ship (like a big fence) and then sinks below the surface. The explosion under the ship sends shock waves that damages the hull.

Because water doesn't compress, explosions underwater send out shock waves which can do more damage than any "shrapnel" from the bomb/torpedo/depth charge. (Torpedoes are designed so the shock wave is focused towards the ship and thus do more damage than an equal amount of TNT exploded above the water line.)

Remember all those old WWII submarine movies? If the depth charge is sufficiently close, the sub would sink. It doesn't have to actually touch the sub. The same principle applies to fishing with hand grenades. One grenade and you get 20 fish, plus snakes and the odd turtle. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

With too long a delay and the skip bomb simply sinks out range. But a short delay would probably help avoid premature detonation, a very bad thing. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:31 PM
AirBot wrote:
- Well if you set a delay, wouldn't the bomb sink
- after hitting the ship and explode underwater? Don't
- see why the ship should be damaged that way.
- Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
-
-

Yep, youre wrong. Even though the bomb dosen't contact the ship it still creates a shockwave. That is why a destroyer dropping depthcharges had to move at full speed, the shockwavy would knock holes in the hull. Also, bombs with a very short delay can be used to sink a submarine. In real life anyway.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:33 PM
Oh, and yes, i did try. I was in an FW-190F-8 with an SC-500 and 4x SC-50. I dropped at about 700kmh [from dive] and cut power. I looked to my left and saw a bomb named "Marleene" or something flying formation with me! Just about then a pair of SC-50's kinda hit my wing...

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 03:41 PM
Well roll me in gravy and call me skippy, I guess I am wrong. Didn't know all that.
Oh well, happens to the best of us doesn't it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JV44Rall wrote:
- AirBot wrote:
-- Well if you set a delay, wouldn't the bomb sink
-- after hitting the ship and explode underwater? Don't
-- see why the ship should be damaged that way.
-- Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
-
- I think you're wrong.
-
- IIRC, when skip bombing the bomb bounces on the
- surface, hits the ship (like a big fence) and then
- sinks below the surface. The explosion under the
- ship sends shock waves that damages the hull.
-
- Because water doesn't compress, explosions
- underwater send out shock waves which can do more
- damage than any "shrapnel" from the
- bomb/torpedo/depth charge. (Torpedoes are designed
- so the shock wave is focused towards the ship and
- thus do more damage than an equal amount of TNT
- exploded above the water line.)
-
- Remember all those old WWII submarine movies? If
- the depth charge is sufficiently close, the sub
- would sink. It doesn't have to actually touch the
- sub. The same principle applies to fishing with
- hand grenades. One grenade and you get 20 fish,
- plus snakes and the odd turtle. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- With too long a delay and the skip bomb simply sinks
- out range. But a short delay would probably help
- avoid premature detonation, a very bad thing. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 04:13 PM
EmbarkChief wrote:
- One thing I did notice is they never fixed the bug
- where if you have a bomb delay set (no matter how
- small) the bomb's will not damage the ship.

Um... this does work.

I've got a .trk file with a P47 (for v1.0) where I do this.

I missed with most of my bombs, so usually they didn't damage the ship, but all of the ships were sunk with skip bombing with the bombs set on a 2 second delay.

The main thing is to get the bombs to hit the side of the ship. It seems that at that point, the bombs effectively penetrate the hull (you see them hit, but they do not come out the other side), are carried along by the ship and then explode when the fuse runs down.

I found it to work extremely well, provided you weren't killed by the AA first.

(Because of the AA accuracy and the desire to practice skip bombing, I'd set invulnerability and infinite ammo for the attempt).

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:07 PM
Aircraft using skip-bombing against ships set a delayed detonation so that the bomb would go off below the waterline and either rip the side out of the ship or break its back (i.e. keel). Unfortunately, you can not use delays when skip-bombing ships in IL-2. The bomb will strike harmlessly against the side of the ship with even a tiny delay. Doesn't really matter since the ships' damage models are extremely simple, but it sure would be nice to clear that blast at low-level without having to climb rapidly.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:14 PM
VOL_Jon wrote:
- Oh, and yes, i did try. I was in an FW-190F-8 with
- an SC-500 and 4x SC-50. I dropped at about 700kmh
- [from dive] and cut power. I looked to my left and
- saw a bomb named "Marleene" or something flying
- formation with me! Just about then a pair of
- SC-50's kinda hit my wing...


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Probably the bomb was called "Marlene", like Marlene Dietrich../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:19 PM
I think modern torpedos actually go a couple of feet below the target vessel then explode. Apparently from what I understand is that the pressure of the gasses and the heat actually turn some of the water to steam and pushes the rest of the water away causing a large air pocket under the hull and the ship cracks under its own weight?

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BM357_Raven
08-14-2003, 05:31 PM
Mmmm. interesting...

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:36 PM
you are kinda right late ww2 and modern subs do this they are degined to get right under the hull and kill it and when the torp explodes a uge pcoket of gas is created and sends out shock waves causeing lots of damage and the hull get s wraped fromthe pull of the water or somthing similar

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:57 PM
A.K.Davis wrote:
the ship or break its back (i.e. keel).
- Unfortunately, you can not use delays when
- skip-bombing ships in IL-2. The bomb will strike
- harmlessly against the side of the ship with even a
- tiny delay.

Does no one listen or read?

Skip bombing with a delay DOES IN FACT WORK in Forgotten Battles.

Proof, with a track file from FB with the P47 practicing this very thing. I had a 2 second delay set on my bombs:

<img src=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mirackyd/Images/P47skip/01.jpg>

Here we see the beginning of the run. The bombs are just coming off the rack of my P47. Note the time as 4:03

<img src=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mirackyd/Images/P47skip/02.jpg>

Bombs have skipped once (small splashes in the picture) and are about to impact the side of the ship. Note the time of 4:04

<img src=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mirackyd/Images/P47skip/03.jpg>

Bombs have impacted the side of the ship and are nowhere to be seen. The bomb immediately below the wing of my plane is one that I released as I crossed over the ship. Bombs impacted the side of the ship at 4:05

<img src=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mirackyd/Images/P47skip/04.jpg>

Another view about a half second later. The second set of bombs I dropped is visible falling clear of my plane (and the ship), but the original pair are now inside the ship, waiting 2 seconds for the timer to count down.

<img src=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mirackyd/Images/P47skip/05.jpg>

Time is now 4:07. The 2 second bomb delay has expired and the bombs go off. Note the "Enemy Ship: Destroyed" displayed on the screen.

<img src=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mirackyd/Images/P47skip/06.jpg>

In case any doubters remain, the final shot 5 seconds after bomb detonation, showing the ship clearly nose down and the deck awash as it goes under.

Skip bombing with delays works. It's not easy, but anyone who says it doesn't just hasn't managed to do it right.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:30 PM
What realism did you have it set at? I am wondering if this doesnt have something to do with it. I have yet to try skip bombing with a delay.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:35 PM
Shifty101 wrote:
- What realism did you have it set at? I am wondering
- if this doesnt have something to do with it. I have
- yet to try skip bombing with a delay.


Full real, with the exceptions of infinite ammo and invulnerability.

The purpose to the flight was to practice skip bombing (I'd never attempted it before), and it's not very effective to practice when you have to constantly restart the mission due to getting shot down 1km out or because you ran out of ammo.

Otherwise for all flights (non-bombing practice) I use full real and limited ammo.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:39 PM
Alright, I just noticed that you had infinite ammo and thought I would raise the question.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:50 PM
I experimented a lot with skip bombing before the patch, so I don't if anything has changed. Yes, you can occasionally sink a ship with a 2 second delay, but it rarely happens. The only reliable to do it is with a zero delay, but this will either destroy you if you try to zoom past the ship or make you a sitting target for AA as you try to climb clear. Two things need to change for naval missions to be more playable and realistic--reduced AA accuracy and near misses and underwater explosions should do hull damage.

Divebombing on ships also suffers all this. For some reason, I can bullseye tanks with no problem but hitting a huge slow ship is more difficult. You still have to set zero delay for any degree of reliability, but at least you have a chance fly clear when divebombing. With a delay, the bomb passes through the ship and explodes harmlessly underneath, which could not happen IRL. And even if it did, it would still sink the ship.

Ideally, I would like to see more complex damage models for ships if there's going to be a Med or Pacific sim. Often ships were taken out of action--not sunk but badly damaged enough to have to return to port. This should count for partial points. Turrets and AA should be able to be destroyed, again for AA or artillery points. And ships should be vulnerable to disabling damage, rendering their engines or rudders unusable. I realize this is too complex for FB, but for a later sim featuring a lot of naval combat, this is a must.



Message Edited on 08/14/0312:51PM by xenios

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 07:35 PM
There's an old Movie called "The Dam Busters", think I saw it some years ago on television.
And there's even a PC Game:
http://www.gamezone.com/gamesell/p20818.htm

Well, quite old, but interesting though.

Are there any dams in IL2? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif