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View Full Version : Unfair "Dot" Voting



VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 11:05 AM
I demand a recount....lol


I wanted to point out something. Review the following votes honored by Oleg.

Results (677 votes counted so far):

249 (37%) Keep the black dots!!
193 (29%) Leave the dots out of the game!
226 (33%) Maybe it is best for everybody to make the black dots an option in the realism settings.

Look closely,
249 Keep Black Dots
419 Dont keep Black Dots/Make it a Setting Option

If "Dont keep Black Dots" wasnt an option, where do you think those votes would go?

249 Keep Black Dots
419 Make it a Setting Option

Tally numbers look different now huh?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=3191061342&showpollresults=Y

If the black dots are removed, those that have low-end computers will suffer.

If the black dots stay, those that want realistic settings suffer.

If the dots option is available, servers can choose and players can fall in line to the servers that meet their needs.

Server Options is the fair choice.

The way the stats are now, the dots will be removed and those that want realistic settings suffer.

VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 11:05 AM
I demand a recount....lol


I wanted to point out something. Review the following votes honored by Oleg.

Results (677 votes counted so far):

249 (37%) Keep the black dots!!
193 (29%) Leave the dots out of the game!
226 (33%) Maybe it is best for everybody to make the black dots an option in the realism settings.

Look closely,
249 Keep Black Dots
419 Dont keep Black Dots/Make it a Setting Option

If "Dont keep Black Dots" wasnt an option, where do you think those votes would go?

249 Keep Black Dots
419 Make it a Setting Option

Tally numbers look different now huh?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=3191061342&showpollresults=Y

If the black dots are removed, those that have low-end computers will suffer.

If the black dots stay, those that want realistic settings suffer.

If the dots option is available, servers can choose and players can fall in line to the servers that meet their needs.

Server Options is the fair choice.

The way the stats are now, the dots will be removed and those that want realistic settings suffer.

BuzzU
12-18-2004, 11:31 AM
Your math has flaws. You have no idea how the votes would go with the group that voted for make it an option, if they didn't have that option to vote on. You can't assume they would all vote to leave out dots.

TAGERT.
12-18-2004, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VBF-83_Hawk:
I demand a recount....lol


I wanted to point out something. Review the following votes honored by Oleg.

Results (677 votes counted so far):

249 (37%) Keep the black dots!!
193 (29%) Leave the dots out of the game!
226 (33%) Maybe it is best for everybody to make the black dots an option in the realism settings.

Look closely,
249 Keep Black Dots
419 Dont keep Black Dots/Make it a Setting Option

If "Dont keep Black Dots" wasnt an option, where do you think those votes would go?

249 Keep Black Dots
419 Make it a Setting Option

Tally numbers look different now huh?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=3191061342&showpollresults=Y <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You SPIN on it is as bad as the one your acusing them of

VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 11:48 AM
Buzz that option is there, re-read

TAGERT.
12-18-2004, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VBF-83_Hawk:
Didnt accuse anyone of anything http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>so what part of YOU accusing THEM of bein UNFAIR do you not understand?

VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 11:56 AM
There are three options but four views.

1. Keep Dots
2. Dont Keep Dots
3. Make Dots an Option
a. Keep Dots/Make it an Option
b. Dont Keep/Make it an Option

The only choice I removed was the "Dont Keep". If "Dont Keep" is not an option, they would most likely vote, "Make it an Option" Thus resulting in the tally numbers

249 Keep Black Dots
419 Dont keep Black Dots/Make it a Setting Option

HOWEVER, to be fair it should be

1. Make Dots an Option
2. Dont Make Dots an Option
3. Keep Dots
4. Dont Keep Dots

** to explain the "Dont Keep/Make it an Option".
I dont want to keep the dots, however, to be fair for those that have low end computers, make it an option so some servers can host "Keep the Dots".

This would split both sides instead of splitting one side.

As it is the "Keep Dots/Make Dots Option plits votes vs Dont Keep Dots".

Weather_Man
12-18-2004, 11:58 AM
I'll take dots either way as long as I can see the labels. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

TAGERT.
12-18-2004, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VBF-83_Hawk:
"Unfair" was just the SMILLY to get you in here to see the "what if" I pointed out... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But as I pointed out, the title was not the only unfair thing in your post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VBF-83_Hawk:
bbllalahahahahahahahahahah <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Feel better?

Maj_Death
12-18-2004, 12:55 PM
Ugg, you guys can't count. There are 3 and only 3 options: Keep them, Remove them and make it an option. Making it an option is not a vote for or against the dots. It simply states that they should be an option in the realism panel much like the speedbar. FYI, I voted for them as an option in that poll but if I could only choose keep or remove them, I say keep them. This coming from possibly the biggest realism nazi on the forum.

VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 02:10 PM
I am not asking to change them to "Keep or Remove" only. Its actually the oposite.

Geeesh, reread. You guys are missing the point. I now I stink when it comes to explaining things but goodness.

NoBunny
12-18-2004, 02:15 PM
Being a Six Sigma analyst for a fortune 5 company - Hawk is dead on.

TAGERT.
12-18-2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoBunny:
Being a Six Sigma analyst for a fortune 5 company - Hawk is dead on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Six Sigma.. The *process* of killing creative thought.

TAGERT.
12-18-2004, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VBF-83_Hawk:
I am not asking to change them to "Keep or Remove" only. Its actually the oposite.

Geeesh, reread. You guys are missing the point. I now I stink when it comes to explaining things but goodness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I NOW I stink at it too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

carguy_
12-18-2004, 02:41 PM
I`m glad someone as freakish for realism as Maj_Death would rather have 3.01 dots.

I didn`t think there will be a bigger flaw of 3.02bm than new dots but sound/stutter problems make it a complete FAILURE.

DOWN WITH 3.02!!!!

VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 03:13 PM
Are you saying that I am in the *process* of killing creative thought? Dangit, stop confusing me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

VBF-83_Hawk
12-18-2004, 03:29 PM
If the black dots are removed, those that have low-end computers will suffer.

If the black dots stay, those that want realistic settings suffer.

If the dots option is available, servers can choose and players can fall in line to the servers that meet their needs.

Server Options is the fair choice.

The way the stats are now, the dots will be removed and those that want realistic settings suffer.

NoBunny
12-18-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoBunny:
Being a Six Sigma analyst for a fortune 5 company - Hawk is dead on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Six Sigma.. The *process* of killing creative thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True (sometimes) - it depends on how and when it's used. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BuzzU
12-18-2004, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj_Death:
Ugg, you guys can't count. There are 3 and only 3 options: Keep them, Remove them and make it an option. Making it an option is not a vote for or against the dots. It simply states that they should be an option in the realism panel much like the speedbar. FYI, I voted for them as an option in that poll but if I could only choose keep or remove them, I say keep them. This coming from possibly the biggest realism nazi on the forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I said, and i'm sticking to it too. I just didn't feel like arguing about it.

Tully__
12-18-2004, 06:14 PM
Three levels of liar:

1. Liar
2. #### liar
3. Statistician

fordfan25
12-18-2004, 06:46 PM
hay i didnt vote http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but if i had id have voted to keep them and seeing as my vote counts as 100 normal votes hay.

LEXX_Luthor
12-18-2004, 07:09 PM
Hawk:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

If the black dots are removed, those that have low-end computers will suffer.

If the black dots stay, those that want realistic settings suffer.

If the dots option is available, servers can choose and players can fall in line to the servers that meet their needs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hawk forgot to mention high end computer simmers who want realistic settings. They need 3.01 dots when running 1280x960 or 1600x1200.

High res is the Future of flight sims, and my ATI~9200 can now give good fps at 1280x960. Many here are running 400$ UltraPro video cards at low res 1024x768 just to get Perfect and ~very~ high levels of anisotropic filtering and antialiasing.

BuzzU
12-18-2004, 07:31 PM
He also forgot about us types with crappy eyesight. The 3.01 dots were the only ones I could see.

NoBunny
12-18-2004, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Three levels of liar:

1. Liar
2. #### liar
3. Statistician <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have me confused with Accountant - numbers don't lie.

Tully__
12-18-2004, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoBunny:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Three levels of liar:

1. Liar
2. #### liar
3. Statistician <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have me confused with Accountant - numbers don't lie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I work with statistics. Numbers don't lie, but misinterpreted statistics frequently do misinform. Whether the misinterpretation is deliberate or not (when it occurs) is another issue.

NoBunny
12-18-2004, 07:50 PM
I agree - but I like to think i'm above that fray. Also - sometimes I think too much stock is taken into consideration in stats rather then common sense.

VBF-83_Hawk
12-19-2004, 10:18 AM
Hey Lex, why do you need black dots in that setting? Is it because they are smaller?

I use 1024x768x32 and black dots 20 miles away looks like a fly on my monitor. The "fly" never gets smaller nor does it ever get larger. It just all of a sudden starts shooting. There is a split second there when it grows two extra pixels on each side and starts shooting. It is very unrealistic.

In real life "seeing" is based on many veriables but number one is "weather related visability" and varies in geographical location. "Haze" is the number one factor. Haze varies in altitude between ground level up to about 8,000 feet and greatly henders ones ability to spot anything.

I spent the vast amount of my 4,000 hours of flight time at and below 2,000 feet inside an MOA (Military Operations Area). On a typical summer time day a C-130 can be spotted at about six miles above the horizon and two miles (pending OD green or Grey cammo) below the horizon. UH-60 Blackhawks and UH-1 Hueys can sneek in to about one mile below the horizon. Faster fighters (flown below me at 2,000 feet) are almost undetectable below the horizon at 250 mph and higher in speed. Seldom did I ever spot one before he was a 1/2 from me....below the horizon. Once spotted, it took a lot of concentration to maintain contact passed two- three miles. However, above the horizon I could maintain contact up to three miles. When flying in this area, I use to tell the fire tower operator to keep me informed on thier location. He could see them much better than I could since they were above the horizon for him.

I flew in this area every day for five years and IL2/PF low vis dots are realistic.

I even recall Pappy Boyington discribbing, while flying bomber escort at about 15,000 feet, seeing dust from the departing fighters....)but not seeing the fighters themselves). They would take off and fly low level and leave the area and return when the bombing was over.

Anything above the horizon appears as a black dot. As it gets closer, certain distance, the black dot turns into an object that is cammo and is much harder to see the closer it gets...below the horizon..........

I could keep on but I know it wont do any good.

Thus I urge Oleg to make the "black" dot vis settings an settings option in future patches and updates.

Zapatistas
12-19-2004, 11:33 AM
I couldnt agree more with Hawk.
The dot issue didnt become an issue until an option was given. However, now that it has been tasted, an option should be the alternative to the 3.01 'dot'. The old 3.01 dot are very much unrealistic and makes this game take one step closer to the 'Arcade' shelf. And i believe it shouldn't be dicided by the people who post/vote in these forums.
(no disrespect).
Difine the word 'simulation'.
I think the Maddox team are qualified enough to decide how their product should be.

Many people in these forums are like....hmmmm how should i put it?
Offer them an Inch and they will take a Mile.

VMF223_Smitty
12-19-2004, 11:42 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

BuzzU
12-19-2004, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zapatistas:
I couldnt agree more with Hawk.
The dot issue didnt become an issue until an option was given. However, now that it has been tasted, an option should be the alternative to the 3.01 'dot'. The old 3.01 dot are very much unrealistic and makes this game take one step closer to the 'Arcade' shelf. And i believe it shouldn't be dicided by the people who post/vote in these forums.
(no disrespect).
Difine the word 'simulation'.
I think the Maddox team are qualified enough to decide how their product should be.

Many people in these forums are like....hmmmm how should i put it?
Offer them an Inch and they will take a Mile. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you think we're deciding? Oleg put the dots in, and took them out. We can make a thousand threads, and take a thousand polls, and it will still be Oleg's decision.

If you don't think so. Try and get Oleg to change the FW view.

VBF-83_Hawk
12-20-2004, 08:00 AM
Oh yeah, the above post I forgot to say that the typical visability in the summer is at or less than 10 miles ..."WITH HAZE". The difference between 10 miles with haze and 10 miles without haze is like night a day but its still considered 10 miles visability!!!

The early morning fog in Pacific Fighters is more like haze to me!


Above the haze, at whatever altitude, its a whole nother world. Ten million times eisier to spot things, **** near imposible to see the ground looking out or foward. In this game, trying to attack a ship, or anything for that matter, in a SBD or TBM is **** near imposible.

"Hey theres a Big Black Dot...&lt;checks "S" key&gt;....its jonnyM in an SBD, LETS GET'EM!.....20 minuites later....THATS ONE FAST SBD-Two grids later AND ONE 37MM SHELL FROM UBBER Ki-84&lt;C&gt;-!!!BOOM!!!

SIMULATION vs ARCADE GAME

.

Brock.Landers
12-20-2004, 08:56 AM
Now I'm confused http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

For the record- I vote for option 8 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

carguy_
12-20-2004, 04:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zapatistas:
The old 3.01 dot are very much unrealistic and makes this game take one step closer to the 'Arcade' shelf <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The above line denies your whole statement.