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nearmiss
12-22-2004, 09:21 AM
Interesting how difficult it is to keep players interested in combat flight sims.

Oleg has maintained all the control. The whole burden to keep this community viable has been...self imposed. Now that the sim has reached a level of popularity Oleg was probably trying to achieve will he be able to put enough effort into it?

There is a constant clamouring for "new stuff" from every sim community I've ever been involved. This has been right up Oleg's alley since the whole IL2 series is just an embellishment of the the original IL2. By embellishment I mean a slightly improved software with a host of graphic toys, which were time intensive to supply, yet didn't require changes in the core programming.

I think this ole cow is about gone dry. LOL

Loving the sim ain't gonna change that. THis sim needs a transfusion of good update core programming.

Oleg needs to open up the sim and let the third party guys get with it. He needs to quit trying to pump off all the graphic add-ons as something new and provide solid improvements in the core of his software products. The third party guys will constantly tweak the community interest if license is given.

There is something to learn from MSFT. I'd be willing to bet that CFS2 has sold more than the combined IL2-FB-AEP-PF sims. MSFT just opened up the sim kept license on the core programming and the interest in the sim was never anything MSFT did beyond the initial release. There has never been a patch release on CFS2.

CFS2 Forums at Sim-Outlhouse ALIVE AND WELL (http://www.cfcforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6)

Now Oleg has excuses...The BOB needs to be worked on and still he's trying to maintain interest in the Il2 series. The 3.02 patch has dragged on and on. All I've read for the past few months is "poor me" kinda stuff.


I could care less if Oleg opens up the IL2 series, that's his call we all know. I think based on my experience Opening the sim to some third party development might be the Adrenalin rush this sim needs in light of the huge effort and energy Oleg indicates about producing the BOB.

I'm just gonna hate it if the BOB doesn't include all the great aircraft we already have. We need an extensible war theatre like we've been enjoying, even if it has been a slow process.

The Rowan's BOB isn't that bad, and the licensing has been bought by an interested developer. In fact, there are plans in process to greatly improve the sim. Third party devs have been improving the Rowan's BOB steadily for free over the past few years, since the source code as released. There is still a great deal of interest in the old sim, just because of third party devs flow of improvements in the sim.

There is also another BOB to be released as well by another developer. I'm not saying any developers will be able to do a better job than Oleg, but I do think the market for BOB will be diminished.

-----------------

I think Oleg should concentrate on continuing to develop and extensible WW2 series, find a way around all his licensing issues to keep his product alive and well for years to come. The IL2 series could be so much more than just "a game".

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 09:21 AM
Interesting how difficult it is to keep players interested in combat flight sims.

Oleg has maintained all the control. The whole burden to keep this community viable has been...self imposed. Now that the sim has reached a level of popularity Oleg was probably trying to achieve will he be able to put enough effort into it?

There is a constant clamouring for "new stuff" from every sim community I've ever been involved. This has been right up Oleg's alley since the whole IL2 series is just an embellishment of the the original IL2. By embellishment I mean a slightly improved software with a host of graphic toys, which were time intensive to supply, yet didn't require changes in the core programming.

I think this ole cow is about gone dry. LOL

Loving the sim ain't gonna change that. THis sim needs a transfusion of good update core programming.

Oleg needs to open up the sim and let the third party guys get with it. He needs to quit trying to pump off all the graphic add-ons as something new and provide solid improvements in the core of his software products. The third party guys will constantly tweak the community interest if license is given.

There is something to learn from MSFT. I'd be willing to bet that CFS2 has sold more than the combined IL2-FB-AEP-PF sims. MSFT just opened up the sim kept license on the core programming and the interest in the sim was never anything MSFT did beyond the initial release. There has never been a patch release on CFS2.

CFS2 Forums at Sim-Outlhouse ALIVE AND WELL (http://www.cfcforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6)

Now Oleg has excuses...The BOB needs to be worked on and still he's trying to maintain interest in the Il2 series. The 3.02 patch has dragged on and on. All I've read for the past few months is "poor me" kinda stuff.


I could care less if Oleg opens up the IL2 series, that's his call we all know. I think based on my experience Opening the sim to some third party development might be the Adrenalin rush this sim needs in light of the huge effort and energy Oleg indicates about producing the BOB.

I'm just gonna hate it if the BOB doesn't include all the great aircraft we already have. We need an extensible war theatre like we've been enjoying, even if it has been a slow process.

The Rowan's BOB isn't that bad, and the licensing has been bought by an interested developer. In fact, there are plans in process to greatly improve the sim. Third party devs have been improving the Rowan's BOB steadily for free over the past few years, since the source code as released. There is still a great deal of interest in the old sim, just because of third party devs flow of improvements in the sim.

There is also another BOB to be released as well by another developer. I'm not saying any developers will be able to do a better job than Oleg, but I do think the market for BOB will be diminished.

-----------------

I think Oleg should concentrate on continuing to develop and extensible WW2 series, find a way around all his licensing issues to keep his product alive and well for years to come. The IL2 series could be so much more than just "a game".

initjust
12-22-2004, 12:07 PM
Oh man, now you've done it!

This is pure heresy! How dare you suggest that Oleg could learn anything from MS!!!!!

Won't be long before this thing gets locked for sure.

VMF223_Smitty
12-22-2004, 12:12 PM
nearmiss missed by a mile

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 12:18 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Gollleeee</span>

I remember the good ole days when I enthusiastically went to the CFS2 forums. Everyday was new...there would be some new posting about a recently released map area, terrain, aircraft, effects, etc.

I'd go to the referred site and DL a 45MB file of new airbases, or terrains, etc...it was awesome.

The mission builder in CFS2 let you use and build exciting missions with real immersion.

Sure the CFS2 AI were lousy (awful,etc), but the 3rd party devs were top-notch and most of the DL stuff was great...and there was tons of it. CFS2 was never boring...ever.

The IL2 series is better now that we have all the current flight models (IL2-FB-AEP-PF), but the IL2 mission builder is STILL a world class DOG. A DOG that has kept this sim in the dull, static mission category for Offline players.

If the CFS2 was improved graphically, and some real attention was made to improve the AI it would be the front runner "TODAY" for Offline Combat flight simmers.

initjust
12-22-2004, 12:24 PM
"CFS2 was never boring...ever."

Did you mean "is" not "was"?

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by initjust:
"CFS2 was never boring...ever."

Did you mean "is" not "was"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I quit CFS2 over 2-1/2 years ago. Up to the time I quit it was never boring..

x6BL_Brando
12-22-2004, 12:49 PM
Don't jump on me, but doesn't opening up the code make the game more vulnerable to hacks and cheats?

F19_Ob
12-22-2004, 12:58 PM
There is plenty to explore in pf for years ahead.
online only a fraction of planesets are used and the same goes for missions. Many planes and combinations that existed are hardly used.
For example; many of the allied planes that came with pf are possible to use in north and south europe.
The mission part is absolutely not exhausted and there are so many interesting combinations of places on maps aswell as objects to use.

Boring is a strange word to use when there is so much left untouched.

My opinion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

9th_Bloodfist
12-22-2004, 01:08 PM
Part of the fun of cfs2 was downloading the different 3rd party aircraft. I think when I finally quit playing I had over a hundred different planes I could choose from.

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
There is plenty to explore in pf for years ahead.
online only a fraction of planesets are used and the same goes for missions. Many planes and combinations that existed are hardly used.
For example; many of the allied planes that came with pf are possible to use in north and south europe.
The mission part is absolutely not exhausted and there are so many interesting combinations of places on maps aswell as objects to use.

Boring is a strange word to use when there is so much left untouched.

My opinion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The boring part is you can only build static missions. There are no interactive tools in the FMB to make it immersive. If all you want to do is go to missions that are pre-set to ground, sea or air combat it's fine.

Everything is basically...set in stone by the mission builder.

Another boring part is how tedious and difficult it is to build missions. Whenever you start trying to time engagements it gets to be a world class pain in the plane.

Weather_Man
12-22-2004, 01:35 PM
No matter how many planes, scenery or whatever else you can add to CFS2, the game still blows.

I reinstalled it a few weeks before PF came out, added some nice 1% planes and thought it would be a whole new experience since the first time I played CFS2 when I never explored any addons. Nope. Not even close to what the original Il2 offered. Still sucky damage modeling, still sucky flight models, and still no fun.

For this reason, I do not think opening up the code makes for a better game. A better game makes for a better game. I am quite content to let Oleg manage my addons.

LilHorse
12-22-2004, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
No matter how many planes, scenery or whatever else you can add to CFS2, the game still blows.

I reinstalled it a few weeks before PF came out, added some nice 1% planes and thought it would be a whole new experience since the first time I played CFS2 when I never explored any addons. Nope. Not even close to what the original Il2 offered. Still sucky damage modeling, still sucky flight models, and still no fun.

For this reason, I do not think opening up the code makes for a better game. A better game makes for a better game. I am quite content to let Oleg manage my addons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally, I was hoping sombody would pipe up. Yeah, not only does opening up the code make it ripe territory for cheat/hack a$$holes but then makes for a virtual "Tower Of Babel" when it comes to online play. So many permutations of these planes with those graphic updates blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I'm sorry, I had CFS2 too. And for it's time it was good (certainly the best of the CFS series). But the original IL2 so totally blows it away. CFS2 ballistics were ****, and DM and gravity was borked, on and on. Call me a fanboy (fanboi http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) if you want. Please see the thread in GD regarding that. But, really, enough of this CFS jive.

crazyivan1970
12-22-2004, 02:00 PM
Apples and oranges... major miss...nearmiss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
No matter how many planes, scenery or whatever else you can add to CFS2, the game still blows.

I reinstalled it a few weeks before PF came out, added some nice 1% planes and thought it would be a whole new experience since the first time I played CFS2 when I never explored any addons. Nope. Not even close to what the original Il2 offered. Still sucky damage modeling, still sucky flight models, and still no fun.

For this reason, I do not think opening up the code makes for a better game. A better game makes for a better game. I am quite content to let Oleg manage my addons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've made good points, but the mission builder in CFS2 still provides the tools to get more out of the sim than IL2 FMB IN EVERY RESPECT.

As far as Oleg managing addons, that's fine too. I've just been reading what he says and he's got too many excuses. I believe Oleg is overloaded...I believe the man.

Forget the CFS2, the Strike Fighters P1 also allows tremendous latitude for 3rd party developers. I'm just not "too" into jet sims, because I like the up close and personal flying required by WW2 type sims. THe Strike fighters does have potential even for a WW2 sim, because of it's open architecture. Then again it doesn't have much in the way of a mission builder software either.

The BOB is around the corner so to speak, but 2005 is upon us and news is spotty. Next thing we'll read is 2006 or something along those lines. Oleg, has gotta cash a check in the mean time. So, the Il2 series has to provide the bread and butter. I don't get the idea that UbiSoft is a big participant in providing much in the way of advances for new development. I'm thinking any advances coming from UbiSoft are based on completed code they can rely upon to be part of a viable product.

-----------

If you take your ole CFS2 and really apply the Mission Builder tool you'll find the sim can still be a lot of fun "Offline" even if it's not truly in a class with the IL2 series with respect to realism and flight modeling.

In fact, you can take the ole Jane's WW2 fighters and enjoy it equally as CFS2. The misison builder in it is a competent tool as well. I'm not has high on Jane's WW2 fighters as CFS2 because of the same problems. Then of course the Jane's WW2 fighters is only fought in the Ardennes, which is a pretty small war theatre.

What we really need is an IL2 series with a Mission Builder like Jane's WW2 Fighters or CFS2. Offline and Online play would be exponentially more immersive and exciting.

-------------

I'm still very much into the IL2 series, but I can tell you straight off...I'd be a hundred fold more interested if it had a competent mission builder. I hate the campaign generators, because they put you into so many world class stupid situations. None of the campaign generator things are worth the work devoted to them IMO.

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Apples and oranges... major miss...nearmiss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

crazyIvan1970:

We're jes' discussin' here.

I just wish Oleg would address the Il2 series with a good mission builder like in CFS2 or Jane's WW2 Fighters.

That would a major step in the right direction for all players.

I give Oleg credit for everything being better than CFS2 and Jane's WW2 fighters, except for the Mission Builder. The IL2 series FMB is a miserable failure, and the worst part...it's never been improved regardless of comments by anyone on these boards in my 2+ years on these boards.

crazyivan1970
12-22-2004, 02:15 PM
Is it really that bad?

LEXX_Luthor
12-22-2004, 05:04 PM
nearmiss:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sure the CFS2 AI were lousy (awful,etc),... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, this CFS2 wasn't really open sim ~~&gt; can't change AI coding. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Been discovering more with our own FMB the last few weeks, and there are AI features I never knew existed. Ask if you want (open new thread).

In writing a program to generate randomized FMB missions, Oleg's maps do make it difficult at times to talk to the maps, but its his first combat flight sim, and I *know* a small flight sim Developer who personally ~loves~ WW2 aviation will learn from developing his first flight sim.

I guess 3SCF was Microsoft's 3rd combat flight sim. So, what happened? Even Microsoft had nothing to learn from Microsoft. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

nearmiss
12-22-2004, 06:11 PM
I guess I just had too much time on my hands today. LOL --- evidenced by this thread.

It's been pretty well concluded by most it's not in the cards for any improvements for the FMB from 1C:Maddox.

Let's just hope the BOB is different and Oleg decides to make a viable FMB for it.

Athosd
12-22-2004, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I guess I just had too much time on my hands today. LOL --- evidenced by this thread.

It's been pretty well concluded by most it's not in the cards for any improvements for the FMB from 1C:Maddox.

Let's just hope the BOB is different and Oleg decides to make a viable FMB for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A better FMB would indeed be a great addition. The best building tool I've had the pleasure of getting lost in was for Operation Flashpoint - very little you couldn't make that game do from the editor.

However I believe that FMB is firmly lodged in the core code of the IL2 series and thus don't expect to see any major changes (there have actually been a number of minor ones) until BoB.

Like many others here I'm with Oleg on the decision to keep the code closed. This sim doesn't have to be all things to all people - those that want open source can find it in a number of other games.

Salute

Athos

LEXX_Luthor
12-22-2004, 09:15 PM
I'm not so sure.

Never noticed this until a week ago...you can set AI bomber flights to ESCORT a leading flight and easily build complex formations with absolutely NO concern for waypoint matching or timing. However for ~very~ large formations I am having problems with collisions but am working on it. The new static ship Test Runways are the most important new Feature yet, although I'm not sure we are meant to play with it, but we need it desperately.

Also, since I last tried, AI fighters carrying bombs now don't drop bombs to attack other aircraft. It all depends on their loadout.

Had IL~4 flight ESCORTED by a bomb loaded Fw~190 flight. The Fw~190s stayed right in formation with the bombers. Even when enemy Bf~109s attacked both the IL~4 and Fws, the Fws did not try to evade until fired upon. This is Good News.