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p1ngu666
01-08-2006, 02:00 PM
top gear on google video http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3198662249757043000 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

its not shown in america, as amusingly they got fed up translating it. (dont translate it for anywhere else like holand and russia for example http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

Unknown-Pilot
01-08-2006, 02:02 PM
Very entertaining show, but decidedly biased against, and clueless about, American Cars - among other things. (such as the fact that chevy hasn't made engines for decades now. The LS1/6 and LS2/7 are NOT chevy engines. They are GM Power Train engines.)

Chuck_Older
01-08-2006, 02:08 PM
I don't even bother to d/l video on this PC. What's the video show?

p1ngu666
01-08-2006, 02:11 PM
best car show on tv http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

neural_dream
01-08-2006, 02:21 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Incomparable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Is that thing legal? I don't know how google video works, but a hole episode http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif?


real R/C Ford in Top Gear ->
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6173640262431418060&q=top+gear

goshikisen
01-08-2006, 02:30 PM
If you like the show take a look at http://www.finalgear.com. You can get every episode by way of bittorrent. I prefer Fifth Gear myself... the content in Top Gear is great but the constant and unrelenting "comedy" of the hosts can get a bit tiresome. Besides... Jeremy Clarkson cut up one of my favourite cars - Morgan.

Dash_C.
01-08-2006, 02:45 PM
I saw this yesterday, some really amazing stuff.

Airmail109
01-08-2006, 03:41 PM
2 words....Cars Suck...

JSG72
01-08-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
2 words....Cars Suck...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Good greif! Someone Who walks Flys Floats and submerges everywhere or maybees uses a personal transporter.

"Top Gear" Is a very popular programme here in the UK. and actually won an Award on American TV.
It's is so popular due to the shows premise that it shows a completely Biased opinion of the Automotve Industries. Latest product and reviews it "As we would like" .
As opposed to Cowtowing to manufacturers wishes.
Do you know of this Concept?

However1! I have to say that the age old view that All American product is somewhat "Not up to keeping with the Modern World" is somewhat overplayed.( Jeez! I Love American Muscle)
Perhaps this is why you's choose? Not to watch/ Are ignorant of the fact/Are being censored.

God bless. THE FREE WORLD!

JG52_Helgstrand
01-08-2006, 04:51 PM
Great show thanx for sharing

Badsight.
01-08-2006, 07:18 PM
being a bike fan & a traffic hater , i have to totally agree with Airmail101

but jeremy clarkson does do a good job of presenting that show

he owns a Ford-GT , so is hardly a US hater

he even told the truth about the (English) McLaren F1 , a car that gets dribbled over by every test you can find but he rubbished its rear end grip (Enzo's far superior in handeling)

they do go on over car styling a lot tho

carguy_
01-09-2006, 09:16 AM
The TV show is unlike any other though they could get rid of smashing old cars.Those are a very good material for eastern consumers.Sometimes they break very fine cars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

It is also heavily biased in favor of British cars.Those guys don`t like French and Germans but it`s all part of the Brit humor heheh

I don`t think that they ever made a good overall opinion about any US supercar.They get excited over Italian cars and say that even if German or Japanese supercars can be better than the Brits have,they do not have a soul - they`re just machines,nothing more.


Ofcourse it`s all matter of opinion,but if one really loves Aston Martin and grims bout Porsche makes me LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

SeaNorris
01-09-2006, 09:28 AM
Top Gear is the best car show on British TV, it totally pwns all other car shows and has the best presenters I think. Sometimes the ''races'' againsts boats and that seem all to ''set up'' though.

RocketDog
01-09-2006, 09:33 AM
Don't worry, Carguy - being rude about almost everything is part of Jeremy Clarkson's appeal. It's all done very tounge-in-cheek, which may not come over clearly if you aren't very familiar with UK culture.

Clarkson is also well known for hating all BMWs and doesn't like most US cars because they weren't designed for our narrow, bumpy and winding roads. A Ford F150 is rather out of its element dodging combine harvesters in Wiltshire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

bolillo_loco
01-09-2006, 09:38 AM
The "dramatic reconstruction" of Marcos Ltd. closing up shop was priceless!

Chuck_Older
01-09-2006, 09:48 AM
smashing...up...old...cars... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I know guys who would give their left nut for a pair of perfect 1970 GS fenders...but people still smash up old cars for TV shows?!?!

Von_Peebles
01-09-2006, 10:44 AM
I do not think jermey clarkson has ever done one tv show without bashing america 5-6 times and american machinery. For instance his last show with the lotus elise vs apache 64.

The bugatti looks like a 2 engined dodge neon. Its made by vw but he insists its a all british made machine?

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 11:05 AM
he owns a Ford GT , so is hardly an US basher

p1ngu666
01-09-2006, 11:32 AM
clarkson owns a ford GT, and a merc clk. he loved the golfs (that where good) and he loved the bmw 5m ?

alot of car designers and key workers are british

besides, theres not much british car industry left http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Unknown-Pilot
01-09-2006, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
clarkson owns a ford GT

No, he doesn't. And they do clearly hate all US cars and are clueless about them. They desperately search for ANYTHING to gripe about. In side by sides, they let the very same things in other cars slide.

See the one with the C6? The T-56 is a smooth shifting tranny. Hammond complained that he could barely shift. Talk about BS. Of course, the Stig didn't have any problems shifting.

And nevermind that it turned in an impressive time, JC wasn't gonna hear it. All he cared about was leaf springs and urethane.

But then again, that's not unlike the DOHC crowd. They don't care about performance, only that it has 4 cams, even if it just makes an engine too big and too heavy for no reason.

(I loved the line about the Viper vs the Marcos - yeah, let's see them test a C6 Z06. They won't do that because that beast is trouncing Lambos and Ferarris at the Nurburgring. Side note - that Marcos was decent looking, but it looked like a TVR. And since it was the same price, I'd rather have a TVR)


Anyway - no, he doesn't own a GT.

Firstly it should be mentioned that they like Ford in general. However, Ford Europe is nothing like US Ford. Nothing at all. They actually produce decent things over there. (unlike the trash they make here)

And also that Clarkson has stated that he views Ferrari as a "scaled down version of god".

Combine those 2 with the fact that something as sweet looking as the GT-40 was able to beat Ferrari at LeMans while JC was an impressionable boy, and well, the desire for the new GT is explained. End of story.

However, he dumped his. That's right, he did buy one, but he does NOT own one - anymore.

Quality issues were plagueing him and he was forced to give up his dream car because he couldn't live with it. That rather soured him on US cars further too.

neural_dream
01-09-2006, 11:50 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif UBI Zoo is well-deserved http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
Anyway - no, he doesn't own a GT. i dont like how they waffle on about looks all the time either - but he totally is the owner of that blue Ford GT , its his personal vehicle

& remember his drive of the Macca F1 ? that car got nothing but praise from all quarters & represents the pinnacle (at the time) of brit engineering - he rubbished its high speed handeling & rear end grip . i think hes biased against low tech - not US cars in general

RocketDog
01-09-2006, 12:06 PM
Unkown-Pilot needs to keep up to date.

Clarkson does indeed own a blue GT40. A recent episode of Top Gear featured him driving it through France.

His main objection to US vehicles is that the majority of them are not much use on European roads (just as most hard-suspension european sports cars would be hopeless on US interstates), and that build quality is poor compared to the better european marques (Audi, BMW etc).

Cheers,

RocketDog.

p1ngu666
01-09-2006, 12:15 PM
its funded by the bbc, so doesnt rely on adverts, hence they canbe honest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Unknown-Pilot
01-09-2006, 12:32 PM
Tit for tat - or tude for tude? lol

RocketDog needs to keep up to date.

The Ford GT40 and Ford GT are 2 different cars.

US cars can and do handle well. 3rd Gen F-Bodies (namely the GTA) were excellent handling cars. 4th Gen F-Bodies with the proper shocks added (factory screwed the pooch on this one) are even better. (even with crappy factory DeCarbons and not pushing the car, nor exceeding 140, an amatuer driver took his 4th Gen aroung the 'ring in 8:30)

Corvettes have always been good, especially C4, C5, and C6. The C6 Z06 ran a 7:43 around the 'ring. Beating everything short of the Porsche Carrera GT (blowing by loads of other Porsches, Lambos and Ferraris along the way).

There's a video taken from inside a race prepped Elise chasing a street C5 around the 'ring. He only gets close once during the entire lap, but was never able to get past. This is during the corners. Once they got to the back straight the C5 was just *gone*. lol

And then there's Vipers as well. Pulling over a G in stock trim.

Their complaints about build quality are flat out ridiculous anyway, no matter how you slice it.

I love the show, but for it's entertainment value only. Any time Clarkson is involved, you know German = bad, Ferrari = god, and English = good. And any time any of them get near a US car, you know it's gonna get nit-picked once they realise they can't legitimately slam it. (like the CTS-V test where, after JC got done laughing at the idea that a US car could handle like a Euro sedan, he proceeded to trounce the Stig who was in an Audi V8 - and was shocked to do so, so he moved on to blowing little things out of proportion)



So - After he asked Ford for his money back, he got another GT? A little searching seems to indicate that. If so, I stand corrected. However, he *did* ask for his money back over (what would now seem to be) his 1st one.

neural_dream
01-09-2006, 12:34 PM
I probably sound ignorant, but what American cars are good to drive in Europe? I don't know anyone who does. Maybe a chrysler or two.


Btw, next we can fight over what horses are better. American, European or Asian? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Viva la UBI Zoo.

p1ngu666
01-09-2006, 12:56 PM
tbh, nearly 90% of american ive seen recently bulit are horrid to look at, horrible horrible things, and then u look at the cars from 60s and 70s, and there fantastic looking. but the last 20 odd years, its like, hey bob, that cars too nice lookin, model it after the inbred kid of a redneck, who made ddt and agent orange.

ploughman
01-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
I probably sound ignorant, but what American cars are good to drive in Europe? I don't know anyone who does. Maybe a chrysler or two.


Btw, next we can fight over what horses are better. American, European or Asian? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Viva la UBI Zoo.


Funnily enough I was at B & Q on Sunday, getting wet in the car park because their fire alarm was having a paddy, when someone drove by in a hard top '66 type Mustang. It didn't look any bigger than most of the other cars/Chelsea tractors littering the scenery. It did look a shedload sexier though.

Mind you, I couldn't see a DB9 at the time.

Some bloke in my village is tooling around in a Bentely Continental GT. Now that's a car, and it's a car in the American sense of the word, big, powerful, & designed for going from a to b especially if there's a nice bit of straight and level asphalt betwix them.

***Edit for more piffle***

I lived in Savannah for a while in the early 1990s and was going to pick up my guardian's old ride he'd had in storage since Jimmy Carter got elected, a mint condition 1974 (or was it 1973? Last year of the convertible cougar for ages anyway) Mercury Cougar convertible in dark green, as my college pimp mobile (this was before they became 'parent cars,' long before). Literally the month I arrived an old mate of his made an offer he couldn't refuse. Or so he told me. I don't doubt he flogged it to a mate rather than have some pinhead new driver (me) stick it in a ditch. That car was sweet, it'd just get stuck between the hedges where I live now though. It had a 351 Cleveland engine, apparrently.

Check it out. (BTW this is red not green).

http://www.rocketlinecal.com/rocketline06/images/2700/1973-Mercury-Cougar-45.jpg

RocketDog
01-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
So - After he asked Ford for his money back, he got another GT? A little searching seems to indicate that. If so, I stand corrected. However, he *did* ask for his money back over (what would now seem to be) his 1st one.

As far as I know, he gave it back and made a fuss. Ford UK finally fixed it and now has the car again. The first part of the story is here: http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1677058,00.html

And yep - it's the GT - my mix up.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
tbh, nearly 90% of american ive seen recently bulit are horrid to look at, horrible horrible things, and then u look at the cars from 60s and 70s, and there fantastic looking. but the last 20 odd years, its like, hey bob, that cars too nice lookin, model it after the inbred kid of a redneck, who made ddt and agent orange.

Ah, you mean when American cars looked this good?!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/4659/68f539800nb.jpg

I am quite thankful for this new American car.

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/8900/06mustangv66mj.jpg

I have fallen in love and she shall be purchased in the 1st Quarter of 2006. I'd love to get a GT, but it just doesn't seem practical at this time, so I'm going with the V6 Pony Package, less that ugly side stripe and most likely in Charcoal Gray or Wind Veil Blue Metallic for 2006.

IMHO, she's the coolest-looking american car, second only to the Corvette.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5406/mustangshelby20068is.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4031/steedastang8gi.jpg

p1ngu666
01-09-2006, 01:29 PM
yeah, but the orignal mustang looked better.

new mustang has a D: face. looks sad.

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
yeah, but the orignal mustang looked better.

new mustang has a D: face. looks sad.

My first car was going to be a 1966 Mustang square-back, but dad put the kabosh on that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I love what they've done with the new Mustang. It has an awesome retro look and reminds me of a 1967 Fastback model. I don't think she looks sad, just determined. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I love how they look from the back!

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6387/fordmustanggt2005back14wr.jpg

p1ngu666
01-09-2006, 01:38 PM
looks like a rounded brick dude :\

http://www.mustangdreams.com/FBeachrear.jpg

http://www.mustangdreams.com/dave_fb.jpg

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 01:39 PM
the chevelle ? now that has bloat in every one of its curves , the challenger or the charger on the other hand . . . . .

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
looks like a rounded brick dude :\


Well, I don't think they can make it look too much more like the original, but as for rounded, it's one of the least-rounded American cars these days. She's got pretty lines and is quite sleek-looking in person. So, PFFFFFT. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight, you can have every Cuda, Challenger and Charger they ever made, even though I do like some early Mopars, if I can have just one 1969 Yenko SC or C.O.P.O 427 Chevelle.

I love the curves of her and have always had a thing for slightly buxom women, um, I mean cars. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The early Mopars had cool lines, a bit stoic at times for my tastes, but mechanically they were far from GM. The hemi was one of the worst engines to keep tuned and the cr*p reliability of Mopar was what almost ran that company out of business before Lee Iacocca saved them.

Unknown-Pilot
01-09-2006, 02:43 PM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/Unknown-Pilot/67fb40.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/Unknown-Pilot/71ta23.jpg

http://grimreaper.250free.com/98transam7.jpg

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_driving3.gif

neural_dream
01-09-2006, 02:46 PM
Is any of these cars good for Europe?

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_driving3.gif

Ooh, nice TAs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I just read that they are bringing back the Camaro. I wonder if the Firebird can't be far behind. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It just goes to show you what copycats car makers are. Only because of the awesome success Ford is having with their retro Mustang, do we see the other American companies now moving in the same direction.

New Camaro Announced (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060109/bs_nm/autos_show_camaro_dc;_ylt=AlkLEwWSzo2bvdsmPMcPTFOs 0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-)

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Is any of these cars good for Europe?

I'm not too keen on European standards as opposed to American, as far as emissions and environmental concerns (RoHS), but I would expect that it is not cheap to import American cars to Europe. I'd also bet that the most wanted cars in Europe would be the Corvettes and Vipers, not the run-of-the-mill production cars.

Unknown-Pilot
01-09-2006, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_driving3.gif

Ooh, nice TAs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I just read that they are bringing back the Camaro. I wonder if the Firebird can't be far behind. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It just goes to show you what copycats car makers are. Only because of the awesome success Ford is having with their retro Mustang, do we see the other American companies now moving in the same direction.

New Camaro Announced (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060109/bs_nm/autos_show_camaro_dc;_ylt=AlkLEwWSzo2bvdsmPMcPTFOs 0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That 67 pic was problematic for some reason, but I fixed it. (no T/A in 67 or 68 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

As far as I'm concerned the camaro can rot. The Firebird and Trans Am were the only ones that were ever worth a damn from that line, except for some the '68 and '69 RS and SS.

As for copy cats, yes definitely - The runaway success of the '64 Mustang is the reason for the Camaro. The reason for the Firebird though, is that John Delorian wanted to make a 2 seat sports car and GMHC (GM High Command lol) said "you can't compete with Corvette - make something off of the new F platform Chevy is about to release". To which he replied "ok...fine, but I'm putting a 400 in it". This was a no-no at GM. Strict limits for engine sizes based on car size. But he got away with it by making it an option. And the Firebird was a second quicker than the Mustang, and 2 seconds quicker than the camaro (and better looking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif )

But let's not forget that the Charger, 442, Superbird, SuperBee, Chevelle..... etc, practically all the Muscle Cars, were copying off of Pontiac's runaway success with the GTO.

However, as for the demise and return - it's all political. GM wanted to get out of the agreement with Quebec and tried to kill hte sales of the F-Body. Eventually they had to just flat out lie about it not selling enough, and closed the plant (St Therese). However they were still unable to use the names, so the lines had to stay dead for awhile.

This was all old management at GM, and had Lutz and crew come sooner, they might never have passed on.

They only considered bringing it back because of strong attachment inside the company, and public outcry. However, Putz hates Pontiac and is doing everything he can to ruin it. (<- long story)

Unknown-Pilot
01-09-2006, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
Is any of these cars good for Europe?

I'm not too keen on European standards as opposed to American, as far as emissions and environmental concerns (RoHS), but I would expect that it is not cheap to import American cars to Europe. I'd also bet that the most wanted cars in Europe would be the Corvettes and Vipers, not the run-of-the-mill production cars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he meant more than environmental, and was partly fishing too.

However, any car is as "good for Europe" as any other. Clarkson wanted to buy a Hummer. And let's not forget the specs of the Veyron - 12 minutes to drain the tank flat out (think they said it was a hundred litres too). And that's a big car too.

neural_dream
01-09-2006, 04:22 PM
No, not at all. I'm never fishing.

I meant in our roads. Not in terms of the environment.
Of non-European cars, I see many Asian ones, but almost no American one.

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_driving3.gif

Ooh, nice TAs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I just read that they are bringing back the Camaro. I wonder if the Firebird can't be far behind. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It just goes to show you what copycats car makers are. Only because of the awesome success Ford is having with their retro Mustang, do we see the other American companies now moving in the same direction.

New Camaro Announced (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060109/bs_nm/autos_show_camaro_dc;_ylt=AlkLEwWSzo2bvdsmPMcPTFOs 0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That 67 pic was problematic for some reason, but I fixed it. (no T/A in 67 or 68 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

As far as I'm concerned the camaro can rot. The Firebird and Trans Am were the only ones that were ever worth a damn from that line, except for some the '68 and '69 RS and SS.

As for copy cats, yes definitely - The runaway success of the '64 Mustang is the reason for the Camaro. The reason for the Firebird though, is that John Delorian wanted to make a 2 seat sports car and GMHC (GM High Command lol) said "you can't compete with Corvette - make something off of the new F platform Chevy is about to release". To which he replied "ok...fine, but I'm putting a 400 in it". This was a no-no at GM. Strict limits for engine sizes based on car size. But he got away with it by making it an option. And the Firebird was a second quicker than the Mustang, and 2 seconds quicker than the camaro (and better looking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif )

But let's not forget that the Charger, 442, Superbird, SuperBee, Chevelle..... etc, practically all the Muscle Cars, were copying off of Pontiac's runaway success with the GTO.

However, as for the demise and return - it's all political. GM wanted to get out of the agreement with Quebec and tried to kill hte sales of the F-Body. Eventually they had to just flat out lie about it not selling enough, and closed the plant (St Therese). However they were still unable to use the names, so the lines had to stay dead for awhile.

This was all old management at GM, and had Lutz and crew come sooner, they might never have passed on.

They only considered bringing it back because of strong attachment inside the company, and public outcry. However, Putz hates Pontiac and is doing everything he can to ruin it. (<- long story) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copy about the early Firebird, only saw the 2nd two first time through this thread. I figured you'd sort out the other Red X I saw. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Well, considering what became of the Camaro/Firebird line through the 80's and 90's., I was thankful to see the model go away. Camaro and Firebird ceased to be two cars during that time and lost their individualism of the early days, IMO.

Also, which Firebirds and Camaros are you comparing? There were several models of each and if you compare small blocks, the Firebird could not touch the 1969 Camaro with the DZ-302. However, I shant get into a Camaro vs. Firebird debate as I'm a Chevelle fan, not a Camaro fan. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ah, the old Chevy vs. Pontiac debate. It's as old as the cars themselves. Many on each side, both claiming they are the best, but it all boils down to personal preferences. I'm sure the speed crown has gone back and forth throughout the years, but I still lean towards Chevy lines and Rally wheels than Pontiac pointed snouts and wire wheels.

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 06:13 PM
ever seen the Aussie Charger ? would run circles around all the US V8 iron in the corners (mebe not the Cobras - but they were English now wern't they http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
ever seen the Aussie Charger ? would run circles around all the US V8 iron in the corners (mebe not the Cobras - but they were English now wern't they http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Hmmm, found this quote on a 1971 Valiant Charger R/T Hemi...

"Performance was about that of Ford's 351 V-8 Falcon GTHO. Handling was "exceptional", possibly due to the light engine"

Valiant Chargers (http://www.valiant.org/charger.html)

(edit: Ah, reading closer you meant more racing than quarter-mile. My mistake. However, aren't you confusing the NZ Chargers? They were impressive.)

More from the above link:

"Why were Chrysler Chargers so successful on New Zealand racing circuits when they had a somewhat mediocre track record in their native Australia? Jim Little said that the short wheelbase Chargers with their light, powerful Hemi engines were ideally suited to the tight NZ circuits as opposed to the larger, more flowing circuits in Australia. While the 351 V-8 Ford Falcon GTHO dominated the long, fast track at Bathurst, the Chargers were in their element around the tight circuits in New Zealand. Leo Leonard contributed the speed of his E49 to all the development they put into the earlier E38. I might add that Leo was also a superb driver who had a happy knack of getting the very best out of any car he drove.

The Chargers dominance in the B&H 500 has been contributed to the excellent performance provided by that marvelous Hemi 6 engine, good handling and legendary reliability. There were many occasions where the Chargers just kept on going when other makes literally fell apart during this grueling event which has been described as one of the toughest long distance events in Pacific region.

Another perhaps decisive contributing factor to Chrysler's dominance in NZ could be absence of the powerful GM and Ford racing teams. Although Todd motors did sponsor Leo Leonard in his E49, this was a pittance compared to the big budget GM and Ford teams that existed in Australia. In NZ there was a much more level playing field."

I'll have to read more to understand their dominanace a little closer. Seems strange that a car that performed that well on the NZ racing circuit wasn't spread out a little more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Hmmm, a little more down the page, I see a Drifter. Is that what Mel Gibson and his family were driving around in the first Mad Max? I could have sworn it was just some sort of futuristically-modeled orange Pinto. Seeing that picture, I'm not too far off. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3336/drifter7qf.jpg

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 07:36 PM
the car in Mad Max was the Ford Falcon XA coupe

http://xs63.xs.to/pics/06022/v8XAcoupeRF.jpg

but this is the Aussie Valient Charger , could do the 1/4 mile in 14.7s - fastest aussie made car up till the early 1990s

ran with the 265 hemi inline 6 - eventually got fitted with chrysler V8s

http://xs62.xs.to/pics/06012/jeffxl04.jpg

http://xs62.xs.to/pics/06012/jeffxl02.jpg

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
the car in Mad Max was the Ford Falcon XA coupe

http://xs63.xs.to/pics/06022/v8XAcoupeRF.jpg

Not that car, the family car.

Mad Max Family Car (http://www.madmaxmovies.com/cars/madmax/panelvan/index.html)

I see it's not a Drifter, but a modified 1975 Holden HJ Sandman. Wow, as many butt-ugly cars down under as has been here in the states...Edsels and AMC Pacers being the first to come to mind for the US. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Nice Charger pics. I squirrelled them away in my car pics folder. Be sure.

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
As for copy cats, yes definitely - The runaway success of the '64 Mustang is the reason for the Camaro.

And the 2005 Mustang has again sparked an upcoming trend in the American car industry. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Unknown-Pilot
01-09-2006, 08:40 PM
They've always been as different, or as similar prior to the 3rd gen as after it.

The Pontiacs have always been faster (at the absolute top of the line) with some exception years here and there.

They've also done much more in the way of aero - 2nd, and 3rd gen Firebirds were plainly superior to camaros in the aero dept. Particularly the 3rd gens. When someone wanted to hit 300mph at Bonneville in a stock body he chose the '88 T/A. The sole reasoning was aerodynamics. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

4th Gens rock too. Tell me that WS6 looks anything like a camaro. lol It's not cleaner aerodynamically anymore, because it's got such a large, functional wing and those huge, functional intakes, but it's still equal.

Frame, engine, drive train.... that doesn't matter when it comes to distinguishing cars. At least from GM. What matters is the looks, and optioning. The camaro is an econo-box. Always has been. I'll never forget the time I had my '88 GTA (black, hard top) in the shop (where I worked) for an oil change and had an '88 IROC-Z right next to it on the next lift. Perfect opportunity for a side by side of the 2 top of the line models. The camaro looked like a base model - the interior, the guages, the stereo, the key, the shifter, everything about it was cheap. While my car had stereo controls on the wheel, a Blaupunkt stereo system (made for GM), it had a VATS key, 6 way power seat with power lumbar support.... only options that year were 5.0 w/T5, T-Tops, and digital gauges. None of which were on mine.

It's like my 02. Only options are manual vs auto, and CD-Changer or not. I have the manual and no CD-changer. (Still pissed about being forced to take T-Tops though)

Yes, 3rd Gen T/As rocked. Especially the GTAs and 89 Anniversary (GNX engine in a lighter, great handling car - quickest, most balanced T/A ever until the LS1 WS6s).

I want to get another GTA, and an LT1 4th Gen. As well as a 70 like that white one, maybe a '70 Formula as well, and a '67 or '68.

Not that I like them or anything....... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

'Vette first though. Get my WS6 paid off by June of 07, then I can start stockpiling cash to add a C3, C4, or C5 to the collection, depending on what I find for what price with what timing. lol

ImpStarDuece
01-09-2006, 08:51 PM
Still, that Bugatti is a little ridiclous. Puting a 1000 hp in something that doesn't fly is probably a mite overpowered, don't you think?

ElAurens
01-09-2006, 09:06 PM
I really wanted to like the new Mustang. Even to the point of almost going to the dealer, till I found out that Ford decided to not offer it with independant rear suspension.

I'm sorry, but a car with oxcart suspension makes no sense in the 21st. century.

I'm very happy with my '03 Civic SI though.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
I really wanted to like the new Mustang. Even to the point of almost going to the dealer, till I found out that Ford decided to not offer it with independant rear suspension.

I'm sorry, but a car with oxcart suspension makes no sense in the 21st. century.

I'm very happy with my '03 Civic SI though.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hear ya. At first, I was in the market for a used 2001ish Accord V6 Coupe. I saw the new Mustang and although the outdated suspension situation is as you say, I just have this pull towards that car, that I haven't had towards a car since the Chevelle.

It's not as nimble as a Civic SI, but she sure does look good. And with a stick, she'll go good enough. I'm not getting her for performance as much just looks this time around. My muscle car and ticket days are over, thankfully. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
Lots of awesome things about Firebirds.

For the non-Firebird/Camaro-loving person, they got to the point where there were so many of them in the 80's - 90's, that there were SO many of them, was my only point. lol

I see quite a few less these days, even less it seems than just because they stopped making them. They churned out quite a few of that body style Camaro/Firebird.

tenmmike
01-09-2006, 10:30 PM
look at this ya homos the new challenger
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/tenmmike/spy-head-on.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/tenmmike/spy-challenger-front.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/tenmmike/spy-rear.jpg

Peckens
01-09-2006, 10:52 PM
i prefer chevy trucks over all, cars are useless to me

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 11:09 PM
Not a homo, but that Challenger is schweet!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

And also proves that retro-styling American Muscle Cars are on their way back.

Although, the shots you posted of the concept car are freakin' cool as h*e*l*l, the production version is sharp, too.

Hmmmm....Mustang for two years....trade-in 2008 for a Challenger. Oh my.....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

tjaika1910
01-10-2006, 02:43 AM
A reason that american cars is not popular here, is only partly the bad reputation (which they earned in the late 70- and 80ties) Engine volume and horsepower is highly taxed which makes american car a lot more expensive than their competion. A cheapo pickup with a V8 could easily cost more than a nice Mercedes here. And now more than 40% of new cars in Europe are diesels, making modern efficient diesel important to acces the market.

American sportscar with oldfashioned automatic and supersoft suspension is considered a joke, but the ones imported had a more european handling. Where I live there quite a few people are devoted to classic american cars, a relative of mine has a 100% mint Cadillac Coupe 60. There is also devotees for muscle cars (not the supersoft ones though)

The most sold car here I live is Volkswagen and Toyota (bit boring but very reliable and good) Volvos and Mercedeses are also very common, the old ones still going strong.

stathem
01-10-2006, 03:10 AM
Can you believe what they are selling as Chevys over here in the UK;

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/

It's embarrassing. I almost p*ssed meself when I went into the dealers; I was brought up watching UK stock cars with 454 cu in motors.

btw, as for American cars out-handling British ones; I'll take a 25 year old Mk 2 RS1800 Escort over the Devil's Staircase (Tregaron to Abergwesyn) and you can take any Yank car you want; and I bet I'll do it faster.

That's if you can get it to fit.

Redwulf__26
01-10-2006, 03:49 AM
Clarkson did a deal with Ford to get the GT 40. He's never bought a car in his proffesional life. Plus what he says on TV is not what he actualy thinks. Top Gear is more of a pantomime than a serious car show.

PS
Apparently Chevy engines make good ships anchours.

neural_dream
01-10-2006, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by tjaika1910:
A reason that american cars is not popular here, is only partly the bad reputation (which they earned in the late 70- and 80ties) Engine volume and horsepower is highly taxed which makes american car a lot more expensive than their competion. A cheapo pickup with a V8 could easily cost more than a nice Mercedes here. And now more than 40% of new cars in Europe are diesels, making modern efficient diesel important to acces the market.

American sportscar with oldfashioned automatic and supersoft suspension is considered a joke, but the ones imported had a more european handling. Where I live there quite a few people are devoted to classic american cars, a relative of mine has a 100% mint Cadillac Coupe 60. There is also devotees for muscle cars (not the supersoft ones though)

The most sold car here I live is Volkswagen and Toyota (bit boring but very reliable and good) Volvos and Mercedeses are also very common, the old ones still going strong.
Thanks for answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

ElAurens
01-10-2006, 05:39 AM
That "Challenger" weighs in at 4100 pounds.

What a friggin joke.

RocketDog
01-10-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tjaika1910:
A reason that american cars is not popular here,
<snip>
.
Thanks for answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the biggest differences between the US and european markets are that:

- Fuel is much more expensive here (in the UK I pay ~ US$ 1.6 per litre of diesel, so it costs me ~ US$ 90 to fill my car's tank).
- Emission standards are (I believe) rather stricter in Europe and that can be a problem for large engines.
- Our roads in cities usually predate motor vehicles and so can be very narrow.
- Smaller countries means shorter travel distances.
- Higher population densities mean that the road surfaces can degreade quickly from heavy wear and so suspension has to be able to cope with huge bumps.
- Our country roads can be very meandering and narrow. And have sheep on them. Particularly near Tregaron.

...all of which favours smaller, stiffer cars than the US market. Last summer I visited New Mexico and actually appreciated cruise control for the first time.

The only US cars I can think of that sell in the UK are things like the Chrysler Voyager (?) MPV and odd things like the Neon. You can buy Hummers etc, but you would spend an awful lot of time trying to wedge one down our city streets and I can't imagine it would be much fun.

On top of the differences in market requirements are very different aesthetic traditions. Most top-end "normal" european cars are now quite minimalist in styling compared to the nearest US equivalent. For example, compare an Audi RS4 against some of the pictures of US cars above.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

neural_dream
01-10-2006, 06:48 AM
For comparison some of the most popular cars used in Europe (not my favorite or the best or anything, but I'm used to seeing):

Audi TT
http://www.audi.co.uk/images/newcars/models/tt/coupe/mainbottom.jpg

Jaguar S-Type
http://www.jaguar.co.uk/uk/en/vehicles/s-type/gallery/photos_27F8212F-1C00-40DC-B584-C83EA94802E5_214x452.jpg

Opel/Vauxhall Vectra
http://vauxhall.co.uk/gallery/images/Vectra/exterior/Club/VX_VEC_06059.jpg

Toyota Avensis
http://toyota.images.free.fr/images/japon/toyota/2004_avensis_d4d-180_1.jpg

Mercedes CLK
http://www.myautoworld.com/autos/mercedes/mercedes-2006-CLK_DTM_AMG/94068205A4066.jpg

Mini Cooper S convertible
http://www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/top10/hippest.vehicles/05.Mini.Cooper.S.Convertible.f3-4.500.jpg

Smart
http://www.mysmart.ru/models/nightrun/smart-fortwo-nightrun-4-big.jpg

Fiat Panda
http://www.caradisiac.com/media/images/le_mag/mag187/fiat_panda_1.jpg

Peugeot 307
http://www.peugeot.co.uk/ppp/PPPWEBUK/Showroom/Range/VP/307CC.jpg

Renault Megane Dynamique
http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/@images/renault/renault-megane.jpg

Golf 2.0 GTI
http://www.danielrued.com/fotoalbum/autostadt-wolfsburg/27.jpg

Quite different that those in the States.

Unknown-Pilot
01-10-2006, 07:40 AM
Europe's emmision standards, stricter than Califorinias? I suppose that could be, but I have my doubts.

As for the proprosed race by a poster near the end of the last page - sounds like something chosen specifically for physical size. Hardly any measure of anything. We'd need a good track. Something that had LOTS of corners, but not just turns, we need them all, switch backs, decreasing radius turns, banked turns, and large steady state turns. And also a bunch of straights. Afterall, the measure of a performance car is how well it turns (grip), how well it transitions (slalom/switchbacks), how well it brakes, how well it accelerates, and how fast it can go.

Oh, I got it! The Nürburgring! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You'd give me any American car I'd want, eh? Does that count specailty cars, or just stuff from the "Big 3"? Well, I'll just go with the latter, and take the 2007 C6 Z06.

If we stay in stock trim, I hope you have several hundred thousand pounds on hand, because only the Porsche Carrera GT was able to eek by the monster 'Vette around that track. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Personally - I think the C6 is ugly and they flat out ruined the styling of the Corvette. But(!), since we are talkin' performance........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

http://www.corvettesbyrickdaniel.com/FIRST-C6-Z06-2.JPG

SlickStick
01-10-2006, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
That "Challenger" weighs in at 4100 pounds.

What a friggin joke.

LOL, I didn't read that far. Which one the concept or the production version? I'll have to read back at Allpar.com (http://www.allpar.com). Good thing they shall be dropping a nice, fat hemi under the hood.



The Hemi has 425 hp, 420 lb-ft of torque, and a six-speed manual transmission. So geared, with its 4,100 pound weight, it can do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds (with 20 inch wheels on front and 21 inch wheels on back), and runs the quarter mile in 13 seconds flat; top speed is 174 mph (limited by wind resistance), while gas mileage is estimated at 14 city, 20 highway, very good compared with the original Challenger. Brakes are more effective than the original - stopping from 60 mph can be done in 133 feet.

The new Chargers do not appeal to me, but this Challenger is the kind of retro look that is going to attract allot of the people who missed out on the American Muscle Car era.

I remember eye-balling a 1971 Challenger in that same orange back in my youth, contemplating buying it, but I chose the Chevelle instead.

Good points, RocketDog. I was thinking about some of those reasons last night, as I also looked at European cars in America at the moment and what american companies offer the european market, as far as cars go. (See above Chevrolet UK link).

As you've indicated, different markets demand different strategies. If you look at the bulk of European cars in the USA, they are mainly the higher-end variety. Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW, Jaguar, Saab..etc. Higher-priced, high-performing and good reliability, plus innovative engineering. Quite appealing.

You just don't see many Renaults, Peugeots, Fiats...etc here in the states anymore.

Unknown-Pilot
01-10-2006, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
The new Chargers do not appeal to me,

They aren't even Chargers really. Chargers are NOT sedans. What was done to that nameplate is quite simply, disgusting.

Hope the Challenger runs as good as it looks. Definitely interesting. However, the CF stripe has got to go. CF as decoration is about as rice as one can get.

SlickStick
01-10-2006, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
They aren't even Chargers really.

I heard that! Chrysler 300 pimped a bit, hehe.

stathem
01-10-2006, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
Europe's emmision standards, stricter than Califorinias? I suppose that could be, but I have my doubts.

As for the proprosed race by a poster near the end of the last page - sounds like something chosen specifically for physical size. Hardly any measure of anything. We'd need a good track. Something that had LOTS of corners, but not just turns, we need them all, switch backs, decreasing radius turns, banked turns, and large steady state turns. And also a bunch of straights. Afterall, the measure of a performance car is how well it turns (grip), how well it transitions (slalom/switchbacks), how well it brakes, how well it accelerates, and how fast it can go.

Oh, I got it! The Nürburgring! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You'd give me any American car I'd want, eh? Does that count specailty cars, or just stuff from the "Big 3"? Well, I'll just go with the latter, and take the 2007 C6 Z06.

If we stay in stock trim, I hope you have several hundred thousand pounds on hand, because only the Porsche Carrera GT was able to eek by the monster 'Vette around that track. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Personally - I think the C6 is ugly and they flat out ruined the styling of the Corvette. But(!), since we are talkin' performance........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

http://www.corvettesbyrickdaniel.com/FIRST-C6-Z06-2.JPG

No,no,no, if you want to pick a poxy race track then you have to take a 25yr Yank car vs the best that Europe has to offer currently.

Come to Wales where men are men and sheep are worried. The Abergwesyn pass has all of those things you mentioned, well, apart from the banked corners - it has them, they're just banked the wrong way. Makes the 'ring look like a drive to the shops.


If it handles, then it should be able to handle anything, no? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Grue_
01-10-2006, 09:47 AM
This community would come to blows arguing about dishwashers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

At least the presenters of top gear are allowed to air an honest opinion regardless of who it offends. US litigation would have rendered Clarkson poor and jobless years ago.

Everyone knows that the best vehicle for British roads is a White Ford Transit Van (preferably neglected and covered in dirt), especially in London where the traffic just melts in your path. Only a berk would start a row with one.

carguy_
01-10-2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
As for the proprosed race by a poster near the end of the last page - sounds like something chosen specifically for physical size. Hardly any measure of anything. We'd need a good track. Something that had LOTS of corners, but not just turns, we need them all, switch backs, decreasing radius turns, banked turns, and large steady state turns. And also a bunch of straights. Afterall, the measure of a performance car is how well it turns (grip), how well it transitions (slalom/switchbacks), how well it brakes, how well it accelerates, and how fast it can go.

Oh, I got it! The Nürburgring! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Sounds like a culture thing.Nurdburing is probably one of the fastest race tracks around.Corners aren`t small,they are wide and they have a silly big radius.Nurdburing has like 4 or 5 big small radius turns.Not only that - a friggin mighty loooooooong straight.
It is a tracks specifically designed for cars that don`t turn good....mainly US cars.

Tell me bout Ungarn,Budapest(Hungaroring) F1 race track.Take your Vette against my normal 911 carrera 2 and smell the fumes.

THAT`s what Europe supercars are all about,dude!
They are super fast,they can do small runs in no time,they have no mass transfer,they hold to the the line like the E company.They are almost 100% controllable for a good amateur,let alone a proffesional.That said,I want to exclude Mercedes cars from Europe supercars list.Mercedes aims specifially at those who like big engines,big d!ck look and 300km/h on a straight....silly.

Like I said though,it`s the cultural thing.

Chuck_Older
01-10-2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Grue_:
At least the presenters of top gear are allowed to air an honest opinion regardless of who it offends. US litigation would have rendered Clarkson poor and jobless years ago.

.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Everyone knows so much about the US!

He wouldn't be brought to court, he'd simply be fired. Come on, now

p1ngu666
01-10-2006, 10:30 AM
true about white vans http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Unknown-Pilot
01-10-2006, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
As for the proprosed race by a poster near the end of the last page - sounds like something chosen specifically for physical size. Hardly any measure of anything. We'd need a good track. Something that had LOTS of corners, but not just turns, we need them all, switch backs, decreasing radius turns, banked turns, and large steady state turns. And also a bunch of straights. Afterall, the measure of a performance car is how well it turns (grip), how well it transitions (slalom/switchbacks), how well it brakes, how well it accelerates, and how fast it can go.

Oh, I got it! The Nürburgring! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Sounds like a culture thing.Nurdburing is probably one of the fastest race tracks around.Corners aren`t small,they are wide and they have a silly big radius.Nurdburing has like 4 or 5 big small radius turns.Not only that - a friggin mighty loooooooong straight.
It is a tracks specifically designed for cars that don`t turn good....mainly US cars.

Tell me bout Ungarn,Budapest(Hungaroring) F1 race track.Take your Vette against my normal 911 carrera 2 and smell the fumes.

THAT`s what Europe supercars are all about,dude!
They are super fast,they can do small runs in no time,they have no mass transfer,they hold to the the line like the E company.They are almost 100% controllable for a good amateur,let alone a proffesional.That said,I want to exclude Mercedes cars from Europe supercars list.Mercedes aims specifially at those who like big engines,big d!ck look and 300km/h on a straight....silly.

Like I said though,it`s the cultural thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<Ace Ventura>Really....</Ace Ventura>

heh, ok... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Let's see then, Porsche 911 Carrera S vs C6 Z06 -

2006 Porsche Carrera S Coupe -
Curb weight - 3,131lbs
Weight distribution - 38/62
Power - 355hp / 295tq
Power to weight -
lbs per HP - 8.8
lbs / ft/lb - 10.6
Rev limit - Can't find
Price - $81,400
Tire width - 235mm
0-60 - 4.1
60-0 - 106'
1/4 mile - 12.6
Slalom - 70.10
Lateral G - .97
Top speed - 182



2006 C6 Z06 -
Curb weight - 3,130lbs
Weight distribution - 50/50
Power - 505hp / 470tq
Power to weight -
lbs per HP - 6.2
lbs / ft/lb - 6.7
Rev limit - 7000
Price - $65,000
Tire width - F - 325mm | R - 345mm
0-60 - 3.7
60-0 - 111.3'
1/4 mile - 11.7
Slalom - 69.40
Lateral G - 1.04
Top speed - 198


Ok, so your rear weight bias allows for better transitions, thus the *slightly* faster slalom speed, and your braking is a hair better. But how much? .7mph in the slalom and 5.3' from 60.

You lose everywhere else.

Oh and you pay $16,400 more to do it too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Best of all was this part -

they have no mass transfer

It has every bit as much mass as the 'Vette. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (and much less tire to work with, hence the lower lateral G score)


Sure, you can sit there and calculate and try to find the perfect track and car combination that will somehow allow you to say Euro cars are superior, but the fact remains, real tracks have straights as well as turns. (and faster tracks are better)

That means a performance car needs to accelerate and have a high top end, not just be nimble. If that were the case we could be talking about Solstices and Miatas. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Porsches, Lambos, Ferraris, Ford GTs, Astons, TVRs, you name it, they all fall before the Z06. And at several times the price at that. (that's gotta hurt lol)


Oh, and -

Nurdburing has like 4 or 5 big small radius turns.Not only that - a friggin mighty loooooooong straight.
It is a tracks specifically designed for cars that don`t turn good....mainly US cars.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Whatever you're drinkin' might be a wee bit strong. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lol

sgilewicz
01-10-2006, 12:02 PM
Carguy,
I bought my 95 Corvette over 11 years ago and, while I love it to death, I agree with some of your observations. My brother in-law owns a 2000 911 and it is definitely a more refined car than mine. It is also an easier car to drive especially at low speeds and on bumpy roads where my Vette has somewhat of a truck like feel to it. The interior of the Porsche is also of a higher quality than what GM produced for mine. I will say, however, that the Vette gets very high grades when the speed approaches or exceeds 60 mph (100 km/h). The faster the Corvette goes the more solid the handling gets right up to red line which is approximately 160 mph/240 km/h(don't ask me how I know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif). Unlike many American cars, this eleven year old can take take obscenely winding turns without the slightest bit of tire slippage. In addition the torque band is amazing and makes standing starts and highway passes a thing of joy! If I knew how to post photos I would load one here but I've never been able to figure it out on this site http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Despite all that, I would agree that my Vette is not an ideal car for Europe. It's low speed handling, premium gasoline requirements, stiff clutch and long shifter throw would not seem to endear it with the typical European. The driver position is also strange and Jag XKE drivers are probably best able to identify with this (long nose and driver sitting on the rear axle). The newer Vettes are supposedly much superior to mine in this regard but I haven't driven one so I am not qualified to comment. Porsches and Vettes, like 109s and P-47s, are very different but each has it's own unique qualities that endear them to us http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

stathem
01-10-2006, 12:13 PM
Actually I love Corvettes, but,

how many World Rally championships has it won?

That's a much greater measure of how a car handles (or was, before they were allowed to practise) than the race track.

http://www.rallygallery.com/guest/dad/int_mickola2.jpg

p1ngu666
01-10-2006, 12:21 PM
id rather have a aston martin, because its a)utterly beatiful b)can pretend tobe james bond http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif c)will hopefully atttract the girls like bond does http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

even it doesnt, u can still rub urself against it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

still be fast enuff for me, im not a fast driver http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
01-10-2006, 12:23 PM
think there allowed to go over the course a few times (2-3) at 30mph or less, not sure of current recce rules tho.

SlickStick
01-10-2006, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
...c)will hopefully atttract the girls like bond does http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

even it doesnt, u can still rub urself against it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

LOL! Stop man, you're crackin' me up here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I can see it now...

"The name's 666. p1ngu666."

RocketDog
01-10-2006, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
Porsches, Lambos, Ferraris, Ford GTs, Astons, TVRs, you name it, they all fall before the Z06. And at several times the price at that. (that's gotta hurt lol)

Good grief, man - the only people who choose supercars on the basis of performance are those who aren't in a position to buy one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

PS - I actually drive an Audi.

FiAW_Vaijy
08-21-2006, 03:11 PM
What do you say my friends... certainly not beatiful but quite cool , right?
http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/iso/img84583.jpg
http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/iso/img84573.jpg

http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/iso/img84582.jpg



This Edsel was in the same garage next to mine some 15 years ago. I just noticed few days ago that it's got a new skin :-) Location is in Helsinki Finland for this pearl of the Pacific.

Grue_
08-21-2006, 03:48 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

I prefer something like this AC I saw at the Woodchurch airshow last year

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/flyingscampi/IMG_7446.jpg

Snow_Wolf_
08-21-2006, 03:50 PM
My answer to the drifting problem lol

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/06/ztune05_04_1024.jpg

Blutarski2004
08-21-2006, 06:58 PM
For what it's worth, I've owned (I'm an American) the following cars


1968 BMW 1600
Around town and around corners hands down the best of the lot. Manageable at the limit even for an idiot like me behind the wheel.

1973 Datun 240Z
Sexy (then), absolutely mechanically reliable, absolutely zero handling transition.

1973 BMW Bavaria
A wonderful highway car, an under-rated Munich classic IMO.

1967 Corvette L71
Loud, hot, nice ride at any speed over 80mph, terrible ride at any speed less than 80mph. Best around town feature - you could leave it in 3rd and drive it like a clutch-o-matic. A completely unrealistic automobile, but the biggest adrenalin rush I've ever experienced in a driver's seat (not really, but that's another story).

1982 Toyota Celica Supra
A mechanically reliable bowl of oatmeal. If you had a weak heart, this was car for you.

1987 BMW 535is
A great all-around road car for short haul, long haul, any distance. I always smiled when I hopped in. In some ways I preferred its handling (it was lowered about 3/4-inch) to the M5.

1992 BMW M5
A great all-around road car. Doing 500 highway miles in those seats was NO problem, and those miles went very fast with decent fuel mileage. But a bit too luxurious for my taste.


But, after shying away from American cars for 30 years, I just might take a look around the next time. Those C6 Vettes are very tempting.


Some commentary on those American high performance motors of the 60's. Treat the official HP ratings with care; they used to play a lot of rating games to keep the insurance companies in the dark. My L71 was rated at 435hp on 11.5:1 compression; the L88 version of the same block with 12.5:1 compression and a hotter cam was rated at 430hp by Chevrolet. The real number was around 500hp at the flywheel.

In any case, there are a lot of modern motors putting out equal or better horsepower the those gigantic 750 lb engines. What really separates those old motors from today's was their torque. 400-500 lb-ft was not unusual.

They look pretty archaic now when I leaf throught my old manuals, but back in the day the best of them were pretty hot machinery.


Wiping a tear from his eye,